I am one of those but mostly because I believe the Tower (as Roland sees it) is for Roland alone.
For instance, what would you say happened to Patrick after the end? Did the world just continue to move on even though the Tower sent Roland back--was there a future for anyone after that?
Yes, I believe time goes on for everybody else. I suppose part of this is because I don't believe the loops are the same every time. If they are the same, it would make more sense for time to "rewind" each time Roland reaches the Tower, but if they are not the same, there's no need to think time itself goes backwards.Originally Posted by Matt
Woofer: I can't produce any positive proof of Susannah understanding anything specific... I agreed with Pere mostly because I liked his idea; also on general principle - Susannah is so usually so much more perceptive and intelligent than the rest that when Pere said that it was like some important piece of the jigsaw puzzle fell into place for me
Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)
bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hrm. I hadn't thought of it that way, but Susannah does seem to know a lost cause when she sees one. Odetta, now she would've kept after him no matter what.
I think she understands that Roland will never change his mind. Mia tells Susannah that Roland's only true aim is to question the "being" at the top of the tower. I think she makes a decision that you cannot argue with irrationality. Also, I get the idea that she thinks that Roland may deserve a bad ending. She loves him, yet of the ka-tet she seems to understand the most that Roland is beyond "saving". He will do as he feels he must, regardless of logic.
Agreed. It was a sign of the Eld, not specifically Roland's gun - well, if we take Walter's belief for it. Note that I don't say his word; Walter was a liar. However, he truly believed that a symbol of the Eld was sufficient. I think that Roland needed to stop Mordred somehow, but I think that he would be much closer to salvation had he been able to turn Mordred rather than kill him.Well, Mordred was dying because he ate Dandelo's horse, which was tainted/poison. Had Roland cried off after Blue Heaven as some have suggested he should, Mordred wouldn't have had to eat the horse. He could have made a nice meal out of Dandelo himself and had Patrick for dessert. He then could have proceeded to the Tower without illness.
As for needing the guns to get in to the Tower, if I'm not mistaken, what was actually required was some sigul of the Eld. Walter seemed to believe Mordred's heel would have met this requirement as he planned on taking it and entering for himself with no apparent plans to take Roland's guns.
So I am still of the opinion that had not Roland proceeded to the Tower, Mordred would have gotten there and met his Red Daddy and that would very likely not be a good situation for the Tower.
I understand, Jean. I was just hoping that someone had some definite passages to which s/he could point to that illustrate the idea.
It'll take a lot more than words and guns,
A whole lot more than riches and muscle.
The hands of the many must join as one.
And together we'll cross the river.
Puscifer, "The Humbling River"
Yes i think tht everyone elses world just keeps going on. I think it's Roland who is doomed to keep going through the same cycle over and over again till he gets it 'right'. Also i believe that the inside of the tower is different for every. Just one reason Eddies, Susanah, Jake and Oy would have never been able to enter it together.
The words written upon this paper, are none compared to the words written upon my heart
Yeah. It fits also with what Roland said in one of his palavers (I believe it was WaG but it might have been The Waste Lands): "Even the past is in motion in my world, rearranging itself in new ways." (Not exact quote, but that was the gist.)
Ironic that he might be the cause of that 'rearranging.' But the others go on. I disagree with the notion that time resets when he goes through the door, he just goes back.
I'm curious why this would be. If it's because she is less sensitive to people's nature (in this case Roland) than Susannah, then yes I think that might be true. If it's because she is more moral than Susannah, I don't think that comes into it. Odetta is a nice lady but she lacks the strength and tenacity of Detta and Susannah. In that sense she would be more likely to turn aside than Susannah.Odetta, now she would've kept after him no matter what.
However, I don't think Susannah turned aside because she was weak. I think it's partly because of what people have said, she knew Roland's nature. Partly because she knew that she was destined to die if she followed him to the Tower. This doesn't make her a coward, or heartless. She had put herself in danger on many occasions, even responsible -with the writer's help- for removing the last enemy before Mordred, namely Dandelo. But there is a difference with giving one's life for a good cause, and sacrificing oneself needlessly.
She sensed it was the end of the road for her. Even her dreams told her too, so she left. In short, she left because she was meant to leave, she knew her place in the story was over.
True Mordred was still a threat (and don't think he wasn't despite being sick. He came very close to taking Roland's life when Patrick was lulled asleep. Thankfully there was another undetected lookout willing to sacrifice his own small life.) But I think Susannah somehow knew that it just wasn't her ka (yes we get back to that again) to remove that particular threat. Why? The dreams. The Tower. Her special perception we've been speaking of.
