Walter General Discussion: The Gunslinger **spoilers

[MonteGss]

People will read what they want to I guess.
I've read the series many times and I've never come away from it thinking there were such glaring inconsistencies as you claim. I acknowledge that the original Gunslinger had Marten and Walter as two "separate" people but there never was a time in the rest of the series where I felt as you do.

[ManOfWesternesse]

Cyber is right here (Ouch! That hurt! )
Seriously though - yes. Had King gone on to revise 2,3 & 4 (as we once thought he would do - and as he himself once thought he might?), then of course he would have fixed this to agree with 1,5,6,& 7. But that will never happen now. Personally I'm content enough to ignore the connundrum - it doesn't rank high in the greater scheme for me.

[Wuducynn]

Even in the revised he still thinks of them as separate folk with the caveat thrown in that they might be the same...I'll have to find the part when I get around to it. But its there. I don't really view it as an inconsistancy...nothing compared to the one between Wolves and DT7, that is off-topic of this thread. But thats a REAL inconsistancy and it doesn't bother me.

[CyberGhostface]

People will read what they want to I guess.
I've read the series many times and I've never come away from it thinking there were such glaring inconsistencies as you claim. I acknowledge that the original Gunslinger had Marten and Walter as two "separate" people but there never was a time in the rest of the series where I felt as you do.

I'm not reading into anything that's not there already. There are numerous occasions when Walter is referred to as being dead and being a seperate character from Marten.

Is it the end of the world? Of course not. I even managed to look the other way before DT7 came out because I hoped in vain that King knew what he was doing. But in the end...what real purpose was there in resurrecting Walter?

[MonteGss]

People will read what they want to I guess.
I've read the series many times and I've never come away from it thinking there were such glaring inconsistencies as you claim. I acknowledge that the original Gunslinger had Marten and Walter as two "separate" people but there never was a time in the rest of the series where I felt as you do.

I'm not reading into anything that's not there already. There are numerous occasions when Walter is referred to as being dead and being a seperate character from Marten.

Is it the end of the world? Of course not. I even managed to look the other way before DT7 came out because I hoped in vain that King knew what he was doing. But in the end...what real purpose was there in resurrecting Walter?

I guess I am interpreting the occasions you speak of differently is all. Besides Roland assuming that Walter and Marten were two different people in the original Gunslinger, I didn't read anything that suggested that in any of the other novels. If anyone has any specific passage that I can go back and refer to, that would help me understand probably.
Otherwise, I guess we will just have to cordially disagree.

[CyberGhostface]

I don't have the specific quotes and pages with me but I've already pointed out the scenes and what books they've appeared in.

In Drawing of the Three, its in the Jack Mort chapters, and Roland's thinking of all the different wizards he's known. He mentions Walter, Marten and Flagg.

In Wizard and Glass, its when he's introducing his story to the ka-tet, and he compares Rhea's brand of evil by comparing her to Walter and Marten as seperate figures.

And there are a couple more. I might have the books as text files on my computer, I'll look into them later.

EDIT: I have them. I'll get the quotes up later tonight hopefully.

[Wuducynn]

Like I asked previously, how is Roland thinking of Marten, Walter and Flagg an inconsistancy in the story-line? Walter O'Dim is a shape-shifter afterall and he has different personas.

[Wuducynn]

Oh and in the revised, he wonders about whether they were the same...but isn't sure. Still no inconsistancy there.

[CyberGhostface]

Like I asked previously, how is Roland thinking of Marten, Walter and Flagg an inconsistancy in the story-line? Walter O'Dim is a shape-shifter afterall and he has different personas.

How come then in 5-7 Roland recognizes them as being one person who just goes under different names?

Oh and in the revised, he wonders about whether they were the same...but isn't sure. Still no inconsistancy there.

No, at the end Walter reveals himself to be Marten.

"Marten. You never left. You merely changed."
"At your service."

Its only in the beginning when he talks to Jake is when he's doubtful...but even then he suspects something when he mentions how he never saw them togeether.

The only thing he isn't SURE about when the story ends is whether or not its really Walter's skeleton at the campfire. But even then he's all but positive. "But is it really you? I have my doubts, Marten-that-was." There's no doubt in his mind that Walter = Marten.

[Wuducynn]

Like I asked previously, how is Roland thinking of Marten, Walter and Flagg an inconsistancy in the story-line? Walter O'Dim is a shape-shifter afterall and he has different personas.

How come then in 5-7 Roland recognizes them as being one person who just goes under different names?

Oh and in the revised, he wonders about whether they were the same...but isn't sure. Still no inconsistancy there.

No, at the end Walter reveals himself to be Marten.

"Marten. You never left. You merely changed."
"At your service."

Its only in the beginning when he talks to Jake is when he's doubtful...but even then he suspects something when he mentions how he never saw them togeether.

