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Thread: John Farson (spoilers)

  1. #26
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    For me, a lot depends on this. Namely, the quality of the book I'm reading.

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  2. #27
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    I have never had any doubts that they are two separate persons. Otherwise, IMHO, it would be overly simple (everything bad that happens has a single source) and at the same time too complex on a different level: magic or not, a villain needs to have accomplices - if only to get another perspective on how to make evil things even more evil, or not to have to pay attention to every single detail of every single plan. So to think that it's just one person, essentially "wearing different hats"... hmmm, that would make Flagg too much of a madman, in the medical sense of the word.

    I know this is off-topic here, but as a general observation: *is* there any form of government that is not, in and of itself, a breeding ground for the forces that may/will spell its doom?
    The question itself might be rhethorical, but it lends itself to the discussion of whether or not Farson was what he was because of his personal qualities, or just because he happened to be in the right place at the right time.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by RainInSpain View Post
    I have never had any doubts that they are two separate persons. Otherwise, IMHO, it would be overly simple (everything bad that happens has a single source) and at the same time too complex on a different level: magic or not, a villain needs to have accomplices - if only to get another perspective on how to make evil things even more evil, or not to have to pay attention to every single detail of every single plan. So to think that it's just one person, essentially "wearing different hats"... hmmm, that would make Flagg too much of a madman, in the medical sense of the word.
    Those points don't necessarily contradict the rest of TDT, though. In any case, it's already established that Flagg did wear many different hats, and I think it's arguable that, whether or not all evil having a single source is or is not more simple than real life, TDT asserts a mythos wherein it basically is all one.
    Quote Originally Posted by RainInSpain View Post
    I know this is off-topic here, but as a general observation: *is* there any form of government that is not, in and of itself, a breeding ground for the forces that may/will spell its doom?
    The question itself might be rhethorical, but it lends itself to the discussion of whether or not Farson was what he was because of his personal qualities, or just because he happened to be in the right place at the right time.
    I think that very question was a major theme of The Stand. We've discussed the topic of why Farson was what he was in various places over the years, including this thread, which is offically the place to discuss how the society of the gunslingers measures up.

  4. #29
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    Then we come to the question (at least I do) about the definition of what it means to have a "single source of evil". Does it mean that every evil-doer is basically another appearance/incarnation/disguise of that single source - like different clothes worn by the same person; or is that single source a mastermind that can attract/enchant/persuade *other* creatures to follow?

    (Thanks for pointing me to that other discussion!)
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    No thanks necessary; I'd love for you to join it. And other folken here, as well, if y'all have anything to say on that.

    I guess I raised that question for you by not exactly getting the point that you were making. Having more bad guys in an epic does seem less corny.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    No thanks necessary; I'd love for you to join it. And other folken here, as well, if y'all have anything to say on that.

    I guess I raised that question for you by not exactly getting the point that you were making. Having more bad guys in an epic does seem less corny.
    Exactly. In a nutshell, I think RF and JF are different persons because I do not see how having them as one would benefit the story.

    I guess I was not clear enough because what I wrote was a sort of “thought in progress” – I am trying to systematize my thinking of ka, Gan, the Crimson King et al. and generally the balance of good, evil, and neutral in TDT.
    I’ll also jump right in with questions into that other thread as soon as I’m done reading it.
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  7. #32
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    You see, the Crimson King is an entity, but he gets his power from the evil of men. His whole existence is based on evil energy. Madmen make the Crimson King powerful. Roland is also an incarnation of survival. Roland is the incarnation of all the people who fight to protect the good.

