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No one can enter the Dark Tower, apparently, unless they have a "Sigul of the Eld" but if they do, then they definitely can, no matter how evil they are, and have a chance to rule or destroy all of creation. Why is that? Is Gan dumb? The Tower automatically accepts fake ID? Why doesn't it just admit only those who come in the spirit of the Eld, and dispense with the symbolic tokens?
That's a good question Mike. :thumbsup:
My initial response stems from our discussion in the Insomnia/DT thread... Because of the chronological contrast of Browning's poem in that it recalls the Arthurian legends of the middle ages- King felt compelled to include it somehow. It worked thematically in the first of book of the series, but as they progress, putting tangible faces and details on the themes becomes increasingly difficult for King.
I think he was trying to appropriate excalibur, and your question about siguls recalls your statement about King initially biting off more than he could chew for the long haul.
This is the first thing that comes to mind for me.
It always amazes me that we still after all these years, find new subjects or ways to discuss things in this story. I have no memory that we have ever talked about this particular event. I would hazard to guess that free will enters into it somehow.
Maybe the tower only recognizes a sigul(?) and not intent.At this moment I can not think of any other possibilities, and so can't say with any certainty why this would be so.
Can the evil ones have the sigul? Is there evidence that anyone evil has ever been inside the Tower?
(Anyway, I think it matters about the same as the cross - a lot, in a word, but not in the sense magic objects do, or, on the other hand, keycards do)
I think he was referring to Mordred's foot, but I could be wrong Jean.
I probably have to reread the whole damn thing... somehow Mordred's foot doesn't sound sufficient... I mean, if RF had hoped he would enter the Tower with it, it only meant he didn't understand what God, faith, - and generally higher values, subtler entities - mean; which made him understand a sigul as a magical entity (ultimately, a keycard), while it is not. (Much the same way, Detta Walker thought Roland was so set on reaching his Dark Tower because it was full of diamonds.)
i think its because the dark tower is above good, evil and indifferent. its larger and more there than that. the sigul is an old sign of power which is why good and evil can enter but not your everyday joe.
thats just my thoughts tho, and i am leaning on this site that my thought are no longer safe as someone will come on after me and turn my whole thinking upside down.
and i love it
First of all for my part I don't think anyone can destroy the Tower. So even if someone evil enters it doesn't mean any harm. They don't have any chance to ruin the Tower.
Secondly I don't think of the Tower as a church.. or temple.. and even if it's a holy place evil can have the right to enter. Like murderers can hide in churches. So the fact that even evil souls can enter the Tower is quite natural to me. Sounds logical.
Moreover the word "evil" is... so flexible. Relative. In some sense Roland was evil too. Mordred was much more innocent than Roland. I could go on and give more examples.
Absolute good and absolute evil.. such things don't exist. So they cannot be the bricks of laws or rights.
Last but not least siguls have power. Incredibly big power. I don't know how to put this thing into words.. they can mean so much. We can see it in our world, too.
A flag
a sigul
a word.. they can move worlds and millions of people. Sometimes you can sum up tons of feelings and principles into one single sigul or sign.
So it sounds perfect (for me) that you can enter the Tower with a sigul. The fact that someone who doesn't deserve the sigul owns it cannot take away the power and the meaning of the sigul.
It's like... even if millions of cheaters and betrayers use the word "love" - love cannot lose its power. Its true meaning. It can change.. it can fade.. but it never vanishes.
just my two cents
Absolutely. The point is, however, that those cheaters can't do anything with the help of this word but, at most, break the hearts of the gullible. I mean, in the wrong hands siguls do not work as intended: precisely because without a loving heart, "love" is only a word, and it's someone's soul capable of loving that makes it alive and working.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letti
Much the same it is, I believe, with any other sigul - compare Callahan's miserable experience in 'Salem's Lot with his glorious departure in DT7.
I don't believe, either, that the Tower is indifferent to good and evil. I think it's the very essense of good and evil, relating to each other in a more complicated way than just "white over red", the slogan of the simple-minded gunslingers (the slogan is noble, though, I do not deny it). The Tower is dark, not light, and the rose is red, not white; the core of the existence should logically be the core of this dialectics, too. The Tower is the good and the evil, and as a manifestation of Gan it is the ultimate judge of human souls; you can't cheat it with a dozen feet chopped off dead werespiders.
