The Shining S/L from Subterranean Press

[AKC]

When you add 1, indicates that there is not enough in stock....

WOW, at $249 per, they did well.

[Comrade Alex]

Hey ACK,

try different browser. I observed issues with SP website in the past.
I just checked it and I was abled to add 2 of remarques and proceed to checkout.
Also, Bill just sent a newsletter with the ad - so some them MUST be available.

AK

[ELazansky]

Now it is marked SOLD OUT on the wesbite

[DoctorZaius]

I was wondering about the "three types of images" as well. Seems weird. In the end though, I had to have one to match my Doctor Sleep.

I got one too (for my numbered copy). I think it will be pretty cool. I was, however, turned off when I was automatically charged an extra $5.53 for media mail shipping. Extra shipping charge for an extra page bound into the book. WTF?

I noticed this too and I have an email into Bill about it, just to find out if it was a glitch or not - it may just be a default for books. I will let you know if I find out anything.

[tippy4]

Still available.

Three images.....what a stinker.

That is all you have to do these days...draw the same image over and over it would seem.

Looks like Chadbourne started a trend with his rats in FDNS.

[bdwyer19]

Still available.

Three images.....what a stinker.

That is all you have to do these days...draw the same image over and over it would seem.

Looks like Chadbourne started a trend with his rats in FDNS.

I was thinking the same thing, but I think all the artists from FDNS are guilty. Chadbourne had the one sketch, and the others had no more than two or three variations.

[CyberGhostface]

I know Chadbourne and "rats" is a bit of an inside joke here, is that what it refers to, him only drawing rats on his remarque?

[tippy4]

Chadbourne remarqued FDNS, and it was the same drawing over and over......rats and a skeleton coming out of a well.

There were variations....but the intent was the same.

I bet he made at least 40 of them.

[Rahfa]

I purchased a couple S/Ls from a collective who was getting out of the limiteds collecting and just focusing on 1sts because it was becoming too much for him.

It is actually becoming a little too much for me too. I'm hanging in there but I'm not sure for how much longer. S/L's of new novels are one thing. But all of these reissues and made up books (i.e. The Dark Man, Riding the Bullet, etc.) are wearing me down.

I just had this conversation with someone here. He had emailed me to let me know "my number" had shown up for Joyland...but I didn't like that book in the first place, much less to buy a limited.

And that's my problem with all these books lately - I can see The Shining getting an s/l, but all these other niche books are just too much. I can't keep up, and since I can't match my full set anymore, I'm out of the game. It was fun as an occasional purchase, but now it's all the time.

[Brian James Freeman]

And that's my problem with all these books lately - I can see The Shining getting an s/l, but all these other niche books are just too much. I can't keep up, and since I can't match my full set anymore, I'm out of the game. It was fun as an occasional purchase, but now it's all the time.

That's an interesting point. We've certainly seen some "old timers" -- in terms of collecting SK, not necessarily age! -- drop out over the years for sure, but we've also seen a lot of new people placing orders to take their place. Either completely new customers who have never ordered from us before, or who have never ordered an SK title, at least. Maybe they were getting previous Limited Editions from somewhere else or maybe they're new to collecting SK.

We've never done a poll, but I'd certainly be curious to learn more. If they're new to collecting SK, do they desire to build a complete set of SK's Limited Editions? Just the books BY him or any Limited Edition "with" him?

Or are they snagging the new Limited Editions when one is announced by a publisher because they feel secure ordering a book from a publisher instead of "some guy" on eBay?

Or are they ordering these Limited Editions simply because the books are there to be ordered? "Hey, I like Stephen King and it's a fancy signed book!" But they don't plan on searching for older Limited Editions?

A very large percentage of our Stephen King customers continue to order new titles in terms of his Limited Editions, but there are always new names on the list and I just find myself curious about them.

Brian

[Rahfa]

And that's my problem with all these books lately - I can see The Shining getting an s/l, but all these other niche books are just too much. I can't keep up, and since I can't match my full set anymore, I'm out of the game. It was fun as an occasional purchase, but now it's all the time.

That's an interesting point. We've certainly seen some "old timers" -- in terms of collecting SK, not necessarily age! -- drop out over the years for sure, but we've also seen a lot of new people placing orders to take their place. Either completely new customers who have never ordered from us before, or who have never ordered an SK title, at least. Maybe they were getting previous Limited Editions from somewhere else or maybe they're new to collecting SK.