    I still believe its possible for Flagg to actually be Farson. In the last book it is even stated that some people knew Flagg as John Farson, albeit this was written before the graphic novels. Remember, Flagg is a magician who can do real magic. There is little history about Farson. I think whenever Flagg was in farson's presence, the man we see as being Farson is a decoy, someone under one of Flagg's spells.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by 19eye-rosecrow-gun View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RainInSpain View Post
    ...I am trying to systematize my thinking of ka, Gan, the Crimson King et al. and generally the balance of good, evil, and neutral in TDT.
    I’ll also jump right in with questions into that other thread as soon as I’m done reading it.
    You see, the Crimson King is an entity, but he gets his power from the evil of men. His whole existence is based on evil energy. Madmen make the Crimson King powerful. Roland is also an incarnation of survival. Roland is the incarnation of all the people who fight to protect the good.
    Really? Are you sure CK depends on the evil of men, and not the other way around? Still off-topic, I know. I'm sorry that I don't have a handy single link on this. I'm utterly fascinated by the subject. We talk a lot about these issues all over in the DT7 forum, and in Town Commons. I'll keep an eye open, whereever you wanna take it.
    Quote Originally Posted by 19eye-rosecrow-gun View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RainInSpain View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    ...I guess I raised that question for you by not exactly getting the point that you were making. Having more bad guys in an epic does seem less corny.
    Exactly. In a nutshell, I think RF and JF are different persons because I do not see how having them as one would benefit the story.
    ...
    ...I still believe its possible for Flagg to actually be Farson. In the last book it is even stated that some people knew Flagg as John Farson, albeit this was written before the graphic novels. Remember, Flagg is a magician who can do real magic. There is little history about Farson. I think whenever Flagg was in farson's presence, the man we see as being Farson is a decoy, someone under one of Flagg's spells.
    I think it's possible, too. Even if Jean's right and it makes the book's quality less, that doesn't necessarily prove that it's not so. What most benefits the story isn't always done; that's a somewhat separate question. That one, though, does warrant inclusion in this thread, IMO. What do you think 19eye-rosecrow-gun? If they ARE one, does that not detract from the fiction's value?

  9. #34
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    I think it's possible, too. Even if Jean's right and it makes the book's quality less, that doesn't necessarily prove that it's not so. What most benefits the story isn't always done; that's a somewhat separate question. That one, though, does warrant inclusion in this thread, IMO. What do you think 19eye-rosecrow-gun? If they ARE one, does that not detract from the fiction's value?
    Spoilers....


    I don't think it makes the story any less powerful. I just believe this based on the last book and the last comic. Farson never shows his face (from what I can tell) and it is stated that the last man over seeing the destruction on Jericho Hill, the man behind it all is "Walter, or Marten, or whatever you wanna call him..."

    As for the Crimson King, yes, I do believe he gets his power from the evil of men. His power comes from the sickness and evil of all worlds, and even the creatures of the prim. He is part man, because or Arther Eld. Thus I believe his evil is that of men.

    Flagg was a man who reigned much destruction over a long period of time, and he helped create a new breed of disaster (mordred, which if you say it slowly is MORE DREAD). His power contributed greatly to CK.

    My theory is The Dark Tower used CK as something like a dream catcher, to capture all the evil, then cleanse itself by having Roland as its defender, and taking down the Crimson King. Patrick Danville is a little more complicated to describe.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by 19eye-rosecrow-gun View Post
    Spoilers....

    I don't think it makes the story any less powerful. I just believe this based on the last book and the last comic. Farson never shows his face (from what I can tell) and it is stated that the last man over seeing the destruction on Jericho Hill, the man behind it all is "Walter, or Marten, or whatever you wanna call him..."
    I understand what you mean, and I found a quote that supports what you're saying, so I stand corrected.

    This is from The Final Argument that precedes WotC:

    "It's Roland's ancient nemesis, Marten Broadcloak, known in some worlds as Randall Flagg, in others as Richard Fannin, in others as John Farson (the Good Man). Roland and his friends are unable to kill this apparition, who warns them one final time to give up their quest for the Tower ("Only misfires against me, Roland, old fellow," he tells the gunslinger), but they are able to banish him."

    That being said, I still think that to have evil concentrated in one hands in this case is somewhat detrimental to the story. I'm advocating for having multiple villains, great and small, because that's the way to show more sides of human (and inhuman) nature.
    Instead of depicting a single larger-than-life figure that's made the embodiment of all evil, and a few of its cronies, I'd rather see an evil mastermind, lesser villains in its service, then those who've chosen the dark side or think they can use it for their own benefit, and finally, 'cannon fodder' who are not necessary pure evil. It's those who've stepped over to the dark side that interest me most - their reasons and backstory.
    After all, characters that are inherently evil are just a bunch of mean bastards, so nothing tremendously interesting about them
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  11. #36
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Sorry guys but I think it's needful to change the title of the thread. Even if we have different opinions about it, it can be a spoiler.
    And soon this thread will be moved to the Villagers. Don't hate me.

