That Thing, You Can Only Talk About If You've Finished the Series

[jayres54]

Maybe Roland's time is in the year 3000 like previously stated. Maybe there was some kind of nuclear war. But I think that his world is connected to the Stand. Roland's world could be a world that evolved from the remnants of Boulder free zone. One of the founders of the free zone commitee (Glenn Bateman) talks about people reverting to magic and worshiping things like the sun and whatnot when an enlightened civilization dissapears. Roland's society and world seem like a world regressed with remnants of technology surrounding it. The wastelands could be leftovers from the nuclear explosion caused by God to destroy Flagg's society. The places and people could have been different but it could be a different version of that sequence of events. I see many connections between the Stand being the beginning of Roland's world. I am sure of one thing though, throughout the sets of the multiverse, every outcome and every connection are invariably achieved and being played out. King's writings are just the ones he tells about. So if you have a problem with the way he brought some things about, know that in a world other than these, there is a completely different set of circumstances playing out.

[pathoftheturtle]

If so, then there must be a world in which the Tower is destroyed. That would mean that the Multiverse does not exist.

[tachibana_ichiro_sukeomi]

One simple question..
why does he have to restart the loop from the middle of the desert? Why from there

I think there's a simple answer to the original question of this thread. I think he had to return to the desert in the first book because in the keystone world, Stephen King is the dark tower and Roland is bound to his books. He'll always have to repeat the journey because the actual truth is he's a fictional character, and someone will always be reading his story. I think the 'Dark Tower' gave roland the horn, not so much to reasure Roland that there may be an end to his journey, but to give us (the readers) a ray of hope for Roland so we won't be as outraged and horrified by the truth.

[Letti]

One simple question..
why does he have to restart the loop from the middle of the desert? Why from there

I think there's a simple answer to the original question of this thread. I think he had to return to the desert in the first book because in the keystone world, Stephen King is the dark tower and Roland is bound to his books. He'll always have to repeat the journey because the actual truth is he's a fictional character, and someone will always be reading his story. I think the 'Dark Tower' gave roland the horn, not so much to reasure Roland that there may be an end to his journey, but to give us (the readers) a ray of hope for Roland so we won't be as outraged and horrified by the truth.

Roland is not a fictional character. I don't say it because I am an insane DT junkie I say it because the books don't tell us that he is a fictional character. I don't interpret the appearance of SK in the story this way at all.

[tachibana_ichiro_sukeomi]

Ouch

[Wuducynn]

Roland is not a fictional character.

Uh.

[Jean]

Roland is not a fictional character.

Uh.

No, really, he is not, it's as Nikolett said. Umney is a fictional character within the context of his story, but Roland isn't within his, not much more so than if it was Churchill described by Sir Martin Gilbert, his biographer. The relation between Roland and King is more complex because King-in-the-story for some time doesn't suspect he is not writing about a fictional character, and also by the mutual influence of the Dark Tower (where both the inspiration and existence come from) and what the storyteller writes in his particular universe, but, being complex, it still exists in the book as a relationship between two real, non-fictional people.

[Wuducynn]

Roland is not a fictional character.

Uh.

No, really, he is not, it's as Nikolett said. Umney is a fictional character within the context of his story, but Roland isn't within his, not much more so than if it was Churchill described by Sir Martin Gilbert, his biographer. The relation between Roland and King is more complex because King-in-the-story for some time doesn't suspect he is not writing about a fictional character, and also by the mutual influence of the Dark Tower (where both the inspiration and existence come from) and what the storyteller writes in his particular universe, but, being complex, it still exists in the book as a relationship between two real, non-fictional people.

I see, yes within the story he is not a fictional character. Gotcha.

[Letti]

Roland is not a fictional character.

Uh.

There were some sentences (and a certain explanation) coming after this.

Thanks Jean.

[Jean]

[Wuducynn]

Roland is not a fictional character.

Uh.

There were some sentences (and a certain explanation) coming after this.

