Ooohhh! I must see this elephant.
i want to go to the level of the Tower with purple dancing elephants!!!!
Originally Posted by Letti
Love is a big purple dancing elephant.
I am sure about it.
"It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.
"When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah
Nikolett: we've already spoken about the concept of selfishness before, and found out that we don't even agree on definitions. I wouldn't call Susannah selfish, as I wouldn't call so anyone who is in love; but it all depends on how you understand the word, of course.
Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)
bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anyway can say that they are in love, can't they?
Roland would have understood.
Isn't a bit too easy to say that it is impossible for a person in love to act selfishly? I wouldn't absolutely rule out any type of behavior from any person. I do think Susannah acted selfishly, though I'm not altogether sure this was the "wrong" thing for her to do. That it's selfish only defines her motivations, it doesn't make the act right or wrong, which are also subjectives. No absolutes.
I'm just wondering selfish towards who? Existence? Roland? The Tower?
That's the part I don't understand because selfishness assumes someone (or thing) else getting the short end.
The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket
yeah, right - sorry I was (and am) in a hurry, so didn't clearly articulate what I thought
a person can be selfish, act selfishly etc whether or not s/he is in love; what I meant was that an act of love (not person in love) is, in my opinion, never selfish. Then again, I am not sure what "selfish" means, and would be glad if the concept was defined to the satisfaction of all parties involved before we proceed. I have strong suspicion (confirmed elsewhere) that we mean different things.
Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)
bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All of the above, Existence primarily, though the Tower may mean the same to some. In my eyes her departure was due to her desire to be "happy" and reunited with Eddie regardless of what else that meant. She did not know one way or the other if her continued presence was necessary for Roland's quest, but she decided that she was going anyway. I found the throwing away of the gun to be very symbolic as to what Susannah was choosing. To me it showed that she had disdain for Roland's way, the way that Eddie and Jake followed to their deaths. I kinda like the idea I stumbled upon yesterday in one of these threads that not having seen the Rose up close and personal may have had something to do with Susannah's decisions. I dunno.
Wow, how many great posts.I am just about to ream them all but before that I have a thought that has just come to my mind and I would like to write it down:
I might be wrong but as I see the people who say or feel they are in love act the most selfishly.
(Because they think they have the right to be selfish because they are in love.)
Roland would have understood.
I never had the feeling Suze was into as much as the others. I also had a strong feeling she hated Roland for most of the trip.All of the above, Existence primarily, though the Tower may mean the same to some. In my eyes her departure was due to her desire to be "happy" and reunited with Eddie regardless of what else that meant. She did not know one way or the other if her continued presence was necessary for Roland's quest, but she decided that she was going anyway. I found the throwing away of the gun to be very symbolic as to what Susannah was choosing. To me it showed that she had disdain for Roland's way, the way that Eddie and Jake followed to their deaths. I kinda like the idea I stumbled upon yesterday in one of these threads that not having seen the Rose up close and personal may have had something to do with Susannah's decisions. I dunno.
Once her man was gone, can we blame her for not wanting to be around anymore? I personally don't think so.
But remember, the Tower was saved at that point
The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket
You are incredible Matt. If I am water you are fire if I am fire you are water.1. I never had the feeling Suze was into as much as the others.All of the above, Existence primarily, though the Tower may mean the same to some. In my eyes her departure was due to her desire to be "happy" and reunited with Eddie regardless of what else that meant. She did not know one way or the other if her continued presence was necessary for Roland's quest, but she decided that she was going anyway. I found the throwing away of the gun to be very symbolic as to what Susannah was choosing. To me it showed that she had disdain for Roland's way, the way that Eddie and Jake followed to their deaths. I kinda like the idea I stumbled upon yesterday in one of these threads that not having seen the Rose up close and personal may have had something to do with Susannah's decisions. I dunno.
2. I also had a strong feeling she hated Roland for most of the trip.
3. Once her man was gone, can we blame her for not wanting to be around anymore? I personally don't think so.
But remember, the Tower was saved at that point
1. Much into others? Do you mean the other members of the ka-tet???
2. Hated? I don't think any ka-tet can work if one of the members hates the boss. Or more exactly can't work for long. Just look at friendships or anything. And this ka-tet did a lot so for my part I am sure all the members loved and respected the others.
3. First of all her man asked her to stand by Roland. Her man died for Roland. Roland was the man who saved her and gave her Eddie... etc.
I do can blame her.
Roland would have understood.
I agree with you about Susannah not being "all in." She could have cried off after Algul Siento and just refused to go anywhere after that, and that I might have understood a bit more, but when she continued to follow Roland there was no going back for me at that point.I never had the feeling Suze was into as much as the others. I also had a strong feeling she hated Roland for most of the trip.
Once her man was gone, can we blame her for not wanting to be around anymore? I personally don't think so.
