Randall Flagg - discussion of the character and his many guises

[19eye-rosecrow-gun]

Flagg was not useless in the series. What I am explaining below is from the revised novels. Spoilers.

1.) He is the first character introduced in the series. He is the reason the Gunslinger is charging across the desert.

2.) He leads Roland and Jake along their journey.

3.) Flagg reminds Roland of his mission, and sends him off to draw his three.

4.) Flagg entices Roland's mother to betray Gilied. He also plays a big part in the comics, constantly hounding after Roland.

5.) Flagg is the one who is behind the demonic creation Mordred Deschain.

6.) Flagg had to be replaced because he was an old character and his evil was not as powerful or sinister, or tragic as that of Mordred. So he was eaten, and good riddance. Tell God thank ya.

[haunted.lunchbox]

It's been a while since I've read the series, but I will give you my take.

I think he was needed because he shows just how powerful the people in these books are. You read the Stand and you see this incredibly powerful antagonist, and than you read the DT and find that he is actually one of the 'smaller' potatoes. That's what he did for me anyways. I guess he wasn't terribly small, but there were just so many menaces.

[CyberGhostface]

Flagg was not useless in the series. What I am explaining below is from the revised novels. Spoilers.

1.) He is the first character introduced in the series. He is the reason the Gunslinger is charging across the desert.

2.) He leads Roland and Jake along their journey.

3.) Flagg reminds Roland of his mission, and sends him off to draw his three.

4.) Flagg entices Roland's mother to betray Gilied. He also plays a big part in the comics, constantly hounding after Roland.

This was all Marten/Walter before Flagg was introduced into the series. Again, I am *not* referring to the characters that were absorbed into Flagg at a later point. I am referring to the character of Flagg that showed up at the end of III, popped up in for one scene in IV, took a sabbatical from V to VI and then was eaten. Had Flagg not been introduced, Walter and Marten woud have still fulfilled their respective roles in the first novel.

6.) Flagg had to be replaced because he was an old character and his evil was not as powerful or sinister, or tragic as that of Mordred. So he was eaten, and good riddance. Tell God thank ya.

Mordred was a crap character, one of the worst in King's canon. He was a poor replacement for Flagg.

[Seneschal]

This was all Marten/Walter before Flagg was introduced into the series. Again, I am *not* referring to the characters that were absorbed into Flagg at a later point. I am referring to the character of Flagg that showed up at the end of III, popped up in for one scene in IV, took a sabbatical from V to VI and then was eaten. Had Flagg not been introduced, Walter and Marten woud have still fulfilled their respective roles in the first novel.

but they *were* absorbed, it's now a fact of the DT universe as if they were never written any other way.

i completely understand your point when taking the character as in the original writing, and your points are very well made about the originally written Flagg character as he pertains to DT.

however...

in that light, do you not agree that a big part of the reason King absorbed him into the other two characters was to punctuate his importance? Of course he knew he could just write the character out. Stephen King has never been known to back down to the "typical" rules of writing (ie, don't write yourself into a story). He is apt to just change the rules in his books on a whim, we see it all the time in all his stories, not just DT. it's his style. so in his revision, he could have merely erased Flagg completely with relative ease and been done with it. instead he thought that giving him a much deeper and older evil embodiment was the better way to go. not only does it complete our story, but it adds dimensions to the character in the other stories (like Stand and Eyes of the Dragon). and since this is what the author did, should it not be taken to mean that Flagg, ultimately, IS important no matter how you look at it and that we must view him as the complete character he has been revealed to be?

we can't rewrite the story, only King can. and he did rewrite it. and he did it with purpose (why revise at all if it wasn't important?). i suppose ultimately what i am saying is that you can no longer "take flagg as flagg". The author has explicitly said Flagg is Walter is Marten. As the reader, this is what we must believe to make the story complete.

I suppose this is where a conversation about purism in the fiction itself would start.

[pathoftheturtle]

We can't rewrite the books; we can only stop buying them. Maybe invest in an author we decide we like more. In any case, it's silly to suggest that there's no point in critical thinking by readers.

re: TMIB -- It seems to be a law of the internet that most contributors to any thread will be replying only to that thread's title, and only if the title is not too long or complicated.

