There Ought to be a Law

[Jean]

Yes, we tsk-tsk and shake our heads. This is the very point: there are things that can be legally regulated, and there are things that can't. It ultimately depends on the system of values, and on how much people want to integrate: what is universally considered comme il faut, and how desirable it is for a person to follow it. There's no other way to make people behave themselves. If it pays to be nice, people will tend to be nice. If it doesn't - if their reference group thinks that swearing in front of kids is cool, and it's their reference group that provides guidelines for society - no number of arrests, finings, etc will change anything, except deepen the abyss between those few (and fewer) who want to be nice and those many (and growing in number) who bully them around. If we want to break this tendency, society should learn to use subtler mechanisms.

[Bethany]

You cannot legislate morality.
I wish my lawmakers would realize this.

[RainInSpain]

You cannot legislate morality.
I wish my lawmakers would realize this.

I agree - but then we need to have a clear distinction between what we consider strictly moral issues vs. what can be legislated. Why touching my breasts without my consent can be against the law, while saying "f*cking c*nt" in my presence can not? There is no physical harm done in either case, only moral suffering.

Yes, we tsk-tsk and shake our heads. This is the very point: there are things that can be legally regulated, and there are things that can't. It ultimately depends on the system of values, and on how much people want to integrate: what is universally considered comme il faut, and how desirable it is for a person to follow it. There's no other way to make people behave themselves. If it pays to be nice, people will tend to be nice. If it doesn't - if their reference group thinks that swearing in front of kids is cool, and it's their reference group that provides guidelines for society - no number of arrests, finings, etc will change anything, except deepen the abyss between those few (and fewer) who want to be nice and those many (and growing in number) who bully them around. If we want to break this tendency, society should learn to use subtler mechanisms.

Well, you're diving people in two groups: (1) those who have the responsibility and decency to behave properly, and (2) those who do not - these two groups will behave in accordance with their inner morality, or a lack thereof, regardless of the environment. I feel that these are two "extremes", so to speak, and there is a much larger intermediate group between them, who would benefit from setting certain boundaries. Oh, this reminds me of that well-known effect and experiment (jeez, can't remember what it's called) - spread some litter on the street and draw graffiti on the walls, and everything on that street will go downhill, i.e. soon you will have broken windows, vandalized cars, etc. To me, swearing in public is another element in that row.
How do we, as a society, come to consider something comme il faut or not? What are those subtler mechanisms and why do you think they can be efficient against the "bullies" who outnumber the "decent" people? Oh, and what those "decent" people are supposed to do until the society reaches that stage? I mean, you and I can very well observe that, left to their own devices, masses of people tend to spiral all the way down - it's as if it is natural for humans to cluster together at the lowest possible denominator.

[Jean]

::sigh::
yes, wife, you're right too...
(from an old Jewish joke)

you know, you are talking about immediate causes/effect process, and I am sure no result, or only very uncertain result - with immense possibility of backlash - can be achieved in this way. What I mean is reversing the roles. What we had for decades was unnatural and suicidal for society, but things will change for better as soon as priorities change, from immediate grab-and-run to forming normal capitalist relationships. We need bourgeoisie, and bourgeois values, and we need them to triumph, however unpleasant they are for bohemians like bears. An easy example is how much safer you feel in any Western country than in Russia: even in the districts all residents of which complain nonstop about the rate of crime, the odds that you'll be mugged, robbed, or have your possessions stolen, are beyond compare lower than in Russia. Because only hopeless junkies will risk their social status for the miserable contents of your purse. Behavior is a function of status. People who have nothing to lose behave differently from those who have worked hard to get what they have, and thus have everything to lose.

[RainInSpain]

I understand what you're saying, and I'm hoping it will eventually work out for our country, too, despite the oft-cited "special way" of Russia. Forgive me for this quote in Russian, but lately it's been a favorite of mine: "Вот только жить в эту пору прекрасную уж не придется ни мне, ни тебе." (Nekrasov)
Right now I am extremely pessimistic about any possibility for priorities to change in any foreseeable future (and no way for someone like me to do something about it). I feel that what we have now is even more suicidal - not just for society as a whole but for very real individuals. What we do not have is clear rules, applicable to all, that do not change and aren't bent at a whim of the powers-that-be or whoever else. No society, no business, and no individual can have any prospects for development in such circumstances, so it's strictly 'survival of the fittest', with 'fittest' in this case meaning those with the lowest morals. It's an upside down world ::sigh::

/end rant

On a lighter note, an impression from today's lunch (all said in jest): I wish I could legislate sloppy eating - it's a wonder what kind of sounds some people can make simply by eating soup

[Jean]

agree with every word

a very apt Nekrasov quote indeed. I am beginning to wonder if the fact that I've never thought of it in all those years reflects my innate optimism, or my acquired pessimism (like, there's gonna be no "beautiful times" at all); afraid the latter, given all we have - which you described, alas, very accurately

[RainInSpain]

As for me, I am an optimist when it comes to small everyday things, and on a grander scale, I'm a pessimist, but what's worrying me is that I'm quickly becoming cynical and suspicious of everything. ::sigh::

[Jean]

::sigh::

[Jon]

*cleans up his yard*

[Yeah Sure Whatever]

My father and other people always told me that it is illegal to drive with flip-flops on in my state (PA) I always thought it was myth, but apparently it is true. I found out two years ago when I was waiting in line at a convenience store. Two state troopers came up to me and asked me if I was driving a car. I said yes.

They both got very angry at me a started yelling at me to take my flip-flops off and to put shoes on or drive barefoot! I just rolled my eyes at them. The state troopers started to tell me that it is very dangerous to wear flip-flops while driving a car.

The state troopers told me that the flip-flops could get stuck on the accelerator and people could get killed by an out of control car. Then they told me a story about how 5 people were killed in a parking lot in Florida because somebody was wearing flip-flops and lost control of their car. (They claimed the person was charged with vehicular homicide!) Well I don't want to kill anybody or break the law so I don't wear flip-flops while driving any more!

I heard about this a long time ago and use to drive barefoot instead of with flip flops on - However you cant hold the rest of us responsible because of the what FLORIDA does!

In regards to the "swearing" people need to get over it and stop trying to control others. If you're afraid your precious snowflakes are going to hear it and be "damaged" then you need to stick to your house or church. Do not infringe on my right of free speech because you dont like it. This is one of my biggest pet peeves. I have 5 children from ages 13 - 3 and have never cared about people swearing around them. Now if someone starts spewing racist shit or something that actually matters I'll remove my kids or talk to them about it afterwards. Guess what they're going to hear when they are in school and later in life? Yup get over it

[Iwritecode]

In regards to the "swearing" people need to get over it and stop trying to control others. If you're afraid your precious snowflakes are going to hear it and be "damaged" then you need to stick to your house or church. Do not infringe on my right of free speech because you dont like it. This is one of my biggest pet peeves. I have 5 children from ages 13 - 3 and have never cared about people swearing around them. Now if someone starts spewing racist shit or something that actually matters I'll remove my kids or talk to them about it afterwards. Guess what they're going to hear when they are in school and later in life? Yup get over it

I'm pretty sure my kids do it. I sure know I did when I was their age. Just never around my parents.

My wife talked to a guy at her work that was upset about his step-daughter using the word "crap". I asked her how old the kid was.

17.

[Yeah Sure Whatever]

My 11 year old and his friends swear like only true South American Soccer fans can, but my son can do it in both languages. He does it when they're playing soccer though so what are ya gonna do?

My 13 year old on the other hand wont say a swear word to save her life!

OMG those crappy 17 year old!