That Thing, You Can Only Talk About If You've Finished the Series

[sarah]

yes, I like the term spiral much better than time travel. Time travel suggests that the past is erased and you start again at point A. I don't think Roland's past is ever erased more that it has shifted to a different level or spiral. Thanks for the picture, Letti.

[Chap]

I've sort of seen them as spirals as well, but ones that are very simular (not identical). And I've also thought that for each "loop"/spiral, he gets closer to achieving whatever it is he's doing.

[The King of Kings]

so, why would Roland remember all of his past loops the seconds he goes through the door? only to forget seconds later.

just as he goes through, he yells, NO, NOT AGAIN!

been toying around with memories and things in the Roland's Intuitions thread, but it doesn't necessarily explain whey he remembers it all at the end.

As in the Intuitions thread suggests, his memories and lessons learned in previous loops sort of, guide and influence decisions and actions he takes.

But He doesn't necessarily need to remember everything all at once... if that was the only case it seems these memories or subconscious memories would build up regardless of this event, at least that is what i think....

So again, the question is WHY he "fully" remembers everything, and why such a brief period of time.

Only answer I can think of is ---- Torment....

Do you ever have a song stuck in your head that you HAVE to listen to, but for the life of you, you cant think of an artist, a lyric, or how it goes? Then the minute you hear a little bit of the song everything comes back to you?

I imagine it being like that.

[Darkthoughts]

Roland's Intuition & Why Remember To Forget:

Merging both threads with the main "loop thread" (That Thing, You Can Only Talk About When You've Finished The Series). Great questions, but anything pertaining to loops can be discussed in here

Sorry about that. I had no idea what this thread was about because of the name

No worries! I know it's a bit cryptic, but we decided that it would be too much of a spoiler to name it the Loop Thread

[Bumbler19]

Do you ever have a song stuck in your head that you HAVE to listen to, but for the life of you, you cant think of an artist, a lyric, or how it goes? Then the minute you hear a little bit of the song everything comes back to you?

I imagine it being like that.

interesting, i never really thought of it like that... I like it, I saw it as something that Gan either did to him, or let him have the memories for a purpose, rather than his mind just being jump started... I really like that thought tho.

I do not think Roland's quote of "No, not again" means he remembers everything about his previous loops. Not at all. To me, it is Roland realizing he is going back to the desert, to the point where he knew that he'd reach the Tower, and crying out his sadness and unhappiness. I didn't see it having anything to do with remembering any loops.

hmm, i guess that is a point, I read it as being a much more agonizing situation like, when you are trying to build a card castle and you keep getting so close to the top and every time you do it falls down and you have to start all over again like 19 times... so you are all like... Gawd-Damnit not again!!

guess I wouldn't rule out what you said though, it is kind of an ambiguous statement now that I see another angle...

[Bumbler19]

yeah, as i've been posting and reading more and more its becoming more apparent to me that each spiral or loop is a different version of Roland's world kinda.

Hi Bumbler19 congrats on finishing the series and welcome to the site. Just FYI this thread will be merged tomorrow or Monday with the other End thread. It is filled with all sorts good stuff about the ending and loop and whatnots. It is getting pretty long now but it is worth a look through. Thanks!

Okay dokay!

[MonteGss]

I do not think Roland's quote of "No, not again" means he remembers everything about his previous loops. Not at all. To me, it is Roland realizing he is going back to the desert, to the point where he knew that he'd reach the Tower, and crying out his sadness and unhappiness. I didn't see it having anything to do with remembering any loops.

hmm, i guess that is a point, I read it as being a much more agonizing situation like, when you are trying to build a card castle and you keep getting so close to the top and every time you do it falls down and you have to start all over again like 19 times... so you are all like... Gawd-Damnit not again!!

guess I wouldn't rule out what you said though, it is kind of an ambiguous statement now that I see another angle...

I can see how you'd think that. I agree that it is a statement that is very wide open to interpretation.

