It's been ahwhile since I've seen the films, but wasn't another addition adding many more Arwen scenes? Like when she rides the dying Frodo over the river while being chased by Ringwraiths? It was a male elf in the book. Glorifindel or something like that.
I just remember watching the films and thinking she had a much smaller role in the novels.
I am Daenerys Stormborn and I will take what is mine. With fire and blood.
Erin, you are correct. It is Glorfindel who carries Frodo across the river and into Rivendell. It is not uncommon for screenwriters to merge two characters, or give the actions of one to another to make it so there are less characters in the film [look at "To Kill a Mockingbird" for instance where at least 3 of the books female characters are compressed into one].Originally Posted by Erin
As for Arwen's role in the book, aside from the lengthy appendix on her relationship with Aragorn, Arwen makes one appearance only, at the dinner the night before the council of Elrond, and she doesn't speak, she is only referenced as being there and being Elrond's daughter.
It is the subject of Arwen over which I take the most exception to PJ's film version. I feel he completely misrepresented the Elrond/Arwen/Aragorn dynamic. He virtually ignored explaining precisely who Aragorn was [as the true descendants of the Numenorean kings, Aragorn ties directly into Elrond's own family history as his brother Elros was the first King of Numenor]. In the books there is much about this history which fuels Elrond's decisions about his daughter and Aragorn. In the films Elrond is portrayed as a human-hating Elf who doesn't want his daughter to be with the guy he doesn't like [like a million other movies]. The relationship between Aragorn and Elrond is MUCH MUCH deeper than that.
As I understood it, the proposal was to make 2 more films in total.And there's the problem with Peter Jackson. There is NO need for The Hobbit to be two films. Unlike LotR, the Hobbit is a rather straightforward story, and can so easily be adapted into a film... well into ANOTHER film I should say as it has already been an animated film. If he wants to make it two films, it's because like with LotR he has new material to add in. Well that and the money. Both reasons disgust me.
First one is The Hobbit.
Second one is the time between The Hobbit and the start of LotR. (White Council / Dol Guldor / Finding of Gollum / etc.... etc..) Material for that 2nd one might be sketchy but probably enough to create a base?
On the LotR films debate:-
I was quite happy with the expanded role of Arwen - worked out well I thought & at least the non-book moviegoers got some sense of who she was etc... - had Jackson followed the Book then they would have had not a clue as to who this great love of Aragorn's was.
Haldir & the elves at Helm's Deep? - not a bad ploy again for the movies. The Haradrim fought their own battles of course in the Book - but we only hear them referred to vaguely. Not unreasonable of PJ & Co to do what they did. Would have been impossible to have a 'separate' Elvish battle. Again the non-book public got a good sense that the Elves also fought Sauron. Otherwise they would have gone away thinking no one but the race of men (including the dead!) + 1 elf + 1 dwarf gave a damn.
I'm a huge LotR Book fan - but I thoroughly enjoyed the movies too - and they hav in no way spoiled my subsequent re-read's for me.
I love Brian's LOTR talk, not sure why...but I really do
The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket
Ah but methinks in R_of_G we've got a much bigger LotR Geek than me Matt!
Or just a more opinionated/obnoxious one. I don't diminish the LotR geekhood of anyone with as cool an avatar name as ManofWesternesse. So, since that is your handle, do you wish PJ had elaborated a bit more on just who the Dunedain really were? I mean he kep the name "Return of the King" but didn't really get very far in terms of depicting the history of Gondor and why there was no king, and how long there had been no king, and how the kingship ties into Numenor and how Sauron was the arch-enemy of the Numenoreans having caused their downfall and all. I don't think he "needed" to explain any of it to make it a workable film, but I know I'd have enjoyed it a bit more if he had. It's that depth of history that always gets me with Tolkien. There is a direct line running right from the early days of Valinor and the destruction of the two trees straight through to the crowning of Aragorn and the rebirth of the tree in Gondor that makes the whole thing seem so, well I guess "real" is the word I want here.
Either way, good to have others around to talk Tolkien with.
