That Thing, You Can Only Talk About If You've Finished the Series

[Matt]

Depends on what you mean by "the beginning". Its all a perspective thing after all. For me, the first book is the beginning for sure.

The beginning for Roland would be impossible to pinpoint imo.

The beginning for Roland's story is whatever Gan decides it is at this point. We learned in the very first book that Roland was destined for the Tower but there was so much more we didn't know. Learned more in W&G and those who consider the comics cannon are learning even more.

But who's to say its even the same loop?

And can we even say for sure that Roland's memories of Mejis and Susan in book 4 were even part of the same loop we were in?

One assumes his memories of Mejis are set regardless of the loop--the other assumes it could all be changed.

[MonteGss]

That's a great point Matt.

However, I believe it always starts in the desert because like it mentions in DT7, the desert is where he first realizes/believes he will reach the Tower.

[razz]

perhaps every time he gets it right he moves up?

[Mark]

perhaps every time he gets it right he moves up?

This means he can get it wrong? How would he do that? What does he have to do to get it right? I'd have assumed, he's been getting it wrong all this time, hence the loop.

[razz]

maybe he wasn't supposed to slaughter Those in Tull, which affected his quest in the long run.maybe he should've caught Walter before He reached the mountain. i don't know.

[mia/susannah]

I believe Rolands quest always starts in the dessert. I think that is definately where he starts to believe that he will finally reach the Dark Tower

[skoldpadda]

I'm hoping that this question has been settled before, but I figured I'd ask because I couldn't think of a search term with which to find an old thread.

When Roland gets sent back to the desert, do his physical damage and age accompany him?

During the 7 books, he lost a few fingers and toes, aged 10 years in his long sleep, and spent another year or two on the road. When Roland re-starts his loop, is he still sans-digits and old, or does he simply return to his former condition with a new horn and a small inkling of what had just happened?

[Ves'Ka Gan]

Hm. I'm in the middle of a re-read right now, and I'm needing to get a new copy of Book IV. So it's not brand new in my mind, but I am *pretty* sure he is whole again.

[mia/susannah]

that is a good question. I think he pretty much starts his loops at the same age as the loop before.

[The Lady of Shadows]

i think he starts where he was at the beginning of the last loop, which would ultimately be at the beginning of the very first loop, cosmologically speaking. therefore, he would have all his fingers and be the proper age when he first started pursing walter across the desert. imo.

[ladysai]

I'm hoping that this question has been settled before, but I figured I'd ask because I couldn't think of a search term with which to find an old thread.

When Roland gets sent back to the desert, do his physical damage and age accompany him?

During the 7 books, he lost a few fingers and toes, aged 10 years in his long sleep, and spent another year or two on the road. When Roland re-starts his loop, is he still sans-digits and old, or does he simply return to his former condition with a new horn and a small inkling of what had just happened?

I'm also thinking that he starts each loop at the same age and in the same physical condition.
Kinda hard to truly start over if you are still carrying the experiences of a past with you.

As far as the aging ten years in his sleep after his palaver with Walter...

didnt Walter say (maybe in DT7) that he had bleached a skeleton and left it for Roland to discover after he left? I dont think there was a long strech of years during his sleep, just a long night.

[John_and_Yoko]

Then how did Roland age ten years?

[ladysai]

Then how did Roland age ten years?

I dont believe that happened.
(Mind the mind trap)
Or, I completely misunderstood a section of DT7.
Take your pick.

[Letti]

good question skoldpadda
I think his body gets younger and whole again but his spirit and mind aren't the same.

[Jean]

it is quite clear from the text that his fingers are all in place; but, since he has the horn, we don't really know what else had happened to him before we see him starting that next loop, and what more different damage he might have suffered. For all we know, he might have a slipped disk, or nail fungus, whatever.

[alinda]

Very interesting question, of course I am now questioning
if any of those things happened to him at all now. Life
is so illusionary to begin with, I mean when Roland reaches for
the door knob (latch, whatever) he has digits missing etc..
and as he emerges on the otherside of said door, he's whole?
Maybe what he's lacking be it youth or fingers & toes its all
in his perception of his self, do you see what I mean?

Some people get in an accident and are paralized for life
from their injuries, some have the same indications and
prognosis and yet they determine to get up and walk again
what is the difference in these two if not only their perception
of their selves, and their situation?

[Ka-tet]

perhaps every time he gets it right he moves up?

This means he can get it wrong? How would he do that? What does he have to do to get it right? I'd have assumed, he's been getting it wrong all this time, hence the loop.

I belive roland only has to get it right once, then he will reach the end of the loop and the room at the top.

To get it right i belive that he must realise that things in this world are more important than the tower, the people in his ka-tet. For example at the end of the first book he forsakes jake in the name of the tower, i dont belive he would do that again. I belive given the choice roland would have died to let jake live(but thats for another thread )

[Tiffany]

I suppose an argument could be made that he gets closer every time. We only know for sure he started in the desert this time.

However, I think the Tower has the ability to shape Roland's further back in his past than the desert. Meaning, like LOST, nothing is set in stone.

Because we are dealing with the lynch pin of time and space here.

I voted yes because it was my knee-jerk reaction but you make a good point, Matt.

[Woofer]

I suppose an argument could be made that he gets closer every time. We only know for sure he started in the desert this time.

However, I think the Tower has the ability to shape Roland's further back in his past than the desert. Meaning, like LOST, nothing is set in stone.

Because we are dealing with the lynch pin of time and space here.

Get out of my head!

[LemurJones]

I think that Roland always starts in A desert. I don't think he necessarily goes through THE desert, the ONE desert where everything that happens stays happened, because there would never be any point in learning or trying to do better. This makes me think that Roland has never really ever been in the world where the Tower truly resides, because I don't think it would let him screw up on the one level where there's no restart button. So that also explains, in my mind, why his past is slightly different at the end of the 7th book.

[LemurJones]

Probably he has all his fingers and is whatever age he thinks he should be. It's his soul that he's questing for, not his body, and that's all just frosting on the hideous, gritty, bad-man cake of Roland's ka.

[LemurJones]

it's the beginning of where we start reading it.

Roland's beginning, of his own self, was when he was born.

The actual quest? The story of the quest? Every single thing that went into the formation of Roland's need to find the tower, including the tower itself?

That story started at the beginning of Time. It goes on forever.

[The Lady of Shadows]

if it's a loop, a cycle, then is there really a beginning? is there really an end? or is it more like a mobius strip that just keeps endlessly repeating until someone cuts it somewhere. . . .

i think for all intents and purposes, it begins where ever we want it to begin. whether that's with "the man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed"; with roland, cuthbert and alain in mejis; or with roland, eddie, jake, and susannah on blaine (considering how each [group] got together as backstory).

[John_and_Yoko]

if it's a loop, a cycle, then is there really a beginning? is there really an end? or is it more like a mobius strip that just keeps endlessly repeating until someone cuts it somewhere. . . .

i think for all intents and purposes, it begins where ever we want it to begin. whether that's with "the man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed"; with roland, cuthbert and alain in mejis; or with roland, eddie, jake, and susannah on blaine (considering how each [group] got together as backstory).

But then aren't you talking about before they even came to Lud at all? Because they got together before River Crossing, even....

[Ka-tet]

I think that Roland always starts in A desert. I don't think he necessarily goes through THE desert, the ONE desert where everything that happens stays happened, because there would never be any point in learning or trying to do better. This makes me think that Roland has never really ever been in the world where the Tower truly resides, because I don't think it would let him screw up on the one level where there's no restart button. So that also explains, in my mind, why his past is slightly different at the end of the 7th book.

Thats a very interesting outlook sai.