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Thread: Why Different For Susannah?

  1. #51
    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    I could not agree with you more on that point Jean. This was Susannah's way of showing that there are things more important than his damn Tower.

    I think Roland could have learned a lot more from her.
    Considering that "his damn tower" was the lynchpin holding all worlds together, is it not also possible to consider Suze's choice as selfish? It's nice that she forsook all else for her love, but what she ultimately forsook was all other worlds. Even if her motivation was something we can admire like "love," it is still an act of selfishness on her part. she wants what she wants, damn the consequences.

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    Sure, you could look it at that way. Everyone thing comes down to perception after all.

    My comment is based on my growing certainty that the Tower is about Roland, not about existence.

    However, lets say it was. Reminds me of Air Force One when the guy was going to shoot Harrison--he no talky. Going to shoot his daughter? Yes, I'll talk.

    Because his love for her was more important than the entire free world (if you are to believe the hype). Seems totally plausible to make that choice to me. Was she being selfish? I'm not sure but its a damn good discussion topic.
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    My comment is based on my growing certainty that the Tower is about Roland, not about existence.
    Here is where I both agree and disagree. Can it not be about both? What I am trying to say is that I agree that it is possible that the physical Tower in End-World is solely Roland's to enter, I still think the metaphysical Tower is the Axis, and should it be brought down ... goodnight worlds. I suppose what I am saying is that Roland is about the Tower [and thus my belief that his looping cannot end], but the Tower is about more than Roland.

  4. #54
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    I am sure without such "selfish" choices the Tower would fall. Or the world(s) would reset in such inhuman way everybody would wish it had fallen.

    I am now just repeating what I said when I explained why I wouldn't follow Roland if it meant leaving those I love to the mercy of a world moving on (war, revolution, whatever); or what Matt said when he explained why Roland should not let Jake fall; or what I said when I expressed hope Roland would not kill people of Tull next time.

    That's how I see the universe. It's not all that simple, and the cause-effect correlation is not linear.

    If love should be sacrificed every time, this universe is not worth sacrificing anything.

    He looked back up at the cackling thing in the bulldozer's peak-seat and saw that Gasher was gone. Now the man at the controls was Engineer Bob, from Charlie the Choo-Choo.
    "Stop!" Eddie screamed. "For Christ's sake, stop!"
    "I can't, Eddie. The world has moved on, and I can't stop. I must move on with it. "
    And as the shadow of the 'dozer fell over the rose, as the blade tore through one of the posts holding up the sign (Eddie saw coming soon had changed to coming now), he realized that the man at the controls wasn't Engineer Bob, either.
    It was Roland.

    Don't go too hard about saving the universe, you might crush the rose.

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    If love should be sacrificed every time, this universe is not worth sacrificing anything.
    Beautiful!! Perfectly said Jean
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    [COLOR="Blue"]He looked back up at the cackling thing in the bulldozer's peak-seat and saw that Gasher was gone. Now the man at the controls was Engineer Bob, from Charlie the Choo-Choo.
    "Stop!" Eddie screamed. "For Christ's sake, stop!"
    "I can't, Eddie. The world has moved on, and I can't stop. I must move on with it. "
    And as the shadow of the 'dozer fell over the rose, as the blade tore through one of the posts holding up the sign (Eddie saw coming soon had changed to coming now), he realized that the man at the controls wasn't Engineer Bob, either.
    It was Roland.
    An important passage for sure, but think about what it was. It was a dream/vision Eddie has fairly early on in the scheme of things. Early enough that Eddie still had no real understanding of what the Tower really was and thus, hadn't come to a fully realized conception of just what Roland was really about. When Eddie sees the Rose for the first time he swears his fealty to it, which was a big step in my eyes. This was the point I think where Eddie could no longer turn back. With the true understaning of their quest, I wonder if Eddie would still agree with his dream that Roland may be the one to bring down the Tower. Perhaps not seeing the Rose played some role in Susannah's ulitmate decision to forsake the Tower.

  7. #57
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    "Is this ology-of-the-psyche? The cabala I have heard you and Susannah speak of?"
    "Yes, I guess it is."
    "It's shit," Roland said dismissively. "Mudpies of the mind. Dreams either mean nothing or everything -- and when they mean everything, they almost always come as messages from . . . well, from other levels of the Tower."


    and that's where I'm sure it came from...

    (anyway, I used it only to embellish my point, not to prove it)

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    i'd suggest it was the "mudpie" kind of dream, one made up of the incomplete bits of information eddie has to process at that point in the story. it is still early enough that he doesn't [and shouldn't] completely trust or understand Roland. it makes sense that his psyche would be troubled enough to send him dreams questioning his continuing to follow Roland. then again, what the hell do i know?

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    For my part I don't think that love is the most important thing is life. There are things that are over it.

    And anyway for me that Eddie and Jake are not the same people. Not the people I loved and respected. Just two stragers with the same or similar name and body.
    I might sound cruel but yeah, that how I feel so.
    (We all have to go through the things that are in our way and they all help us to become the people we are right now. An Eddie without Henry and stuff is not Eddie to me.)