I'm still undecided on the concept of time resetting only for Roland. Does the Tower put itself back in danger? What about the key players in Roland's life? Even if we consider his childhood friends, all the people he encounters on the way to the tower, and the three he draws (assuming that happens every time) to be interchangeable with others in time, what about those who are part of the prophecy, e.g. the Crimson King and Mordred? Or is that what you mean about his comment that the past is rearranging itself?Yeah. It fits also with what Roland said in one of his palavers (I believe it was WaG but it might have been The Waste Lands): "Even the past is in motion in my world, rearranging itself in new ways." (Not exact quote, but that was the gist.)
Ironic that he might be the cause of that 'rearranging.' But the others go on. I disagree with the notion that time resets when he goes through the door, he just goes back.
I think Odetta would not have seen Roland as a lost cause. On the contrary, I think she would have seen him as a difficult, but very worthy, cause. Nor is it a matter of cowardice. I liken it to her participation in civil rights demonstrations in the 60s. She took part in those knowing that she might be hurt or even killed but it was worth those risks because the cause for which she fought was worth those risks.
It'll take a lot more than words and guns,
A whole lot more than riches and muscle.
The hands of the many must join as one.
And together we'll cross the river.
Puscifer, "The Humbling River"
The last line of Dark Tower clearly shows that time doesn't just reset for Roland. While things may progress differently in each loop, I believe it does for all others as well, but each retains a piece of what happened in the previous loops, which I believe explains why Eddie, Jake, and Susannah learn the ways of a gunslinger so quickly.
*Points up to the many other responses in this thread that dispute this idea* Clearly not everyone believes it clearly shows that.
In all seriousness, that's the sort of thing I question. Is it the same man in black? Another? Does time reset for Roland + key people? That's exactly the reservations I was expressing in the post immediately above yours.
It'll take a lot more than words and guns,
A whole lot more than riches and muscle.
The hands of the many must join as one.
And together we'll cross the river.
Puscifer, "The Humbling River"
Exactly Woofer. It doesn't "clearly" show anything (which I think is the whole point). It shows only that Roland's quest has begun again in the desert and that he is once more chasing the man in black (whom we know to be at least semi-immortal). It doesn't clearly say anything about anything else. It's intentionally ambiguous.
That's what makes me think this whole thing is not about the end of the mulitverse at all, its really just about Roland.
Which means that the story itself is about personal obsession and salvation which is ok with me.
Only in the sense that if the beams were broken the Tower would certainly fall. However I think Roland and his ka-tet will always save the beams, and since the Tower/Gan knows that (existing in all times and space) it/he knows it/he is safe. If that makes sense?
Interchangeable? Are you referring to different people being drawn each loop?What about the key players in Roland's life? Even if we consider his childhood friends, all the people he encounters on the way to the tower, and the three he draws (assuming that happens every time) to be interchangeable with others in time, what about those who are part of the prophecy, e.g. the Crimson King and Mordred? Or is that what you mean about his comment that the past is rearranging itself?
I'm personally of the opinion it will always be them that are drawn (or versions of them.) I remember Roland speculating that only death can break Ka-tet, and even then he wasn't certain. Hence I think they're always bound together.
The Crimson King existed before the point in which Roland loops. He's intrinsically bound to Roland in his own way, and as such he will always be The Enemy. Mordred was conceived within the loop, but I think he always will be too, considering the prophesy (which also happened before the loop.) I think all the main things that happen will always happen, but there is room for variance as far as personal choices concerning a person's own life is concerned. So each loop isn't exactly the same (i.e. Roland has the horn for one thing.) And each decision made will cause slight changes in the time-line. Hence my mention of the past rearranging itself. (I.e from the point of view of people in the future from that point. Like those palavering in topeka.)
I see what you mean. I think that part of Odetta was inherited by Susannah though, and if anything her harder Detta side (which isn't all negative remember) would have made her all the more likely to support Roland and his quest. If anything I think the moral Odetta would have lacked the steel to continue, and may not even have taken to Roland in the first place. For all her genuine sweetness, she was quite a self-righteous lady and would have disagreed* with Roland's single minded obsession with the Tower. The fact that the more rounded Susannah turned aside too, suggests she was meant to.I think Odetta would not have seen Roland as a lost cause. On the contrary, I think she would have seen him as a difficult, but very worthy, cause. Nor is it a matter of cowardice. I liken it to her participation in civil rights demonstrations in the 60s. She took part in those knowing that she might be hurt or even killed but it was worth those risks because the cause for which she fought was worth those risks.
*'Disagreed isn't the word I was looking for. I'm having one of those 'word at the tip of your toungue moments. Except fingers in this case. Annoying thing is it's a common word, but I just can't think of it. When someone has a negative view of another's actions of or viewpoint.
Just a thought, mayhap these loops are not wound round and round, but lain side by side. What I mean is, different reality becomes the next keystone world(s.) It would also explain the lack of memory, and the changes with each loop.
Susannah is the Lady of 'Shadows,' it's a 'Dark' Tower.
