Why Different For Susannah?

[jayson]

Susan gets to live this time.

I'm not sure I see the connection you do between things that happen to Susan and things that happen to Susannah. Other than the name similarities, I see nothing which evidences any direct correlation between the two. For that matter, why do you think Susan lives "this time" [by which I assume you mean in the next loop]? If Roland starts again at the desert we have no reason to assume we know what happened "this time" prior to that.

[To The Dark Tower Came]

I've talked a little about what I think the Tower is and means in other threads, so I won't do all that here. I think that the reason Susannah left without dying is simple.

She was Roland's last chance not to fall into the cycle (again) we see at the end. When she is tugged at by the feeling that she is not meant to see the Tower, renouncing it, it's another signal to Roland that his tet is trying to save him from his fate.

Perhaps if he had heard her, heard her very well, that she was not supposed to goto the Tower, and figured out that she was feeling the pull of ka, and that maybe a little of their tet's magic remained, he should not go as well. He could have turned aside and gone with her. Lived life, truly involved in it. So Susannah was the voice of ka, in my opinion. But she survived almost to the Tower so she could deliver this last message by her words and actions.

[Matt]

Very well said man, I totally agree.

I'm not sure if I would have wanted him to actually go with her but he really could have learned something from her right then imo

[Letti]

I've talked a little about what I think the Tower is and means in other threads, so I won't do all that here. I think that the reason Susannah left without dying is simple.

She was Roland's last chance not to fall into the cycle (again) we see at the end. When she is tugged at by the feeling that she is not meant to see the Tower, renouncing it, it's another signal to Roland that his tet is trying to save him from his fate.

Perhaps if he had heard her, heard her very well, that she was not supposed to goto the Tower, and figured out that she was feeling the pull of ka, and that maybe a little of their tet's magic remained, he should not go as well. He could have turned aside and gone with her. Lived life, truly involved in it. So Susannah was the voice of ka, in my opinion. But she survived almost to the Tower so she could deliver this last message by her words and actions.

What an interesting point. I will have to think about it but I like it already. I am sure I won't agree on everything but you showed me something I didn't or I couldn't see before. Thank you for it.
Let me think about it..

[ZoNeSeeK]

If there is a reason (because the answer to "Why?" could simply be "Why not?"), then I think its for a similar reason as to why Callahan was left open after 'Salems Lot - King probably wants Susannah (the same Susannah that stood with Roland, not an alternate version) to be available for future works. He could have something boiling in the back of his mind, maybe for the next Sawyer adventure? He has said "No more Roland stories", but he never said anything about Susannah. Who knows?

[Matt]

That's a very good point. I suppose he could bring the three of them back at this point.

Little Jake would have a loyal dog and remember weird stuff about another friend.

[obscurejude]

I've talked a little about what I think the Tower is and means in other threads, so I won't do all that here. I think that the reason Susannah left without dying is simple.

She was Roland's last chance not to fall into the cycle (again) we see at the end. When she is tugged at by the feeling that she is not meant to see the Tower, renouncing it, it's another signal to Roland that his tet is trying to save him from his fate.

Perhaps if he had heard her, heard her very well, that she was not supposed to goto the Tower, and figured out that she was feeling the pull of ka, and that maybe a little of their tet's magic remained, he should not go as well. He could have turned aside and gone with her. Lived life, truly involved in it. So Susannah was the voice of ka, in my opinion. But she survived almost to the Tower so she could deliver this last message by her words and actions.

Well said. Like Matt, I'm not sure I would have wanted Roland to go with her but I think you posed a very viable opinion as to why it was different for Susannah. I never really thought of Susannah as much of a gunslinger anyways (not that you implied that). Her role in the tale always seemed different from the others in the sense that she aided the quest in significant ways that had little to do with guns and bullets (I'm not saying she didn't have her moments with a sixshooter or a Riza).

[To The Dark Tower Came]

Well said. Like Matt, I'm not sure I would have wanted Roland to go with her but I think you posed a very viable opinion as to why it was different for Susannah. I never really thought of Susannah as much of a gunslinger anyways (not that you implied that). Her role in the tale always seemed different from the others in the sense that she aided the quest in significant ways that had little to do with guns and bullets (I'm not saying she didn't have her moments with a sixshooter or a Riza).

