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Thread: Why Different For Susannah?

  1. #26
    Numenorean ManOfWesternesse is on a distinguished road ManOfWesternesse's Avatar

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    Agreed R_of_G , the whole ambiguity (sp?) even of that one example (just who are this Eddie & Jake?) sits fine with me.
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  2. #27
    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManOfWesternesse View Post
    Agreed R_of_G , the whole ambiguity (sp?) even of that one example (just who are this Eddie & Jake?) sits fine with me.
    Indeed. It's a fun one to think about, but precisely because we don't know for sure. If we did, it would just be what it was and that would be it. I know you are my co-Tolkien geek, so I tell you it is one of the things I prefer about DT to LotR. LotR is brilliant, but the end is the end. Everything wraps up nicely and we know what becomes of everyone. DT leaves much more of the "after" to our imaginations. As someone who majored in Religious Studies and minored in Philosophy, I prefer the ambiguous.

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    Numenorean ManOfWesternesse is on a distinguished road ManOfWesternesse's Avatar

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    Agree on teh LotR reference.
    Anything that's not wrapped up in the Book is wrapped up in the Apendecies.
    And anything he missed there is certainly wrapped up in one of a myriad of background books.
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  4. #29
    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by R_of_G View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    Basically, Susannah got to go to that one place where they actually were brothers (not keystone by any stretch of the imagination) and Eddie never had the monkey.
    The more I think about it, the more I wonder about your theory Matt. Would an alternate Eddie, one without the history of our Edward Cantor Dean be the same man Susannah was in love with? What each of them went through made them the two people who fell in love on the shore of the Western Sea. King is intentionally unclear as to just who this Eddie and Jake are, but it is not without possibility that they just don't remember who they were before.
    Exactly, remember that whole scene as she was waiting for him to turn around? She knew that only the basis of what Eddie was would still be there and hoped they could still love.

    The alternate Eddie was not who she fell in love with by any means.
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

  5. #30
    Along the Path of the Beam zadok is on a distinguished road zadok's Avatar

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    Why is any "version of Jake" there at all?? If you died in the "keystone earth" you were dead forever. Yet they were all "alive" in that NYC. Any insight?

    That's fine if 1987 NYC is supposed to be a Grey Havens (speaking of LOTR) sort of "heaven for dead characters", but they should have all known each other, not referred to as "alive", and how did Susannah get there without dying?
    There are other worlds than these...

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    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    Jake was there because in that reality, he was Eddies little brother. Just because Keystone Jake died in Keystone world doesn't mean that he doesn't exist on other levels of the tower.

    For instance....

    There is a version of me somewhere on the Tower that was never divorced. Never met Dora, never started this site--never happy really.

    That poor guy is sitting there as we speak, on his level, still married (19 years it would have been just passed).

    So yes, those two are totally different from any Eddie and Jake that Susannah has ever met but they are still essentially Eddie and Jake. Just different ones, different experiences, different everything.

    The only inkling that Eddie and Jake have of Susannah is the dreams and feeling "drawn" to the fair grounds.

    Even more interesting, Eddie is wearing a Nozz-a-la teeshirt so they could very well be the version of Eddie and Jake that had to endure the superflu in their future. What a screw for Susannah right?
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

  7. #32
    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by zadok View Post
    Why is any "version of Jake" there at all?? If you died in the "keystone earth" you were dead forever. Yet they were all "alive" in that NYC. Any insight?

    That's fine if 1987 NYC is supposed to be a Grey Havens (speaking of LOTR) sort of "heaven for dead characters", but they should have all known each other, not referred to as "alive", and how did Susannah get there without dying?
    Not sure what the "rules" are for dying on different levels, or that King ever set any hard and fast rules for this.

    As for the LotR, your view of the Grey Havens is a bit off. The Grey Havens were not "Heaven" in any form. The Grey Havens were nothing but a portion of Middle Earth where Cirdan the shipwright maintained the last of the boats which would return the elves into the West when they chose to depart Middle Earth. It's just a port. If you are referring to Valinor, the undying lands in the West, it is for elves only. Even Frodo would eventually have to come back to Middle Earth to physically die. Where he would go after that has never been answered in any Tolkien I've read, but he was clear that while Frodo and Bilbo [and mayhap even Sam] could go to Valinor as ring-bearers, they could not stay there forever. I would imagine the same would go for Gimli who got to go as Legolas' special friend.

