Roland's choice *HARD spoilers*

[Matt]

You know how to make a guy feel good Matthew.

[Wuducynn]

I don't think Roland is cognizant of any previous iterations. So while he might do things different in each, it would only be by accident. One thing that has occurred to me during this conversation is the notion of "ka like a wheel". Either way, I think at this point in the story, given the knowledge he has, he's always going to make the same choice. That knowledge being that there's a problem with the tower, and if he doesn't go there to fix it, all worlds will collapse, and crumble. It becomes a choice between the life of one innocent child, and all innocent children. Which really is the age old "life boat" debate.

When he lets Jake drop do you think hes really concerned about all the children in all the worlds or that he just reach the Tower to climb to its top?

[TerribleT]

Hey, diplo-Matt, what do you think about Roland's choice to let Jake drop?

Its a lesson in whats important in life. Sure, the universe hangs in the balance but a person cannot allow that as an excuse to become a monster.

The end should not justify the means.

So do you believe we should not have nuked Japan?

[TerribleT]

I don't think Roland is cognizant of any previous iterations. So while he might do things different in each, it would only be by accident. One thing that has occurred to me during this conversation is the notion of "ka like a wheel". Either way, I think at this point in the story, given the knowledge he has, he's always going to make the same choice. That knowledge being that there's a problem with the tower, and if he doesn't go there to fix it, all worlds will collapse, and crumble. It becomes a choice between the life of one innocent child, and all innocent children. Which really is the age old "life boat" debate.

When he lets Jake drop do you think hes really concerned about all the children in all the worlds or that he just reach the Tower to climb to its top?

He's sworn an oath to protect the tower, I think he only cares about being true to the face of his father.

[Brice]

I reject the basic premise of the discussion. I don't think, given what Roland knew at the time, he had any choice.

Do you think that Roland has no choices to do things different with each loop then?

I don't think Roland is cognizant of any previous iterations. So while he might do things different in each, it would only be by accident. One thing that has occurred to me during this conversation is the notion of "ka like a wheel". Either way, I think at this point in the story, given the knowledge he has, he's always going to make the same choice. That knowledge being that there's a problem with the tower, and if he doesn't go there to fix it, all worlds will collapse, and crumble. It becomes a choice between the life of one innocent child, and all innocent children. Which really is the age old "life boat" debate.

See, if it came to a choice for me of not saving one child for the greater good or damning all of humanity I'd choose to save the child to save humanity.

[Matt]

Hey, diplo-Matt, what do you think about Roland's choice to let Jake drop?

Its a lesson in whats important in life. Sure, the universe hangs in the balance but a person cannot allow that as an excuse to become a monster.

The end should not justify the means.

So do you believe we should not have nuked Japan?

Well, that's an interesting question. We're talking about a governments response to war and what I would personally do.

I know we nuked children at the end of World War Two and I'm not going to say we didn't have to.

I am just saying that I'm not sure that saving Jake would have ended the quest to save the tower. Or that the tower is anything more than Rolands own personal hell.

Like...save Jake and the tower is no longer falling kind of thing. Because the tower is about Roland.

I guess that's pretty much what Matthew said but longer.

[Storyslinger]

Thats a good point, the tower is really just Rolands Journeys, and as long as the conflicts remain inside of him, tearing him down, the tower will continue to fall

[Childe 007]

He's sworn an oath to protect the tower, I think he only cares about being true to the face of his father.

And here's the crux of the matter.

Just exactly how does he "be true" to the face of his father?

At This point in the Story - just exactly what does that mean?

[TerribleT]

IMHO seeing through a sworn oath....as it relates to this particular topic.

[Childe 007]

IMHO seeing through a sworn oath....as it relates to this particular topic.

OK - and slap me if I missed it - but just what's the oath he's sworn?

To reach the Tower? We discover in W&G that he was diverted from all else by "the grapefruit" - which showed him the Tower and (perhaps) his responsibilty to it. He implies and hints at many things that happened during that "Long Road Home" and Robin may reveal some of that to us soon; but was his pursuit of "the man in black" one of those things? Was "sacrifice" one of those things?

I think that maybe the chase; and the sacrifice of whatever he began to love in the "pursuit" of his revelation just became habits. He must chase because that is what he does - he must sacrifice - because (since Susan) that is what is demanded of him.

Just like that classic line from The Outlaw Josie Wales: "Everytime I get to likeing someone, they ain't around very long." - To which the wise indian chief replied: "I notice that when you get to disliking someone - they ain't around very long either."

At this point in the story - his life has been destroyed. His world has "moved on" - he chases - he sacrifrices. He niether likes or dislikes anyone. He kills anything and everything that gets in his way. Until the Way Station.

It's at that point that things change - every time.