If you don't stand true, you'll never get anywhere near close enough to pet my dog.
Yes, but in the loop that we read, the world is in the state it is in because the beams are breaking and the Tower is in danger. Roland talks with delah people on the way who have seen this and remark on it. They even experience a beamquake when another goes. Maybe they've not recovered from the previous loop, but that doesn't feel right to me.Only in the sense that if the beams were broken the Tower would certainly fall. However I think Roland and his ka-tet will always save the beams, and since the Tower/Gan knows that (existing in all times and space) it/he knows it/he is safe. If that makes sense?
I mean both the people Roland draws and the minor characters he meets along the way, e.g. Allie, Brown, Aunt Talitha, Gasher, et al. Presumably, from the way the story loops, he walks the same path to the Tower because he'll follow the signs of the beam once he reaches that point, so is Lud still destroyed? Blaine? How will he cross the Wastelands? Do those "things" reset but not the people? Does the Crimson King then go back to his castle? Is another, new Mordred conceived?Interchangeable? Are you referring to different people being drawn each loop?
I'm personally of the opinion it will always be them that are drawn (or versions of them.) I remember Roland speculating that only death can break Ka-tet, and even then he wasn't certain. Hence I think they're always bound together.
The Crimson King existed before the point in which Roland loops. He's intrinsically bound to Roland in his own way, and as such he will always be The Enemy. Mordred was conceived within the loop, but I think he always will be too, considering the prophesy (which also happened before the loop.) I think all the main things that happen will always happen, but there is room for variance as far as personal choices concerning a person's own life is concerned. So each loop isn't exactly the same (i.e. Roland has the horn for one thing.) And each decision made will cause slight changes in the time-line. Hence my mention of the past rearranging itself. (I.e from the point of view of people in the future from that point. Like those palavering in topeka.)
I'm honestly not trying to argue for the sake of it. These are aspects of the story concept that I ponder. A lot.
When I said Odetta, I was thinking of Odetta with Detta still lurking in the background. But I like your ideas here.I see what you mean. I think that part of Odetta was inherited by Susannah though, and if anything her harder Detta side (which isn't all negative remember) would have made her all the more likely to support Roland and his quest. If anything I think the moral Odetta would have lacked the steel to continue, and may not even have taken to Roland in the first place. For all her genuine sweetness, she was quite a self-righteous lady and would have disagreed* with Roland's single minded obsession with the Tower. The fact that the more rounded Susannah turned aside too, suggests she was meant to.
Heh heh heh. I hate when that happens! *comf*
Nice idea, but Roland says something like "Oh no, not again" at the end, which does seem to indicate that it is the same reality and not an alternate or adjacent one.
Last edited by Woofer; 09-24-2008 at 04:02 AM. Reason: Fix a typo.
It'll take a lot more than words and guns,
A whole lot more than riches and muscle.
The hands of the many must join as one.
And together we'll cross the river.
Puscifer, "The Humbling River"
No the beams were fixed, and from that point on they become stronger and regenerate. Roland was sent back to before they were fixed. It's not a matter of them not recovering from the previous loop as I think the loop only applies to Roland.
i Believe all these things happen again yes. Or more specifically Roland is sent back, he meets everyone again for the first time from their point of view (and his too in the sense that he has forgotten the previous loops except for some subconscious inclinations.) 'Reset' suggest they all went back to, but I don't think that's the case... (we might be saying the same thing just a different way actually.) Think of a linear time-line, which the majority of people travel on from beginning to end. When Roland is sent back he intersects with their past lives. He's the only one resetting.I mean both the people Roland draws and the minor characters he meets along the way, e.g. Allie, Brown, Aunt Talitha, Gasher, et al. Presumably, from the way the story loops, he walks the same path to the Tower because he'll follow the signs of the beam once he reaches that point, so is Lud still destroyed? Blaine? How will he cross the Wastelands? Do those "things" reset but not the people?
Not another Mordred, the same Mordred is conceived. As for the King, I'd say yes (although just to be confusing I think he might be simultaneously in the Tower prison too, due to the fact he darkles and tincts, and the Tower is in all space and all time. Hence when you're in the tower, you're also in all space and time... even after you've left or before you arrive. (yeah I'm not sure about that either....)Does the Crimson King then go back to his castle? Is another, new Mordred conceived?
Nah that's ok. It's an interesting discussion.I'm honestly not trying to argue for the sake of it. These are aspects of the story concept that I ponder. A lot.
Ok. Thanks.When I said Odetta, I was thinking of Odetta with Detta still lurking in the background. But I like your ideas here.
Ahhhh, I see. Very, very interesting. Thanks for the explanations, Brainslinger!
It'll take a lot more than words and guns,
A whole lot more than riches and muscle.
The hands of the many must join as one.