The only thing he isn't SURE about when the story ends is whether or not its really Walter's skeleton at the campfire. But even then he's all but positive. "But is it really you? I have my doubts, Marten-that-was." There's no doubt in his mind that Walter = Marten.

It sure seems to be that he is not sure who is who at the end of The Gunslinger...whether Marten was Walter or whether Walter was Marten. He just said "You never left. You merely changed." That isn't a tried and true statement of his certainty of anything at that point. Apparently towards the end of the series he is sure that Walter was the true personality behind them.

[Wuducynn]

I do want you to know that I am fully aware that originally King meant for Walter and Marten to be separate characters. But I think within the story it doesn't make it an inconsistancy for them to be all a part of Walter the Sorcerer who was also Legion and Flagg.

[CyberGhostface]

He is aware that Walter and Marten are the same person...maybe not the specifics of Walter's identity crisis, but enough that they aren't seperate people.

Anyway, here are some quotes from II - IV.

First off, the Argument. Which I'll admit by itself isn't a big thing as its no big deal in the end. Still...

Marten, a much greater sorcerer than Walter (who, unknown to
Roland's father, is Marten's ally)

And in the book itself...

The gunslinger had known magicians, enchanters, and alchemists in his time...One of these men had been a creature the gunslinger
believed to be a demon himself, a creature that pretended to be a man and called itself Flagg.... Then there had been the man in black.
And there had been Marten.

More arguments...

...Marten, a much greater sorcerer than Walter...

Walter, the man in black, who pretended friendship with Roland's father
but who actually served Marten, a great sorcerer.

And when Roland thinks about the people he knows...

Neither Eldred Jonas nor the crone on the hill had been of
Marten's stature—nor even of Walter's—
when it came to evil, but they had been
evil enough.

And of course, I'm not including the other contradictions such as Walter being dead when Roland considers him to be alive at the end of the previous book. Now granted, none of these are HUGE inconsistencies. But they always stick out to me whenever I reread them. And its a pointless change as well. I mean, what was so important that Walter had to return? Its not as if King did anything notable with the character.

And keep in mind this is just what I found when I did a quick PDF search. I remember there being more.

[Wuducynn]

He is aware that Walter and Marten are the same person...maybe not the specifics of Walter's identity crisis, but enough that they aren't seperate people.

I just pointed out that Roland saying that is not necessarily saying he is aware they are the same person, from my point of view.

Anyway, here are some quotes from II - IV.

First off, the Argument. Which I'll admit by itself isn't a big thing as its no big deal in the end. Still...

Marten, a much greater sorcerer than Walter (who, unknown to
Roland's father, is Marten's ally)

And in the book itself...

The gunslinger had known magicians, enchanters, and alchemists in his time...One of these men had been a creature the gunslinger
believed to be a demon himself, a creature that pretended to be a man and called itself Flagg.... Then there had been the man in black.
And there had been Marten.

More arguments...

...Marten, a much greater sorcerer than Walter...

Walter, the man in black, who pretended friendship with Roland's father
but who actually served Marten, a great sorcerer.

And when Roland thinks about the people he knows...

Neither Eldred Jonas nor the crone on the hill had been of
Marten's stature—nor even of Walter's—
when it came to evil, but they had been
evil enough.

And of course, I'm not including the other contradictions such as Walter being dead when Roland considers him to be alive at the end of the previous book. Now granted, none of these are HUGE inconsistencies. But they always stick out to me whenever I reread them. And its a pointless change as well. I mean, what was so important that Walter had to return? Its not as if King did anything notable with the character.

And keep in mind this is just what I found when I did a quick PDF search. I remember there being more.

I'm aware of all of these and like I said above, within the story its not a big inconsistancy for Roland at the beginning to be unsure that they are same person and to be more sure as the series progresses. All of those quotes just point to the fact that he wasn't sure and then became more so.

[CyberGhostface]

I don't see how Roland couldn't know at the end of the Revised. The Revised version says that Roland long suspected something was up between the two, and the revelation at the end just confirms it for him. Maybe not knowing if he's dead or if the skeleton is a ruse...but I don't know how Roland could not know that the two are the same. There's nothing to indicate it.

Then in Books II-IV, he's back to thinking that they are seperate and dead. Then in Book 5 he's suddenly aware of them.

It'd be one thing if it was a gradual realization but he goes from Step 3 to Step 1 to Step 6.

It would have been better had King just revealed it in a later book instead of shoehorning it into the first.

[Wuducynn]

I don't see how Roland couldn't know at the end of the Revised. The Revised version says that Roland long suspected something was up between the two, and the revelation at the end just confirms it for him. Maybe not knowing if he's dead or if the skeleton is a ruse...but I don't know how Roland could not know that the two are the same. There's nothing to indicate it.

