Randall Flagg - discussion of the character and his many guises

[LadyHitchhiker]

Flagg should be in every story...

[Candice Dionysus]

I honestly don't think Flagg really died. We've seen before that he always manages to escape just before his death, and I believe that, given how hungry Mordred was very shortly after, Flagg's death was in fact an illusion for Mordred. But I'm in love with Flagg, so my theory could technically be called bull on account of my being so biased. Depends on the person, really.

Though I do agree, his being in book Seven was useless, and all the anticipation leading up to it was like coming so close to climax, and having your partner finish before you, roll over, and pass out. Not very fun, extremely aggravating. And while I was not happy with that one aspect of the book, there were so many other aspects that surprised and delighted me that I'm not really feeling the "right" to complain about it, so to speak. Even if I am in love with Flagg.

[ATG]

I honestly don't think Flagg really died. We've seen before that he always manages to escape just before his death, and I believe that, given how hungry Mordred was very shortly after, Flagg's death was in fact an illusion for Mordred. But I'm in love with Flagg, so my theory could technically be called bull on account of my being so biased. Depends on the person, really.

Though I do agree, his being in book Seven was useless, and all the anticipation leading up to it was like coming so close to climax, and having your partner finish before you, roll over, and pass out. Not very fun, extremely aggravating. And while I was not happy with that one aspect of the book, there were so many other aspects that surprised and delighted me that I'm not really feeling the "right" to complain about it, so to speak. Even if I am in love with Flagg.

Even if Mordred did kill him, it wasn't on a level of the Tower where death is forever.

[Candice Dionysus]

Even if Mordred did kill him, it wasn't on a level of the Tower where death is forever.

That's true, but we also don't know if Flagg himself is originally from a level where Death is forever or not. If he was, and he had left his level of the tower, and died on another, would it still count as forever? How would that work?

I think if Flagg died on a level of the tower where death was not forever, his death wouldn't count as forever, because that level's timeline could be changed. Someone could go back and alter the course of things if they really felt the need (though considering its Flagg, I don't think many people from the series would jump at the chance to save him). But I could be wrong, and, against all logic, it could still count as permanent simply because he was originally from a level where death meant just that, death.

I really should speak up in discussions more often, but I only ever seem to want to in the middle of the night. I have to be at work in seven hours, so I need to go get some sleep. I will certainly be replying to anything else you might have to say on the subject, though, after work.

[Jon]

I voted yes. I am a huge fan of "The Stand" and I wanted that charcter of tangable evil.

[CyberGhostface]

I say yes because he was a main component of the ties to the other books.

The Stand is generally considered his best book ( ATG ducks ), and RF was a major character, therefor he had to be there.

But if nothing was done with the character, what's the point? No one had to be there.

I honestly don't think Flagg really died. We've seen before that he always manages to escape just before his death, and I believe that, given how hungry Mordred was very shortly after, Flagg's death was in fact an illusion for Mordred. But I'm in love with Flagg, so my theory could technically be called bull on account of my being so biased. Depends on the person, really.

On the other occasions he's vanished when the going got tough. There's nothing to suggest that here.

I voted yes. I am a huge fan of "The Stand" and I wanted that charcter of tangable evil.

I wonder if all the people voting "Yes" have even read my initial argument or are just voting because they think he's cool. I don't have a problem with people voting "Yes" but the very least they could do is try to refute my argument.

[cozener]

I've never thought he was necessary but I did enjoy having him there. It added spice. Having Flagg be Walter and Marten added depth to those characters because Flagg himself is developed in The Stand. Then again, having read The Stand after I finished DT I can tell you from my perspective that those two characters could have done without that boost but they wouldn't have been the same characters in the end.

I just wish that Flagg was used differently. The question you raised Cyber, to me, forces the question of Flagg's death. This is another place where Flagg should have been used differently but I don't want to get into that. Its a whole topic in and of itself.

I would have liked to have seen more of Flagg throughout the series to justify a "yes, he was needed" response. I would have liked it if he were a more constant threat to the ka-tet. Perhaps not directly, but through agents like he was with Ticktock. Flagg is the type that likes to do his dirty work through others and seldom does things himself. The exception to that would have been his showdown with Roland in and/or around the Tower.

