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Thread: That Thing, You Can Only Talk About If You've Finished the Series

  1. #601
    Traveler barneyrfd is on a distinguished road

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    Default Not Necessarily Just About Roland

    Quote Originally Posted by Daeris View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    For my part I don't think Roland makes loops... but spirals. It's not my idea but I am absolutely convinced. And if we are talking about a spiral there is no time travelling.

    Here is a picture I made it's damn clumsy but that's how I see Roland's journey right now.
    "D" means desert.



    So all his journeys seem very very similar (their beginnings and ends are specially) but all of them are different and new.


    I agree with this thought, that Roland's loop is actually more of a spiral than a loop. In fact, it's all summed with the poignant number 19. Take a look at that number. If you look hard, you could argue that it's shaped like a man (the 1), getting sucked into a constant spiral (the 9).

    Unfortunately, Roland (and none of the rest of his ka-tet) had ever considered the option of Roland being in a loop. If they had considered this, and focused on 19 the right way, they might have seen this in the number itself. What's strange is that in some ways, everyone does subconsiously know that Roland is looping/spiraling. Jake, Eddie, and Suze all know that the Tower is his one and only obsession, and he's cursed for it.

    So, this is all about Roland. But why? That's the mega question.

    Maybe it's because Roland doesn't actually believe in Gan (God), or he certainly doesn't prioritize him. Roland worships the icon (the Tower) more than the actual force behind the icon (Gan/Ka/God). I'm not 100% sure (only read through the series once), but don't the other ka-tet members believe in Gan/God... I know for sure that Susannah does. They are likely granted a form of serenity in the end because of their unselfishness, and faith in Gan. I think that Roland will loop through this cyclical curse for as long as his motives are selfish, instead of solely for serving Gan.

    Pride comes before the fall. In Roland's case, Pride comes before the loop.

    Roland is obviously the central character, the lightning rod for all that happens but is the story really "all about Roland"?

    Here's an alternate take on things that makes it easier for me to accept the deaths of Eddie, Jake and Oy and the saga's ending.

    Just suppose for a minute that Roland is who he is and does what he does so others that join his ka-tet to save the tower are able to grow and be fulfilled in their own lives.

    Take a simplified look at each of the ka-tet of this loop or spiral.

    Jake was not too happy with his life. He was ignored by his parents, didn't really lead a "normal" kid's life and really had no idea of his purpose.

    Eddie was a junkie with no hope, no contribution to society and was steadily getting worse just like his brother Henry.

    Odetta/Detta was a total schizo without the use of her legs and the "evil twin" was starting to win out. Not much future there.

    Oy was shunned from his own kind because of his sense of self awareness and ability to "talk". He (I believe he was a he) is forced from his pack and made to fend for himself alone in his word.

    Each of them are natural born gunslingers but don't know it and don't know how to do what they must do as gunslingers.

    Along comes Roland who identifies to them they are gunslingers and gives each one of them a purpose for their lives (albeit in line with his quest to save the Dark Tower).

    After an initial attempt to fight the notion, each comes to accept themselves as a gunslinger and the belief the dark tower must be saved. Through their adventures with Roland they achieve a level of fulfillment that they would never have achieved if left as they were.

    Jake, Eddie and Oy die in the end. Jake and Eddie die without regret, arguably fulfilled knowing they did all they could to save the end of the world.

    Oy dies after the tower is saved but he knows that his destiny is stay with Roland and make sure Roland makes it to the tower so the loop/spiral can happen again and other unborn gunslingers can be found and become part of a new ka-tet with Roland.

    Susannah does not die because she must make the choice to leave Roland and go through the door to the alternate world to be reunited with an alternate Eddie and Jake and later Oy. This ensures that Eddie, Jake and Oy are rewarded for their noble sacrifices.

