I voted that I can't vote because of my Twinner/Twin obession. This is a great discussion here and my "obsession" is essential when answering this question.Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King
Yes, they are absolutely the same people.
No, they aren't. Their bodies (genes) and names are the same but no more.
It doesn't make any difference.. so what?
I can't vote because...
I voted that I can't vote because of my Twinner/Twin obession. This is a great discussion here and my "obsession" is essential when answering this question.
I voted no
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Oh yeeeesssssesesessss! And now we have more no votes than yes ones. Yeah.
Roland would have understood.
I'm glad I brought mirth and glee to thee Letti!
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Whenever you appear you do.
Roland would have understood.
Awwwwwww that's exactly how I feel when I see you!!!!! *enormous huggles*
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Thats what so mind-bending, "voting" for "I can't vote".
I voted that I can't vote because of my Twinner/Twin obession. This is a great discussion here and my "obsession" is essential when answering this question.
"It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.
"When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah
So true.
Bumping this fantastic thread for newer members, and rereaders.
Please take the time to read the whole thread (and use the multiquote button at will so you can join in
Actually if it's DNA then they wouldn't be would they? They're brothers on this level of the Tower. (Unless they're adoptive brothers of course.)
That being said, I think they're close enough the same. Whether they are different versions on another level of the Tower, or reincarnations of those that died (hence the same soul) I'm not sure, but I think I'd go with the former. I'm not sure how it works though. Do all versions have separate souls, share a soul, etc?
As for Susannah going there for love, well that would be part of it, but she didn't know for sure she would meet them. It think she went as much because she knew she was meant to as anything.
Apologies if I've just repeated stuff others have mentioned, I just replied to a thread and haven't gone all the way through the others yet. (I'm not sure how the multi-quote works by the way. It's set to 'on' now, but it seems just the same as always. I'll check the guidelines.)
You turn Multi on for each post you wish to quote from and then click the Quote button on the last one. Here's part of an earlier exchange to relate to your question "Do all versions have separate souls, share a soul, etc?":
It's a nice thought. I don't personally buy into the concept, but if you did believe there was an "essence" to living beings than yes, it is possible that this essence could be spread among the multiverse in different facets."Individual Eddies."Just my own thoughts, but doesn't that kind of cheapen it? It seems to make the individual lives led by the individual Eddie's somewhat meaningless if they are all just extensions of one "essence." No trouble that Susannah lost her Eddie, she can just go to another level of the Tower and get a new one. Again, just my thoughts, but I think it takes away from the uniqueness of the individual.My opinion is that the idea of a multiverse in which there are multiple Eddies who are not extentions of one essence takes away from the uniqueness of the individual.
Thanks pathofturtle.
And I sort of see what you mean about the multiple Eddies, etc. This one certainly seems close enough although without the negativity which defined 'our' Eddie. Some would argue that was a major thing in defining Eddie's personality, and I think in some ways it was, but I'd like to think that an Eddie whose upbringing was less harsh would still retain much of the same essence.
It's interesting that he sort of remembers Susannah too, although from his point of view he never met her. Something he picked up from her Eddie, much like Jake picked up the memories of the Jake who died at Mort's hands? Is this just a collective consciousness thing or a transmigration of souls (if they're separate.)
"I can't vote because..."the wording of none of the options given seems just right to me. I'd definitely answer yes to "Are they the same at all?" but can't really say "Yes, they are absolutely the same people." I think that they are fundamentally the same people, and I would agree that "Yes, they absolutely are the same people," (an arrangement making the "absolutely" into an adverb) but I do agree that there are differences. However, it is more than bodies (genes) and names in my book: I think they are the same on an unconcious level. I think that's what Matt was trying to sayPersonality changes, sure, but when the chips are down, these guys would stand, and be true.It's a good question. What bugs me is--Maybe the souls travel through a collective unconscious. Eddie recognizes Susannah from dreams that he has been having, as well. All of that might be just another result of the mental link they'd all often shown, but I've always felt that the Tower played a role in the reunion, too. An interesting sub-question here might be "Would any alternate Eddie & Jake be good enough, or did it have to be those exact, specific ones?" I'd say that it did: I do tend to think that ALL those that exist would be manifestations of the same essences, but I also believe in ka, and I think she was guided to that precise destination for a reason. I'm not sure, but I'd like to believe that there is a Divine plan in TDT. For a multiverse, it would need to be an incredibly complex one.
On the other hand, Lisa's speculation notwithstanding, maybe this is a form of reincarnation. Their souls could have travelled back in time as well as across dimensions to be reborn in a new Jake and Eddie; perhaps that happens repeatedly, all the time. If everyone who dies appears at a waystation in some world, you'd think we'd have a lot more reports of walk-ins.
I'm starting to believe that death in TDT deserves it's own thread.
Speaking of a Divine plan, this topic connects to some others:
I don't care for that. You may well be right that he needs to stop making it his priority in the destructive fashion he has, but I'd rather that we just say that. Someone else could also legitimately argue, IMO, that "Roland needs to realize that climbing the Tower is not the way to his true goals." However, being able to say "Roland can cry off the Tower without crying off the Tower." just seems much too Orwellian to me.