    Roland would have understood.

  12. #37
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    Thanks, Letti!

    BTW, I love this new thread name
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    I don't think Flagg is the embodiment of evil who is an almighty villain. The one who is the embodiment of evil is the Crimson King.

    In my personal interpretation, Flagg turned evil because he felt betrayed by his step-parents, his real parents (Merlin and the Moon Goddess), and then he is betrayed by a person who winds up raping him along his journey. When people don't know what trust is they have a very hard time being nice to other people. I think there is a lot of ambiguity to Walter's character, but I believe there is enough to interpret the humanity of Flagg, evil as it may be.

    The seeing Eye is a symbol evil men use through out the story to associate their evil with a greater power, so as to say they are doing it for a greater force than their own. Even Flagg says "We are what the tower makes us...". They don't take responsibility for their destruction, and Roland is a conflicting anti-hero because no matter who dies, he will justify their deaths with his symbol: The Dark Tower.

    CK lacks substance more than Flagg, and Farson is even worse in this sense (saying he was separate from Walter). It is kind of funny to me how the less substance is in King's characters, the more evil they turn out to be.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by 19eye-rosecrow-gun View Post
    I don't think Flagg is the embodiment of evil who is an almighty villain. The one who is the embodiment of evil is the Crimson King.

    In my personal interpretation, Flagg turned evil because he felt betrayed by his step-parents, his real parents (Merlin and the Moon Goddess), and then he is betrayed by a person who winds up raping him along his journey. When people don't know what trust is they have a very hard time being nice to other people. I think there is a lot of ambiguity to Walter's character, but I believe there is enough to interpret the humanity of Flagg, evil as it may be.

    <clip>

    CK lacks substance more than Flagg, and Farson is even worse in this sense (saying he was separate from Walter). It is kind of funny to me how the less substance is in King's characters, the more evil they turn out to be.
    Oh no, it's not Flagg who's an almighty evil. I meant CK.

    We get to know very little (and very late in the story in case of Walter/Flagg) about the past of the bad guys. And I think that's why it looks like they lack substance. It seems unfair towards the evil forces to give them so little thought. Perhaps it was intentional - it's supposed to be "the less you know about something bad, the scarier it looks", but does it not turn CK, for example, into some sort of half-imaginary bogeyman?

    That's why I wanted Farson to be a separate character - that way, there could be additional reasons for what happened to Mid-World. Right now it looks like a whole world went to hell in a hand basket because some child molester raped a wrong boy long ago in the past.

    (Note: Sorry if that sounded insensitive - I'm in no way underestimating the pain that victims of such crimes suffer in RL. I'm only speaking about a character in a book right now.)
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  15. #40
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    I would recommend merging this to "Randall Flagg - discussion of the character and his many guises" since even if we decide Farson wasn't one of them, that question of this topic still is such discussion, but we've got a couple of other subjects going here now, as well. First, the question of how well SK's villians are written and how that impacts his work. Secondly, workings of good & evil in the DT mythos. And I'm thinking at this point that those two might still come together around the issue of responsibilty, if we can agree that King wanted that to be a theme.
    Quote Originally Posted by 19eye-rosecrow-gun View Post
    ...As for the Crimson King, yes, I do believe he gets his power from the evil of men. His power comes from the sickness and evil of all worlds, and even the creatures of the prim. He is part man, because or Arther Eld. Thus I believe his evil is that of men. ...
    I'm sure that there is a relationship, but does the sickness create the CK's power, or does his power create the sickness? Is his nature such that he needs evil to survive, or does he just like propagating it?

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    I will admit that CK has an influence, but only because evil people like to use him as an idol for their wicked actions. I do believe that people are the reason for his power. This is why when Father Callahan looked into the glass and saw the unblinking eye looking at him, he screamed. Its as if all the terror, rage and bad intentions that have ever existed in mankind were directed at him.

    We still don't know much about the Crimson King before he went mad. He lived in a castle with servants, and then one day he goes mad. I wonder if he was as evil before that.

