Roland: Enemy Of The White And Gan? *Spoilers for the whole series*

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Originally Posted by R_of_G

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Originally Posted by obscurejude

If Gan's nature is dualistic, then I think the tower is a perfect emodiment because it (the tower) is threatened and preserved continually.

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well somebody finally seems to get my "why Roland NEVER stops looping" interpretation of things. thanks Ryan!

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I personally think you made yourself very clear, as usual, making your point comprehensible and consistent, so I suspect you were understood, just probably not everyone agreed with your interpretation 100 per cent? My personal point of disagreement was that, while the Tower does need constant protection, it is done by different people every time, the human constituent being at least as important as the divine. (though if we develop it further, probably it should be in the thread where we started it.)

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Originally Posted by Jean

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Originally Posted by R_of_G

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Originally Posted by obscurejude

If Gan's nature is dualistic, then I think the tower is a perfect emodiment because it (the tower) is threatened and preserved continually.

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well somebody finally seems to get my "why Roland NEVER stops looping" interpretation of things. thanks Ryan!

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I personally think you made yourself very clear, as usual, making your point comprehensible and consistent, so I suspect you were understood, just probably not everyone agreed with your interpretation 100 per cent? My personal point of disagreement was that, while the Tower does need constant protection, it is done by different people every time, the human constituent being at least as important as the divine. (though if we develop it further, probably it should be in the thread where we started it.)

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thanks Jean/ i'm used to writing in a little longer form, so when i try to condense myself down to a paragraph or two i tend to think i lose something, but it's refreshing to know i don't in some cases.

I wouldn't mind reading anything in a "longer form" by you, either! http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k2...ear_wink-1.gif

thank you Jean, i shall try to elaborate more in future postings:unsure:

Roland was his own problem

Spoiler:

had he not damned his soul, he wouldn't be force to repeat the circle, thus the Tower would have been saved the first time

or all of existence would have unfolded.

Spoiler tags are not necessary in here

yes, very possible.

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Originally Posted by Storyslinger

Roland was his own problem

Spoiler:

had he not damned his soul, he wouldn't be force to repeat the circle, thus the Tower would have been saved the first time

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care to elaborate? do we know about the first time? what i mean is, do we have any idea of any events of previous loops? i guess my question is how do you believe he "damned his soul" on his first loop?

I always thought that the loop was the same as the one described in the series. Jake in the desert on up to reaching the tower. I feel that by not showing the care to take up the horn at Jerico, and by letting Jake drop(which I believe he does every time, he's damned), but depending on the actions that he preforms each loop, (loving and caring for ka-tet), he gets another piece that brings him closer to redemption.

fair enough, thanks for clarifying!

Not a problem, it was a little unclear to me, till I wrote it down

then i am glad i could help :lol:

That's certainly interesting Storyslinger. The only problem is that the Tower was already saved at Blue Haven (or so the consensus seems to be). That's why I posed it from Gan's perspective. The horn is the most ambiguous piece in the whole story in my opinion, and is really confusing. What if Roland was redeemed? Do you really think the cycles would stop? If Gan's existence is embodied in the tower, then reality would be absolutely contingent upon humanity (and particularly Roland). If I'm not making any sense, somebody ask me something specific.

Also along this same thread of thought. If Roland does save the Tower, does that mean that he saves Gan? Is that what is implied by redemption? The Tower is Gan, and its Gan who pushes him through the door after all. My head hurts, this might be a little heavy to attempt with a hangover. Still, I am interested to hear what you all have to say. Great thread Brice.

Thanks! :)

No, thank you sir. :thumbsup:

Great questions Ryan. My thoughts are... assuming the Tower as the physical embodiment of Gan, Roland isn't necessarily "saving" Gan, more than he maintaining order and balance. White can't entirely replace Red, nor vice versa, but if one gets the upper hand and "controls" the Tower than things are out of balance. As the World Axis, the Tower must remain equidistant between polar opposites [white and red as order and chaos in this case]. You can't have one without the other, but neither should be allowed to dominate. By "saving" the Tower I mean banishing the CK and Mordred from getting control of it this time through the loop. It's my belief that Roland represents the White in this necessarily constant struggle and that is why he loops, bc balance is attained but needs to be constantly maintained. It is not permanent.

I think thats the major idea behind it Jayson, though you and I seem to be in a minority. Still, what do we do with Roland's "redemption"? I only use the word because that is how SK presents it in the afterward of DT 7. Everyone always evaluates the whole cycle in regards to Roland. What I love about this thread is the opportunity to talk about it from Gan's perspective (or at least thats what we're doing right now).

Also, the "random" and the "purpose" seem to support our thesis as well. Although there are two doctors for the green team and only one for the red...

Thanks for the thoughts Jayson.

i suppose one could suggest that should Roland attain "redemption" than Gan could choose another to fulfill the role that Roland plays. even the Ck doesn't go back all the way to the beginning so there is grounds for their being some sort of rotation of mythical characters to maintain the balance between chaos and order.

Thats very interesting...Do you think the whole multiverse is inherent with that idea? i.e everyone continues a cycle until they are redeemed?

The idea also makes Gan seem harsh, but that perception of God is at least as old as Job, which historically pre-dates even Genesis.

very interesting indeed

In RCatholic terms, that would be interpreting the whole world (all worlds) as the purgatory; and I would prefer to differ between the two.

I still think redemption of this kind is for only a few; but redeeming themselves, they, simultaneously, constantly help redeem the rest of mankind - compare Christian saints; also monastic orders; it's not all that direct, of course, and requires more thinking over. In fact, I've always perceived Roland as a [potential, if not actual] saint, but never got around to developing it in clear categories.

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Originally Posted by R_of_G

i suppose one could suggest that should Roland attain "redemption" than Gan could choose another to fulfill the role that Roland plays.

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yes, very close to what I've been advocating all along... only not as much Gan's choice as the man's own

Jean again we essentially agree, we just have our own metaphors. to you a potential saint, to me a potential bodhisattva. i like to think of roland as the bodhisattva of infinite lead. he kills, it's what he does. what he needs to do is to accept it. it's his being, and in the moments he finds himself in, it's what needs to be done. that's all that can be asked of anyone is that they live in each moment bc that's where eternity is ["beyond" time as opposed to "after" time]. i'm getting rambly, but you always seem to get it.

ryan another great question. the answer i am unsure of. we do see with jake and callahan that death isn't always the end of the line, so perhaps it is a bit loopy for everyone. roland's story may be a bit different in that he "darkles and tincts" which i take as having something to do with his very being with respect to time. callahan and jake aren't like that, but clearly they are the same beings in their new times they were before. am i close?

Wow, great discussions going on in here! :thumbsup:

As close as can be expected Jayson (these are hard questions). Thank you for mulling it over and getting back to me.

Jean, thanks for what you said. I've always thought that King has some Catholic leanings, but authorial intent is a beast that is sometimes better left alone. It seems that a lot of his religious characters are shady if they are protestant and rather virtuous if catholic. As I'm sure you are aware of, there is some really interesting dialog between Callahan and all the characters about religion; particularly between him and Jake, and him and Roland. I've always thought the scene where Jake is given last rights before storming the Dixie Pig was very potent (and touching).

Alright, its really late where I am. I'm going to get some sleep. Great discussion indeed Monte.

I forgot one thing. Jean, while I agree to an extent about what you said concerning human agency, I do tend to see Gan as a harsh arbiter of things. I can't stop thinking about Roland crying out for mercy as he is pushed through the door at the end. While it could be argued that it is for the greater good, I still have problems with it. I really need to go to sleep. Good night folks.