[The King of Kings]

yeah, as i've been posting and reading more and more its becoming more apparent to me that each spiral or loop is a different version of Roland's world kinda.

Hi Bumbler19 congrats on finishing the series and welcome to the site. Just FYI this thread will be merged tomorrow or Monday with the other End thread. It is filled with all sorts good stuff about the ending and loop and whatnots. It is getting pretty long now but it is worth a look through. Thanks!

Okay dokay!

I was throwing around the idea that originally there just two worlds, the actual Gilead/mid/end world place, and the actual earth world. Then with each cycle, another copy of the two places are made and the newer ones are now the "two real worlds".

Just an idea though. What do you think?

[Bumbler19]

I dont really agree with that, maybe the concept of new worlds being created at each spiral is a good one but it would have to be more than 2.

Because remember the doors/thinnies underneath castle discordia and also in the fedic Dogan? those doors went to many other completely different worlds nothing like Roland's world or New York. Remember they weren't really sure the creature worm thing in the tunnels was from the prim receding, or todash space... they said it maybe came through a door from another world, not necessarily todash.

Also, i'm not sure about this but Taheen i'm pretty sure i read at one point come from a different world.... completely different than the key 2.

[jayson]

Also we know that Callahan visited many different worlds and I don't think they were created by any act of Roland's doing.

[Kes]

Also we know that Callahan visited many different worlds and I don't think they were created by any act of Roland's doing.

And there is further explanation of how that could be in "The Jaunt". A short story who's book name escapes me at the moment, though I'm sure someone else knows it off the top of their head?

Also I believe that the Taheen were explained as being directly from the Prim, and superior to "humes" in strength and length of life etc...

Spoiler:

Remember the conversation between Finli O'Tego and his boss Pimli about the potential of a Taheen basketball team?

The Can-toi on the other hand are spoken of as inferior to humes and aspirant of human status...I believe because they were some sort of hybrid and not directly from the Prim.

[Bumbler19]

Also I believe that the Taheen were explained as being directly from the Prim, and superior to "humes" in strength and length of life etc...

Ah, i remember the conversation but i guess i din't remember that part though.

----------------------------------
On a New Idea-

So, assuming it is true that the keystone world of 99 (Stephen King's world) time always flows forward, in one direction, then It would also make sense that for every loop they visit a completely different when in world 99, or maybe they don't visit at all, here i'll get to a point.

The point is that Stephen King is only Gan's Writer or w/e for one loop or spiral. Which means that Robert Browning was probably a previous one. The others have been lost to history, the stories probably don't have to be popular, as long as they are written down.

OR

Ka or Gan or the turtle song w/e, influenced Robert Browning for the sake of giving King inspiration.

What do you think?

[EdwardDean1999]

I've always been a fan of the loop. KA is a wheel and all that mythos. I also like to think of Roland's return to the desert as appropriate. That's when we know Roland as a monster/killing machine. Roland is then at his lowest point in the Roland time line. He has absolutely no redeeming qualities. Everyone around him dies. It's good to jump back to this point of Roland's development because it happens just as he is about to meet the instrument of his Redemption: Jake.

[EdwardDean1999]

[quote=Bumbler19;326925]

The point is that Stephen King is only Gan's Writer or w/e for one loop or spiral. Which means that Robert Browning was probably a previous one. The others have been lost to history, the stories probably don't have to be popular, as long as they are written down.

OR

Ka or Gan or the turtle song w/e, influenced Robert Browning for the sake of giving King inspiration.

What do you think?

That's a fun idea. So who's the next? JJ Abrams?

[Kes]

Also I believe that the Taheen were explained as being directly from the Prim, and superior to "humes" in strength and length of life etc...

Ah, i remember the conversation but i guess i din't remember that part though.

----------------------------------
On a New Idea-

So, assuming it is true that the keystone world of 99 (Stephen King's world) time always flows forward, in one direction, then It would also make sense that for every loop they visit a completely different when in world 99, or maybe they don't visit at all, here i'll get to a point.