Brian

If I was just entering the collecting field today, it would be different. I wouldn't have everything, so if I got an S/L of Joyland, for example, it would be neat and I'd be excited, and then I'd be on my way trying to collect/gather a few more.

So that's who is replacing old-timers...and I expect that will continue in the short-term.

But, I started about 15 years ago when the S/Ls only came out every couple years - and were generally a bit cheaper. So it wasn't difficult to stay on top of it. Now, though, it's like every book gets an S/L (and Joyland didn't deserve it), and my original goal of matching my numbered set became untenable. Once I stopped trying to do that, it had the side effect of reducing my interest in collecting at all.

The cost and frequency of S/L editions is not a recipe for long-term success. Anytime the market becomes directed toward the a smaller and smaller subset of moneyed collectors, the longterm market will absolutely suffer...this happened in concert and sports tickets, when the price of the best seats climbed and climbed. It priced out the casual and young fan - who are the most excited to attend - and left the events with a market of semi-motivated people with some extra cash and a desire to see and be seen, and not much else. It's fine right now - but 10 years from now, the 30-year-old music fan will never have gotten in the habit of seeing concerts when they were 20.

In the short-term, it's not a problem. New collectors will replace the old-timers who are dropping out, and there's obviously been no impact on sales. They're as good as ever. But, we did see the bottom drop out before, even though it's scratched its way back (I'm talking about the secondary market, which is the real belwether of the hobby's health).

However, I don't see a longterm advantage in killing the golden goose by releasing a constant stream of remarqued/limited/artist editions of every book (not CD, I'm talking across the board) - the point is the scarcity, and none of them are actually that scarce - just expensive. Back in 1998-99, I was actually excited to get a S/L because they didn't seem THAT common - but now it's like, take your pick, there's dozens floating around. So either through cost or lack of exclusivity they start losing their luster.

Eventually, rich people get bored and find a new shiny bauble. And the new collectors who should be excited and invested never find an affordable way in, or are overwhelmed by too many choices that suddenly don't seem that unique or interesting (like what happened with baseball cards). Don't say I didn't warn you...

[CyberGhostface]

We've never done a poll, but I'd certainly be curious to learn more. If they're new to collecting SK, do they desire to build a complete set of SK's Limited Editions? Just the books BY him or any Limited Edition "with" him?

For me at least I'm trying to be very selective as to what I get (for example I have no interest in getting the 'Pet Semetary' or 'Christine' books from PS) and I always get the cheapest version available. Like there's no way I could pay $500 to $1000 for one book.

[biomieg]

And that's my problem with all these books lately - I can see The Shining getting an s/l, but all these other niche books are just too much. I can't keep up, and since I can't match my full set anymore, I'm out of the game. It was fun as an occasional purchase, but now it's all the time.

That's an interesting point. We've certainly seen some "old timers" -- in terms of collecting SK, not necessarily age! -- drop out over the years for sure, but we've also seen a lot of new people placing orders to take their place. Either completely new customers who have never ordered from us before, or who have never ordered an SK title, at least. Maybe they were getting previous Limited Editions from somewhere else or maybe they're new to collecting SK.

Brian

If I was just entering the collecting field today, it would be different. I wouldn't have everything, so if I got an S/L of Joyland, for example, it would be neat and I'd be excited, and then I'd be on my way trying to collect/gather a few more.

So that's who is replacing old-timers...and I expect that will continue in the short-term.

But, I started about 15 years ago when the S/Ls only came out every couple years - and were generally a bit cheaper. So it wasn't difficult to stay on top of it. Now, though, it's like every book gets an S/L (and Joyland didn't deserve it), and my original goal of matching my numbered set became untenable. Once I stopped trying to do that, it had the side effect of reducing my interest in collecting at all.

The cost and frequency of S/L editions is not a recipe for long-term success. Anytime the market becomes directed toward the a smaller and smaller subset of moneyed collectors, the longterm market will absolutely suffer...this happened in concert and sports tickets, when the price of the best seats climbed and climbed. It priced out the casual and young fan - who are the most excited to attend - and left the events with a market of semi-motivated people with some extra cash and a desire to see and be seen, and not much else. It's fine right now - but 10 years from now, the 30-year-old music fan will never have gotten in the habit of seeing concerts when they were 20.