    Patrick Danville is able to destroy the Crimson King because he can look into his evil eyes and not go completely insane.

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    I think they are different people. In terms of power, the Crimson King and Walter/Marten basically use Farson as a puppet. Walter/Marten would easily be able to manipulate Farson into actions that he thought were of his own devising but came from the King himself.

    Initially, I would imagine that Farson would simply be a charismatic man who would have spoken out against the Gunslingers' regime and thus gained a small number of followers. Let's not forget the Crimson King and His agents would have almost certainly had methods of knowing what was going on in All-World, especially when it comes to the Gunslingers/Affiliation. There were likely numerous outbreaks of unrest, and taking into account the intelligence of the Crimson King et al. he would likely keep eyes on these outbreaks to see if any of them would be likely to gain enough momentum to overthrow Gilead. Once the Farson-led unrest was known, the King would sent Walter/Marten to assist in his rise to power. It's not impossible that Walter/Marten was there with Farson from an earlier stage than I suggest, under a variety of guises. But no, Farson was definitely a separate person in my mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HellBeast View Post
    I think they are different people. In terms of power, the Crimson King and Walter/Marten basically use Farson as a puppet. Walter/Marten would easily be able to manipulate Farson into actions that he thought were of his own devising but came from the King himself.

    Initially, I would imagine that Farson would simply be a charismatic man who would have spoken out against the Gunslingers' regime and thus gained a small number of followers. Let's not forget the Crimson King and His agents would have almost certainly had methods of knowing what was going on in All-World, especially when it comes to the Gunslingers/Affiliation. There were likely numerous outbreaks of unrest, and taking into account the intelligence of the Crimson King et al. he would likely keep eyes on these outbreaks to see if any of them would be likely to gain enough momentum to overthrow Gilead. Once the Farson-led unrest was known, the King would sent Walter/Marten to assist in his rise to power. It's not impossible that Walter/Marten was there with Farson from an earlier stage than I suggest, under a variety of guises. But no, Farson was definitely a separate person in my mind.
    I believe this is quite a possibility, and I do think Farson could be a separate person from Flagg in the sense you are describing.

  19. #44
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    Default Man In Black and the Good Man.

    Ladies and gentlemen, I want to see some of your responses to this question.

    Is Randall Flagg and John Farson the same person?

    I want to see evidence that backs up your claim.


    Long days.
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  20. #45
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    Welcome to the forum, Krims0nKing!

    We have a similar thread going on - "They (who? open the thread) are one." , there is quite a bit of information on this subject in that discussion.
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  21. #46
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    I believe Randall Flagg and John Farson are the same person. I believe this because, we all know that Flagg was Martin Broadcloak, Roland's fathers magician back in Gilead. We know that Martin had sex with Roland's mother. Now later on, not sure which book it is, someone is talking to Roland, and I'm not sure how to quote it correctly but they say something like, Roland is just mad because his mother did something perverted with the Good Man and did it with glee. They didn't say she did something with Martin, but with John Farson. C'mon, put it together. Farson is Martin, Martin is Flagg.
    Last edited by Letti; 12-29-2010 at 05:29 AM. Reason: I resized the letters
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  22. #47
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    Flagg and Farson were two different characters - Farson has a nephew which Flagg doesn't have, Flagg himself states he isn't Farson in the last DT book, and we actually see them to be different people in the comics.

    However, it is more than likely given Flaggs ability to shapeshift that he changed into "Farson" whenever it suited his needs.

    As such, even though they are different characters, Flagg was a Farson lookalike at times hence some people mistakingly believing them to be the same person.

  23. #48
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    Default John Farson (spoilers)

    If this has been posted before, I'm sorry.
    What happens to John Farson? I have read all of the books, concordances, and comics ... have I missed something? If I'm obviously neglecting a specific storyline could you please tell me?
    Thank you.

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    I don't think his storyline is detailed in the books and I haven't read the comics so I cannot help you, sorry. But I do think we don't get much information about him from the books.

    Roland would have understood.

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    I don't think the comics cover Farson's ultimate fate either. I'll have a look later to check, but I'm sure I'd remember.

    I'm pretty sure he survived Jericho Hill, certainly. I suspect he didn't last long after, but that's just a hunch.

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