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Thread: Suzannah and the Chap storyline - love it or hate it? *spoilers*

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    Default Suzannah and the Chap storyline - love it or hate it? *spoilers*

    warning: DT7 spoilers inside!
    Spoiler:
    although I prefer happier endings, I could live with the ending of Roland being reset to the desert.

    Unfortunately the problem in these books, which prevents them from being the ultimate epos la "lord of the rings", is that the story became quite ludicrous with book 6.

    The whole idea to get a main character pregnant, and then with a demon-child was a bad choice, and SK f*cked it up completely by basically making the whole story-arch obsolete, because if you examine it closely, the whole Suzannah pregnant bullsh*t only resulted in a disgusting, but ultimately powerless CK child which totally failed to deliver anything but some gross reading.

    I got books 6+7 years ago, started to read, but always quit again, despite my longing to find out what happens next to the party. I even read the whole 13 books of "The Wheel Of Time" by Robert Jordan, until I finally decided to listen to the final 2 Tower books via the audiobook version.

    Ok, finally I decided to face the ludicrous Suzannah story again, and when I reached the part where the baby "gets faxed over to Mia", I was first totally confused. WTF? There are now suddenly 2 bodies, and Suzannah isn't giving birth? I had to listen to this part like 3 times because I wanted to read an explanation how the hell Suzannah split into 2 bodies again, one being the demon, and the other herself. Of course there is no "explanation" besides some funny hair-dryer machine on Suzannah's head.

    Ok, so now Mia gives birth and gets eaten. Pretty gross reading, and not quite after my liking, but anyway. Unfortunately this baby turned out to be just a weak clone of Gollum "good fish... Mordred is ah-hungry", who has a stupid daddy complex for quite a while and does nothing of any importance until Roland wastes him in a pretty unspectacular way.

    The "happy endling" for Jake, Suze, Oy, and Eddie in another dimension was total BS either. Who wants to see his heroes returned to a boring ordinary life? Not me.
    The part with the breakers and the assault was pretty good again.

    To sum it up: Stephen King had his hand on an epic story, but he screwed it up. Maybe he can fix it, by writing 2 alternate books 6+7, or at least write a book about Roland's adventures when he gets reset to the desert...

    So to reply to SK: I didn't fly through the story to reach the end, and I kinda like the ending, but the last 2 books were to the most part ridiculous crap any high school student could imagine a better story, and you ruined your Epos!
    Last edited by Darkthoughts; 08-27-2011 at 03:31 PM.

  2. #2
    Traveler horseshoe is on a distinguished road

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    well, the whole idea to have a girl without legs in this epic was a bad choice.
    Even SK got sick of his leg-less lady, so he gave her legs magically for book6.
    Unfortunately the whole Suze being pregnant story turned out to be utter rubbish.

    What I liked most about the Dark Tower was the setting in a post-apocalyptic world with broken down high-tech and cool Gunslingers, and the stories about Roland's earlier ka-tet (Wizard and Glas).

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    I am sorry to hear you didint like the last two novels!

    Whereas the whole Chap story wasnt my fav - I can see why it was needed though. From the start Roland is this awesome gunslinger who seems invincible. However, there is no feeling of peril, in this, because Roland seems like he could have just sauntered all the way to the Dark Tower blasting enemies out of his way with his supernatural speed with the gun.

    The way I see it, King needed to have an element of peril for Roland; be it the loss of his fingers, sanity (potentially), arthritus or the Chap in the latter novels.

    I think the specre of Mordred hanging over the tet was truly threatening.

    Although, you find the whole demon thing ludicrous but what about a talking train...

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    DT7 spoilers inside!
    Spoiler:
    If Mordred wouldn't have turned out to be a gross joke with a daddy complex, I might agree with you, but as SK has written it it turned out to be a catastrophy.
    The "showdown" at the campfire was a joke, he should have built up Mordred to a more powerful foe, then the whole annoying pregnancy/Mordred story would at least have had a thrilling ending.
    The sole achievement of Mordred was to eliminate a billybumbler? gimme a break.

    Maybe Mordred should have wasted Eddie, instead of this "bad luck sh*t happens" moment that ended Eddies life.



    A talking train with AI is perfectly reasonable.

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    please, everybody, mark the DT7 spoilers

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    The way I see it, King needed to have an element of peril for Roland; be it the loss of his fingers, sanity (potentially), arthritus or the Chap in the latter novels.
    But didn't we already have that with Walter? His ancient enemy, almost immortal (like Roland) lwho'd engineered so many of the pivotal moments of Roland's life (Susan, Jericho Hill, his mother's death, Jake's death). Did we really need to introduce a new character to ursurp Flagg/Walter's place? Especially one that was so poorly written?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delah View Post
    The way I see it, King needed to have an element of peril for Roland; be it the loss of his fingers, sanity (potentially), arthritus or the Chap in the latter novels.
    But didn't we already have that with Walter? His ancient enemy, almost immortal (like Roland) lwho'd engineered so many of the pivotal moments of Roland's life (Susan, Jericho Hill, his mother's death, Jake's death). Did we really need to introduce a new character to ursurp Flagg/Walter's place? Especially one that was so poorly written?
    Spoiler:
    I see your point. Hwv, Roland had managed to avoid Walter before. I thought his own son was more of a threat. Born of the line of Eld, more of a Gunslinger than Walter.