In the short-term, it's not a problem. New collectors will replace the old-timers who are dropping out, and there's obviously been no impact on sales. They're as good as ever. But, we did see the bottom drop out before, even though it's scratched its way back (I'm talking about the secondary market, which is the real belwether of the hobby's health).

However, I don't see a longterm advantage in killing the golden goose by releasing a constant stream of remarqued/limited/artist editions of every book (not CD, I'm talking across the board) - the point is the scarcity, and none of them are actually that scarce - just expensive. Back in 1998-99, I was actually excited to get a S/L because they didn't seem THAT common - but now it's like, take your pick, there's dozens floating around. So either through cost or lack of exclusivity they start losing their luster.

Eventually, rich people get bored and find a new shiny bauble. And the new collectors who should be excited and invested never find an affordable way in, or are overwhelmed by too many choices that suddenly don't seem that unique or interesting (like what happened with baseball cards). Don't say I didn't warn you...

Awesome post!

[Cloysterpete]

I'm basically out of collecting King now, this year has just broke me, just one book after another, I kinda feel like if I can't get a copy of each of the limited releases then why bother getting any of them so I'm just sticking to the trades now. I was never a 'hardcore' collector anyway I only ever bought the $75 gift editions and similar books, but it's just been feeling like a kick in the teeth over the last two of three years, from the $75 turning to $95 plus, to the doubling of the international shipping costs to the announcement of a new King (or King related) limited almost every month it's too much to handle.

So when my hours were cut down a bit at work I had to make the decision to finish collecting, I'll probably sell my few signed King books first, keeping just the one and focus my collecting on other less 'intense' books.

[Greg]

.

[Greg]

Whoops!!!
Considering King is supposedly not a great an of limited editions he must have an awful case of hand cramp!

[mistercrowley]

As a new collector I love the amount of signed limiteds I've been able to get this year. Joyland absolutely deserved s/l treatment. It was a fantastic story and affordable for those that can't afford to drop 350$.

[biomieg]

I'm an 'intermediate' collector, in terms of the number of years I've been collecting and also the scope of my collection. As I stated ad nauseam I'm mostly interested in older/obscure stuff and one of the reasons was explained very eloquently by Rahfa a few posts upthread. The S/L editions that came out during the last decade just don't have the appeal (to me) that the older editions do - I think the S/Ls from the 1980s and 1990s were much classier books and they only came out every now and then instead of what we're seeing nowadays. Even though I wasn't collecting back then these books still have something 'special' going on that I just don't find in the newer limiteds. The fact that I'm only marginally interested in King's sig (it's always about the book itself for me) makes that I'm only on the lookout for a few of the older S/L editions. Other than that, I find joy in collecting older proofs and magazine first appearances - mostly stuff that requires an actual 'hunt' to get what you're after.

This is just my opinion of course and I'm happy to see there are plenty of people who have a different opinion and enjoy collecting all the new stuff! But I do believe Rahfa is right and I'm very curious to see what will happen to the King market in a couple of years.

[Brian James Freeman]

Yeah, it's definitely an interesting question. Our King signed Limited Editions (and even the Gift Edition of Doctor Sleep) are selling out FASTER than they ever have, even with the increased number of Limited Edition titles lately. I don't know what that'll mean for the older Limited Editions in terms of value or for future Limited Editions in terms of people's interest in getting them.

I also think the perception of scarcity has changed. If you wanted to find a specific "older" Limited Edition 15 years ago, there were some catalogs and a few specialty booksellers to check with. Now there's the entire Internet. Resellers could charge $1000 for an older Limited Edition because it might be the first time in two years buyers saw a copy on the market. Now you might see that same book listed 6 times a year because of eBay, ABE, and other sites, which is what drove down the values. I think all fields (baseball cards, etc) saw this happen. When it was harder for collectors to connect with buyers, values were higher. Now that it's easy to connect, values are lower.

I still remember some of the prices my local baseball card store was selling cards for in the late 90s and what prices I then paid in college when I found those same cards on eBay -- and had 50 different sellers to pick from!

Something to note for those who are interested:

When it comes to pricing on the new Limited Editions, I can't discuss contractual specifics about any of our authors, but I can say that the price is often part of the agreement and we have guidelines to follow.