In short, no. He wasn't necessary but could have and should have been.

[Letti]

CGF, my question might sound very stupid but when you ask this question we must think of just those things Flagg did under this name, Flagg? So when he did something as Walter or anybody else that doesn't count?

[Candice Dionysus]

I honestly don't think Flagg really died. We've seen before that he always manages to escape just before his death, and I believe that, given how hungry Mordred was very shortly after, Flagg's death was in fact an illusion for Mordred. But I'm in love with Flagg, so my theory could technically be called bull on account of my being so biased. Depends on the person, really.

On the other occasions he's vanished when the going got tough. There's nothing to suggest that here.

I know. Its really just my personal opinion on things, which is why I added that depending on the person, it could be called bull. Its really just wishful thinking on my part.

Besides, I agreed that there was really no point to him being there, all said and done. He served no tangible purpose aside from being a light snack for Mordred, and that was unsatisfying (both for Mordred and for myself).

[CyberGhostface]

Ck, my question might sound very stupid but when you ask this question we must think of just those things Flagg did under this name, Flagg? So when he did something as Walter or anybody else that doesn't count?

Yes, for the purpose of my argument, I'm referring to Flagg just under the name Flagg.

His connections to Walter, for example, were revealed late in the series and were probably added at the last minute (with his revision of the Gunslinger and contradictions with the second through fourth books).

So, in my opinion, saying that "Of course he was important, he seduced Gabrielle" or something similar wouldn't be a valid argument because when Marten was first established he wasn't Flagg and the story could have very well gone on without him being him.

The *only* place in the series where Flagg would be missed would be in Wizard and Glass. But even then the series would still be minimally different. Besides Flagg being "cool" (and I'm not arguing he isn't) there really is no way to say that introducing Flagg was good for King in the long run when he did nothing with the character.

[Letti]

Aha. I see.
Okay, it's not easy to answer because I say everyone every single character was needed in the series even if they didn't do more but said two words. But Flagg did much more. You yourself write that he had an important part in the series only once where we could miss him but that only part can give me the answer: yes!.
But anyway I guess he had to appear because he is that character who appears in other books and he has a very important in King's books and he

Spoiler:

found the end of the path

in King's longest and biggest series.
And for me it's very hard to tell the names apart because we know they were one. Like Will Dearborn and Roland are the same person.
But anyway I see your point and I can understand if you say he wasn't needed at all.

[Wuducynn]

Ck, my question might sound very stupid but when you ask this question we must think of just those things Flagg did under this name, Flagg? So when he did something as Walter or anybody else that doesn't count?

I never said I thought a question of yours was stupid Letti. I don't know what you're referring to.

[Letti]

I never said I thought a question of yours was stupid Letti. I don't know what you're referring to.

???

[Wuducynn]

Look above.

[Letti]

Oh, now I know why you said it. Thank you. But It was quite late when I asked it and I wanted to type CGF... but I typed CK... sometimes I don't understand myself but I guess you are always on my mind.
*goes to edit it*

[Wuducynn]

Oh! Nevermind then!

[CyberGhostface]

Aha. I see.
Okay, it's not easy to answer because I say everyone every single character was needed in the series even if they didn't do more but said two words. But Flagg did much more.

What did he do that was so important to the series?

You yourself write that he had an important part in the series only once where we could miss him but that only part can give me the answer: yes!.

You mean the Wizard and Glass scene? Why?

But anyway I guess he had to appear because he is that character who appears in other books and he has a very important in King's books

He appeared in two other books before DT. I suppose that could count as grounds for putting him in the series, but King shouldn't have introduced him into the series if all he was going to get was a series of a cameos that led to nothing. But I don't get the "He was a big villain, he had to appear." Pennywise was a pretty epic villain, where was he? (And no, I don't buy that he was Dandelo...but if he was, that would be another point against King for giving his greatest villains anticlimatic ends that serve no purpose.)

and he

Spoiler:

found the end of the path

in King's longest and biggest series.

How is that important to the rest of the series? It was only mentioned TWICE by Roland, and both of those were in passing as if he could care less. "Hmmph. Oh well."