  2. #602
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorDodge View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bev Vincent View Post
    He's always saved the Tower. He just hasn't figured out how to save himself yet.
    It sumps up everything for me.
    Short, beautiful and really meaningful.
    I agree too, it really puts it together. I would take it one step further and say that The Tower is a manifestation of his obsession. Not that there isn't a real "Tower" but it's representation is based on what is in side of your heart.
    I never thought of it that way Matt, but you do have a good point. It certainly explains how everything on the inside of the Tower is connected to Roland's life...
    I think it is because the fate of the universe is connected to Roland's life. I'm one of those who believes that the inside of the tower would look the same to anyone who managed to enter it. Roland really is that important.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daeris View Post
    ...I think that Roland will loop through this cyclical curse for as long as his motives are selfish, instead of solely for serving Gan.
    ...
    Of course -- finding ways to force everyone to serve him in all things is the very essence of the noble, unselfish Gan. Good thing he is around to teach Roland a lesson. Clearly no hypocriscy in that.
    Quote Originally Posted by ManOfWesternesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ManOfWesternesse View Post
    ...I think the Worlds and Beams essentially 'reset' as well.
    Then, shouldn't it still be 1999?
    I'm not sure I get your point path? ...Time in what world? ...
    Exactly. If time in all worlds resets with Roland, then every world, (this "real" one included,) would theoretically not move forward "until" the loop was resolved. What we have here is Roland moving from one reality, one version of Mid-World, to another. From this second world, there'd need to be more versions of Earth and all the places he visits, or else he would have run into his later self, before. It's not clear whether this new world is created by the loop, or if Gan sends Roland into an already existing world. What is clear is that 2 Rolands must mean at least 2 dimensions.

  3. #603
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    no he starts all the at the begining of his life we only know him from that point
    "First comes the smiles, then lies. last is gunfire"
    - Roland Deschain, of Gilead

  4. #604
    Traveler nearlyprescient is on a distinguished road

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    in support of the spiral idea, it would give meaning to his 'loop' starting in the desert at least twice.
    if it were a spiral, it wouldn't be hard to imagine that each time, a little less of his life is represented in the tower, and that each time, he reaches a higher level and starts the spiral from a slightly later point.

  5. #605
    Traveler nearlyprescient is on a distinguished road

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    sorry about the double. no clue how that happened.
    Last edited by nearlyprescient; 05-26-2009 at 05:04 AM. Reason: double post

  6. #606
    John F. Kennedy Twilights Fire is on a distinguished road Twilights Fire's Avatar

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    **
    Disclaimer: :-)
    I have not read all the threads on this forum, so bear with me if this has been asked/discussed already... If so, just point me towards the thread and I'll join the discussion :-)
    **
    Keystone World/Worlds Vs. Time

    During my journey through the Dark Tower books I always had a idea lingering in my head that during several times made my head spin;

    I've always thought of Roland's world as the same world Eddie/Suzannah/Jake come from... But in a different time...

    Reading about radioactive fall-out from wars long forgotten,
    Left over technology, cities , robots...

    It feels like Roland is in the year 3000 or something...
    And that the Tower/Beams have been crumbling since the "beginning of time" which could explain Roland's "the world has moved on".

  7. #607
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    I thought that a lot too. There were so many times during the quest that I looked at Roland's world as ours or as the same as Eddie/Jake/Susannah's just way in the future after society destroyed itself, built everything back up and then destroyed itself again . . .

    But there is so much talk and views of other worlds and other times that that theory just became a little confusing. I still think deep inside that Mid-World may be a future of ours, but due to events in the books, that the chance that it is not, outweighs the thought.
    Are sins ever forgiven?

    For those who loved this world... and knew friendly company therein. This Reunion is for you.

    http://www.zazzle.com/Kidd_Ikarus*

  8. #608
    Army of the 12 Monkeys pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle's Avatar

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    Good summation, Kidd.
    It's like having a multiverse is supposed to be more meaningful than just having an inescapable cycle of collapse and rebuilding. The Dark Tower is hypothetically there at the center as a part of the real point of reality.
    Hypothetically.
    Quote Originally Posted by Twilights Fire View Post
    **
    Disclaimer: :-)
    I have not read all the threads on this forum, so bear with me if this has been asked/discussed already... If so, just point me towards the thread and I'll join the discussion :-)
    ...
    Several people have discussed it. I'm not exactly sure where all, but here is a link to links to some points made by yours truly, for what that might be worth. http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/...5&postcount=60

    Good to have you here, TF. I hope that we'll have a chance to talk further.
    Welcome.