The cost of producing these editions has really exploded in the last 10 years. The slipcase for the Gift Edition of From A Buick 8 cost us half of what the slipcase for the Gift Edition of Doctor Sleep is costing us. The expensive, high-end paper stock we're using for the interior of the book has TRIPLED in the last 10 years. (And the comparable options we could switch to have increased at the same rate. There are fewer companies producing paper these days, and their costs have gone UP, and their volume has gone DOWN, so prices have gone up across the board -- even for the paper for our regular editions.)

In addition, many of the editions are selling out in record time at the current prices. In some cases, the prices could have been much higher and the books would have still sold out.

So it's a tough question. I understand why collectors and resellers would want all of the books to be issued at 1990s pricing, but there are contractual issues and business issues to address first. You have to stay within the guidelines of your contractual obligation and you have to make sure you make money on the edition. When you're cutting multiple six figure checks to vendors to produce a book, you simply have to have some money left when you're done with it all because you still need to pay the author, artists, your staff, your landlord, your electric company, your water company, your phone company, your insurance company, and the tax man, who happily asks for a very large check every quarter. Otherwise, you won't be in business very long!

Just some rambling thoughts before I leave for PT. I hope there's something useful in there!

Brian

[Rahfa]

I won't re-quote Brian's whole post, but I think he's generally on-point.

I have NO problem with the price of any edition - the market proves what the right price is, and the fact that these books sell out so quickly is proof they are priced correctly - in fact, too cheaply. They should be expensive, because that keeps the air of exclusivity. So no, I don't expect prices to stay at 1980s-90s level (Desperation was $175 in 1996, and adjusted for inflation, I think that's on par for 2013).

Actually, quick sellouts are probably a good thing. They show that the book COULD be more expensive, but it's still at an accessible and profitiable point. If you get too greedy, you become the Rolling Stones who dropped many of their $450 tickets to $95 the day before the show because of low sales.

The 'problem' is the amount of books available, and that dilutes the market over time.

Really, the secondary market is the true belwether - if Dr Sleep is selling out faster than ever before (as well as other limiteds like 11/22/63, etc), then the secondary prices for older S/L editions SHOULD be climbing as these new collectors compete with each other to get those past editions.

That isn't happening - an S/L of Christine has been selling for $600-700 for the past 6 years (since the market crashed), and other books like The Stand have dropped - that used to be a $2500 book, now it's usually $1500 (always with exceptions).

So these new collectors are buying the new books - and the primary market sales you're talking about obviously prove that. But they aren't competing with each other to drive up the secondary market prices like a "healthy" collector's market would actually be doing.

Now, I'm the asshole, because I don't know what David/Betts is doing, or other book stores - so clearly there ARE big-ticket sales going on. But the frequency and price points SHOULD be higher, if all these new collectors were busting in. That's what I did - when I first started, I was competing with a lot of people to get my S/L editions...I just don't see that same frenzy anymore. Again, I'm also not as much a participant so I'm not the best judge...but at least the prices I see seem to have stagnated.

It probably sounds like I want it both ways - I'm saying prices should drop, but now I'm complaining they're not rising. My point is that because of market saturation there's too much to buy - everybody can get a FIRST book, but the number of people interested in the second, third, and other books doesn't seem to be increasing like it should. So somewhere in this buyer-seller dynamic is a disconnect, and eventually that will lead to a collapse - because the glut of these new limiteds is going to keep reducing the idea of exclusivity that's key to collecting. I think we saw that in the Joe Hill limiteds that everyone got excited about - briefly.

Anyway - I am not saying that prices should go back to the '80s level, and I totally understand that contracts and production costs have gone up. If $350 is the market price, then these books should absolutely be priced at $350. This isn't baby's milk....

But I did like the rarity/scarcity/competition of "earning" my S/L editions in the early 2000s, when it felt like I was accomplishing something by working and scouring auctions and book sites for books that didn't show up ALL the time. Now, it's just like "I'll buy the stupid thing," and there's no game to it. And that's what's lost with this stream of S/Ls....but from the publisher standpoint, it's great, because you're making the money on the first sale and that's all that should matter. I'm talking the longterm health of the collecting hobby, and that's where I see the problems ahead.

I'm just a negative nelly, though. :-)

[mistercrowley]

I wont collect older s/l's because I refuse to pay the higher prices. I'll only purchase them if I can get a deal otherwise I have no interest.