(I know I am not very coherent today, but you know I've not been feeling very well. I hope to put it in better words next time http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k2.../0134-bear.gif)
feel better soon jean, i enjoy your debates:rose::rose::rose:
this gave me a thought.... what was there in the dark tower that could control or destroy all of creation?Quote:
Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle
I can only remember rooms which showed Roland his entire life but there wasn't a chance for him to do anything else in the dark tower... or?
The CK seemed to have gotten in, unless he just flew up to the balcony. I thought though that he did get in but then got stuck on the balcony when he went out to have a look and then he was just waiting for Mordred to come and help him out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
I largely agree with this assessment. I see the Tower as another in a long line of mythological representations of the World Axis. The Axis is the very symbol of transcendence of the pairs of opposites which make up the temporal world (concepts like good/evil, love/hate, death/life). These things and the duality they necessitate make up the temporal world, where the Axis represents that which is truly transcendent and beyond all category of description.Quote:
Originally Posted by candy
I think Letti put it very well with this...
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Originally Posted by Letti
This is great! :) Thanks for the responses. Sorry about the delay in getting back to this.I'm asking about any & all of the siguls referred to in the books. Roland's guns, Mordred's birthmark... and I think that the CK had a birthmark, too... although I'm having a little trouble finding a quote for that...Quote:
Originally Posted by obscurejude
I will definitely try to research the details. Did he have a sigul with him at that point? It'd be much appreciated if someone is able to give us more info from memory.Quote:
Originally Posted by R_of_GThe CK seemed to have gotten in, unless he just flew up to the balcony. I thought though that he did get in but then got stuck on the balcony when he went out to have a look and then he was just waiting for Mordred to come and help him out. ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
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Originally Posted by Mad Man
Yeah, the facts didn't seem to match the expectations. Tends to support what Jean said about how it might be just that RF didn't understand what he was talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letti
Possibly. If that was the only point, though, then it could just be open to anyone, right? :orely:Quote:
Originally Posted by alinda
Bad enough. :( Maybe something along those lines is symbolized in this plot device.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
Yeah, I know what you mean; I always enjoy having my eyes opened to additional insights. It's one of the real joys of discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by candy
Your thought is an interesting one. Perhaps power is a key value before the Dark Tower.hear, hear :rose:Quote:
Originally Posted by candy
I think the Tower has ways of protecting itself regardless of whether someone has a sigul or not. I think to gain utter power one would need to enter the top room, (and even then I'm not sure that's the prize that awaits one, although Walter obviously did.) and we know what happened to Roland when he did that. And then consider fate of the Crimson King. He entered the Tower, then went out on a balcony and the Tower trapped him there.Quote:
Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle
Sure, you could argue, what if he hadn't decided to investigate further? What if he had gone on? When you consider that the Tower is the author of Ka (I'm sure it is, it is the stabilizing force which brought order out of the Prim after all) 'what if' becomes irrelevant. It was ka for the CK to go onto the Balcony and be dealt with by Patrick Danville and Roland. And therefore it was, in a sense, an orchestration of the Tower.
The way I understand it, the Tower itself and the beams is what keeps creation stable. It keeps the worlds cohesive. I tend to think of the beams as being like a mesh wrapped around the world(s) keeping it all together and consistent, all joined by the Tower. That might be rather simplistic though, and there's probably more to it than that, but remember how when the beams weakened and broke, time went soft. Space would stretch, and even tear (the thinnies,.) As to anything IN the Tower giving it it's power, Roland does speculate that the Tower is maybe the body of Gan himself. Gan the creator.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Manthis gave me a thought.... what was there in the dark tower that could control or destroy all of creation?Quote:
Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle
The Tower IS the body of Gan. It's the metaphysical manifestation of Gan in Roland's plane of existence.
That's the suggestion in the last book certainly, although I don't think it's stated as definite. (I don't disagree with you though.)
The comics stateSpoiler:
Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle
How I wish I were in grad school again and could write a 20 page paper on this!! :-)