(Spoilers throughout)
Spoiler:
Why does Walter hate Roland? SPOILERS
(Spoilers throughout)
Spoiler:
A hound will die for you, but never lie to you. And he'll look you straight in the face.
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I'm guessing because at the point in the saga that the The Gunslinger Born deals with he doesn't view Roland as a real threat to his own plans, he seems to have convinced himself that Roland will be fairly easy to have taken out or to take out himself.
"It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.
"When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah
Precisely. By the time of DT-7 Walter has seen Roland persevere for long enough that what began as annoyance has blossomed into full-blown hatred. Of course by this time Walter has his own designs on the Tower, but I think he feels if he cannot get to it than killing Roland and keeping him from it makes it acceptable.Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King
That is a great question, CyberGhostface. Thanks for posting it.
Management stuff:
I added the "radioactive" icon and the word "SPOILERS" into the title, so now people can speak freely without using the spoiler markers in this thread.
By the way, to the extent that this discussion leans toward the comic, we'll leave it in this forum. If it ends up being more of a book discussion, we can move it over to another forum.
Now back to you...
"...that Siren which called and sang and promised so much and gave, after all, so little." ~ Ray Bradbury
Yeah, nifty Patrick. Now whats your opinion on the subject?
"It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.
"When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah
I suppose my question is if the comics will ever directly address the two's antagonism or just leave it up for the readers to decide.
A hound will die for you, but never lie to you. And he'll look you straight in the face.
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I've almost gotten to the point where I am convinced Walter was trying to help Roland.
"cry the fuck off man...you never do and you never will"
The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket
Hmmm, now THERES an opinion I've not heard before. Interesting. Maybe part of Walter wanted to help him along with hating him?
"It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.
"When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah
Perhaps once Walter came to the conclusion that he wanted the Tower for himself he found it more pragmatic to help Roland than to hinder him. Of course he'd ultimately have to deal with him, but I suspect he had designs on using Mordred to accomplish that.Hmmm, now THERES an opinion I've not heard before. Interesting. Maybe part of Walter wanted to help him along with hating him?
If Walter was trying to help Roland, it was probably for his own personal gain.
A hound will die for you, but never lie to you. And he'll look you straight in the face.
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I think that's pretty much the only reason Walter does anything.
Yep, I think you're right on about that.
Perhaps once Walter came to the conclusion that he wanted the Tower for himself he found it more pragmatic to help Roland than to hinder him. Of course he'd ultimately have to deal with him, but I suspect he had designs on using Mordred to accomplish that.
"It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.
"When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah
I haven't read the graphic novels but from my views on the books alone.
Walter hates Roland because he knows Roland's fate.
In The Gunslinger Walter has deep knowledge on what awaits Roland and what Roland will find at the top of the tower. He even tells him 'if you choose me of Jake your fate it sealed' or something along those lines. Walter knows that his fate is also sealed (his fate with Mordred, can't fight ka) but his hate or Roland is coupled with his pleasure for knowing Roland will hurt over and over again for all eternity. Of course, he gets to see the build up but isn't around for the conclusion.
If I can make a bit of a LotR comparison, I see Walter as something of a Saruman to Los' Sauron. Walter is a genius at using others to achieve his needs, but like Saruman, he seizes upon opportunities by being able to play both sides of the fence. I agree wholeheartedly with Matt's thought that Walter is, on some level, helping Roland. There are a few times, Oz comes to mind, when it seemed Walter clearly had the upper hand and could have put Roland in a bad way, but he didn't. He needed Roland. If he wanted the Tower for himself, he'd need Roland to deal with Los before he had Mordred deal with Roland. My question is, did he really think he'd be able to stop Mordred at that point?
Nothing indicated in the later books that Walter knew what awaited Roland at the Tower (which is why I don't get the whole "you resume your quest" bit in the Revised), but there was certainly nothing to indicate that Walter knew about his fate at the hands of Mordred.