  8. #33
    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    Even more interesting, Eddie is wearing a Nozz-a-la teeshirt so they could very well be the version of Eddie and Jake that had to endure the superflu in their future. What a screw for Susannah right?
    Of course it is possible that Nozz-a-la is served on many levels of the Tower. Being on a Nozz-a-la level doesn't guarantee that you are on a Superflu level. Afterall, I firmly believe there are at least two Superful levels. The story we read in The Stand happens in either 1980 or 1990 [depending on which version you've read]. According to the newspaper the tet picks up in Kansas, isn't it 1996 or something like that? Leads me to believe RF unleashed his fun-time virus on multiple levels.

  9. #34
    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    I love that idea and I totally agree.
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

  10. #35
    Along the Path of the Beam zadok is on a distinguished road zadok's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by R_of_G View Post
    Not sure what the "rules" are for dying on different levels, or that King ever set any hard and fast rules for this.
    Remember the multiple times they were in the keystone earth and dying there was "for good", "forever", etc.? In other words, contrasting it against the "rules" of the other worlds. If SK died in that world, the books could never be finished, etc.

    As for the LotR, your view of the Grey Havens is a bit off. The Grey Havens were not "Heaven" in any form. The Grey Havens were nothing but a portion of Middle Earth where Cirdan the shipwright maintained the last of the boats which would return the elves into the West when they chose to depart Middle Earth. It's just a port. If you are referring to Valinor, the undying lands in the West, it is for elves only. Even Frodo would eventually have to come back to Middle Earth to physically die. Where he would go after that has never been answered in any Tolkien I've read, but he was clear that while Frodo and Bilbo [and mayhap even Sam] could go to Valinor as ring-bearers, they could not stay there forever. I would imagine the same would go for Gimli who got to go as Legolas' special friend.
    My bad, you are correct. I was just thinking of SK's afterward where he made reference to a place "where characters go to die" and mentioned LOTR.
    There are other worlds than these...

  11. #36
    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by zadok View Post
    Remember the multiple times they were in the keystone earth and dying there was "for good", "forever", etc.? In other words, contrasting it against the "rules" of the other worlds. If SK died in that world, the books could never be finished, etc.
    I agree with you that this is how the characters themselves interpreted the metaphysics of the different levels, but who's to say they are correct? The character Stephen King states outright that "Eddie and Cuthbert are twins," yet many of us, myself included, don't think this is necessarily so. The characters express their own understandings of the way the Tower works, but this is not to say their word is set in stone. I like the ambiguity.

    My bad, you are correct. I was just thinking of SK's afterward where he made reference to a place "where characters go to die" and mentioned LOTR.
    When I read the part you refer to I gave King the benefit of the doubt that he dis-remembered the specifics of LotR. I know what he meant, and I know what you meant as well. It was still a good reference on your part.

  12. #37
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Why is it different for Susannah? I don't think we need reasons... I mean it wasn't a law that they all had to die next to Roland. For me it made the story more life-like.

    But to tell you the truth I am still a bit angry with Susannah - I know it might be childish - that she could leave Roland there. And I don't know where and how she found some power in herself to do it.

    Roland would have understood.

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    The White! MonteGss is on a distinguished road MonteGss's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    But to tell you the truth I am still a bit angry with Susannah - I know it might be childish - that she could leave Roland there. And I don't know where and how she found some power in herself to do it.
    It may sound childish but I still agree with you. Leaving Roland and throwing away that gun (yeah, yeah, it wasn't a gun then) really ticked me off.

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonteGss View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    But to tell you the truth I am still a bit angry with Susannah - I know it might be childish - that she could leave Roland there. And I don't know where and how she found some power in herself to do it.
    It may sound childish but I still agree with you. Leaving Roland and throwing away that gun (yeah, yeah, it wasn't a gun then) really ticked me off.
    *hugs you* it's good to know that I am not alone with it

    Roland would have understood.