- that's been my handle on pretty much every site I've ever registered at!
One thing I really,really,really missed from the films (and which would have been easily done imho) was the riding of the Grey Company from the north - with Halbarad and his kinsmen riding to Aragorn's aid ("... who rides in Rohan...?" - the hair is standing on my neck now just typing it!), and Ellodan and Elrohir with them. Ah! PJ - there was a missed chance....
I'll have to try to load my Banner from .net (& ThatPlace) here, If I can - had trouble last time I tried...... Matt?
It's a beautiful banner, with the winged crown and a ship west-bound - with the great quote " Out of the Great Sea to Middle Earth I am come, In this place I will abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world".
It was made for me by Miranoriel - who is known to many here.
maybe I can attach it here anyway so you can see it...
= yup! that worked!
I waited and waited and waited for the Grey Company & the twins to arrive, but alas they never came. To me, the whole story from the arrival of Halbarad and the Grey Co. to their passage thru the Paths of the Dead and their arrival by sea to help swing the Battle of the Pelennor Fields is the heart of that book. Again, it's because of the previous history of the Dunedain and the symbolism of Aragorn arriving as a "Sea King" like his ancestors. I thought the scene where they unfurl the black flag on the ships to reveal the crest of Gondor would have been the single most powerful in the film [it still gives me chills when I read it] had PJ decided it was worthy.
I could get that one loaded to your sig if you like Brian. I...think its not too big but I would have to check.
One thing I really,really,really missed from the films (and which would have been easily done imho) was the riding of the Grey Company from the north - with Halbarad and his kinsmen riding to Aragorn's aid ("... who rides in Rohan...?" - the hair is standing on my neck now just typing it!), and Ellodan and Elrohir with them. Ah! PJ - there was a missed chance....
I'll have to try to load my Banner from .net (& ThatPlace) here, If I can - had trouble last time I tried...... Matt?
It's a beautiful banner, with the winged crown and a ship west-bound - with the great quote " Out of the Great Sea to Middle Earth I am come, In this place I will abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world".
It was made for me by Miranoriel - who is known to many here.
maybe I can attach it here anyway so you can see it...
= yup! that worked!
The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket
Matt, that would be graetly appreciated, if you can.
Here's a smaller version - if the other proves too big.
Say Thankee!
Yes, that moment when all the hopes of the free peoples on the Pelennor Field seem dashed indeed to see the Black Ships in the Harlond - then - all of a sudden - the banner of the Kings is unfurled at the mast!!!!! Ah! magical stuff!
But I am slow to be over-critical of PJ - all-in-all I really appreciate what he (& they all!) did. They made a much better job of it than my fears looked for.
It should be there now Brian, you may have to post again to see it though.
The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket
Bloody Hell! - I did'nt even have time to click my fingers!
Thank you very much indeed Matt! - yeah - looks kinda good, don't it!
Brian, the banner looks great!
It looks really good!
I am Daenerys Stormborn and I will take what is mine. With fire and blood.
Yeah - kudos to Mira - she's talented.It looks really good!
Its very cool--when I saw it I thought..."that must be done now"
The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket
R_of_G
Horrible? Come on, man. That's a little much I think. The story for Kangaroo Jack is horrible. You may not have liked some of the liberties the filmmakers took with the story, but it's far from horrible if you put it up against other films. Especially other films in its genre.the story was horrible
Also, I agree with you that the addition of some scenes was not needed. As Gollum would say (uses his raspy Gollum voice) "it's too risky."
That being said, I think I can explain why they put the Aragorn cliff scene in the movie. I think they wanted to create a little bit of suspense at that point in the film that would lead into Helms Deep. By putting Aragorn's life in peril, it shows the weight of the situation and puts the odds in even more favor of evil.
Also, by letting Aragorn ride into Helms Deep to lift the spirits of everybody, solidifies him as the hero he is starting to become. It's telling the audience member, "this guy is the man, watch out for him."
That scene also gave them the opportunity to further the relationship between Aragorn and Arwen. It also shows the viewer what is at stake.