The point is that Stephen King is only Gan's Writer or w/e for one loop or spiral. Which means that Robert Browning was probably a previous one. The others have been lost to history, the stories probably don't have to be popular, as long as they are written down.

OR

Ka or Gan or the turtle song w/e, influenced Robert Browning for the sake of giving King inspiration.

What do you think?

Okay...I like that idea...it jibes also with the notion of the Crimson King being Stephen King's evil twin.

If you buy what is said about CK in Insomnia it's said he jumps from person to person, incarnation to incarnation.

So...Gan's writer...and the nemesis of Gan's writer...jumping through time/loops alternately creating/destroying the Tower.

[Bumbler19]

So, assuming it is true that the keystone world of 99 (Stephen King's world) time always flows forward, in one direction, then It would also make sense that for every loop they visit a completely different when in world 99, or maybe they don't visit at all, here i'll get to a point.

The point is that Stephen King is only Gan's Writer or w/e for one loop or spiral. Which means that Robert Browning was probably a previous one. The others have been lost to history, the stories probably don't have to be popular, as long as they are written down.



What do you think?

Okay...I like that idea...it jibes also with the notion of the Crimson King being Stephen King's evil twin.

If you buy what is said about CK in Insomnia it's said he jumps from person to person, incarnation to incarnation.

So...Gan's writer...and the nemesis of Gan's writer...jumping through time/loops alternately creating/destroying the Tower.

Well they aren't really alternately creating/destroying the Tower because destroying the Tower means destroying Gan, which would unmake all of existence. What basically is happening is Gan's writer is continually trying to save existence, and the nemesis is continually trying to destroy it, but apparently fails each time (at least previously)

If Gan was destroyed Maerlyn would then rein over the prim, and who knows what he would really do with it...

Well i'm currently reading the Gunslinger Born comics, at the end a lot about the history of Gan and Roland's world is explained.

[Kes]

Note: These comics were not written by Stephen King... but King DOES read everything AND OK them.

I have them on order at the moment, but someone else posted in another thread the lineage of the CK so I was aware. (You might want to spoilerize that kind of stuff from now on, in case someone who hasn't read the comics wants to learn that stuff for themselves.)

I have lots of theories/guesses as to why Roland can't/didn't kill the Crimson King...but that's a subject for another thread

[Bumbler19]

k continuation of my last post, wanted to put taht stuff in spoiler tags....

Well it was pertaining specifically to the loop so i figured it went here... because of it pertaining to the loop, it doesn't really go in the comic parts either OR a specific CKdeath thread that doesn't talk about the loop... oh well spoiler tags around it now!!

well, we know CK is from the line of Eld from reading the actual books, at least generally. At least it was highly implied, how else could he get in the tower in the first place?

but thanks for the heads up kes.

Spoiler:

In issue 2, it explains how CK came from the line of Eld... A great old one, a Spider queen demon from the prim, basically became pregnant with Arthur Eld's child, that child is the CK.

I guess that doesn't doesn't prove or disprove the fact that CK is SK's twinner... hmm where was I going with this...

ah yes, well the comic goes on to explain that Roland is prophesied to kill CK, and when that happens Roland will rein in the power of the prim forever.

Now, we all know that Roland didn't really kill CK, he merely diminished him to eyeballs... so maybe, Roland's loop will end when he actually fully succeeds in Killing CK? and that is all? and the whole loop thing merely a, "mission failed: try again!" Patrick needs some White Out!!!

Also it hints that Roland will climb each level of the tower and destroy the outer dark... he needs to kill all the servants of the prim. So that means CK probably cannot really die until all other Prim-bastards are destroyed first.

Note: These comics were not written by Stephen King... but King DOES read everything AND OK them.

[Kes]

well, we know CK is from the line of Eld from reading the actual books, at least generally. At least it was highly implied, how else could he get in the tower in the first place?