Thankee, sai.

I always saw her as the face of reality in Roland's tet. Jake was Rolan'd child-side, forced to grow up fast, betrayed by someone he loved, Eddie was Roland's human side, the "screw you", I'm gonna laugh in your face, wise cracking side. These were aspects Roland lacked (and should have learned from).

Susannah represented a look at reality. The way things are instead of deluding oneself. She was a literal living duality, that made a whole person who saw things more close to how they really were, than the others. She had set backs (lol) with Mia, and such, but even that helped her. Hearing Mia helped her understand the state of their journey, the overwhelming state. And in the end she was that look of reality that said, "It's over. I no longer need this Tower. I'm going to live my life. Not going? Bye."

She was in that cycle what Roland was supposed to be. She got rewarded for it.

[jayson]

I always saw her as the face of reality in Roland's tet. Jake was Rolan'd child-side, forced to grow up fast, betrayed by someone he loved, Eddie was Roland's human side, the "screw you", I'm gonna laugh in your face, wise cracking side. These were aspects Roland lacked (and should have learned from).

Back to our use-your-own-metaphor version of buddhism discussion, this is one where i agree with you. the members of the tet can easily represent aspects in which roland's personality is lacking. they play a similar role to dorothy's companions, each one representing something she was lacking in herself. i think it no coincidence that king made multiple references to the wizard of oz.

[Letti]

obscurejude, it's interesting that you didn't think of Susannah as much of a gunslinger. Susannah is not my favourite character I have quite mixed feelings about her but she is a big great gunslinger in my eyes no question.

[To The Dark Tower Came]

Back to our use-your-own-metaphor version of buddhism discussion, this is one where i agree with you. the members of the tet can easily represent aspects in which roland's personality is lacking. they play a similar role to dorothy's companions, each one representing something she was lacking in herself. i think it no coincidence that king made multiple references to the wizard of oz.

It's a pretty common theme in literature, especially fantasy. Eddie, Jake, and Susannah being what Roland should have been as an individual in order to carry out his journey making the decisions with the benefit of those aspects. Though I know you dislike the theory (heh), I think that as Roland progresses towards his individual "enlightenment" characters like Susannah, Eddie, Jake, and others too, would be less necessary.

Notice when all the character's leave the story. Eddie dies in Blue Heaven, because from there on, Roland has no more need of humor. He has already missed that aspect in Eddie although we glimpse it's roots deepening, he still isn't learning. Jake dies after saving King because Roland cannot put love, even of one he calls his son, above the mission to save his Tower though again we see the roots deepen but not fully form. And like I said, he can't hear Susannah's last message to him to see thing for what they really are. He doesn't need to enter the Tower, he has already saved it.

Susannah does understand this, and goes. Rewarded by Gan for her real sacrifices and full understanding.

[jayson]

Though I know you dislike the theory (heh), I think that as Roland progresses towards his individual "enlightenment" characters like Susannah, Eddie, Jake, and others too, would be less necessary.

That portion of the theory not only do I not dislike, I agree with. That is why I don't believe the loops are the same every time. He doesn't need the same thing in his ka-mates every time. He may not even need ka-mates every time. What I ultimately don't believe is that the Tower can ever be put safe permanently. It is Roland's duty to protect it, in perpetuity.

[obscurejude]

obscurejude, it's interesting that you didn't think of Susannah as much of a gunslinger. Susannah is not my favourite character I have quite mixed feelings about her but she is a big great gunslinger in my eyes no question.

She threw one of the guns of Eld in a trashcan!

[To The Dark Tower Came]

That portion of the theory not only do I not dislike, I agree with. That is why I don't believe the loops are the same every time. He doesn't need the same thing in his ka-mates every time. He may not even need ka-mates every time. What I ultimately don't believe is that the Tower can ever be put safe permanently. It is Roland's duty to protect it, in perpetuity.

