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View Poll Results: Was Flagg needed in the series?

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Thread: Randall Flagg - discussion of the character and his many guises

  1. #51
    Roont Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberGhostface View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    Yes, of course people are not the same and they react differently, however I maintain that while it may be harder for some than others there is always a choice in how to react.
    There's always a choice in that people aren't *forced* to act. But again...you're oversimplifying the matter.
    That may be true. I tend to see moral issues in strict terms of black and white. I can't help it. It's just how I feel.

    Quote Originally Posted by CyberGhostface View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    I'm not sure I believe that a mental problem or even insanity is indicative of a moral deficiency at all.
    Have you ever studied or researched the subject??
    I've read quite a bit, but I'd say I'm far from being an expert. This is just my own personal gut feeling (although based on some limited degree of personal observation too).

    Quote Originally Posted by CyberGhostface View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    Sorry, but once again I feel that a choice is still made and whatever factors or circumstances brought about that reaction don't justify them in any way and therefore don't warrant my sympathies.
    Again, I'm not talking about justifying or excusing the actions of these people. I'm just saying that in most cases these people are shaped by events that occur in their lives. I don't have sympathy for their actions now, but I have sympathy for the person they used to be.
    I would have had sympathy before they acted out. That for me is completely negated when they do. And I realize you're not talking about justifications or excuses, but for me there is a direct correlation there.

    Quote Originally Posted by CyberGhostface View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    We really don't know what an animal's moral capabilities are do we? Surely they have some.
    But you're expecting them to have fully rational decisions. My cats don't act rationally when they knocked down the Christmas tree this year, and they're pampered. Why would you expect a pitbull thats been beaten and forced to fight with other dogs to act rationally when coming in contact with other people?
    No, I'm not really expecting them to make rational decisions. But, why must their rationale be understandable by our terms. Your cats were very likely just playing, or thought the tree looked better lying down. By this I mean just because we don't understand their reasons doesn't suggest that they don't have their own totally rational reasons for what they do. Sorry, but I still believe they are completely capable of moral choices and see no reason to believe otherwise. I think we may just have to agree to disagree on this one man.
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  2. #52
    Hannibal CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    That may be true. I tend to see moral issues in strict terms of black and white. I can't help it. It's just how I feel.
    Then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    I've read quite a bit, but I'd say I'm far from being an expert. This is just my own personal gut feeling (although based on some limited degree of personal observation too).
    I'm not an expert either, but I did a project on psychopaths for psychology, and I've seen a number of episodes of Most Evil on Discovery Times which has a psychologist analyze serial killers. A psychopath's brain is usually wired differently than normal people and their morals capabilities are usually different than you or I. A lot of them, for example, aren't able to empathize with other people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    No, I'm not really expecting them to make rational decisions. But, why must their rationale be understandable by our terms. Your cats were very likely just playing, or thought the tree looked better lying down. By this I mean just because we don't understand their reasons doesn't suggest that they don't have their own totally rational reasons for what they do. Sorry, but I still believe they are completely capable of moral choices and see no reason to believe otherwise. I think we may just have to agree to disagree on this one man.
    I agree that we'll have to agree to disagree on this matter as well.
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  3. #53
    Roont Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberGhostface View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    I've read quite a bit, but I'd say I'm far from being an expert. This is just my own personal gut feeling (although based on some limited degree of personal observation too).
    I'm not an expert either, but I did a project on psychopaths for psychology, and I've seen a number of episodes of Most Evil on Discovery Times which has a psychologist analyze serial killers. A psychopath's brain is usually wired differently than normal people and their morals capabilities are usually different than you or I. A lot of them, for example, aren't able to empathize with other people.
    Yeah, that's traditional thought on the matter. Personally, I think they're perfectly capable morally they just don't fuckin' care. I'd agree though that their brains are "wired differently" though in that neurotransmitter levels in their brains are likely very different than in a normal person's brain and I woulld concede that some of these could indicate a predisposion towards aggression or violence. I just don't feel that they are really morally deficient...more a situation where they "mentally" just say fuck it all.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

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    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



  4. #54
    Life is beautiful LadyHitchhiker has a spectacular aura about LadyHitchhiker has a spectacular aura about LadyHitchhiker's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    Why do you think that Rhea or the Crimson King were born evil? I don't think it at all. What made you think that? I am interested in it.
    Moreover - I might be insane - I don't think Mordred was born evil, either.
    I agree with you. I really don't know that I believe ANYONE is born evil. There are natural tendencies in certain people that genetically and through environment can be exploited to make someone that way.