And together we'll cross the river.
Puscifer, "The Humbling River"
I agree with this, I think like Roland, the Crimson King is trapped in the loop and the Tower is his prison. One of the many reasons he's trying to destroy it. One of the things that makes him go mad is not being able to stop Roland and his ka-tet that he draws, in his never ending quest.
"It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.
"When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah
I agree with this. Jake dies in the keystone world and they kept saying that was final. So he should be gone, though I hate that. If he was to live on any plain he would do everything to get back to Roland, it was what he was about through and through.
As for Suzannah, I will piss many off for saying this but I thought she was selfish and self rightous and she renounced the tower and in turn spit in Roland, Eddie, Jake and Oy's face by doing so. They all gave their lives for the tower and what it stood for as well as what Roland stood for. Roland understood and went on in their names. Suzannah knew she would die if she continued because she knew Roland had to breach the tower alone, it was his Ka. So she chose to abandon him and the idea. Just like she blamed him for everything whenever something bad happened.
Ok so here is my question on this...If Roland has learned this time, he has the horn of Eld now, and he does not sacrifice Jake in the mountains will Jake die or disappear when Roland goes through the 3rd door and stops Jack from pushing him? Or does he just let Jack push him and inturn never unite Detta and Odetta?No the beams were fixed, and from that point on they become stronger and regenerate. Roland was sent back to before they were fixed. It's not a matter of them not recovering from the previous loop as I think the loop only applies to Roland.
i Believe all these things happen again yes. Or more specifically Roland is sent back, he meets everyone again for the first time from their point of view (and his too in the sense that he has forgotten the previous loops except for some subconscious inclinations.) 'Reset' suggest they all went back to, but I don't think that's the case... (we might be saying the same thing just a different way actually.) Think of a linear time-line, which the majority of people travel on from beginning to end. When Roland is sent back he intersects with their past lives. He's the only one resetting.I mean both the people Roland draws and the minor characters he meets along the way, e.g. Allie, Brown, Aunt Talitha, Gasher, et al. Presumably, from the way the story loops, he walks the same path to the Tower because he'll follow the signs of the beam once he reaches that point, so is Lud still destroyed? Blaine? How will he cross the Wastelands? Do those "things" reset but not the people?
Not another Mordred, the same Mordred is conceived. As for the King, I'd say yes (although just to be confusing I think he might be simultaneously in the Tower prison too, due to the fact he darkles and tincts, and the Tower is in all space and all time. Hence when you're in the tower, you're also in all space and time... even after you've left or before you arrive. (yeah I'm not sure about that either....)Does the Crimson King then go back to his castle? Is another, new Mordred conceived?
Nah that's ok. It's an interesting discussion.I'm honestly not trying to argue for the sake of it. These are aspects of the story concept that I ponder. A lot.
Ok. Thanks.When I said Odetta, I was thinking of Odetta with Detta still lurking in the background. But I like your ideas here.
It's interesting though because it seems Roland DOES retain memory from his loops. There are a couple of points where he thinks he's having deja vu when actually it's memories.
"It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.
"When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah
Started a re-read of Book 7. On this read, I asked myself, why just Roland? I guess some version of what happens with Roland happens with the other characters. I think I started thinking, Why just Roland? before reading SOS and Susannah's moments with Mia on the allure.
But the first time with Mia, that section read like Roland's time with Walter, Book 1. So could it be that Susannah has a version of Roland's Tower? Early in Book 7, Nigel is walking with her in his arms and she's feeling a little sorry for him...he says his days of service are nearly over, then he says O Discordia! She starts remembering things..."had it been a dream? a vision? a glimpse of her Tower?--something from her time with Mia."
Or has she already "recycled"? Bad pun, if it is at all. When Mia took Susannah to the Doorway Cave, she rode on some kind of ATV, something with big tires. Don't recall exactly what the Ho-Fat taxi is, some kind of motorized chair, I guess, but seems like a kind of doubling from earlier, after the battle with the wolves.
Or is that bit about "her Tower" a mind trap?
Eddie and Jake are from a different level of the Tower when Suze joins them in the end. They are not the same Eddie and Jake (they are brothers, for instance) as the two that died on the path of the beam.
The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket
Sorry, but wouldn't there already be a "that words copy" of Sussanah that already existed?
Maybe she died when the brick hit her in the head as a kid, or when the train hit her as an adult.
If every level of the Tower represents the infinite possibilities, there must be a world where Odetta didn't survive one of those experiences. Maybe this one is it.
Or maybe she has never been born at all because her great-great-grandmother died early and she never had children.Maybe she died when the brick hit her in the head as a kid, or when the train hit her as an adult.
If every level of the Tower represents the infinite possibilities, there must be a world where Odetta didn't survive one of those experiences. Maybe this one is it.
Roland would have understood.
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