Thanks Jean.

It's more fun to just ignore all that and focus on something I can get argumentative about though.

[Letti]

Roland is not a fictional character.

Uh.

There were some sentences (and a certain explanation) coming after this.

Thanks Jean.

It's more fun to just ignore all that and focus on something I can get argumentative about though.

You won.

[flaggwalkstheline]

One simple question..
why does he have to restart the loop from the middle of the desert? Why from there

I think there's a simple answer to the original question of this thread. I think he had to return to the desert in the first book because in the keystone world, Stephen King is the dark tower and Roland is bound to his books. He'll always have to repeat the journey because the actual truth is he's a fictional character, and someone will always be reading his story. I think the 'Dark Tower' gave roland the horn, not so much to reasure Roland that there may be an end to his journey, but to give us (the readers) a ray of hope for Roland so we won't be as outraged and horrified by the truth.

Roland is not a fictional character. I don't say it because I am an insane DT junkie I say it because the books don't tell us that he is a fictional character. I don't interpret the appearance of SK in the story this way at all.

Part of whats the series so great is the fact that by the end of it, reality and fiction have been totally blended and blurred together

[Corwin]

Well, for me, back when it was rumored that the completion of the Dark Tower was the completion of King's writings, I thought it was some cosmic F-You to the reader for waiting all those years and reading all those words just to get plunked back into the beginning of the first book.
I of course recovered from that theory, and now just figure that if Roland's fate is to take another spin on the karmic wheel, he should be returned to the same place we are. Everything before that point either doesn't matter or doesn't affect his outcome significantly.
Either way, I'm 5/7th of the way through the 3rd reading.

[lisaki]

I think there's a simple answer to the original question of this thread. I think he had to return to the desert in the first book because in the keystone world, Stephen King is the dark tower and Roland is bound to his books. He'll always have to repeat the journey because the actual truth is he's a fictional character, and someone will always be reading his story. I think the 'Dark Tower' gave roland the horn, not so much to reasure Roland that there may be an end to his journey, but to give us (the readers) a ray of hope for Roland so we won't be as outraged and horrified by the truth.

That's close to what I believe.
That's what I wrote in the ending thread:

It'd make sense much more to me, if we hadn't given the hope that the next time maybe would be the last, with the horn thing. I'd like to see Roland as a man who holds the Tower and thus the universes safe, by living the same journey again and again. Roland could be a creature that holds everything together. No salvation for him... but only for the Tower and the universes.

That would make sense to me for another reason, also. This is a story about stories. When I finish the last book, someone somewhere in the world is picking the "gunslinger" to read for the first time, and Roland has to start his journey all over again. That's why he had to start from the desert. That's where the "Gunslinger" started. He keeps his own little universe safe, doing this. His universe which is nothing more than 7 books (and who are we to know that our universe is bigger or more important than that?). When people stop reading the DT series, Roland's journey will end. The Beams will break. The Tower will fall. That little universe will be destroyed and forgotten for ever.

[LadyHitchhiker]

I think there's a simple answer to the original question of this thread. I think he had to return to the desert in the first book because in the keystone world, Stephen King is the dark tower and Roland is bound to his books. He'll always have to repeat the journey because the actual truth is he's a fictional character, and someone will always be reading his story. I think the 'Dark Tower' gave roland the horn, not so much to reasure Roland that there may be an end to his journey, but to give us (the readers) a ray of hope for Roland so we won't be as outraged and horrified by the truth.

That's close to what I believe.
That's what I wrote in the ending thread:

It'd make sense much more to me, if we hadn't given the hope that the next time maybe would be the last, with the horn thing. I'd like to see Roland as a man who holds the Tower and thus the universes safe, by living the same journey again and again. Roland could be a creature that holds everything together. No salvation for him... but only for the Tower and the universes.

