That Thing, You Can Only Talk About If You've Finished the Series

[Letti]

ah. that never even occurred to me. :stupidturtle:

Nevermind, I am spoiler-junkie, that's it.
(Anyway I have edited the title of the thread now it's more detailed.)

So... Roland's body is just the puppet. That's inside that's what matters.
You know like in the Little Prince: "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye."

[Letti]

I suppose an argument could be made that he gets closer every time. We only know for sure he started in the desert this time.

Just like in a play station game... sounds interesting.
Anyway I think he always starts in the desert. He can get a new chance but he can't get everything (he can't get closer and closer)... because this whole loop thing it's a rescue and a damn at the same time.
Moreover I feel the desert is a really hard symbol in Roland's life that's why he has to start there all the time.

[obscurejude]

So... Roland's body is just the puppet. That's inside that's what matters.
You know like in the Little Prince: "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye."

I think you're right in regards to the series Letti, but I have a real problem with the body not being given an account epistemologically. Like my post about the doors on the beach, my concern rests in Descartes' notion that we are simply "ghosts inhabiting a machine." With that paradigm, virtue is only idealogical, and a vast dichotomy between the body and the soul is created. I'm not good with dichotomies, but I think you are right dear.

[obscurejude]

There is a lot of religious imagery in the Gunslinger that I think plays a part in this question, though I'm not sure its explicit.

The desert is an apotheosis (Biblical temptation of Christ)

There is a sacrifice- Jake (Even Walter calls him Roland's Isaac)

They have palaver at a golgotha "Place of the Skull"- The Greek name of Calvary where Christ was crucified.

Jesus also began his public ministry at age 30. There isn't much about him before that time, except in Luke 2 where he is around 12-14. The only account we have of Roland is a similar age in Wizard and Glass, and then not much else until he's an adult.

I think all of these things are connected, but I'm still working on how exactly. As a religion/philosophy major in college, the symbolism was noticeable to me at every turn of the narrative. I (and Jean) really think that Roland is very similar to medieval portraits of saint hood. Browning's Roland could also be interpreted this way.

[skoldpadda]

Thanks for the edit, Letti. Glad to see that the thread has taken off.

This is a tough question to answer, I guess, because throughout the books people refer to how old Roland is. However, nothing (or very little) from his past is given between the battle of Jericho Hill up until the beginning of The Gunslinger. The only passage I can think of that refers directly to what he was doing with that time is when Roland was explaining Eddie, Susannah, and Jake that the world is "growing" and that it took him the equivalent of 20 years to reach the sea.

So wait a second. We have a gunslinger who's incredibly old, but a series of books about his life leaves a gap that could be anywhere from 20 to 40 years. Perhaps he's been looping for that long? Maybe the quest happened the first time when he was a very young man and he's been getting older since.

The obvious logistical flaw here would be that Roland's lack of digits would lead him to ask where they went, and thereby recall his quest.

I don't know. I've confused myself too far to go back. That's why I posted the question here.

[Ka-tet]

There is a lot of religious imagery in the Gunslinger that I think plays a part in this question, though I'm not sure its explicit.

The desert is an apotheosis (Biblical temptation of Christ)

There is a sacrifice- Jake (Even Walter calls him Roland's Isaac)

They have palaver at a golgotha "Place of the Skull"- The Greek name of Calvary where Christ was crucified.

Jesus also began his public ministry at age 30. There isn't much about him before that time, except in Luke 2 where he is around 12-14. The only account we have of Roland is a similar age in Wizard and Glass, and then not much else until he's an adult.

I think all of these things are connected, but I'm still working on how exactly. As a religion/philosophy major in college, the symbolism was noticeable to me at every turn of the narrative. I (and Jean) really think that Roland is very similar to medieval portraits of saint hood. Browning's Roland could also be interpreted this way.

Thats very very interesting, i would very much like to hear more on this. Bring us more soon please OJ!