I don't get it. I agree that we don't know for certain, but if Roland wants what you speculated in that paragraph, then how is that not altruistic? Remember the wisdom of Solomon:I'm not trying to drail the thread, though. I want to relate Roland's quest back to this debate's implications."And God said to Solomon: 'Because this was in your heart, and you have not asked riches or wealth or honor or the life of your enemies, nor have you asked for long life -- but have asked wisdom and knowledge for yourself, that you may judge My people over whom I have made you king -- wisdom and knowledge are granted to you; and I will give you riches and wealth and honor, such as none of the kings have had who have been before you, nor shall any after you have the like.'"
-- Second Chronicles 1:11-12Not an easy one to answer off the top of my head, but with time and help from friends, we'll see what we can do.
It's funny that you said that, since the points you've been supporting here have traditionally been used as disproofs of free will--
I think that our wills, our souls, ka, experience, God, and the devil are all part of the big picture. Life shapes us and we shape life, and what's the difference? It's good to try to understand the nuts and bolts, and I'm convinced that it's not really as paradoxical as it seems, but on one level, yes:
To me they are totally different people. Foreigners.
We are not only made of genes or essence, the same potential to change into same way, soul, body, or experiences, or our wounds, happinesses. We are all of them.
If one of those changes even a little, we are not the same person anymore.
We can't copy-paste or delete these.
yeah!!! i love i when posts get bumped. i always wonder if peeps thats posted have changed their view point?
anyhoo, i think it was Matt that mentioned in an earlier post that he would go through a door for dora (i am too lazy too hunt for the quote sorry)
I personally could not and would not go through the door for another mr c.
we went through some damn hard times before we got together and we went through some shit when we got together too, and this both made us as people and made us as a couple, and i would find it unbearable to be with a man that
a) had not lived through that
and b) even worse knew nothing of it
Because we are made up of what we are and what we have been through more then genes etc
so, my vote was no, they are not the same people... eddie and jake where brothers in new version so neither would not have had the defining moments in their life that made them our eddie and jake. and as for Oy apparantley he came back as a golden retriever or something like
I couldn't agree more.
Roland would have understood.
Well said Candy.
This is precisely what I meant as well.
A different Mrs R_of_G could be like her in many many ways, but without the experiences she's had both with and without me, she wouldn't be the same person.
Its a good point, but its partially countered by the fact that Susannah immediately began losing all her memories of Roland's world. Would all of you say that Altzheimer patients are the same people of their life experiences when they can't remember their own family members or day to day activities? The difference with Suze is that she's capable of making new memories that will last with people that she has some connection to beyond circumstance.Well said Candy.
This is precisely what I meant as well.
A different Mrs R_of_G could be like her in many many ways, but without the experiences she's had both with and without me, she wouldn't be the same person.
Besides, its clearly what the Tower wanted. She didn't ask for the dreams or for the Tower to not call her name. Many insist that this whole story is about Roland's obsession but that's not the case. Its not like making some objective choice about what to eat for breakfast. Whatever passes for divinity in Roland's world was screaming his name and that's why childe Roland came. Its also why Susannah ended up in an alternate universe.
but there is also free will, and i know that ka is a wheel and blah de blah,
but the fact is suzannah chooses to go through the door, and i understand the altzhiemer reference, and yes i would still love mr c if he forgot me and was no longer mr c because the essence of him would be there. but i still say i could not choose to meet a stranger that looked like him.
in my opinion, the tower called to her to give her 'compensation' for what she had lost knowing she would never reach the tower. but i agree with the previous posts that if it was me, on a purely personal level mind, i would prefer the clearing at the end of the path to meet MY eddie, jake and oy
"Free Will" is a contradiction of terms. We always choose the strongest impulse of our nature. People always act like will isn't a constituancy of agency, that its neutral and alone in its sphere of operation.
If your will wasn't pulled by something, you'd make no decisions whatsoever. Instead of corn flakes or oatmeal, you'd starve if you had no preference. We are slaves who masquerade as freely autonomous. No one is as free as modernity would make us think we are. We don't choose our race, our family, our country etc... If you want to "freely" choose to be a king or prince you're inhibited by the fact you aren't royal blood etc... And the heart wants what it wants. Claiming that Susannah had free will is overlooking the humongous contingencies at work within everything leading up to that decision.
Oy Knows The truth
They are most definitely NOT the same!!
The simple proof is that when Susannah was trying to get Oy to come with her through the door he was going to go until she said "...with no idea at all"... "There are other worlds than these."
Oy stopped, sat down and refused to go through the door choosing to stay with Roland. Oy was highly intuitively and obviously knew that the real Jake and Eddie, those of the ka-tet of 19 were gone. So his beloved Jake and Eddie could not be through the door.
Or Oy was tempted but decided to stay with Roland because it was Jake's last request of him.
But welcome to the site Barney.
Oy Knows
Thanks for the welcome.
Could be Oy was following Jake's last request but if Oy thought for a second that HIS Jake was still alive he would likely have chosen the door. Oy knew there was only one real "ake" and he was gone.
I think you underestimate Oy. He was duty bound to Roland and your statement takes away from his stand with Mordred.
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