[Seneschal]

We can't rewrite the books; we can only stop buying them. Maybe invest in an author we decide we like more. In any case, it's silly to suggest that there's no point in critical thinking by readers.

if that was in response to my post, i don't recall suggesting people should not be critically thinking. i responded to the question at hand with my own thoughts.

[pathoftheturtle]

We can't rewrite the books; we can only stop buying them. Maybe invest in an author we decide we like more. In any case, it's silly to suggest that there's no point in critical thinking by readers.

if that was in response to my post, i don't recall suggesting people should not be critically thinking. i responded to the question at hand with my own thoughts.

That's fine; no offense meant. I'm just saying, in reply to --

...since this is what the author did, should it not be taken to mean that Flagg, ultimately, IS important no matter how you look at it and that we must view him as the complete character he has been revealed to be?
...

We can try to do that, but if someone is still not satisfied, he may just conclude that the writing is not all that good. That's a perfectly reasonable position.

[HellBeast]

If we go along with the idea that the Dark Tower is the underlying aspect to the majority of King's work, and taking into account that Flagg was such a big King character from Eyes of the Dragon and moreso The Stand, then yeah he was necessary. King fans, not just DT fans, can see Flagg's involvement in the story and his demise as being necessary to give an end to the character. In terms of the plot, Flagg being involved could be a scheme by Walter/Marten/Flagg to screw with Roland's head even more, make him think that there were more people against him than there actually was.

[19eye-rosecrow-gun]

Mordred was a crap character, one of the worst in King's canon. He was a poor replacement for Flagg.

I can't agree with you on this. Mordred was a character of much more depth and complexity than Flagg, which is why King had no problem turning Flagg into a pathetic fool in a pool of gore.

Mordred was a conflicting tragic character. His demise was that of his own choice. He could have killed any of the gunslingers earlier on, even though people were taking watch. I believe Mordred could have tried to kill them at any time, but something in him, maybe the fact that Roland was his father, stopped him from going through with it. Inside he knew he couldn't do it. So in the end, I believe Mordred wasn't fallowing Roland to stalk and kill him, but to make sure Roland got to the tower safely (all things serve the Tower). In the end, Mordred rushed Roland, part due to his state of bad health, but also because he knew Roland was close enough he didn't need anyone to watch him anymore; Mordred had served his purpose.

Mordred was quite sickly and terrifying. I think fans of Flagg don't appriciate Mordred as a character because he turned Walter O'Dim into Walter O'Dark.
Even in the book Flagg admits he was fooled by Mordred because he only took the creature for his looks rather than what he was, or what he represented. It seems just as quickly as some characters make mistakes, readers will pass it by and not learn from it...

[CyberGhostface]

Mordred was a character of much more depth and complexity than Flagg, which is why King had no problem turning Flagg into a pathetic fool in a pool of gore.

Flagg's death was pretty embarrassing, but nothing says "pathetic fool" like Mordred suffering massive bouts of diarrhea after he ate the rotten horse. After all, Flagg started out as a simple farmboy and lasted for millennia, whereas Mordred started out as the son of the Crimson King and he lasted, what, a couple of months?

Mordred was written with all the subtlety of a hammer to the kneecaps to the point that King broke the fourth wall to tell the reader to feel bad for him. Thanks King, but I don't need you telling me what to feel when I read your books.

[fernandito]

I'm sorry but, in what way , shape , or form is Mordred a more in depth character than Flagg ? Flagg is one of King's most iconic villains, with an extensive history that spans and has been touched upon in several pieces of work (Eyes of the Dragon, The Stand, The Sorcerer one-shot, the comics, The Dark Tower itself etc.).

When I think of Flagg, I think of the copious amounts of trouble he's caused, the misery he's put several key figures through, the worlds hes traversed, his elusiveness and his enigmatic persona. When I think of Mordred I think of a character that was introduced at the eleventh hour and did little more than garner diarrhea from eating a horse. It's unfitting and a shame that Flagg should meet his end at the hands of such a cookie-cutter character.