  9. #609
    John F. Kennedy Twilights Fire is on a distinguished road Twilights Fire's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post

    Good to have you here, TF. I hope that we'll have a chance to talk further.
    Welcome.
    Thanks for the welcome
    I'm hoping for some good discussions in the future!
    I might bring up a few things that have been claimed before but considering some threads are 128 pages long you have to give me a break

    Still it looks like a nice community here and I'm interested in other people's views on the DT books and whatever else we will discuss here!

  10. #610
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twilights Fire View Post
    I've always thought of Roland's world as the same world Eddie/Suzannah/Jake come from... But in a different time...
    I wondered if Roland's world was supposed to be our future to begin with. I think it's still a possibility that the events there are a possibility for the various worlds* but I think it's clear it isn't literally the future world. Why? Because the Tower exists there as a tower. It doesn't exist anywhere else in that form.


    *including the various worlds where America exists including, Tower keystone, Eddie, Susannah and Jake's world.

  11. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    ...*including the various worlds where America exists including, Tower keystone, Eddie, Susannah and Jake's world.
    America doesn't exist on Tower keystone. Did you mean to say Keystone rose? Eddie clearly came from a different world than that keystone... but Susannah apparently IS from there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    ...I think it's clear it isn't literally the future world. Why? Because the Tower exists there as a tower. It doesn't exist anywhere else in that form. ...
    So what? How would that prove that the worlds are separated by a fifth dimension rather than by the fourth? Couldn't it be that the form that the Tower exists in changes into a different one at some point in time?

    (Dang, we need another new thread. )

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    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    America doesn't exist on Tower keystone. Did you mean to say Keystone rose?
    I meant the Keystone Earth. (I was thinking of Roland's 'Tower Keystone' world and made the finger equivalent of a slip of the toungue. )

    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    ...I think it's clear it isn't literally the future world. Why? Because the Tower exists there as a tower. It doesn't exist anywhere else in that form. ...
    So what? How would that prove that the worlds are separated by a fifth dimension rather than by the fourth?
    Heh, you lost me there...

    Couldn't it be that the form that the Tower exists in changes into a different one at some point in time?
    But that's a good point. So the Tower of the keystone world (the Rose) became the Dark Tower? I'm sure that's not the case. I just have this idea of the Tower as being eternal in it's specific form.

    Eddie clearly came from a different world than that keystone... but Susannah apparently IS from there.
    It's confusing because there is a Moses Carver in the Keystone world who knew a Susannah that went missing. However, our Susannah isn't from the keystone world. They mentioned that the station in which she was pushed isn't on the line it's stated to be (in the keystone world.)

    Of course that begs the question, where is keystone Susannah? I have some ideas surrounding this but... as you say that's another thread.

  13. #613
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    ...I think it's clear it isn't literally the future world. Why? Because the Tower exists there as a tower. It doesn't exist anywhere else in that form. ...
    So what? How would that prove that the worlds are separated by a fifth dimension rather than by the fourth?
    Heh, you lost me there...
    Time is the fourth dimension. If Roland's world were literally a future world, we might still say that it is a different world from the present world. Before I can accept or reject the logic of the idea that the Tower takes the form of a tower in that one world alone, I would need to have a better definition of what the word "world" refers to, and what it is that distinguishes any one "world" from the rest of the reality which it is connected to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    So the Tower of the keystone world (the Rose) became the Dark Tower?
    Maybe the dark tower that the Tet Corp. built over the Rose became the Dark Tower.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    I'm sure that's not the case. I just have this idea of the Tower as being eternal in it's specific form.
    You're sure, or you just have an idea? Myself, I must say that I am still pretty unsure about of most of this. However, it seems that the Tower does not have a specific form. It has various forms. If you're saying that its form doesn't vary over the course of linear time, that implies that the kind of time in which its forms vary is solely the extra-linear time in which "parallel universes" theoretically exist. That may be true, but I still don't really know precisely why it even has various forms at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    They mentioned that the station in which she was pushed isn't on the line it's stated to be (in the keystone world.)
    I forgot about that. Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    Of course that begs the question, where is keystone Susannah? I have some ideas surrounding this but... as you say that's another thread.
    Actually, that's perhaps the only one of the points we've been talking about that maybe does fit this thread. I think that keystone Susannah might have gone with the Roland that is in the next iteration of his looping... and been surprised that the station in the world that the next SK lives in actually is on that line, contrary to her own experience.