[TerribleT]

IMHO seeing through a sworn oath....as it relates to this particular topic.

OK - and slap me if I missed it - but just what's the oath he's sworn?

To reach the Tower? We discover in W&G that he was diverted from all else by "the grapefruit" - which showed him the Tower and (perhaps) his responsibilty to it. He implies and hints at many things that happened during that "Long Road Home" and Robin may reveal some of that to us soon; but was his pursuit of "the man in black" one of those things? Was "sacrifice" one of those things?

I think that maybe the chase; and the sacrifice of whatever he began to love in the "pursuit" of his revelation just became habits. He must chase because that is what he does - he must sacrifice - because (since Susan) that is what is demanded of him.

Just like that classic line from The Outlaw Josie Wales: "Everytime I get to likeing someone, they ain't around very long." - To which the wise indian chief replied: "I notice that when you get to disliking someone - they ain't around very long either."

At this point in the story - his life has been destroyed. His world has "moved on" - he chases - he sacrifrices. He niether likes or dislikes anyone. He kills anything and everything that gets in his way. Until the Way Station.

It's at that point that things change - every time.

*SLAP*

He says "I am sworn by my father's guns, and by the the treachery of Marten" during the prophecy of the oracle, which is also where he is told of his choice to save Jake, or to allow him to die.

Some, gunslnger, live on blood. Even, I understand, the blood of young boys.
May he not be spared?
Yes.
How?
Cease, gunslinger......
I'm sworn by my fathers guns.....


While he is speaking with the man in black, nearing the end of the long dark night, he says, "Understand what? My Purpose? You know that. To find the Tower is my purpose. I'm sworn."

Also during his palaver with the man in black he learns that to continue on his mission he must"Start wwest. Go to the sea...." This, as I've stated before, is also where he learns of his ability to draw, and of the Prisoner, and The Lady of the Shadows, and of his unique mind.

He MUST catch the man in black, in order to continue his quest for the tower. In order to do so, he must sacrifice Jake. It's really not a matter of habit, it's completely a matter of choice, and his internal struggle over this is repeatedly brought to light during The Gunslinger.

[NeedfulKings]

I think it comes down to Roland's impatience as to why so many fell along the way. In The Gunslinger, you learn that this IS his quest and he'll do what it takes to reach his Tower. Yes, he could have saved Jake and (as earlier noted) taken the time to find another way over/under the mountains, but he didn't have that in his sights. He was always looking forward! Never back.

BTW, I think this thread, omong other things, contains many spoilers from the 6 books that follow. I don't want to be a spoiler police, but considering that we're discussing "ultimate" outcomes and differences, maybe this would be better served in the DTVII area.

Just my opinion.

[jayson]

Yes, he could have saved Jake and (as earlier noted) taken the time to find another way over/under the mountains, but he didn't have that in his sights. He was always looking forward! Never back.

I disagree. To me it's pretty clear in The Gunslinger that Roland didn't just sacrifice Jake because he didn't pause to refelct on his options. On the contrary, he agonized over the decision, but knew that he had exactly two choices, the boy or the Tower. Whether he consciously knew it or not, Walter was his path to the Tower. Had he not caught up with him then, he very well could have wandered until he died. It's very easy to suggest he could find "another way" past the mountains, but would he have still been allowed to draw his three without the sacrifice of Jake? Likely not.

[Wuducynn]

I disagree. To me it's pretty clear in The Gunslinger that Roland didn't just sacrifice Jake because he didn't pause to refelct on his options. On the contrary, he agonized over the decision, but knew that he had exactly two choices, the boy or the Tower. Whether he consciously knew it or not, Walter was his path to the Tower. Had he not caught up with him then, he very well could have wandered until he died. It's very easy to suggest he could find "another way" past the mountains, but would he have still been allowed to draw his three without the sacrifice of Jake? Likely not.

Do you believe Gan and the other gods of the White want Roland to win in his quest? Seems like there is an awful lot of evidence that they are willing to do what needs to be done to make sure he does, because of the stakes involved. It seems that if he didn't let Jake drop they would have helped Roland do what he needs to do.

[TerribleT]

Yes, he could have saved Jake and (as earlier noted) taken the time to find another way over/under the mountains, but he didn't have that in his sights. He was always looking forward! Never back.

I disagree. To me it's pretty clear in The Gunslinger that Roland didn't just sacrifice Jake because he didn't pause to refelct on his options. On the contrary, he agonized over the decision, but knew that he had exactly two choices, the boy or the Tower. Whether he consciously knew it or not, Walter was his path to the Tower. Had he not caught up with him then, he very well could have wandered until he died. It's very easy to suggest he could find "another way" past the mountains, but would he have still been allowed to draw his three without the sacrifice of Jake? Likely not.