I'm not sure how much that will fly with you. All I'm saying is the scene had a reason, it wasn't just thrown in there.
[quote=Still Servant;73652]Horrible? Come on, man. That's a little much I think ... You may not have liked some of the liberties the filmmakers took with the story, but it's far from horrible if you put it up against other films. [QUOTE=Still Servant;73652]
It's an adaptation of an existing work so all I put it up against is the book. That is the problem I have with the story, that there already was a perfectly good story that needed some editing, but no additions. I find adding story to something like Tolkien insulting. If and when someone makes a film version of the Tower I for one will not be thrilled if there are scenes made up out of whole cloth like that. The LotR story endures for generations precisely because it's so well-formed as it is.
I agree with your view on why they thought those scenes might be necessary, I just disagree that they were necessary. It seems to me that they sacrificed too much of the book to please a movie audience who may never have read the books. Now, I don't have any issue with people who had never read the books seeing the movies, but I don't like the idea of tinkering too much with the story to make it more of a movie, which is to say, to make it more like other movies. A little more Arwen than in the books would have been fine, but she was not by any means even a supporting character in the book, yet the film is all about her and Aragorn. Don't get me wrong, I love a good love story [Beren & Luthien's story in the Silmarillion is a real heartbreaker] but to me Aragorn's story is as much a love for his people as it is for his Queen.
R of G, I got to agree with you about the cliff. When he went over that cliff, my husband and I looked at each other at the same time with big WTF looks on our faces. I would have loved a picture of that look we passed.
The other thing added, which I don't think added anything to the movies was the whole Saruman wanting the ring for Sauron thing. He wanted it for himself and was using (or so he thought) Sauron to get it. And he told Gandalf that. Not that whole let's work with Sauron crap. And Saruman didn't cause the freaking snowstorm! Stuff like that didn't make sense to add. It didn't shorten the story any, and I don't think it was less confusing then the way the book went.
But oh, well.... I don't get paid the big bucks so they don't listen to me.
R of G, I know you're not so fond of the movies, so I wouldn't expect you to have purchased the extended editions, but a lot of the added scenes are stuff that was added for fans of the books.
So if you haven't seen the extended editions, you might have a new found appreciation for the films upon watching them.
In case you can't tell, I have a deep need to make everybody I come in contact with love these films. Just ask my family and friends, they find it very annoying. It's a disease.
This is totally my little opinion, but do you know what I REALLY wanted to see in the movie, what I thought would be a really killer visual? The Ent attack on Isengard. In the book it is so vivid, the description of their feet and hands growing roots and literally breaking everything apart. That COULD have been wicked. Could have been..... *sigh*
Don't worry Servant, I still liked the movies.
Phew.
*checks Tel off his list*
I really wanted to see Prince Imrahil (sp?) in the movies. I always liked him.
Some scenes in the movie were so visually stunning and beautiful. Like the scene in Fellowship of the Ring (I think it might just be in the extended version?) where Frodo and Sam see the Elves walking through the woods on their way to leave Middle Earth. The elves are glowing and some really moving music is playing. That scene really took my breath away.
I am Daenerys Stormborn and I will take what is mine. With fire and blood.
I think the thing we need to keep in focus here is how they brought the world of Tolkien to life for many people who had never read the books. I read the books as a teen and saw the Bakishi Cartoons. To be honest with you, I consider myself a pretty voracious intelligent reader, but I had a few problems reading LOTR. My 2 daughters have watched all of the films with me and my 13 yr old really wanted to start reading the books after she saw the movies. She came to me with this "deer in the headlights" look and asked me " How do you read these?, Am I missing something?" She is still trying, but the movies at least gave her a start in figuring things out. She has rewatched the movies a few times now. And on Peter Jackson, I am not mad at this man for what he did. Remember, Hollywood does not make movies of this size for a select few to watch. They still have to pay the bills at the end of all of this. I think PJ and Weta works gave us some wonderful movies, not entirely accurate, but wonderful still the same.
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