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    Actually, that's perhaps the only one of the points we've been talking about that maybe does fit this thread*. I think that keystone Susannah might have gone with the Roland that is in the next iteration of his looping...
    *Fair enough. That was one of the things I thought too.

    Another possibility I had in mind was that maybe those characters that appear in the Keystone world and other worlds like Moses Carver, Calvin Tower and co and the mafioso lads might have actually crossed worlds without knowing it. That seems unlikely though as there are enough geographical differences that should warn them... unless they somehow become incorporated into that world memory inclusive...

    Or maybe just the Writer writing them into the Keystone world simply made them part of that world, including the incorporation of their memories. In that case they'd be the same characters, Susannah inclusive, although her memories would be from before that time having crossed over before hand...

    I'm not convinced of these latter, just listing possibilities.

    You're sure, or you just have an idea?
    I'm quite sure of my idea? Heh.

    I think it's mainly the image of this huge megalithic timeless structure rising out of the prim. (Although I'm aware 'timeless' and 'rising' are contradictory as the latter suggests a passage of time.) It just feels right to me that in the Tower keystone world the Tower is and always has been in the form of a tower.

    I'm aware that there is a multiple dimension theory of Quantum Mechanics that dictates that new worlds are spawned all the time to incorporate every eventuality, so that means the Tower world could still be in the future and be a separate world, but I don't think the Dark Tower multiverse works quite on those lines (although it does seem to borrow from some stuff from that theory. I think it's a matter of degree really.)

  15. #615
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    ...Another possibility I had in mind was that maybe those characters that appear in the Keystone world and other worlds like Moses Carver, Calvin Tower and co and the mafioso lads might have actually crossed worlds without knowing it. That seems unlikely though as there are enough geographical differences that should warn them... unless they somehow become incorporated into that world memory inclusive...

    Or maybe just the Writer writing them into the Keystone world simply made them part of that world, including the incorporation of their memories. In that case they'd be the same characters, Susannah inclusive, although her memories would be from before that time having crossed over before hand...

    I'm not convinced of these latter, just listing possibilities. ...
    Well, yeah, that is off-topic.
    Nonetheless, I have to quickly point out that there's some support for the idea of something like that in what happens to Jake's copy of Charlie the Choo-Choo in DT5.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    You're sure, or you just have an idea?
    I'm quite sure of my idea? Heh.
    There's not much good in trying to reason with someone who just believes whatever he feels like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    ...It just feels right to me that in the Tower keystone world the Tower is and always has been in the form of a tower.
    Well, if that is true, then where was that Tower standing six billion years ago, before the planet was formed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    ...I'm aware that there is a multiple dimension theory of Quantum Mechanics that dictates that new worlds are spawned all the time to incorporate every eventuality...but I don't think the Dark Tower multiverse works quite on those lines...
    That makes two of us. Even within RL quantum physics, there are differing theories. You don't have to get into all of that, however, to grasp the concept of multiple dimensions; that is basic geometry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    ...the Tower world could still be in the future and be a separate world...
    It's more of a matter of simple diction. Just what does "a separate world" mean?
    If events in the present world change the facts of Mid-World through the course of history, then that is one type of cosmological relationship.
    All I'm saying is that the only way to logically show that the two "worlds" are not related in that way is by demonstrating that precisely that type of change does not and cannot occur.

  16. #616
    Traveler mdk101 is on a distinguished road mdk101's Avatar

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    Default A question regarding the end. <SPOILER>


    Which theory do you support?


    a) Roland is on a loop with the same Ka-Tet up until his revelation / gift from Gan at the end of the series? (different this time, mayhap different ) Does he come to a brand new Tull every time he passes through?

    or

    b) Roland is on a constantly differing journey each time he steps through his door at the top of the tower with an every changing Ka-Tet / drawing? Will he find an empty Tull this time around after killing the entire town?