My mistake, I did know we agreed on the loops, just the reason behind them, we disagree ...heh

[To The Dark Tower Came]

She threw one of the guns of Eld in a trashcan!

Of course she did She knew it was no longer a necessity. She had moved beyond it.

[obscurejude]

She threw one of the guns of Eld in a trashcan!

Of course she did She knew it was no longer a necessity. She had moved beyond it.

I don't agree with you across the board, but we certainly agree that her role was very different in Roland's quest- i.e. beyond that of a gunslinger. I have ambivalent feelings about this particular scene though, and am still sorting through what it means exactly.

[Letti]

obscurejude, it's interesting that you didn't think of Susannah as much of a gunslinger. Susannah is not my favourite character I have quite mixed feelings about her but she is a big great gunslinger in my eyes no question.

She threw one of the guns of Eld in a trashcan!

Do you mean that before that she was a big gunslinger to you?

[obscurejude]

obscurejude, it's interesting that you didn't think of Susannah as much of a gunslinger. Susannah is not my favourite character I have quite mixed feelings about her but she is a big great gunslinger in my eyes no question.

She threw one of the guns of Eld in a trashcan!

Do you mean that before that she was a big gunslinger to you?

No, Letti. Like I said, she had her moments, but she was different than the others. That is why (I believe anyways) that her ending was different than the rest of the Ka-Tet's. They would have gone on to the tower, even if Roland died. (Eddie said so himself plenty of times). Susannah was different. She didn't continue, and I can't think of a more vivid way to portray that than her throwing away the gun. It was a fitting end because it was the way she was portrayed from the beginning. So, she was always that way to me to answer your question.

[Wuducynn]

She threw one of the guns of Eld in a trashcan!

At the point she threw it in the trashcan it sure didn't seem to be one of the Guns of Eld anymore, it had changed and was just a piece of metal in the shape of a gun.

[obscurejude]

I don't know how to respond to that.

[Letti]

obscurejude, it's interesting that you didn't think of Susannah as much of a gunslinger. Susannah is not my favourite character I have quite mixed feelings about her but she is a big great gunslinger in my eyes no question.

She threw one of the guns of Eld in a trashcan!

Do you mean that before that she was a big gunslinger to you?

No, Letti. Like I said, she had her moments, but she was different than the others. That is why (I believe anyways) that her ending was different than the rest of the Ka-Tet's. They would have gone on to the tower, even if Roland died. (Eddie said so himself plenty of times). Susannah was different. She didn't continue, and I can't think of a more vivid way to portray that than her throwing away the gun. It was a fitting end because it was the way she was portrayed from the beginning. So, she was always that way to me to answer your question.

I see your point but I didn't see her this way.
They all were very different and similar at the same time.
For my part I am not sure at all that Jake could have gone on if Roland had died. Eddie could but Jake... I am not sure.

[alinda]

This statement is brillant.It's something I had not thought of. Its been a whike since someone said something so.....remarkable. Thanks!




What I ultimately don't believe is that the Tower can ever be put safe permanently. It is Roland's duty to protect it, in perpetuity.[/QUOTE]

[jayson]

i too have problems with susannah trashing the gun, though i agree with matt that it was no longer a gun of the eld so to speak. nonetheless, it was still a sigul of the eld and she still had the knowledge of what that meant and chose to symbolically trash it. i would never say susannah wasn't a gunslinger, her actions throughout show she was. it's bc i see her as a gunslinger that i have issues with what she did with the gun.

[MonteGss]

i too have problems with susannah trashing the gun, though i agree with matt that it was no longer a gun of the eld so to speak. nonetheless, it was still a sigul of the eld and she still had the knowledge of what that meant and chose to symbolically trash it. i would never say susannah wasn't a gunslinger, her actions throughout show she was. it's bc i see her as a gunslinger that i have issues with what she did with the gun.

My thoughts EXACTLY. Well said. I will never be able to forgive her for throwing that gun away, no matter what it looked like after she went thru the door.

[jayson]

it's the ultimate souvenir, whether or not she remembers the trip in the end.