  5. #55
    Hannibal CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyHitchhiker View Post
    I agree with you. I really don't know that I believe ANYONE is born evil. There are natural tendencies in certain people that genetically and through environment can be exploited to make someone that way.
    In fiction, anything is possible. In real life, no one is born evil (perhaps) but when you're talking about a fictional spider-demon (the Crimson King) bred to destroy the White...there's not much doubt to suggest otherwise.
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  6. #56
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberGhostface View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LadyHitchhiker View Post
    I agree with you. I really don't know that I believe ANYONE is born evil. There are natural tendencies in certain people that genetically and through environment can be exploited to make someone that way.
    In fiction, anything is possible. In real life, no one is born evil (perhaps) but when you're talking about a fictional spider-demon (the Crimson King) bred to destroy the White...there's not much doubt to suggest otherwise.
    (maybe we should start a Mordred thread, what do you think? - I think I will open it)

    How could Mordred love Roland if he was born evil?

    Roland would have understood.

  7. #57
    Hannibal CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface's Avatar

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    I was talking about the Crimson King when I said he was born evil, not Mordred. But how could Mordred love his father if he was evil? Its possible to love and be evil...Hitler loved his niece and his dog for example.

    But in the end Mordred tried to kill his father, so while he may had conflicting emotions regarding his father, in the end he acted on his dark side and ultimately paid the price.
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  8. #58
    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    How could Mordred love Roland if he was born evil?
    Because Mordred wasn't born entirely evil. Mordred had two daddies. He was quite evil, but there was still a side of him, a side he hated apparently, that still loved and longed to be loved. We saw which side won out in the end, so it suggests that the evil was pretty strong. I don't believe real humans can be "born evil" per se, though they can be born pre-disposed to some sociopathic mental illnesses, but Mordred was a supernatural creature with one supernaturally evil parent.

  9. #59
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    Default Was Flagg needed? **Spoilers**

    Before you automatically click "Yes", consider the following...

    Flagg (as Flagg, not any of his other identities) did very little in the series. They were ultimately a series of cameo appearences leading up to...well, nothing. Just fodder for Spider-Boy. I have to wonder if Flagg was necessary at all in the series. If someone were to pull a Mephisto (wink wink Spider-Man fans) and erase Flagg, would the series be any different?

    Book 1: Walter and Marten are now two seperate figures. Walter dies at the end of the book, but appears in flashbacks.
    Book 2: Minimal references to Flagg would be removed.
    Book 3: Tick Tock dies in Lud. This is an improvement, considering how Ticky's later appearence was an embarrassment.
    Book 4: The only significant change would be here. Given that Flagg is gone, someone else would need to create the Emerald Palace. The flashbacks could also explain what happened to Marten, given that he's now seperate.
    Book 5: Flashbacks before Book 1 occur.
    Book 6: Flashbacks before Book 1 occur.
    Book 7: Flagg's appearence is omitted. It had little-to-no impact on the story, and was only referenced twice in passing.

    If you vote "Yes", then please explain why Flagg was important.
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  10. #60
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Thank you for the interesting question, CGF.
    I clicked on yes and whenever I get home I will write down why.

    Roland would have understood.

  11. #61
    Donkey Thief Mike Beck is on a distinguished road Mike Beck's Avatar

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    I think this is an amazing question.

    i clicked no. I believe that the series would have been much stronger without his character in it, for the reasons you posted already.

    i also don't think he was needed for the emerald palace scene. instead of Flagg being inside, why not the Crimson King himself? I know the CK was trapped in the tower, but part of him could have manifested in the palace. some part of him that he could project. It would have set up a nice introduction for the CK, as well, considering all that "Beware the Crimson King" stuff.

    Flagg in Lud was unnecessary.
    Flagg in Topeka didn't really do much except tease the reader.
    Flagg in Fedic? I could have done without.