    __________________________________________________ _______

    I wanted to make a thread dedicated specifically to this: is Roland's journeys to the tower a loop (the series replayed over and over) or is it a spiral with a whole new Ka-Tet everytime? I like the explanation of why he starts over in the desert, the one i've accepted at this point is that this is where Roland sees the Tower as becoming attainable (the short and dirty of it). And addressed at the bottom, how is time itself handled in the spiral/loops?

    For the "Spiral"

    The quote by Cort gives me mixed feelings that both in my opinion can support both theories:

    "You 're the one who never changes...It'll be your damnation, boy. You'll wear out a hundred pairs of boots on your walk to hell."


    I guess the "boots" can be a metaphor for shifting / changing Ka-Tets...but that may be over-analyzing it.

    I like this spiral graphic to display the theory:





    For the "Loop"
    I have not had much time to think of many specific examples, but one argument I have against the loop that comes to mind is Roland's look into the pink ball that shows the impaled Billy Bumbler (Oy's death in TDT). This in particular is far behind the start of the loop/spiral to support there being a new Ka-Tet everytime.

    The latter, to me, implies that Roland is stuck on a loop...keep in mind the quote by Vannay:

    "Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to repeat it."






    A second somewhat related thought: How is time handled in either situation?

    Clearly the "Spiral" would imply the world's time would keep ticking along with Roland's...but what about the "Loop?"

    If Roland is in either situation loop or spiral, we constantly hear throughout the book how old Roland must be to be from Gilead. We know that Roland is the constant no matter what situation, but say from the get-go in both situations:

    How would this work out in the "Loop" situation...if Roland was on a loop this would imply time itself would be set back as well (Roland unaffected by the time warp itself), leaving the gap between Gilead's fall and Roland's "age" to be more reasonable than the guestimated thousands of years old. I guess this in itself is an argument for the "Spiral"...I am too tired to delve into this much further without rambling on too much :-/

  17. #617
    妖怪 ola is on a distinguished road ola's Avatar

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    My first, general impression when I finished the series:

    So...Roland has been repeating the same quest, with slightly different consequences to slightly different actions each time.

    After this particular time however, he's earned(?) the Horn of Eld (i.e. taken the moment to pick it up at the battle, thanks to ka(?) changing its course).

    To me this means he's been dropped back into an alternate, though similar reality. It has to be a whole alternate timeline in order for past events to be different (picking up the Horn). This can't be a loop of the exact same thing because of that important detail - and so then I guess it must be a spiral.

    A spiral doesn't sound exactly right to me either. Is there a c.) neither of the above?

    A random idea I had: maybe things would turn out very different if he had stopped the Hambry people/Rhea from killing Susan. Not necessarily stayed with her after that, but at least saved her - and his child with her. The Grapefruit is arguably evil, after all, and was the thing that sent him off on his obsessive Tower quest. He may have still saved the universe after that (his father already knew of the Tower anyway) but not gotten so possessed by the idea of entering it for himself. And if a non-evil child had continued the line of Eld, that may have contributed to protecting the Tower/Beams as well. Plus: if it wasn't all the worlds that were depending on Roland to go after the Tower, then his abandonment of Susan would have been an incredibly selfish act. Maybe even an evil one. And after the battle for Algul Siento, and saving King, there was really no reason to go to the Tower anyway!

    In other words - the Horn could be completely symbolic. For the things left behind without a second thought...for the sake of the Tower. Maybe in some version of his quest he'll not abandon everything he loves for the sake of a symbol, and still be able to protect the stuff that holds the universes together.

  18. #618
    妖怪 ola is on a distinguished road ola's Avatar

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    OK, so after all that blathering...I think this will probably get merged with another thread.

    I have yet to crack this one (I'm worried I'll be reading it for quite a while!):
    http://thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=1778

    Lot's about loops and spirals and time travel, etc...

  19. #619
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    Merged indeed!