And for me it's very hard to tell the names apart because we know they were one. Like Will Dearborn and Roland are the same person.

That comparision would work if Will Dearborn was a seperate character from Roland and then King retconned the novels into saying he was Roland all along. Walter and Marten were completely seperate characters, one who had died in the first novel, and King resurrected Walter when the series was almost over. Had he been Walter from day one (and he wasn't--or else King wouldn't have had to rewrite the ending of the first one and leave the door open for Walter's survival) there might be a point.

And its not that hard to consider them different people, given that Walter, Marten and Flagg all look and act pretty different.

[Letti]

Aha. I see.
Okay, it's not easy to answer because I say everyone every single character was needed in the series even if they didn't do more but said two words. But Flagg did much more.

1. What did he do that was so important to the series?

You yourself write that he had an important part in the series only once where we could miss him but that only part can give me the answer: yes!.

2. You mean the Wizard and Glass scene? Why?

But anyway I guess he had to appear because he is that character who appears in other books and he has a very important in King's books

3. He appeared in two other books before DT. I suppose that could count as grounds for putting him in the series, but King shouldn't have introduced him into the series if all he was going to get was a series of a cameos that led to nothing. But I don't get the "He was a big villain, he had to appear." Pennywise was a pretty epic villain, where was he? (And no, I don't buy that he was Dandelo...but if he was, that would be another point against King for giving his greatest villains anticlimatic ends that serve no purpose.)

and he

Spoiler:

found the end of the path

in King's longest and biggest series.

4. How is that important to the rest of the series? It was only mentioned TWICE by Roland, and both of those were in passing as if he could care less. "Hmmph. Oh well."

And for me it's very hard to tell the names apart because we know they were one. Like Will Dearborn and Roland are the same person.

That comparision would work if Will Dearborn was a seperate character from Roland and then King retconned the novels into saying he was Roland all along. Walter and Marten were completely seperate characters, one who had died in the first novel, and King resurrected Walter when the series was almost over. Had he been Walter from day one (and he wasn't--or else King wouldn't have had to rewrite the ending of the first one and leave the door open for Walter's survival) there might be a point.

5. And its not that hard to consider them different people, given that Walter, Marten and Flagg all look and act pretty different.

1. I didn't say he did anything that was so important to the series. I said the way I look at this series or any other books I say everyone is important even those characters who say two words and he, Flagg did much more. (He talked much more than saying two words I guess we can agree about it.)

2. What why? You wrote somewhere that was the only important scene where he appeared. Did't you?

3. I don't say he had to appear but he did. Noone has to appear. People are appearing and disappearing in the books.

4. Many things happen in the books that aren't important to the rest of the series. When we read a book we get lots of infomration about people a stuff that aren't important at all for the book itself.
Anyway I guess if Flagg

Spoiler:

hadn't died I don't think Roland could have reached the Tower so easily.

Of course it's just a guess and nomore.
Roland mentoned it only twice... and? Yeah, he is an important character but he is not God or something. Roland is that type of person who doesn't talk about his enemies much anyway. And if

Spoiler:

they are dead

he loses his interest.

5. For me they behaved and talked the same way or in a very similar way.

[CyberGhostface]

1. I didn't say he did anything that was so important to the series. I said the way I look at this series or any other books I say everyone is important even those characters who say two words and he, Flagg did much more. (He talked much more than saying two words I guess we can agree about it.)

Well, thats not the way I look at it. I mean, if the old whore with the bad makeup job was removed from Wizard and Glass would anyone care? Obviously Flagg's not on the same level as her, but I don't buy the "If he's in the book he's important" bit.

2. What why? You wrote somewhere that was the only important scene where he appeared. Did't you?

Its the only scene that couldn't be removed as easily as the other ones, but that alone doesn't validate his importance in the series.

3. I don't say he had to appear but he did. Noone has to appear. People are appearing and disappearing in the books.

Yes. He didn't have to appear, but he did. And in the end that was a bad decision and a waste of a good character on King's part.

4. Many things happen in the books that aren't important to the rest of the series. When we read a book we get lots of infomration about people a stuff that aren't important at all for the book itself.