Suspecting something and knowing it for sure are two different things. To me Roland saying the "Marten. You never left. You merely changed."" just means that he thought Marten was using magic to look like someone else. Not necessarily that he was the same person as Walter.

Then in Books II-IV, he's back to thinking that they are seperate and dead. Then in Book 5 he's suddenly aware of them.

It'd be one thing if it was a gradual realization but he goes from Step 3 to Step 1 to Step 6.

It would have been better had King just revealed it in a later book instead of shoehorning it into the first.

Again, I don't see him as knowing for sure anything about Marten really being Walter, so I don't see it as a shoehorn. So he's not "back to thinking that they are separate and dead" in II - IV just still not sure what the relationship is between them or if they were the same.

[CyberGhostface]

So does Roland think that person who he was chasing was Marten merely pretending to be Walter, and that Walter is somewhere else, or is it vice versa?

Because if anything that just makes the situation more confusing and I don't think that was ever King's intention, to leave doubt in the mind of the reader or Roland for that matter.

[Wuducynn]

So does Roland think that person who he was chasing was Marten merely pretending to be Walter, and that Walter is somewhere else, or is it vice versa?

Because if anything that just makes the situation more confusing and I don't think that was ever King's intention, to leave doubt in the mind of the reader or Roland for that matter.

To me its saying Roland thinks it was Marten all along, looking like Walter. So he's still not sure at that point if they're the same or different or related etc.

[Truth]

can anyone think of a valid reason to bring in Walter to have his story end the way it did besides to clear up a loose end i think Walter O' Dim got shortchanged and could of had a much bigger villainous role in the story

[Brainslinger]

can anyone think of a valid reason to bring in Walter to have his story end the way it did besides to clear up a loose end i think Walter O' Dim got shortchanged and could of had a much bigger villainous role in the story

I don't think he was particularly short changed as a villain in The Gunslinger though. He is kept as an enigmatic presence, probably at his most powerful and manipulative.

Spoiler:

If you're referring to Walter's role in the whole series, which I imagine is the case, many people think this. Not everyone who attends this part of the forum has read the other books though, best to discuss that in the
The Dark Tower forum.

[eldsai]

Jeeze ..... no wonder that I was confused about marten/maerlyn/flagg throughout the story

I thought it went Maerlyn/Marten then Flagg/Walter who was Maerlyns underling apprentice guy so then once they were just one I didnt know what was going on.

Spoiler:

I believe under Fedic in book 7 a ghost yells to Roland that his mother sucked off John Farson so wouldnt it mean that he was Walter too ?

[Ka-tet]

What did walter do to the people in tull to make them like that, what did he show alice(i think that was her name) when she spoke the word(ninteen i belive)?

Cry pardon if this is obvious, it has been a while and ive only read the serise once, and i am planning a re-read soon.

[Brainslinger]

I think it was mainly the indoctrination of Sylvia Pittston,(or is is Pitston? The big well endowed preacher lady is who I mean>) that made the folks of Tull rise up more than anything. I.e. Walter seduced the lady, possibly bewitching and impregnating her in the process (although I have my doubts concerning the last.), causing her to rally the people of Tull. I'm not sure why they were so easily persuaded mind, so I guess a spell might have been involved there. I think maybe they were bored with their existence, wound up and just needing a shove to set them off somewhere, and the preacher lady gave them a focus. Or it could be a combination of these things. I think the resurrection of Nort might be part of what put them on edge too.

As for what Walter told Allie via Nort, we will never know for certain.

Spoiler:

There are however, certain events that happen within the last three books which shed new light on the nature of the multiverse. I think maybe Walter told her some of that, and her mind just couldn't take it. Much in the way a certain wandering man found it difficult to cope when thumbing through a certain book and finding out certain revelations concerning himself. I won't spoil it further, but if you've read Wolves of the Calla, you'll know who I mean.

[LadyHitchhiker]

Maybe all he did was tell her that Roland would come into his life, and that made her believe.

[LemurJones]

Well... this is just speculation... but Alice I think was starting to fall in love with Roland.

Spoiler:

So maybe he only has to show her one thing... like the man she cares for letting a boy fall, just to talk to a man about a building.

Or maybe he shows her everything bad that Roland has done in the name of the Tower.

Or maybe he shows her a pregnant sixteen year old burning at the stake and calling his name.

Maybe all he did was make her realize that loving Roland means dying sooner, or dying later. In which case, maybe she chose not to go through everything he would do or let happen to her. If it's between being left behind in a murdered town like Tull, having a horrific journey that ends in suffering and death, or ending it quickly... well, I can see why she'd want to end it quickly.

[The Lady of Shadows]

i always thought he told nort everything he told roland when they finally met. then nort told allie when she said nineteen to him. and she couldn't handle it. it didn't bother nort any because he was already dead and after coming back from that, he was a little crazy.