    Roland would have understood.

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    That's a sound argument Letti. I believe that Susannah thought of that very prospect as she was standing there wondering about the heroin.

    And to me, love is easily the most important thing in life.
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    And to me, love is easily the most important thing in life.
    I can understand it very easily and I am sure many people feel the same way (and it's good) but I just simply think that... we are here to do and to love - but you can see I put love at the second place - or we are here to do to be able to love. I don't know which but love is the second.
    I hope it makes some sense.

    Roland would have understood.

  12. #62
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    it makes sense, but if you love (I include love of God here, too - for those who have religion) you at least have some guidelines that control what you do.

    Personally, I'm torn between the concepts of love and honor... not losing face and all that samurai stuff... I don't know which would win if put to test.

    But I know that I hope with all my heart there will always be people, especially women, who will tend to this (un)dying fire of love - love above all and before everything; and this, along with "doing" performed by men motivated by duty and honor, will keep our Tower from falling.

    And Susannah was a woman. I admire and adore her for what she did.

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    For me love is not something that's over people something we just feel and dream about something oh so untoucable... for me love goes and fights and dies and suffers and does.
    Love is like a nice field where you can (and should and must) build a nice castle where you can give home and warm soup to the people you love. If you just sit there watching your field and the roses that blow in the wind... you waste your love.
    To feel love is not enough... to feel it and get lost in it is hardly anything.

    That's how I think.
    And that's how I try to live.

    Roland would have understood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    And to me, love is easily the most important thing in life.
    I can understand it very easily and I am sure many people feel the same way (and it's good) but I just simply think that... we are here to do and to love - but you can see I put love at the second place - or we are here to do to be able to love. I don't know which but love is the second.
    I hope it makes some sense.
    I guess I just believe that when you start with love, the rest are natural byproducts. All wondrous things are possible in love

    But yes, Letti, that totally makes sense.
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

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    Jean, I am happy to see your opinions but let me ask only one single question. I ask it because it's very interesting to me.
    Okay, let's say Susannah was right when she chose the door and that other door. (We don't agree on it but it's not my point right now.)
    Even if we say her decision was right
    was it selfish, too?
    That's my very short little question Jean - to you.
    Was Susannah selfish?

    Roland would have understood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    And to me, love is easily the most important thing in life.
    I can understand it very easily and I am sure many people feel the same way (and it's good) but I just simply think that... we are here to do and to love - but you can see I put love at the second place - or we are here to do to be able to love. I don't know which but love is the second.
    I hope it makes some sense.
    I guess I just believe that when you start with love, the rest are natural byproducts. All wondrous things are possible in love

    But yes, Letti, that totally makes sense.
    But I think love can ruin as well. It can destroy. That's why I don't think that if we start with love, the rest are natural by products.
    If you don't love well (for example you love your little dove so much that you hug it too hard and you break its spine) you can make lots of scars on the loved one's heart.

    Roland would have understood.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    But I think love can ruin as well. It can destroy. That's why I don't think that if we start with love, the rest are natural by products.
    Well said Letti. Love is subjective, and subjectivity can lead people in many directions. I don't believe anything is absolutely "good" or "bad." I simply don't believe in absolutes.

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    I think squeezing a dove too hard isn't love

    Love to me is making sure something like that never happens.

    Also, what destroys was never love imo
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

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    ...but to them who loves it is as real as your love.


    I have no doubt Annie Wilkes loved the Paul Sheldon in her mind. The problem became when he wasn't quite that person.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    I’ll be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



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    We may have to disagree there. I do not believe what Annie had for Paul was love. It was something but not that.
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    I have no doubt Annie Wilkes loved the Paul Sheldon in her mind. The problem became when he wasn't quite that person.
    Excellent example Brice. This is exactly what I meant when I said love is subjective, and it's subjective two-fold. Firstly it is subjective in the eyes of the person doing the loving as you point out with Annie Wilkes. Secondly it becomes more subjective when we might, as matt does, try to point out that it wasn't "really" love but obsession or something else. it's all perspective.

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    On that we totally agree. I know "love hurts" his very big but I have always thought that the one thing real love doesn't do is hurt.

    I'm not saying we don't fight (and I said this to a friend earlier) but love always nourishes to me and never detracts when it is real.

    What Annie had for Paul was not nourishment for her or him no matter what she thought.
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    On that we totally agree. I know "love hurts" his very big but I have always thought that the one thing real love doesn't do is hurt.

    I'm not saying we don't fight (and I said this to a friend earlier) but love always nourishes to me and never detracts when it is real.

    What Annie had for Paul was not nourishment for her or him no matter what she thought.
    But, whether love is real or not is entirely subjective also.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    I’ll be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



  24. #74
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    Yep, totally personal perspective.
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

  25. #75
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    Love is a big purple dancing elephant.
    I am sure about it.

    Roland would have understood.

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