[Brainslinger]

I'm sorry but, in what way , shape , or form is Mordred a more in depth character than Flagg ? Flagg is one of King's most iconic villains, with an extensive history that spans and has been touched upon in several pieces of work (Eyes of the Dragon, The Stand, The Sorcerer one-shot, the comics, The Dark Tower itself etc.).

I agree that Flagg is one of King's most iconic villains, possibly even the most iconic villain. The character of It being a possible exception.

However, I don't think he is particularly deep. He puts on faces for particular occasions. Shifts his forms for various agenda, but I think he is ultimately shallow and empty inside, hence his ability to put on personalities with his forms because inside there's not a whole lot.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure he is capable of more complex human feelings. He showed affection of a kind for certain characters in The Stand, and I loved the flash-back scene with Callahan in Wolves of the Calla where he actually seems hurt by Callahan's accusations (and it's a shame they didn't develop that further) but I think he is ultimately a very shallow selfish character with delusions of grandeur.

That's not to say he isn't a great villain though. In fact he is a great villain partly for this reason.

On the other hand I think Mordred is certainly a more complex character, although part of that might be simply due to the fact we see more of his thought life. That's not to say he isn't pathetic as well, but 'pathetic' and 'complex' are not contradictory. And being pathetic didn't mean he wasn't dangerous. He came the closest to killing Roland after all.

I also felt rather sorry for him without King telling me to.

I'm not using this as an argument to state Mordred should have replaced Walter (at least not when he did). I'm of the belief Walter should have survived to the end and taken the Dandelo role. (A great sequence I thought, but it was so very much a Flaggesque type trap. Why bring in a new villain out of nowhere when we have a suitable one already? Okay Flagg isn't an emotion eater so I'm not sure what his reasoning for bringing Patrick would be, but I'm sure King could have come up with something. Maybe he was aware of Paddy's power and thought he'd use him in some way...)

Maybe Mordred could have killed him after that while he was in a weakened state (we know Roland's guns alone wouldn't be enough, he seems to be able to counteract them, but I'm sure Roland and Suze could hurt him another way). Maybe Mordred's subsequent sickness could have been a last trick induced by Walt....

But anyway, much as I'm disappointed by Walter/Flagg's early demise, I think Mordred was the more complex character, but I hated how easily and quickly he dealt with Walter.

As for the thread question, I'll admit I'm not sure the persona of Flagg (untied from the others) really needed to be in the books as far as his role in the plot was concerned. His earlier attempt to trap the ka-tet with the Tick-tock man didn't amount to much in the end and if anything confused the issue. (If he was partly responsible for instigating Mordred's conception, why-oh-why risk that? I know he ultimately has his own agenda and will betray the King but you'd have thought he'd try something a bit more low key that hides his involvement.)

I'm glad he was there though.

[Jean]

I agree that Flagg is one of King's most iconic villains, possibly even the most iconic villain. The character of It being a possible exception.

However, I don't think he is particularly deep. He puts on faces for particular occasions. Shifts his forms for various agenda, but I think he is ultimately shallow and empty inside, hence his ability to put on personalities with his forms because inside there's not a whole lot.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure he is capable of more complex human feelings. He showed affection of a kind for certain characters in The Stand, and I loved the flash-back scene with Callahan in Wolves of the Calla where he actually seems hurt by Callahan's accusations (and it's a shame they didn't develop that further) but I think he is ultimately a very shallow selfish character with delusions of grandeur.

That's not to say he isn't a great villain though. In fact he is a great villain partly for this reason.

I couldn't agree more with all of the above.

[HellBeast]

I think that King had Mordred finish Flagg to show the might and power of his character, the diarrhoea elements to show that he was however in the body of a child. If you look at how he kills Flagg, with his mental psychic abilities, and contrast that with the fact he gets diarrhoea, I think this shows that Mordred has even greater potential to be such an indomitable force. However, a big contributing factor to his demise at the hands of Roland is his sickness and weakness. I've gotta say, if Mordred was in better health, and maybe more developed, Roland wouldn't have stood a chance.