That would make sense to me for another reason, also. This is a story about stories. When I finish the last book, someone somewhere in the world is picking the "gunslinger" to read for the first time, and Roland has to start his journey all over again. That's why he had to start from the desert. That's where the "Gunslinger" started. He keeps his own little universe safe, doing this. His universe which is nothing more than 7 books (and who are we to know that our universe is bigger or more important than that?). When people stop reading the DT series, Roland's journey will end. The Beams will break. The Tower will fall. That little universe will be destroyed and forgotten for ever.

Very intriguing idea. Reminds me of the Neverending Story (one of my favorite books and movies of all time).

"If you have never spent whole afternoons with burning ears and rumpled hair, forgetting the world around you over a book, forgetting cold and hunger. If you have never read secretly under the bedclothes with a flashlight, because your father or mother or some other well-meaning person has switched off the lamp on the plausible ground that it was time to sleep because you had to get up so early.
"If you have never wept bitter tears because a wonderful story has come to an end and you must take your leave of the characters with whom you have shared so many adventures, whom you have loved and admired, for whom you have hoped and feared, and without whose company life seems empty and meaningless.
"If such things have not been part of your own experience, you probably won’t understand what Bastian did next."

[lisaki]

one of my favorite books and movies of all time

mine too

[stone, rose, unfound door]

I've always thought Roland had to start it all back from the desert because the desert is a sort of introduction to meeting Jake. After he meets Jake, he has to decide not to let him fall to his death. I thought that was his biggest mistake and that was the main thing the Tower wanted him to do right.

[Brice]

So could he have redeemed himself if he had shot Jake at the way station or thrown him to the slow mutants to avoid Jake falling?

[Jean]

So could he have redeemed himself if he had shot Jake at the way station or thrown him to the slow mutants to avoid Jake falling?

He had already done that, in the past loops.

(By the way, now I hope he'll repair Shardik instead of killing him. Giant bears are no less scarce than gunslingers, I assure you.)

[Bumbler19]

If so, then there must be a world in which the Tower is destroyed. That would mean that the Multiverse does not exist.

pwned

(By the way, now I hope he'll repair Shardik instead of killing him. Giant bears are no less scarce than gunslingers, I assure you.)

What significant part do you think Shardik could have played? he couldn't very well have joined them on their journey. Maybe Shardik could have done some repairing of the beam from his location.... being a guardian and all. If a guardian was working effectively the story may have not been as dramatic or long. Then again, maybe more than he would need to be working to have a significant enough impact on the intact of the beam.

[stone, rose, unfound door]

If so, then there must be a world in which the Tower is destroyed. That would mean that the Multiverse does not exist.

pwned

(By the way, now I hope he'll repair Shardik instead of killing him. Giant bears are no less scarce than gunslingers, I assure you.)

What significant part do you think Shardik could have played? he couldn't very well have joined them on their journey. Maybe Shardik could have done some repairing of the beam from his location.... being a guardian and all. If a guardian was working effectively the story may have not been as dramatic or long. Then again, maybe more than he would need to be working to have a significant enough impact on the intact of the beam.

I think you both have a very good point here: if Roland had repaired Shardik, there's no obvious reason for Shardik not to take care of the Beam. Maybe Shardik was mad because of a sequence of events that had happened previously and that were illogical (killing a kid, making a man fall to his death on the A-train tracks, though I'm not too sure about that one).
Still, I believe Jake is not THE key to salvation but one in a multiple set of keys Roland didn't get in the series we read.

[Brice]

I think his salvation and damnation are maybe one and the same.

[Jean]

Never expected my obviously jocular Shardik statement to provoke any kind of discussion... and Brice, as an old-fashioned bear I believe that salvation and damnation, his or anybody's, are very different, dialectics or no dialectics.

[Sickrose]

I think the horn of Eld shows the past had been different but I dont necessarily think it's only Roland who has to change before his loop ends. I think the world isnt ready. At the end of the series the world is still a mess - another Crimson king or Farson could come along therefore presenting another threat to the Dark Tower.

The world has to change as well to create a safe environment for the Tower.