That's EXACTLY my take on it, from out here in Bizarro World

[jayson]

Do you believe Gan and the other gods of the White want Roland to win in his quest? Seems like there is an awful lot of evidence that they are willing to do what needs to be done to make sure he does, because of the stakes involved. It seems that if he didn't let Jake drop they would have helped Roland do what he needs to do.

It's a good question Matt, though I'm not sure my answer. For starters, I don't know how much I believe that there are other gods of the White. I believe there is a Gan [at least in as much as it being the overarching creative force of the world], but not so sure there are actual beings either watching or playing some role in how things turn out. If there were, sure, I believe they'd want to help Roland if they could [however, the metaphysics and "rules" of that would work is beyond me].

[Wuducynn]

It's a good question Matt, though I'm not sure my answer. For starters, I don't know how much I believe that there are other gods of the White. I believe there is a Gan [at least in as much as it being the overarching creative force of the world], but not so sure there are actual beings either watching or playing some role in how things turn out. If there were, sure, I believe they'd want to help Roland if they could [however, the metaphysics and "rules" of that would work is beyond me].

Well I'm going by the series and the comics (which because of King's involvement in it I consider canon) which mentions multiple deities, but whatever you like Gan or the whole bunch, someone is trying to help Roland and his ka-tet to win through to the Tower, along with Los' and his various followers trying to keep him from doing so.
It seems to me if he had decided not to let Jake drop then they, it, whomever would have helped Roland find the way and draw who he needs to draw.

[jayson]

Well I'm going by the series and the comics (which because of King's involvement in it I consider canon) which mentions multiple deities, but whatever you like Gan or the whole bunch, someone is trying to help Roland and his ka-tet to win through to the Tower, along with Los' and his various followers trying to keep him from doing so.
It seems to me if he had decided not to let Jake drop then they, it, whomever would have helped Roland find the way and draw who he needs to draw.

Certainly possible. I do agree that there is certainly something trying to make sure Roland reaches the Tower, and that something puts things/people in his path that help him achieve this goal. So, yes, I suppose now that I have thought it out, I do think he could have made it to the Tower had he not dropped Jake, but that the path may have been VERY different.

Good question Matt.

And for the record, I also consider the comics part of the canon.

[Wuducynn]

*Puts it on record*

[NeedfulKings]

Roland may have agonized over the decision between Jake and the Tower, but his choice to press on as opposed to go back was born of impatience, and maybe more importantly, self preservation.

DTVII (Series Ending) Spoiler:

Spoiler:

In the next turn of the wheel he has the horn. I've always considered this a small token for an even bigger change in Roland. He will do things differently. His decisions (similar to the ones under the mountain) may change. These will affect his journey. Good or bad, it will be different.

I think the comic series does a LOT to fill in historical details, etc. I consider them reliable.

[Wuducynn]

Roland may have agonized over the decision between Jake and the Tower, but his choice to press on as opposed to go back was born of impatience, and maybe more importantly, self preservation.

DTVII (Series Ending) Spoiler:

Spoiler:

In the next turn of the wheel he has the horn. I've always considered this a small token for an even bigger change in Roland. He will do things differently. His decisions (similar to the ones under the mountain) may change. These will affect his journey. Good or bad, it will be different.

I think the comic series does a LOT to fill in historical details, etc. I consider them reliable.

Agreed completely Bill. No need to put spoiler tags in this thread since its already noted as a spoiler thread. Bitch.

[jayson]

Roland may have agonized over the decision between Jake and the Tower, but his choice to press on as opposed to go back was born of impatience, and maybe more importantly, self preservation.

DTVII (Series Ending) Spoiler:

Spoiler:

In the next turn of the wheel he has the horn. I've always considered this a small token for an even bigger change in Roland. He will do things differently. His decisions (similar to the ones under the mountain) may change. These will affect his journey. Good or bad, it will be different.

I think the comic series does a LOT to fill in historical details, etc. I consider them reliable.

Though I still disagree about Roland's motivation at that point, I agree completely with the rest of what you said.

[NeedfulKings]

thanks, Crimson! My question is...is THIS a spoiler thread for the whole series or just the first book? In other words, if I have read The Gunslinger, but no others, can I safely come here to discuss?

Sincerely,
The Bitch

[NeedfulKings]

As I ponder all of this, I think that most of Roland's selfish decisions are based on self preservation, more than anything else. Going back for Jake would have threatened his own existance. Why chance that for a boy? Even one he loved.

[Wuducynn]

I see what you're saying...but how much worrying should everyone have to do about it? Really, if you're going on to a Dark Tower fan message board like this and haven't read The Gunslinger and don't want to be spoiled, you shouldn't be clicking this forum.