Right, but again, I don't see how this justifies Flagg being in the series. You're pretty much saying "Well, not everyone has to be important." But we're talking about a major King villain. Either do SOMETHING with his character or don't bring him in at all. 'Cause from where I'm standing all King did was say "Hey everyone, its Flagg! Oops, he's dead now. Sorry!"

Anyway I guess if Flagg

Spoiler:

hadn't died I don't think Roland could have reached the Tower so easily.

Of course it's just a guess and nomore.

Is that a good thing? Wouldn't it be more interesting if Roland was more challenged when he got to the Tower instead of having it easy? I think battling Flagg would be more satisfying than the old geriatric throwing Harry Potter sneetches at him...(BTW, you don't have to tag all your spoilers since the original post has a warning.)

Roland mentoned it only twice... and? Yeah, he is an important character but he is not God or something. Roland is that type of person who doesn't talk about his enemies much anyway. And if

Spoiler:

they are dead

he loses his interest.

Right, that's why he's never thought about Rhea or Jonas or the people in Tull or Susan or...

5. For me they behaved and talked the same way or in a very similar way.

I suppose, but at the same time, the evil character having a sense of humor isn't unique with Flagg. And it wasn't King's original intention either. He just combined them with Flagg after Flagg was introduced. Before that Marten and Walter were flashback characters who had both died. (There was a mention of Marten being killed in the original Gunslinger that was removed in the Revised.) I don't know about Marten, but Walter was definitely a last minute addition as throughout the beginning of the series Walter is dead as the dodo.

[Letti]

1. I didn't say he did anything that was so important to the series. I said the way I look at this series or any other books I say everyone is important even those characters who say two words and he, Flagg did much more. (He talked much more than saying two words I guess we can agree about it.)

Well, thats not the way I look at it. I mean, if the old whore with the bad makeup job was removed from Wizard and Glass would anyone care? Obviously Flagg's not on the same level as her, but I don't buy the "If he's in the book he's important" bit.

2. What why? You wrote somewhere that was the only important scene where he appeared. Did't you?

Its the only scene that couldn't be removed as easily as the other ones, but that alone doesn't validate his importance in the series.

3. I don't say he had to appear but he did. Noone has to appear. People are appearing and disappearing in the books.

Yes. He didn't have to appear, but he did. And in the end that was a bad decision and a waste of a good character on King's part.

4. Many things happen in the books that aren't important to the rest of the series. When we read a book we get lots of infomration about people a stuff that aren't important at all for the book itself.

Right, but again, I don't see how this justifies Flagg being in the series. You're pretty much saying "Well, not everyone has to be important." But we're talking about a major King villain. Either do SOMETHING with his character or don't bring him in at all. 'Cause from where I'm standing all King did was say "Hey everyone, its Flagg! Oops, he's dead now. Sorry!"

Anyway I guess if Flagg

Spoiler:

hadn't died I don't think Roland could have reached the Tower so easily.

Of course it's just a guess and nomore.

5. Is that a good thing? Wouldn't it be more interesting if Roland was more challenged when he got to the Tower instead of having it easy? I think battling Flagg would be more satisfying than the old geriatric throwing Harry Potter sneetches at him...(BTW, you don't have to tag all your spoilers since the original post has a warning.)

Roland mentoned it only twice... and? Yeah, he is an important character but he is not God or something. Roland is that type of person who doesn't talk about his enemies much anyway. And if

Spoiler:

they are dead

he loses his interest.

6. Right, that's why he's never thought about Rhea or Jonas or the people in Tull or Susan or...

For me they behaved and talked the same way or in a very similar way.

7. I suppose, but at the same time, the evil character having a sense of humor isn't unique with Flagg. And it wasn't King's original intention either. He just combined them with Flagg after Flagg was introduced. Before that Marten and Walter were flashback characters who had both died. (There was a mention of Marten being killed in the original Gunslinger that was removed in the Revised.) I don't know about Marten, but Walter was definitely a last minute addition as throughout the beginning of the series Walter is dead as the dodo.