[Rahfa]

I wont collect older s/l's because I refuse to pay the higher prices. I'll only purchase them if I can get a deal otherwise I have no interest.

Exactly.

[DoctorZaius]

I was wondering about the "three types of images" as well. Seems weird. In the end though, I had to have one to match my Doctor Sleep.

I got one too (for my numbered copy). I think it will be pretty cool. I was, however, turned off when I was automatically charged an extra $5.53 for media mail shipping. Extra shipping charge for an extra page bound into the book. WTF?

I noticed this too and I have an email into Bill about it, just to find out if it was a glitch or not - it may just be a default for books. I will let you know if I find out anything.

I got a refund for the shipping today - thanks Bill! Turns out it was a glitch like I figured. He also confirmed that it looks like Vinny will only be doing the three remarques multiple times.

[DoctorZaius]

As for the state of collecting, my feelings are more related to how I feel about a book. If it is a book I loved (Joyland, IT, The Shining etc.) then I am happy to add things to my collection, regardless of production value. On the flip side, if I only like the story in a marginal way (Blockade Billy, Regulators) then I really need something special production value wise to interest me. A good example of what I sold due to lack of interest/production was my signed limited edition (250 copies) of Dolan's Cadillac - not a great looking book. In fact, I would rather have a copy of the 1000 limited of the same name because the the boards are so much more interesting. I have mentioned on my collections page that I had become bored with my Cujo signed limited edition and rather than sell it I had Glenn Chadbourne to a cool remarque for me - this kept me interested in the volume - though some would say I detracted from it's value. Of late, I have really been excited to add artist remarques to many of my books as a way to enhance their uniqueness to me. The one thing I MUST have is that the book be signed by King. I am not interested in trade editions (Doctor Sleep or The Shining), or special editions anniversary editions (PS & Christine - especially when the second one had a limited edition done of it. I would welcome some signed limited editions of early books (Carrie, Pet Sematary, or even Thinner if they could come up with another group of cancelled checks, or pay stubs would be cool!).

As for the recent glut of books. I love it, as expensive at it may be. I am glad that the publishers are making out because without King throwing a book or two their way many of them may not have a place in this new world economy. The only publisher I was angered by were the people at Little Simon who raised the price beyond belief - that one was a sham! I am only speculating here but I wonder if King willingness to do so many limited editions is in some way his way of keeping fans happy. He does not do as many signings any more and when he does he mostly pre-signs a set amount to be distributed. Just a thought. That's about it from this collector.

[Brian James Freeman]

But I did like the rarity/scarcity/competition of "earning" my S/L editions in the early 2000s, when it felt like I was accomplishing something by working and scouring auctions and book sites for books that didn't show up ALL the time. Now, it's just like "I'll buy the stupid thing," and there's no game to it. And that's what's lost with this stream of S/Ls....but from the publisher standpoint, it's great, because you're making the money on the first sale and that's all that should matter. I'm talking the longterm health of the collecting hobby, and that's where I see the problems ahead.

I'm just a negative nelly, though. :-)

Ha, I love your last line because that's actually where I'm coming from a lot of the time on other things.

I definitely agree with a lot of what you have to say. I'm also just quoting the paragraph above because I agree so completely with that statement.

When I was in high school, I saw my first Limited Edition anything. The Waldenbooks where I worked received 5 copies of Wizard & Glass from Donald Grant and I fell in love with the whole idea of these "nicer" editions. The Internet was still in its infancy then, but I was able to find groups of collectors to talk to and start talking to stores like Overlook, Camelot, Zeising, Betts, etc, about building a collection and how to find more books like this. It was a challenge and it was fun.

I don't know what the future holds for Limited Editions or the market. I wonder what these old fashioned print editions will mean to people in 20 or 30 years when almost everything is digital simply because of costs. Will these paper editions be MORE valuable to us old timers who treasure holding a real book in our hands? Will most people simply forget the pleasure of holding and reading and owning a printed and bound book?

(Related note: I've seen paper cost trend estimates for 2025 showing a regular mass market paperback book at $15 to $20 and a normal trade hardcover at $40 to $50 simply due to the cost of paper and manufacturing. How many people would be "pushed" to the $9.99 and below eBooks by that kind of retail price on a print edition?)

Brian

P.S. My apologies if these posts are getting too far off the topic of this thread.