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    Mordred is quite possibly the worst thing King has ever done in his entire canon. I want to know what King was smoking when he thought Roland's final challenge before the Tower should be
    Spoiler:
    an emo spider with diarrhea over his eternal nemesis since the beginning of the series (and indeed, a nemesis that has been with King since the beginning of his career).
    That alone knocked down The Dark Tower over the pedestal I had once placed it on in my head.
    Last edited by Jean; 08-11-2010 at 11:19 AM. Reason: unmarked dt7 spoilers


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    as I said, please mark your DT7 spoilers

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    as I said, please mark your DT7 spoilers
    I edited the title of the thread (just to be on the save side) I hope this way the spoilers may not make any harm.

    Anyway,
    horseshoe, when you build up your opinion it's better face the fact that many big fans like the last two books as they are.
    For my part I cannot stand the part
    DT7 spoiler inside
    but it doesn't disturb me and the most important thing is it doesn't ruin the book for me. And the fact that many DT junkies love that part makes me accept the decision of the Wordslinger.

    Roland would have understood.

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    When i read the first 4 books (Especially 2 + 3), i thought the Dark Tower is going to be one of my all time favorites like the Lord of the Rings. It was an amazing story, a perfect mixture of western, science-fiction, romance and horror. As time went on, the novels started getting weird. Especially book 6 and 7 are really weird. (I do like book 6 more than book 5 though).

    Spoiler:
    Mordred... sucks. At least for me. I think there was no need for Mordred to exist in the novels at all. Books 5 + 6 deal with Susannahs pregnancy - And when Mordred is finally born, he does nothing but spy the ka-tet, bring some gore in the story and kill a billy bumbler. I mean - seriously?

    And i still dont understand why King decided to get Flagg killed by spider boy. The man in black was one of best enemies ive ever seen- And than, when we finally get to see him again, Mordred kills him in like 2 pages.


    I have to say, i am kinda angry with King. Im re-reading DT7 right now, and if there wherent that many little things that annoy me (Like the Mordred stuff. But the 19/99 and King himself are really annoying, too.), the book would be awesome. Im even okay with the way

    Spoiler:
    Eddie dies.


    But, sadly, i think King ruined his story.

    (I do love the first 4 books though.)

  12. #12
    Traveler horseshoe is on a distinguished road

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    sure the books are still enjoyable.
    I'm just disappointed that King failed to achieve something as epic as "the lord of the rings" or "the wheel of time" - mainly because the Susannah-Mia-Mordred arch was so damn weak.

    The setting of the books is awesome. One of the best ever. I just love the Mix of Western with broken down high-tech. The ending was quite ok too. I'm only mad that he wasted so much space in his final 2 books with crappy stories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by horseshoe View Post
    sure the books are still enjoyable.
    I'm just disappointed that King failed to achieve something as epic as "the lord of the rings" or "the wheel of time" - mainly because the Susannah-Mia-Mordred arch was so damn weak.
    Hey, check out this thread here and the poll inside:
    http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/...?t=376&page=34

    But here is the result of the poll if you don't wanna click:
    5 - completely satisfied 43.00%
    4 - satisfied, but have some minor problems with the ending 34.78%
    3 - satisfied, but have some major problems with the ending 10.14%
    2 - not satisfied, although there are things I liked about the ending 9.66%
    1 - completely dissatisfied 2.42%

    So... 78% of the people are satisfied.
    It's okay to see that King has ruined the books for you (I am really sorry about that) but to say he failed... it's simply not true.

    Roland would have understood.

  14. #14
    Eli CyberGhostface is a name known to all CyberGhostface is a name known to all CyberGhostface is a name known to all CyberGhostface is a name known to all CyberGhostface is a name known to all CyberGhostface is a name known to all CyberGhostface's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    It's okay to see that King has ruined the books for you (I am really sorry about that) but to say he failed... it's simply not true.
    Whether or not King succeeded is very much a subjective thing. Just because so many people hold a certain opinion does not make it objectively true. For example, The Shining is considered one of the best horror films ever made. I think it's a disaster. Is that opinion "simply not true" because I hold the opinion of a minority?


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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberGhostface View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    It's okay to see that King has ruined the books for you (I am really sorry about that) but to say he failed... it's simply not true.
    Whether or not King succeeded is very much a subjective thing.
    I couldn't agree more.

    Is that opinion "simply not true" because I hold the opinion of a minority?
    It's just my opinion, no more no less.
    I don't think King could have written an ending everyone would have been happy with. And the fact that it's the most complex and complicated series in the history (my opinion again) the fact that still 78% of the fans are satisfied gives me the courage to say he didn't fail.
    It's just my opinion, no more no less.