1. If we don't know about something of course we don't miss it. But for example if now King revised Wizard and Glass and he vanished that whore I would miss her a lot.
I think she was important (not as important as water or oxigen but still) because she was a good mirror about the life that was going on in Mejis.
And yeah, Flagg's part is much bigger than that whore's.
I can understand if you say you don't buy the "if he's in the book he's important" stuff but we will never agree on it. But that's not a problem at all.

2. You know I feel I can say anything and you will say Flagg wasn't needed and you can write me anything I will say he was because we look at the series from very different angles and we have very different feelings and our views are way too far from each other.
But we are here to discuss our feelings and opinions so let me see... (I wouldn't like to convince you about anything but it would be great if you wrote: you can be right, too)
What's this easily removing stuff? I don't really get it.
There are so many parts that could be easily removed. Tons. But if we removed everything that's not oh so very important we would get a 20-page-long book.

3. King is famous for killing his great characters without any hesitation. It's good. It's life-like. How could it have been a bad decision? We all die and most of us have a very stupid way of death. And sometimes death come very slowly and we can't meet it even when we would like to and sometimes it suddenly appears and gets everything...
Yeah, maybe Flagg would have deserved more and a nicer death but that's not how life goes.
Anyway other characters had a not perfect way of death eoither. What about the great Shemie? He had incredible power and a little wound killed him.

Anyway do you have probelms with the death of the character or the way he died?

4. I can't see this way because Walter, Marten and Flagg are the same... I don't even know when he used this or that name because he is only one to me.

5. Oh, there are many many things that could have happened and could have made the series more interesting... that's sure. And we all have ideas in our minds and we can say that this or that would have been better. Of course. But can we really say that? Because what would have been a great end for you could have been unacceptable for others...
For example here I am who says it was good as it was.
(It would have been so great if Roland could have said goodbye to Jake but he couldn't... I wish I could change it but I can't so I accept it as it is.) Etc..
And I don't always say it. There are some books that I felt I could throw into fire because of the end that was so incredibly poor and horrible. I write it down because I am not that type of person who can accept everything and who says the writer is the king BUT about the series I don't have any big compliments.

6. Susan was her love and he talked about Jonas and Rhea when he told that damn long story about his story in Mejis. Anyway he didn't talk about them a lot.

7. Sense of humour... that's not an easy thing.
First of all I haven't met many evil characters who had a sense of homour..
Secondly there are so many types of homour. He had a very speciel dark but still funny one that was sometimes very wise and sad. Or that's how I felt.

[CyberGhostface]

What's this easily removing stuff? I don't really get it.
There are so many parts that could be easily removed. Tons. But if we removed everything that's not oh so very important we would get a 20-page-long book.

My point is that Flagg did nothing of importance in the series. His death was a slap in the face to Flagg's fans. All he had was a series of cameo appearences that lead to fodder for the emo spider boy. The ONLY reason I can see for adding him into the story is because "Flagg is great. He's cool. He should be in it because he's cool." He showed up a couple of times, acted menacing and then got eaten by Spider Boy. That's it. Its a disservice to the character.

King is famous for killing his great characters without any hesitation. It's good. It's life-like. How could it have been a bad decision? We all die and most of us have a very stupid way of death. And sometimes death come very slowly and we can't meet it even when we would like to and sometimes it suddenly appears and gets everything...

So if Roland slipped while getting out of the shower and broke his skull, you'd be okay with that because its "life-like"? Life, when you get down to it, is mundane and anticlimatic most of the time. I think when most people read fantasy novels about Cyborg bears and sentient trains they're not wanting to see intentionally anticlimatic endings for the characters.

Yeah, maybe Flagg would have deserved more and a nicer death but that's not how life goes.
Anyway other characters had a not perfect way of death eoither. What about the great Shemie? He had incredible power and a little wound killed him.

I wasn't too crazy about Sheemie's fate either. But he still played a significant role in the end.

Anyway do you have probelms with the death of the character or the way he died?

Both. I have problems with 99.9% of the chapter.

5. Oh, there are many many things that could have happened and could have made the series more interesting... that's sure. And we all have ideas in our minds and we can say that this or that would have been better. Of course. But can we really say that? Because what would have been a great end for you could have been unacceptable for others...