    There's even the same diagram a couple of posts up

    Get stuck in in here, mdk - it's a great thread

  20. #620
    Traveler reckless113 is on a distinguished road

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    Default I agree

    Exactly, I see Roland's quest for the tower as an inherently selfless act, in the finest tradition of The Line of Eld, and Gunslingers. He never forgets the face of Steven Deschain, and there's a certain nobility about him which is at once barbaric, and civilized. I've always seen Roland, and gunslingers, for that matter, as knights of the highest order, of the finest character, training and courage. I do not think Roland pursues the tower because he wants to see it, although that's a bonus. I think he pursues the tower because he feels as though it's his obligation and duty. I think he would cry off of the tower in an instant if he felt he had some higher obligation which was less appealing to him.[/QUOTE]

    I couldn't agree more!

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    Because it was the neatest way to finish.
    Notice how sai King finished with the starting line?
    He couldn't have done that if it had been starting from Mejis or Gilead.
    If you love me, then love me - Susan Delgado

    The world eventually sends out a mean-ass Patrol Boy to slow your progress and show you who's boss - Stephen King

    Will always love Paul Aaron Mills; He is the Roland to my Susan


  22. #622
    Traveler ToWeR JunkiE is on a distinguished road

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    I have dwelt on this for WEEkS after reading the ending where you see hom once again in the desert.. only this time with his horn. this could signify hope that maybe he'll get it right this time and realize that he is NOT supposed to get to the tower. ok.. here is my thought, ready? you all sittin down?

    I feel this series -the entire Roland/Gunslinger saga- is an incrediably brilliant play on the old saying.. it is the journey that matters, not the destination.. thing. Rolands obbsession with the REACHING the dark tower is is biggest flaw. it is the one vow he has not yet been able to keep, so he he is stuck in this loop, killing those he loves, giving up everything tht matters, cursed to repeat it all untill he finally realizes that all he needed to do was stop. that's it. just stop and realize that everything that was wrong with the beams, the roses, the tower, the universe was him. if he was capable of just turning the other cheek and walking away it would have all ended for him right there. he could and would have been happy. Ka takes care of itself, right?
    and that is my humble opinion...

  23. #623
    Army of the 12 Monkeys pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle's Avatar

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    Default Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die.


    Ka is a wheel.
    Roland failed to escape, but he is not alone.
    Why are we here?
    "What finally divides the men of today into two camps is not class but an attitude of mind--the spirit of movement. On the one hand there are those who simply wish to make the world a comfortable dwelling-place; on the other hand, those who can only conceive of it as a machine for progress -- or better, an organism that is progressing."
    -- Teilhard de Chardin,
    The Future of Man

  24. #624
    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post

    Ka is a wheel.
    Roland failed to escape, but he is not alone.

    i've used these lyrics several times, both in harrison themes and roland themes. they're certainly apt concerning my reading of roland's tale.

    "There'll come a time when most of us return here
    Brought back by our desire to be, a perfect entity
    Living through a million years of crying
    Until youve realized the art of dying"


    - George Harrison, "Art of Dying"
    on some levels, roland's quest may not be even remotely unique. it all depends on how you look at it. it's all in the mind.
    Last edited by lux interior; 08-07-2009 at 06:56 AM. Reason: i'm the poster, that's why

  25. #625
    Army of the 12 Monkeys pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle's Avatar

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    Well, art is highly subjective. What King wrote was itself partly conditioned by his expectations of our expectations, I expect. Furthermore, I think it's quite possible that he had no single point or message in mind, anyway. So, posting here is not even as simple as trying to describe a face. It's more like trying to describe a photo taken through a prismatic lens of a painting of a face in a mirror.

    For the record, I do not totally subscribe to the teleology of Teilhard de Chardin. It is good, however, as an example of an attempt. Again, it's just a question: Why are we here?

    I certainly did not mean to discount your input, ToWeR JunkiE. It's great that you have given some thought to the meaning of the series, and I'm glad that you decided to join this website. You'll find that many here largely agree with your assessment. In fact, few of our members are as quixotic as I am. Nonetheless, I have dwelt on the ending for YEARS now, and at this point my opinion is that if SK only wanted to say that people should just try to enjoy what they can get, because the truth of the universe is not only unknown but unknowable, then my final word on TDT will be that he simply did not manage to express this as well as Woody Allen has.

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