In some ways to be honest, I feel as though Mordred, after being given the 'push' (to use pro wrestling terminology) of being the end to the master-villain Flagg/Walter/Marten, was deserving of at least another novel detailing his growth as a character and his deeds, but maybe King thought Roland had to deal with Mordred before he got to the Tower, else Roland would appear a coward having not confronted him.

In terms who's a more complex character, we know very little of the background of Flagg, other than from the Sorceror comic and little comments here and there through out Eyes of the Dragon and the DT series, whereas we witness everything of Mordred's life, from conception. through birth and life and ultimately death, so we're given far more of Mordred's character. We see what he does, but more importantly we are given WHY he does these things. However, with Flagg, all we ever get is at most speculation as to his motives. Also, considering the vast landscape of his deeds and doings, and the absence of his motivation, I have to say that Flagg is a more complex character because we as readers have to speculate as to why he does the things he does. Not to say Mordred isn't complex, but I just think there's far more to Flagg, which you can't argue with when you consider how long he's lived and what he's done compared to Mordred.




EDIT: though another theory I've often had about Flagg is that he does the things he does simply because he is pure, base, inherent evil, regardless of character. So what I'm saying here is that this post was irrelevant lol.

[haunted.lunchbox]

I think that King had Mordred finish Flagg to show the might and power of his character, the diarrhoea elements to show that he was however in the body of a child. If you look at how he kills Flagg, with his mental psychic abilities, and contrast that with the fact he gets diarrhoea, I think this shows that Mordred has even greater potential to be such an indomitable force. However, a big contributing factor to his demise at the hands of Roland is his sickness and weakness. I've gotta say, if Mordred was in better health, and maybe more developed, Roland wouldn't have stood a chance.

In some ways to be honest, I feel as though Mordred, after being given the 'push' (to use pro wrestling terminology) of being the end to the master-villain Flagg/Walter/Marten, was deserving of at least another novel detailing his growth as a character and his deeds, but maybe King thought Roland had to deal with Mordred before he got to the Tower, else Roland would appear a coward having not confronted him.

In terms who's a more complex character, we know very little of the background of Flagg, other than from the Sorceror comic and little comments here and there through out Eyes of the Dragon and the DT series, whereas we witness everything of Mordred's life, from conception. through birth and life and ultimately death, so we're given far more of Mordred's character. We see what he does, but more importantly we are given WHY he does these things. However, with Flagg, all we ever get is at most speculation as to his motives. Also, considering the vast landscape of his deeds and doings, and the absence of his motivation, I have to say that Flagg is a more complex character because we as readers have to speculate as to why he does the things he does. Not to say Mordred isn't complex, but I just think there's far more to Flagg, which you can't argue with when you consider how long he's lived and what he's done compared to Mordred.

I agree Flagg's death was a way to show Mordred's power. What better way to show it than him taking out such an iconic character.

[pathoftheturtle]

I've never agreed with that theory, but I've also never heard it applauded like you guys are doing. If SK was thinking that, then I believe he should have found a less shallow and manipulative way to plot his novels. That one is DEFINITELY unsubtle.

On the other hand, I kind of like the idea of Flagg getting poetic justice in his plans to create Mordred and use him. Unfortunately, that didn't come across so well, either.

EDIT: though another theory I've often had about Flagg is that he does the things he does simply because he is pure, base, inherent evil, regardless of character. So what I'm saying here is that this post was irrelevant lol.

What? No, I thnk there is some truth to this--

Also, considering the vast landscape of his deeds and doings, and the absence of his motivation, I have to say that Flagg is a more complex character because we as readers have to speculate as to why he does the things he does. ...

Sometimes less is more.
But, yes, he never was the most convincing, well-crafted character, especially as portrayed in the DT series. Mostly, he set up these convoluted plots which ultimately only benefited his adversaries.

Spoiler:

Heh-heh-heh... I'll show you, gunslinger! Here's the key you'll need to open a door back to the world you couldn't accomplish anything without being able to reach! The door can be found over there... I'll record instructions for you! Also, here's a loyal priest I've saved from death! Take that!

Still, I don't think Mordred was ever really well-written, either. I can't agree with this, though:

...a character that was introduced at the eleventh hour...

Let's remember that first foreshadowing way back in the original DT1. It's not that he was not vital to the series... just maybe not ultimately handled too well.