For example here I am who says it was good as it was.
(It would have been so great if Roland could have said goodbye to Jake but he couldn't... I wish I could change it but I can't so I accept it as it is.) Etc..
And I don't always say it. There are some books that I felt I could throw into fire because of the end that was so incredibly poor and horrible. I write it down because I am not that type of person who can accept everything and who says the writer is the king BUT about the series I don't have any big compliments.

So its basically "Shut the fuck up and give me your money"? I understand that I'm not going to like everything. But what King did to Flagg was so godawful that its quite possibly the worst thing in the entire series. Would my ideas be liked by everyone? Probably not. But they wouldn't have been reviled by nearly everyone like it was with Flagg.

6. Susan was her love and he talked about Jonas and Rhea when he told that damn long story about his story in Mejis. Anyway he didn't talk about them a lot.

But they were on his mind a lot. There are numerous references to the people he met and knew in Mejis. Maybe its not like "Hey, did I ever tell you about the time Jonas..." but there were numerous scenes of Roland thinking about them.

7. Sense of humour... that's not an easy thing.
First of all I haven't met many evil characters who had a sense of homour..
Secondly there are so many types of homour. He had a very speciel dark but still funny one that was sometimes very wise and sad. Or that's how I felt.

Oh come on...90% of the devil characters in the media today are all wiseasses. The devil is probably a pretty funny guy. Evil and charisma go hand in hand. How else is it supposed to be seductive?

[Letti]

Where should I start?

So if Roland died that way (broke his skull) I think I would be able to accept it, yeah. I wouldn't be very happy with it but I could accept it.
It might be strange but I love reading fanasy books because they are so life-like... does it make any sense?
But if others read them to escape the real world I can understand if something so life-like and not deserved thing happens they are pissed off.

You made me incredibly excited.
What's that 0.01% you liked about that part???

I don't pay attention for media and I live in Hungary so when I say I don't meet funny evil characters I mean it.

(There are more things I would like to write about, I'll come back later.)

[CyberGhostface]

So if Roland died that way (broke his skull) I think I would be able to accept it, yeah. I wouldn't be very happy with it but I could accept it.

So if the first chapter of DT7 was "Roland finished his shower. He reached for his towel and slipped, his head hitting the cold floor. 'Dammit!' He said. Blood pooled from his head. Roland was dead.' And the rest of the book was the rest of the ka-tet going on their merry way with two mentions of Roland? Now obviously I'm being sarcastic here (King wouldn't do something as stupid as this...or would he? ) but the point is having anticlimatic stuff because "shit happens in real life" doesn't work for me.

It might be strange but I love reading fanasy books because they are so life-like... does it make any sense?

Yes it does. I just don't think Flagg's death is a good example. I like realism, but I don't want the realism to interfere with a good story. And yes, I know some people think that one of King's most earliest and popular villains getting dispatched to make room for a self-pitying spider was good writing, but I'm obviously not one of them.

You made me incredibly excited.
What's that 0.01% you liked about that part???

I liked the two sentences about Walter's childhood and I liked some of his monologue (how he said he loved Gabrielle, killing Cuthbert, etc). That's pretty much it.

I don't pay attention for media and I live in Hungary so when I say I don't meet funny evil characters I mean it.

So you've never read a book or seen a movie where the villain was charismatic?

[Letti]

I didn't say I have never met an evil character that whad a sense of humor or I didn't like but it's not usual at all.
Anyway most of the evil caharcters I have met are very poorly written. They are stupid selfish and evil and that's all. They have no past... no real reasons... no history.
That's why King rocks. His characters aren't black and white. They are very complex.

Once before I finished the series I had written somewhere that I wouldn't be able to be pissed of or angry if this would be the end of the book:

Roland entered the Burger King. Jake followed him.
Roland was very hungry he felt he could eat anything.
He went to the pretty girl and said: "A hamburger and coke, please."
*end*

Of course we have the rights to say that we don't accept this or that or we don't like this or that. If we are lucky we belong to the satisfied group.

[Wuducynn]

Anyway most of the evil caharcters I have met are very poorly written. They are stupid selfish and evil and that's all. They have no past... no real reasons... no history.
That's why King rocks. His characters aren't black and white. They are very complex.

Letti you are SO right about that! That is exactly how I've felt in most fiction.