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Thread: Walter General Discussion: The Gunslinger **spoilers

  1. #26
    Constant Reader Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts's Avatar

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    Not

    (Btw, I edited my post while you were replying, but not the part you quoted )

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    Citizen of Gilead TerribleT is on a distinguished road TerribleT's Avatar

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    My comments from an earlier post...

    He says "I am sworn by my father's guns, and by the the treachery of Marten" during the prophecy of the oracle, which is also where he is told of his choice to save Jake, or to allow him to die.

    Some, gunslnger, live on blood. Even, I understand, the blood of young boys.
    May he not be spared?
    Yes.
    How?
    Cease, gunslinger......
    I'm sworn by my fathers guns.....


    While he is speaking with the man in black, nearing the end of the long dark night, he says, "Understand what? My Purpose? You know that. To find the Tower is my purpose. I'm sworn."

    Also during his palaver with the man in black he learns that to continue on his mission he must"Start wwest. Go to the sea...." This, as I've stated before, is also where he learns of his ability to draw, and of the Prisoner, and The Lady of the Shadows, and of his unique mind.

    He MUST catch the man in black, in order to continue his quest for the tower. In order to do so, he must sacrifice Jake. It's really not a matter of habit, it's completely a matter of choice, and his internal struggle over this is repeatedly brought to light during The Gunslinger.

  3. #28
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    But everything Walter says cannot be believed, he is by his very nature a trickster.
    I wonder, if like the little bald doctors, Walter cannot tell an outright lie if asked a direct question - but that he can still phrase the answer in such a way as to make it ambiguous if the question is not specific enough.

    I think this quote you used is the best illustration:
    Some, gunslnger, live on blood. Even, I understand, the blood of young boys.
    May he not be spared?
    Yes.
    How?
    Cease, gunslinger......
    I'm sworn by my fathers guns.....
    Here I think Walter is being truthful - without divulging the whole truth.

    The very act of not letting Jake fall would be considered "ceasing" the quest in Roland's eyes, which Walter intuits all too well, which is why Walter chooses to word the question in this way. Walter knows that this is part of what damns Roland and stops him from finding peace at the Tower, so of course he would want to encourage him to drop Jake (and kill the people of Tull in a similar trap he lays).

    But Roland does not specifically word his question - "Can I still reach the Tower if I save the boy?" To which I believe the answer would also be "Yes."

  4. #29
    Citizen of Gilead TerribleT is on a distinguished road TerribleT's Avatar

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    [quote=Darkthoughts;88112]
    I think this quote you used is the best illustration:
    Some, gunslnger, live on blood. Even, I understand, the blood of young boys.
    May he not be spared?
    Yes.
    How?
    Cease, gunslinger......
    I'm sworn by my fathers guns.....
    QUOTE]

    That quote is actually from his meeting with the oracle.

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    Citizen of Gilead TerribleT is on a distinguished road TerribleT's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    But everything Walter says cannot be believed, he is by his very nature a trickster.
    I wonder, if like the little bald doctors, Walter cannot tell an outright lie if asked a direct question - but that he can still phrase the answer in such a way as to make it ambiguous if the question is not specific enough.

    I think this quote you used is the best illustration:
    Some, gunslnger, live on blood. Even, I understand, the blood of young boys.
    May he not be spared?
    Yes.
    How?
    Cease, gunslinger......
    I'm sworn by my fathers guns.....
    Here I think Walter is being truthful - without divulging the whole truth.

    The very act of not letting Jake fall would be considered "ceasing" the quest in Roland's eyes, which Walter intuits all too well, which is why Walter chooses to word the question in this way. Walter knows that this is part of what damns Roland and stops him from finding peace at the Tower, so of course he would want to encourage him to drop Jake (and kill the people of Tull in a similar trap he lays).

    But Roland does not specifically word his question - "Can I still reach the Tower if I save the boy?" To which I believe the answer would also be "Yes."