[HellBeast]

Puck: I merely meant to pose another argument, I guess you can argue both of the ways I suggest. I definitely agree with what you say about Less being more.

I never like to put an argument forward without considering alternatives, so my posts here will probably look very chaotic lol

EDIT: Can I ask, Puck, what was the 'first foreshadowing' of Mordred in the original DT1 you mention?

[pathoftheturtle]

I never like to put an argument forward without considering alternatives, so my posts here will probably look very chaotic lol

lol, well, then, here's a new avatar for you: http://muppet.wikia.com/wiki/Wembley_Fraggle.

EDIT: Can I ask, Puck, what was the 'first foreshadowing' of Mordred in the original DT1 you mention?

The Oracle. You know, the price of prophecy. The boy Jake. It's the main structure in the series.

[haunted.lunchbox]

[EDIT: Can I ask, Puck, what was the 'first foreshadowing' of Mordred in the original DT1 you mention?

The Oracle. You know, the price of prophecy. The boy Jake. It's the main structure in the series.[/QUOTE]

Please elaborate? Do you mean Jake is the main structure of the series, or Mordred. I often need things spelled out due to my aversion to simple logic.

[HellBeast]

I've never read the original, only the revised edition, I thought you meant an explicit reference to Mordred. Heck, there could be an explicit reference in the revised edition but I can't think of it lol shouldn't be on this site if that's the case...

I like the avatar idea haha think I might have to use it lol

[pathoftheturtle]

Spoiler:

Roland has sex with the Oracle, who tells him that he'll have to let Jake die. Susannah has sex with the same creature later to bring Jake back to Mid-World. This is Mordred's parentage. All very symbolic.

[19eye-rosecrow-gun]

Some of you are understanding Flagg and some of you aren't. Flagg helped bring down the Gunslingers, he created hell on earth in The Stand, and he was very scary and imposing in Eyes of the Dragon.

Mordred was the son of quite possibly the most notorious killer to ever exist (Roland Deschain) and the Crimson King.

Flagg doesn't have as much development as Mordred does, this is why I say that Mordred was a more complex character. I am not talking about all the destruction Mordred caused, but what he is. Even Flagg made the same mistake you guys are making; he took Mordred for what he looked like, not what he WAS!

My point is, although Mordred wasn't around as long as Flagg, nor did he cause as much destruction, he was more evil, and yet somehow able to be a tragic and gain sympathy from many readers.

Flagg is not as complex as Mordred, and Mordred to me was very diobolical in how he killed Flagg, which he no doubt deserved. Honestly, do you think Flagg was going to go on forever? He died in the end because he was too full of himself and not paying attention. He needed to die eventually.

[haunted.lunchbox]

Spoiler:

Roland has sex with the Oracle, who tells him that he'll have to let Jake die. Susannah has sex with the same creature later to bring Jake back to Mid-World. This is Mordred's parentage. All very symbolic.

I knew about all the sex... for research purposes I always reread these scenes several time, only for research of course... I didn't see the foreshadow.

Spoiler:

Do you think said oracle was completely truthful, or do you think he manipulated Roland? Obviously it was after the good stuff.

[haunted.lunchbox]

... and he was very scary and imposing in Eyes of the Dragon.

Possibly my favorite quote on this site.

[HellBeast]

Thanks for clearing that up Puck

19eye-rosecrow-gun I can see where you're coming from there, and I'm going to elaborate on a point I made in a previous post. When I said that because we know so little of Flagg's motivation, this adds to his character and his evil, I'd like to make the suggestion that because we know so little of Mordred's potential that adds to his own character and evil. If Mordred had attacked Roland when more physically healthy, there's no knowing what he could achieve.

I've gotta say I'm really torn on this Flagg vs Mordred thing now, I like alot of what people are saying on both sides. Both are fantastic villains, and I feel pretty cheated by SK that we don't get to see more of Mordred in all honesty.


An extra point: I think what's getting confused here is Being vs Character. Mordred is a more complex being/entity than Flagg, but in terms of the techniques SK has crafted them, Flagg is more complex, purely from a technical aspect.