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    The White! MonteGss is on a distinguished road MonteGss's Avatar

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    Letti-hugs are the best hugs.

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    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    But to tell you the truth I am still a bit angry with Susannah - I know it might be childish - that she could leave Roland there. And I don't know where and how she found some power in herself to do it.
    Quote Originally Posted by MonteGss View Post
    It may sound childish but I still agree with you. Leaving Roland and throwing away that gun (yeah, yeah, it wasn't a gun then) really ticked me off.
    I agree with both of you, which was one of the reasons I started this thread. It wasn't until the second time I read DT-7 that I lost a little of my resentment for Susannah for her choices. I still resent her a bit for not having to pay the same price for a ticket to the hot chocolate level of the Tower as Jake and Eddie and Oy did.

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    The White! MonteGss is on a distinguished road MonteGss's Avatar

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    Maybe there is only one Susannah...
    So the only way to join them might be to drive through the door. *shrugs*

  18. #43
    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    It's always about the Twinners with you isn't it Monte. lol
    Still, your theory is as good as any.

  19. #44
    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    will someone start a separate thread, then?
    (although I don't think I have much to add. To me it always seemed obvious. I might find arguments, though, when I see other opinions.)
    it sounds like it's appropriate for my "why different for susannah" thread.my question, perhaps letti's as well, is why do feel susannah's choice to go through the door was motivated by love? i'm not sure it wasn't, but am equally not sure it was. i know she was repeatedly visited by the vision of eddie & jake in central park, but do you think she knew this is where she'd end up if she forsook the Tower and left Roland? she might have known. i suppose one could also make the case that if that's where she thinks eddie and jake wound up after they died that she might end up there as well so long as she stood true. the reason i started that thread was to try and hash out why she wound up in the same place for making a very different choice than jake, eddie or oy.

  20. #45
    The Tenant Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean's Avatar

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    the post above was copied from Oy's Choice thread.

    I never really thought of "why", it seemed obvious to me, like the whole story brought me to feeling that way.

    “But you can’t be sure! Susannah, what if the dream itself is a trick and a glammer? What if the things you see even when the door’s open are nothing but tricks and glammers? What if you roll right through and into todash space?”
    “Then I’ll light the darkness with thoughts of those I love.”


    This kinda sums it up for me. I am ready to think of more reasons than "seemed obvious", though.

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    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

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  21. #46
    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    “Then I’ll light the darkness with thoughts of those I love.”[/COLOR]
    Seems like good reasoning Jean. I actually forgot she says this. So yes, I could see believing love motivated Susannah's decision.

  22. #47
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Jean, I didn't find anything in the book that would give me the idea that Susannah thought she would find Eddie at the other side.
    Did I miss something?
    She just went through that door to find something at the other side...


    "Thought of those..." Plural form. Not just Eddie but all the others with Roland as well.

    Roland would have understood.

  23. #48
    The Tenant Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean's Avatar

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    Nikolett: now it seems to me that we've been reading different books. I'll give more examples presently.

    R_of_G: there's one another thing to all that. I hate simple symbolism in literature, but still. Everyone keeps sacrificing something for that Greater Good I (as a former Soviet citizen) learned to loath so much... Tull population gets massacred, Jake is dropped, old people in River Crossing left with no help, all people of Lud die horrible death without even a second thought from Roland (I know he didn't kill them. I believe you still see the point)... Someone at last had to sacrifice this fucking Greater Good for simple love, or I believe the Tower would have fallen whatever sacrifices were made for its sake.

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  24. #49
    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    I could not agree with you more on that point Jean. This was Susannah's way of showing that there are things more important than his damn Tower.

    I think Roland could have learned a lot more from her.
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

  25. #50
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    Nikolett: now it seems to me that we've been reading different books. I'll give more examples presently.
    I wouldn't like to be picky but if you have some time please show me those examples.
    We didn't read different books but Susannah is much closer to your heart than any other character so it's possible some lines caught your attention that didn't catch mine.
    But still if you have some time... I would like to see them.

    Roland would have understood.

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