A hound will die for you, but never lie to you. And he'll look you straight in the face.
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nothing clearly stated perhaps, but perhaps implied by the ending. the ending begs the question of whether or not this trip to the tower was the first for Roland or just another loop. if it was not the first, than walter has made the loop as well and perhaps has the means to remember at least some of it. that said, he sure doesn't act like he remembers his doom.
He may not have kicked over in the other loop(s), that could be another thing that is different about it.
or perhaps, he knows and that's why he is trying so hard to stop Roland (as someone said, that would be his best interest)
But I gotta tell you guys, the more I read that last bit at the end of the revised version, the more I am convinced that Walter was really trying to tell Roland to STOP---and not solely because of the tower.
The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket
Ok, now I'm gonna have to read it again after I finish my re-read of S.o.S.
Well, Walter has to be there because Roland resets his loop at the time when he's pursuing him across the desert. I think thats always going to remain the same. Its Roland's choices thereafter that change.
Being that Walter is semi-immortal, having lived in multiple worlds for over hundreds of years, I think he might be slightly aware of being in a 'loop'. But when we saw his thoughts in DT7, nothing indicated that he knew at all or that Mordred was going to kill him. I'm just going to chalk up the whole "resuming your quest" as sloppy writing on King's part, being as 90% of the changes in the Revised clash somewhere later in the series.
A hound will die for you, but never lie to you. And he'll look you straight in the face.
My Collection
Hmmm...he could know Roland was looping without specific knowledge of the meeting with Mordred imo.
I'm not real high on the revised but it didn't seem to conflict too much with me. I think the reason folks tumbled to the "loop" was because the guy was so animated about it in the first place.
The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket
I had begun to think that myself up until he talked about how much he hated him in DT7 but I didn't think he was trying to help Roland for Roland's sake. His ideal scenario would have been to reach the Tower when Roland did. He would then hang back until the battle between the CK and Roland was over, hoping for the favorable circumstance of having only one, hopefully severeley weakened foe, to deal with.
In the Gunslinger he seemed to be frustrated with Roland for never quitting; he is stuck on the same wheel as Roland. He knows that Roland is on the cusp of figuring out what will stop the cycle but Walter knows the near dullard that Roland is partially because Walter is conscious of the fact that he is stuck in the wheel. He knows that there's just a few figurative steps that Roland is so close to piecing together from the bleakness of his imagination and it infuriates Flagg's enormously creative mind that he can't quite grasp something that he himself could so easily snatch out of the air. Perhaps he has to have Roland succeed in getting to the top to find his own top room.
Makes perfect sense. Also makes you wonder what would have happened if Walter had reached the tower.
Or even this, maybe its something different for everyone. So it wouldn't even be the same thing at all.
The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket
He is Roland's "Mirror Image".
Only when Marten/ Walter/ Flagg looks in the mirror they see what they were born to destroy - and have always failed - it would quite natually develop into hatred. And they have for all eternity chased and tried to duplicate themselves - look at Flagg's obsession with Nadine in the Stand and "The Man In Black"'s attempt with Sylvia Pittson. He was constantly trying to "snag" a Mordred.
He hates Roland because while Roland exists - so must He. And he hates looking in the mirror.
(And Matt - grandbabies are awesome!)
I definitely feel it would be different for everyone, and then what becomes of them is a matter of how much their psyche can take what the Tower shows them. Given what Roland saw in his Tower, what do you think would become of Walter in there?Makes perfect sense. Also makes you wonder what would have happened if Walter had reached the tower.
Or even this, maybe its something different for everyone. So it wouldn't even be the same thing at all.
"All is silent in the halls of the dead. All is forgotten in the stone halls of the dead. Behold the stairways which stand in darkness; behold the rooms of ruin. These are the halls of the dead where the spiders spin and the great circuits tall quiet, one by one."
that's, approximately, how I imagine the inside of the Tower as seen by Walter.
Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)
bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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