[Brainslinger]

I don't think the length of time mentioned includes the loop. I.e. We have the 20 year journey that happened before the loop. The later books confuse things a bit more by stating that Roland has been wandering for thousands of years, but I think much of that was due to the irregularities in time, i.e. time speeding up/slowing down etc. And again I think a lot of that happened before the loop.

Of course, if we include the loop as well, he has been wandering much longer. However he is unaware (except possibly somewhere in his undermind), and on his return to the desert he is essentially reset back to the age and physical condition he was then. Just as well or he could end up dropping the horn again. Wouldn't that be ironic?

[LadyHitchhiker]

This makes me think that Roland has never really ever been in the world where the Tower truly resides,

Very interesting theory there, we could start a whole thread one weather or not Roland has ever actually seen the Tower.

i love new concepts...

[LadyHitchhiker]

But as for my vote, I think the answer is yes and no..

Anybody ever see the movie "The Outsiders"? that story reminds me a little of Roland and his quest....

[LadyHitchhiker]

I wondered this too..

Does he become whole again?

[fernandito]

Then how did Roland age ten years?

During their palaver at the Golgotha, when Walter was sending visions of the Tower/Multiverse to Roland, they actually slipped out of the space/time continuim (sp?). So a night became 10 years for the gunslinger.

[Ves'Ka Gan]

I think Walter says "The room at the top of the Tower is empty...I know it is" the same way someone would say "I know there is no God".

He believes it, at least on the outer level, and it is an unsettling thing to say to someone who feels differently. Walter is a greasy cat. Let's not forget that!

[The Lady of Shadows]

NICE title lettie!

[theBeamisHome]

I just finished the story last night for the first time... and while I wasn't completely disappointed I'm led to speculate on why.. And I just realized (just now really) that throughout the whole series Roland continuously mentions being damned. And I imagine that's why he's thrown on this loop. But the first thing I thought was that maybe it's another classical story of hubris... like Oedipus Rex. Roland had the audacity to believe that he would be able to reach the top of the Tower when even the "immortal" Red King couldn't. He tore down everything in his path and even condemmed quite a few to death who were loyal to him and his purpose. I could almost believe that he is in Purgatory... Which I read in The Divine Comedy can have punishments just as bad if not worse than Hell. Him being given the horn (and for all we know he's given one more thing he needs each time he makes the trip) signifies progress made.

So if this is the case... who keeps sending him back? Do we think it's the Tower itself? My ever so humble opinion is that it is Gan himself that keeps pushing Roland back. There are many things that Roland could be being punished for... but it seems to me that his pride is his downfall.

I had something else (that I thought was pretty good) but it's slipped my mind. I'd love to hear (read) your comments though... Maybe it'll come back to me.

Ah! I remember... I know this is a big deal but I do think I remember Roland or someone saying in the book that Ka doesn't control all... so....

[Daghain]

I'd be willing to believe it's Gan, as well. I think he has to keep making the loop until he gets it right, and the horn is a sign he did at least something right.

[theBeamisHome]

Maybe showing love and compassion for his new ka-tet was something he did right?

[Daghain]

Maybe. I mean, he does talk later in the series about how he has learned to care about other people. Maybe that was one of the things he needed to learn to move on. That would tie in with the horn, kind of, because his friend Cuthbert had it last.

[Ves'Ka Gan]

I said no. I think that its possible, and I think the two loops we know of started there, but I am not sure this is the case everytime. If anything after the Desert is in his control to change, and the things before the desert change, too...I think the loop could start further back. I am not sure it could start too much further forward though...

[Darkthoughts]

This is one of a multitude of reasons that I think DT is so great, because you can reread it countless times and discover something new - or reread to focus on a particular point or concept and discover new depths in the story.

The first time I read the series, I must admit that I didn't give much thought to the fact that Roland's feelings of guilt and damnation were foreshadowing the ending, I was just so caught up in the more immediate gratification I got from the adventure.