Spoiler:

In issue 2, it explains how CK came from the line of Eld... A great old one, a Spider queen demon from the prim, basically became pregnant with Arthur Eld's child, that child is the CK.

I guess that doesn't doesn't prove or disprove the fact that CK is SK's twinner... hmm where was I going with this...

ah yes, well the comic goes on to explain that Roland is prophesied to kill CK, and when that happens Roland will rein in the power of the prim forever.

Now, we all know that Roland didn't really kill CK, he merely diminished him to eyeballs... so maybe, Roland's loop will end when he actually fully succeeds in Killing CK? and that is all? and the whole loop thing merely a, "mission failed: try again!" Patrick needs some White Out!!!

Also it hints that Roland will climb each level of the tower and destroy the outer dark... he needs to kill all the servants of the prim. So that means CK probably cannot really die until all other Prim-bastards are destroyed first.

Note: These comics were not written by Stephen King... but King DOES read everything AND OK them.

He must have had a sigul of Eld. The series doesn't say that you have to be of the line of Eld, only that you have to have a sigul of Eld (the guns, or the horn and I would suspect possibly more.) I've often asked myself what CK had that allowed him to enter the Tower.

This also begs the question, what would have happened if Roland had ventured onto a balcony, to check on Patrick or take in the view or somesuch thing. Would that have been the end of the loop for him as well?

[Bumbler19]

He must have had a sigul of Eld. The series doesn't say that you have to be of the line of Eld, only that you have to have a sigul of Eld (the guns, or the horn and I would suspect possibly more.) I've often asked myself what CK had that allowed him to enter the Tower.

Yeah agreed, but the fact that he did get into the tower somehow, and that he is of the line of Eld implies that he did have some sort of sigul.

like i said before, some think that the "torn up baby clothes" that Roland saw on that floor weren't really torn up baby clothes, but CK's torn up sigul.

I also have a theory that venturing onto the balcony was a sort of renounciation to the tower because CK was putting himself before the tower, so maybe, the tower rendered CK's sigul powerless.

Who knows what would have happened really Roland opened the balcony doors, the 3Kings prediction could come true, CK could have somehow taken Roland's guns and entered the tower, dunno there is already a thread on this subject though.

[Darkthoughts]

I just posted this in the "Saved or damned" thread, but I thought it was pertinent to discussion here too.

Bumbler19 - I really like your observations from the comics. I'd noticed something similar in The Gunslinger Born #1. In the backstory there it says:

Spoiler:

Each of it's [The Tower] narrow twisting stairways led to a different level of creation - a distant time period, an alternative reality, even a completely unimagined and unimaginable version of now. Our other selves, which Vannay called our twinners, existed in these alternative worlds.

So I'm wondering if Roland won't be redeemed until he saves the Tower in every world. So, each time he loops, he's doing so on a slightly different level of the Tower?

Prior to rereading the comics, I've been of the opinion that Roland was on exactly the same loop every time...but now I'm not so sure

[Bumbler19]

Prior to rereading the comics, I've been of the opinion that Roland was on exactly the same loop every time...but now I'm not so sure

yeah I was the same way before i started reading them. Now the only that I am unsure of is if SK is just accepting this comic info, or really OK'ing them as truths pertaining to the DT universe. But i'm also not sure that even matters to me.

[jayson]

Prior to rereading the comics, I've been of the opinion that Roland was on exactly the same loop every time...but now I'm not so sure

So you are finally coming around to my view of the loops as different each time. Welcome. We've been waiting for you.

[obscurejude]

Prior to rereading the comics, I've been of the opinion that Roland was on exactly the same loop every time...but now I'm not so sure

So you are finally coming around to my view of the loops as different each time. Welcome. We've been waiting for you.

Lisa, does this contradict your theory about Roland being in a time bubble? If so, could you explain and does it factor into your current reconsidering?

[Bumbler19]

Time bubble? i havent heard about this theory yet! I is Excited

omg ObscureJude, All i could think about yesterday was Donny Darko now i see your sig and avatar... ur freakin me out.