But remember, the Tower was saved at that point
And don't forget that she cried a lot before she left Roland (she hid behind bushes) because she felt she had to leave him. And she was not afraid of death and she knew those tears were not about death at all.I agree with you about Susannah not being "all in." She could have cried off after Algul Siento and just refused to go anywhere after that, and that I might have understood a bit more, but when she continued to follow Roland there was no going back for me at that point.I never had the feeling Suze was into as much as the others. I also had a strong feeling she hated Roland for most of the trip.
Once her man was gone, can we blame her for not wanting to be around anymore? I personally don't think so.
But remember, the Tower was saved at that point
Roland would have understood.
I think that's the key for me as to why I resent Susannah's final choices. I think to not stand to the end dishonors Eddie, Jake & Oy.
Not always Letti, just in matters of destiny (Ka) I think.You are incredible Matt. If I am water you are fire if I am fire you are water.1. I never had the feeling Suze was into as much as the others.All of the above, Existence primarily, though the Tower may mean the same to some. In my eyes her departure was due to her desire to be "happy" and reunited with Eddie regardless of what else that meant. She did not know one way or the other if her continued presence was necessary for Roland's quest, but she decided that she was going anyway. I found the throwing away of the gun to be very symbolic as to what Susannah was choosing. To me it showed that she had disdain for Roland's way, the way that Eddie and Jake followed to their deaths. I kinda like the idea I stumbled upon yesterday in one of these threads that not having seen the Rose up close and personal may have had something to do with Susannah's decisions. I dunno.
2. I also had a strong feeling she hated Roland for most of the trip.
3. Once her man was gone, can we blame her for not wanting to be around anymore? I personally don't think so.
But remember, the Tower was saved at that point
1. Much into others? Do you mean the other members of the ka-tet???
2. Hated? I don't think any ka-tet can work if one of the members hates the boss. Or more exactly can't work for long. Just look at friendships or anything. And this ka-tet did a lot so for my part I am sure all the members loved and respected the others.
3. First of all her man asked her to stand by Roland. Her man died for Roland. Roland was the man who saved her and gave her Eddie... etc.
I do can blame her.
She just really didn't seem like she was into it like Jake and Eddie were to me--I'm not sure if that is correct but I was very far from surprised when she left
As far as your comment RofG--I believe she really did try to stick with him but once the opportunity presented itself, she decided to take it.
The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket
Matt, you think and say much worse things about Susannah than I do... how can you stand her at all??
Roland would have understood.
I didn't say I liked her, I just said I understood her choice.
There is a big difference between liking someone (or their opinions) and understanding where they are coming from
The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket
Because she's selfish.
Or...she followed her heart.
I mean, are we going to call Roland selfish for killing all those people in the pursuit of his Tower?
The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket
In a sense, yes, but not in the same way. Roland never did any of it for himself. His palaver with Slightman on the ride to the Wolf battle shows how he feels about it, when he tells Slightman that he has betrayed people, even Jake, but he never took anything for himself like Slightman did the spectacles. Roland's quest is not for his own glory, but to save the Tower. To him little else matters because should the Tower fall nothing else matters as it would all cease to exist. If Susannah left unsure of the fate of the Tower as I suspect she did, she chose her own happiness over the continued existence of existence.
Or...she followed her heart.
I mean, are we going to call Roland selfish for killing all those people in the pursuit of his Tower?
Of course Roland is selfish.
Or...she followed her heart.
I mean, are we going to call Roland selfish for killing all those people in the pursuit of his Tower?
And it's so hard not to be selfish and that's why I love and respect Roland even more because day by day year by year he learnt to be not so selfish at all. And that's something.
Roland would have understood.
Okay, I can agree with you guys.
Except for the idea that Susannah was unsure that the work was done. The Tower was saved after Blue Heaven fell.
And as far as the selfishness goes, perhaps she didn't learn as much as Roland did. Personally, I would have followed my heart the same way she did and I don't fault her for that decision.
but that's just me
The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket
Then what was the point of the rest of it? I can see where saving King could be seen as necesary so he could write the books that would "make" the tet win the battle of Algul Siento, but the rest of it? If the Tower was ok, then Roland could have just dismissed Susannah when he and Jake and Oy left for Maine. Clearly he thought there was still work for Susannah to do. I suspect we won't ever agree on this one Matt. I think part of the cyclical nature of Roland's quest is the cyclical nature of the Tower's decline. It ALWAYS needs saving.
You are right, we won't agree on that
Doesn't she even ask Roland why he is going on and it is simply to see the thing? Isn't that his whole point? To climb the tower?
I am almost totally sure he was asked that question and said he was going regardless.
Not to mention, after all the years I have been mulling this over, I really believe that Tower was only falling for Roland, not existence.
And you are right, Rolands Tower will always need saving
The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket
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