    See, the part that drives me completely insane about that whole line of thinking, is that there seems to be some assumption that if Roland doesn't let Jake drop, and follow the man in black, somehow he'll just accidently stumble his way to the doors. Time was moving in Eddie and Susannah's worlds. If he doesn't get to Eddie in time, Eddie may or may not be alive. Odetta/Detta may not be alive. The idea that somehow he can just blow off this sacfice, and still get to the tower, when soooo much would change just boggles my mind. There is no possible way that he can NOT drop Jake without SIGNIFICANTLY changing the entire story, and everyone here just seems to act like it's no big deal. *shrug* fuck it, he'll find another way to get everything else accomplished, don't drop the boy. It's all conjecture. This one act does define Roland, his quest for the tower, how seriously he takes it, and what he's willing to sacrifice. If he hadn't done what, in his view, was necessary, then he would be betraying his father's guns, and eveything he stood for. I just find it impossible to look at this situation and indulge myself in the fantasy that if only he saved the boy :projectile vomiting: somehow everything would work out just fine.

  6. #31
    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    I trend towards T's way of thinking on this one. Not dropping Jake would be to "cease" because it would result in Roland not finding the Tower. Again, I plan to re-read that portion of DT-1 to clarify my position, but I thought at some point when he was with the oracle it became clear to Roland's mind that without "the sacrifice" he'd have not been able to draw Eddie & Susannah and do what he did with Mort.

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    Citizen of Gilead TerribleT is on a distinguished road TerribleT's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by R_of_G View Post
    I trend towards T's way of thinking on this one. Not dropping Jake would be to "cease" because it would result in Roland not finding the Tower. Again, I plan to re-read that portion of DT-1 to clarify my position, but I thought at some point when he was with the oracle it became clear to Roland's mind that without "the sacrifice" he'd have not been able to draw Eddie & Susannah and do what he did with Mort.
    The quote that Lisa sited was actually the one from the oracle.

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    I think the quote serves the same purpose even being from the oracle

    Yes, if Roland doesn't drop Jake the quest/journey to the Tower would be completely different...but thats the whole point.

    What then, in your minds, does Roland need to do to find salvation at the Tower? And if you don't believe he will, what do you make of the final pages of DT7 where it hints so strongly that he shall?

  9. #34
    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    What then, in your minds, does Roland need to do to find salvation at the Tower? And if you don't believe he will, what do you make of the final pages of DT7 where it hints so strongly that he shall?
    I think you know I don't think he needs to find salvation. As to the hint that he might, dunno, wishful thinking on King's part? I suppose he could find personal salvation in the event that he were to "retire" and have progeny to whom he could pass on the duty of protecting the Tower. I just don't see the Tower ever being made "permanently" safe, so there is always a need for a Roland.

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    Yes...and no I think I've said before that I agree that the quest for the Tower looks to be a metaphor for the eternal struggle between good and evil. Where we disagree is that I believe the quest is eternal, but the players are not.

    I think that one day Roland will find salvation and the CK will be utterly obliterated (having those eyes still lingering there bothers me ) but then another two agents of the Random and the Purpose will step up and take their place, with their own story of course - albeit one that ultimately concerns the Tower.

    Each quest I believe will last many lifetimes, creating myths throughout all worlds the way these things do.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    Yes...and no I think I've said before that I agree that the quest for the Tower looks to be a metaphor for the eternal struggle between good and evil. Where we disagree is that I believe the quest is eternal, but the players are not.

    I think that one day Roland will find salvation and the CK will be utterly obliterated (having those eyes still lingering there bothers me ) but then another two agents of the Random and the Purpose will step up and take their place, with their own story of course - albeit one that ultimately concerns the Tower.

    Each quest I believe will last many lifetimes, creating myths throughout all worlds the way these things do.
    That seems reasonable. I actually kind of like my idea of Roland passing the duty on to his hypothetical progeny, but it certainly doesn't have to always be the Eld as the guardians of the White.

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    Unless theres something Rosalita didn't tell us?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    Unless theres something Rosalita didn't tell us?
    That's a nice thought.

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    Citizen of Gilead TerribleT is on a distinguished road TerribleT's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    And if you don't believe he will, what do you make of the final pages of DT7 where it hints so strongly that he shall?
    It's been a long time since I read The Dark Tower, so I'm going to have to just defer to you on that question at this point. Like I said in a different thread, I'm re-reading the series, and if I can ever find a way to get through the Sodding Wastelands I will finish the series and see what my feelings are at that point.

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    Sodding Wastelands Was that the working title?