  12. #62
    Constant Reader Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts's Avatar

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    Good question! I think the Stand was Flagg's finest hour, and the Flagg of DT paled in comparison.

    I don't know how to answer yet, do you mean all incarnations of Flagg - because without Walter, Marten etc, the story would have been entirely different.

  13. #63
    Hannibal CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    I don't know how to answer yet, do you mean all incarnations of Flagg - because without Walter, Marten etc, the story would have been entirely different.
    I'm only referring to Flagg as Flagg. His identity crisis with Walter and Marten occurred after they were established as seperate characters in the first two to three books, so it wouldn't be hard to keep them in.
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  14. #64
    West Coast sarah is on a distinguished road sarah's Avatar

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    Has it been discussed elsewhere why king merged all the three men into one?



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  15. #65
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    Sort of..ish...

  16. #66
    Hannibal CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface has much to be proud of CyberGhostface's Avatar

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    Whoever edited my original post could they just change it to **SPOILERS**?
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  17. #67
    West Coast sarah is on a distinguished road sarah's Avatar

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    ok. Done.



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  18. #68
    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    That is an EXCELLENT question CGF. Since we are just taking Flagg in his Flagg incarnation, I would have to agree with you that he was superfluous. It's a shame since he is among the greatest characters King ever created, but ultimately, he served no purpose.

  19. #69
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    Thanks for the compliments everyone.

    I really would like to know why King resurrected Walter for the last three books and say that he's Flagg...since he was writing them in one long period, he should have known the character's fate ahead of time.
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  20. #70
    Gunslinger Apprentice R.F. is on a distinguished road R.F.'s Avatar

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    In my opinion, there really is no difference between Martin, Walter, and Flagg. Now, I haven't read the comics (will as soon as I can find them), but in everything else, the Walkin Dude goes by many different names. The only way that I would support Flagg being taken away from Martin/Walter is if all three were made into different characters.

    Also, any who think he is just fodder for spider boy, are forgetting the fact that there are a seemingly infinite amount of worlds, and R.F. is in all of them by one name or another.
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  21. #71
    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.F. View Post
    In my opinion, there really is no difference between Martin, Walter, and Flagg. ... The only way that I would support Flagg being taken away from Martin/Walter is if all three were made into different characters.
    That is true, but only in the revised Gunslinger. In the original, there Walter and Marten are not the same person. When it was revised, King combined the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by R.F. View Post
    Also, any who think he is just fodder for spider boy, are forgetting the fact that there are a seemingly infinite amount of worlds, and R.F. is in all of them by one name or another.
    That is up for debate. There are those, myself among them, who think that Flagg is a singular entity. In other words, there are not copies or twinners of Flagg in different worlds. Rather, he is able to travel between the worlds.

  22. #72
    Gunslinger Apprentice R.F. is on a distinguished road R.F.'s Avatar

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    Right, and that is possible. So I guess it really depends on if The Man in Black is Walter is Martin is Randall is Richard is Walkin Dude... To me, he seems too important to Roland's quest to ever be counted out completely. Just as there are more than one world with Jake, I figured that Flagg has not quite seen the end of all of his days.
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  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.F. View Post
    The only way that I would support Flagg being taken away from Martin/Walter is if all three were made into different characters.
    Which is exactly what I said when analyzing what the series would be like in Flagg's absence.

    Quote Originally Posted by R.F. View Post
    Also, any who think he is just fodder for spider boy, are forgetting the fact that there are a seemingly infinite amount of worlds, and R.F. is in all of them by one name or another.
    Doesn't matter. Even if your theory is true, the series is over. We're not going to *see* any of these infinite Flaggs causing chaos, so its not much of a consolation prize to those disappointed with his mediocre fate and wasted potential.
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  24. #74
    Along the Path of the Beam timtempest6 is on a distinguished road timtempest6's Avatar

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    I think the tet just caught Walter in the time line of The Stand where he called himself flagg. I also think Mordred killing Walter/Flagg was to make Mordred's character more i don't know..bad ass.? like wow he did just like that what Roland could never do. you see?
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  25. #75
    Citizen of Gilead ATG is on a distinguished road

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    I say yes because he was a main component of the ties to the other books.

    The Stand is generally considered his best book ( ATG ducks ), and RF was a major character, therefor he had to be there.
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