When I finished book 7 I lent it to my sister straight away because I had to discuss the end with someone who loved the series as much as me, but also because she has a very different way of looking at things than I do. She was not at all surprised by the loop and said, "There really wasn't any other way it could have ended." And I then thought....of course!

Yes, I'd agree that it is Gan sending Roland back each time, it almost makes me wonder - talking of purgatory - if the Tower is never infact in danger each time, that it was endangered the first time Roland completed the quest - but that he achieved his goal in such a ruthless manner that it contradicted the basic principle of The White, so although Gan had needed Roland's help, he almost couldn't accept it in the manner in which it had been given. So, at that point in time (that Roland originally climbed to the top of the Tower) Gan removed Roland and this passage of time, encapsulated it and stowed it out of real time, and forces Roland to repeat it until he gets it right, ie: in the true fashion of a gunslinger of The White, rather than mirroring the agents of the Red.

[theBeamisHome]

hmmm.... i like that... only if everyone that Roland meets on his subsequent times on the loop isn't real... Like Gan creates another universe for Roland to roam around in and try again. That way Roland is the only one being retested.. and that means that the Tower isn't in danger in the real universe.. but i guess that is what would make it his purgatory, right? and what do we think happens when Roland does get it right? does he reach the top room and discover Gan behind the door? or is him getting it right not pursuing it so fiercely at all? i'm more inclined to believe that Roland would succeed if he stopped sacrificing everyone to get to the Tower. which could mean that he would get there anyway for doing the right thing... or that his ka is not to get there but, as you said, act in the way of the White... stand and be true.

[Daghain]

Lisa always comes up with some good ideas.

[damiano]

I am going with yes, it always starts in the desert since as several other people mentioned, it's suggested that is the case.

But this bothers me too. If this is indeed the Resumption point, how did he end up with the horn this time? That implies a change from years/decade/centuries earlier (since time is funny). Further, if the ultimate end is Redemption, it seems that the overwhelming majority of Roland's sins occur long before that point in the desert (Tull, matricide, etc.). The succeeded events, with the exception of dropping Jake appear to have been mostly a redemptive path already. One could even argue that dropping Jake was necessary for redemption in a twisted way.

To me, Roland's choice was made when he chose not to save Susan. It's clearly stated- he chose the Tower and renounced her to a life with someone else (before he learned the real consequences of that decision). Once that decision was made, the real atrocities and consequences began and continued because the only other choice was to "cry off". The only other possible changing point I could see is if he were to stop after Blue Heaven and the beams were restored, but I doubt even were he able to cry off then for his own purposes, he would be cursed by the knowledge of all those who died so that he could get to the Tower.

Every time I read these books, it feels like there is a simple point I continually miss; something that should be obvious and apparent that ties it all together. I suppose, like Roland, I am doomed to endless resumption until I figure it out. Maybe that, in itself, is the point.

[LadyHitchhiker]

"it had been years, centuries, milleniums since he had heard the high speech"

this is a quote of when our dear Lazarus out of Gunslinger goes over and speaks to Roland at the honky tonk in Tull.

Has Roland really been cycling this long and this is a burst of memory blurting through his head all of a sudden?

[Brainslinger]

That wasn't the loop, I don't think. First of all, that event in Tull happened before the loop. Secondly, if it was a memory from the last cycle, it would have only been a relatively short period of time from his own point of view since he last heard the High speech, if you think about it. (I'm assuming the Tower spoke to him in the high speech before he went through the door?) That being said, the memory could be so vague that he might seem longer to him, so there is that.

I think he was just referring to how long he had been on the trail, i.e. how long it was since he had split with others who spoke the high speech. It could literally be that long considering the softness of time in the world at that point (although he probably wouldn't have experienced it, as time would speed up or jump around him.) I think it's an exaggeration, just to show how long it felt to him.

[Sam]

The world had moved on. Time had as well. My guess is that by the time we meet Roland in The Gunslinger, he may have been on his quest for centuries, even millenia.