    Roland would have understood.

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    Besides, what that is, is 78% of the people who came here and voted. I see what you're saying, Letti, but I think that we can only say that it's not really proven that he failed or proven that he did not fail. Of course, I am not sure even that enduring popularity of LotR proves that that series is truly great. Yeah, pretty subjective.

    I know a lot of readers didn't like Mordred, and I can understand that. It's not hard for me to imagine that being better developed. However, for why SK included him at all, I think it's fairly clear that it goes back to the ring in DT3... and thereby back to the whole storyline of the boy Jake. I honestly believe that if he hadn't followed up at all on that set of issues, more central to TDT than issues of what is beloved in other works, then that would have been even more anti-climactic, on a level which could not ultimately be covered up.

  17. #17
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    I think Susannah's pregnancy should have been an issue,
    Spoiler:
    but to retcon it into being Roland's son and then having him as the main antagonist of the final book of the series by replacing one of King's oldest major villains was a very bad move on King's part.


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    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    Besides, what that is, is 78% of the people who came here and voted. I see what you're saying, Letti, but I think that we can only say that it's not really proven that he failed or proven that he did not fail.
    Well, I must agree with you. The best is if we can see and understand both sides.

    My intention was to let horseshoe know that the way I see it only the future can tell of this series gets lost among the other books or it gets high and one day will be taught in high school.

    Roland would have understood.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    My intention was to let horseshoe know that the way I see it only the future can tell of this series gets lost among the other books or it gets high and one day will be taught in high school.
    If Harry Potter gets taught in High School, anything can happen.

    The Dark Tower wont get lost for sure, all I said was that King did not deliver a highly thrilling finale - the last 2 books very so lala, mostly because of the Susanna/chap/Mordred stuff.

    In LOTR you have a buildup to a massive battle at the end.
    In "the Wheel of Time" you will also have this. (new book comes out this November!)
    In The Dark Tower you have a disgusting spider crapping his pants with daddy issues, and a crimson king who gets erased by a weirdo.

    The first 5 books are great, the 2 final ones pretty weak. That's why I say he screwed up to create a perfect epic Saga.
    Maybe he'll deliver something in the future to fix it. I'd love to read more about Roland, past and future. (and about Midworld)

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by horseshoe View Post
    In LOTR you have a buildup to a massive battle at the end.
    That's the main reason why a lot of people are disappointed with the last books. King "failed" to deliver what they had expected. Instead of accepting the book as it is, with its unexpected turns and unpredicted development, too many readers want King to be just like everybody else, and to come up to existing expectations, to explore the explored. How about maybe he ventured beyond expectations? I argued many a time that there never was supposed to be any epic battle, western-style showdown or any other tired crap of the kind; The Dark Tower is a different book that doesn't have to conform to any genre tradition, not even in order to please the majority.

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  21. #21
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    Maybe that's why I was happy with the ending. I am not fond of big (200 pages or more) battles.

    Roland would have understood.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    King "failed" to deliver what they had expected. Instead of accepting the book as it is, with its unexpected turns and unpredicted development, too many readers want King to be just like everybody else, and to come up to existing expectations, to explore the explored.
    You constantly refuse to see my point.
    I did not want him deliver something "expected", just something - anything to keep the story on a high level, to bring at least "unexpected" turns that don't make me roll my eyes or bore me.

    You basically say that people who criticize anything in the story are literal intellectual babies.
    Whatever, maybe I am just sad because the story ended. I think I did not want Roland to reach the tower just yet, I wanted more of the journey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by horseshoe View Post
    In LOTR you have a buildup to a massive battle at the end.
    That's the main reason why a lot of people are disappointed with the last books. King "failed" to deliver what they had expected. Instead of accepting the book as it is, with its unexpected turns and unpredicted development, too many readers want King to be just like everybody else, and to come up to existing expectations, to explore the explored. How about maybe he ventured beyond expectations? I argued many a time that there never was supposed to be any epic battle, western-style showdown or any other tired crap of the kind; The Dark Tower is a different book that doesn't have to conform to any genre tradition, not even in order to please the majority.
    I really agree with this . For me an epic battle could have ended up pretty lame. I ecpected it to happen and I was glad it didint because it seemed like a tired idea to me too. If there wqs a battle it might not hav pleased everyone as well. Some people might havbe thought the battle was not good enough or exciting enough etc to end the book.

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    Traveler horseshoe is on a distinguished road

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    I didnt say or mean that I wanted an epic battle. I just used LOTR as an example for a long story where the last third does not get boring (like the Mordred stuff).
    Mordred as the son of Roland (and the CK however) was promising, but ultimately turned out to be more annoying. Nearly seems that Stephen wanted to end if for good too quickly.

    Also I used Wheel of time , because it has the same motive the dark tower is based on, hence the title.

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    Fucking hate how that call the damned kid "chap". It makes it as if they're referring to a horrid blister on her crippled ass.

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