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    YES!!! you didn't know?!?!?!?!?!?! Then he decided to do Kansas instead of the UK.
    It's stressful being an other. ~ Juliet

    I believe there ought to be a Constitutional Amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. ~ Crash Davis

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    What I am wondering... if Roland had not talked to the MiB, would he have known what to do with Mort?
    Flip-flop, hippety-hop, offa your rocker and over the top, life’s a fiction and the world’s a lie, so put on some Creedence and let’s get high.- The Great Sage and Eminent Junkie

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    He didn't know what to do with Mort anyway - it was all "Gunslinger Instinct".

    He Had to catch the Man In Black - He Who is Legion. He Had to Make the Sacrifice - the TRUE Innocent - the stray at the side of the road.

    He CHOSE the quest.

    And in doing so Chose the Pursuit.

    The sacrifice must be made, the quarry must be caught. Whether his name is Walter or Marten or Randall or Linoge or Pennywise or .... Jack Mort... Death - but NOT FOR YOU...

    As we have been told time and time agian - it's not the destination - but the journey.

    Originally Posted by Darkthoughts
    Yes...and no I think I've said before that I agree that the quest for the Tower looks to be a metaphor for the eternal struggle between good and evil. Where we disagree is that I believe the quest is eternal, but the players are not.
    Except for Roland.

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    I don't think Roland will be stuck in the loop for eternity though

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    Some, gunslnger, live on blood. Even, I understand, the blood of young boys.
    May he not be spared?
    Yes.
    How?
    Cease, gunslinger......
    I'm sworn by my fathers guns.....

    I think that this needs to be seen in the larger context of Roland repeating quest. Why does it have to do specifically with Roland dropping Jake? I think he would be spared (along with others) when the cycles of Roland stop. There will be no more drawings of the boy.
    "...quiet as despair, I turn’d from him..."


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  21. #46
    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by To The Dark Tower Came View Post
    Some, gunslnger, live on blood. Even, I understand, the blood of young boys.
    May he not be spared?
    Yes.
    How?
    Cease, gunslinger......
    I'm sworn by my fathers guns.....

    I think that this needs to be seen in the larger context of Roland repeating quest. Why does it have to do specifically with Roland dropping Jake? I think he would be spared (along with others) when the cycles of Roland stop. There will be no more drawings of the boy.
    ...and there will be no more Tower because that is what his father's guns are sworn to protecting

  22. #47
    Citizen of Gilead TerribleT is on a distinguished road TerribleT's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by R_of_G View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by To The Dark Tower Came View Post
    Some, gunslnger, live on blood. Even, I understand, the blood of young boys.
    May he not be spared?
    Yes.
    How?
    Cease, gunslinger......
    I'm sworn by my fathers guns.....

    I think that this needs to be seen in the larger context of Roland repeating quest. Why does it have to do specifically with Roland dropping Jake? I think he would be spared (along with others) when the cycles of Roland stop. There will be no more drawings of the boy.
    ...and there will be no more Tower because that is what his father's guns are sworn to protecting
    Jayson, before you say anything else, I HIGHLY recommend that you go the the "thing at the end" thread and read about Roland
    Spoiler:
    reaching the tower.
    It's stressful being an other. ~ Juliet

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  23. #48
    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    read it and remember it well from reading it in the book itself. i'm not sure what it is you are trying to get me to cry off of saying, but nothing in that thread changes the way i see any of it. like i have said on numerous occasions, i think the ending is ambiguous and lends itself to multiple interpretations, none of which [other than King's personal version] is any more "right" than anyone elses. i know how i see it. i know how others see it. i enjoy comparing and contrasting the theories, but i don't intend to change anyone's view, nor do i expect my own to change radically. i may see certain things in a light that i had never considered, but ultimately my "answer" to the question of the series is as infinite in possibility as the multiverse.

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    ...and there will be no more Tower because that is what his father's guns are sworn to protecting
    Not sure what you meant by this.
    "...quiet as despair, I turn’d from him..."


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  25. #50
    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by To The Dark Tower Came View Post
    ...and there will be no more Tower because that is what his father's guns are sworn to protecting
    Not sure what you meant by this.
    Yeah, that is kind of mysterious...care to elaborate?
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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