Roland: Enemy Of The White And Gan? *Spoilers for the whole series*

I think the title of this thread is the best I have ever seen so far. :)

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Originally Posted by razz

funny, that pinks haired thing sitting on top of my computer said the same thing. sorry, i have to grab my medication. back in a few :P

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Just a guess...it is Ritalin isn't it? :P

Thank you Letti. :wub:

don't thinks so. I'm not alowed dirsct access to the pills. i have to get them from a parent (remember, i'm 17) and apparently reading the bottle will not only counter the effects of the drug, but cause my mind to rise to a higher level than humanity. But it starts with an K

You don't even know what your taking? :orely: I'd HAVE to know ...17 or otherwise. :scared: I mean I understand them wanting to dole them out to you, but I see no harm in reading the bottle. :unsure:

i used to take ritalin, but it made the voices go away. and bad things happen when the voices go away. I currently refer to the 8th grade science fair
http://philip9876.files.wordpress.co...-explosion.jpg
I was sooo pretty

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Originally Posted by razz

i can't i suffer from chronic DT thread laziness. I hear it's contagious

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Then please resist the urge to quote, bump threads, and derail them. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Jean

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Originally Posted by R_of_G

Jean again we essentially agree, we just have our own metaphors. to you a potential saint, to me a potential bodhisattva. i like to think of roland as the bodhisattva of infinite lead. he kills, it's what he does. what he needs to do is to accept it. it's his being, and in the moments he finds himself in, it's what needs to be done. that's all that can be asked of anyone is that they live in each moment bc that's where eternity is ["beyond" time as opposed to "after" time]. i'm getting rambly, but you always seem to get it.

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not as much metaphors as the angles of interpretations; could be pretty literal. The difference (Christian saint vs. bodhisattva of infinite lead) would of course explain why I want to see the personal quest of one man as finite and you as eternal.

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Originally Posted by obscurejude

Jean, thanks for what you said. I've always thought that King has some Catholic leanings, but authorial intent is a beast that is sometimes better left alone. It seems that a lot of his religious characters are shady if they are protestant and rather virtuous if catholic. As I'm sure you are aware of, there is some really interesting dialog between Callahan and all the characters about religion; particularly between him and Jake, and him and Roland. I've always thought the scene where Jake is given last rights before storming the Dixie Pig was very potent (and touching).

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that point about authorial intent is one of my idees fixes... namely, that what author intended or meant or implied doesn't matter at all, it's only what the reader has to do with that counts; so my consistently Catholic interpretation of TDT isn't something I could think he meant, but something I, as a reader, see in what he wrote - or read into what he wrote, which wouldn't change the final outcome in the least. (although I agree, King does show some sympathy for Catholics; more than for some protestant denominations anyway)

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Originally Posted by obscurejude

I forgot one thing. Jean, while I agree to an extent about what you said concerning human agency, I do tend to see Gan as a harsh arbiter of things. I can't stop thinking about Roland crying out for mercy as he is pushed through the door at the end. While it could be argued that it is for the greater good, I still have problems with it. I really need to go to sleep. Good night folks.

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Free will vs. God's will - or, in other interpretations, fate or [any modification of] ka, - is a great subject! would love to take it up with you somewhere, but surely not in this thread? Frankly, I am not sure we're still on topic... http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k2.../0134-bear.gif

(only one thing now: Jesus, too, prayed for the cup to be taken away from him)

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This is quoted in an attempt to undo what Razz did by unnecessarily interrupting a very good conversation. Remember that scene at the end of the Last Samurai- the highest compliment you could pay a person, well, Razz never has to worry about hearing "I have enjoyed our conversations."

Obscure*: thank you for getting it back to topic. Razz: I would strongly recommend reading first, and posting next; that seems to be the established procedure.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k2...tion/thaku.gif

*and yes, I have enjoyed our conversations...

Thanks for the bump, Ryan.

I find the observation on King's portrayal of protestant verses Catholic characters very interesting. I would say, however, that it's a particular brand of protestantism that comes off bad - the evangelical protestants. Mother Abigail, for example, was certainly a sympathetic character. Perhaps he leans toward and/or appears to favor Catholicism more because of the penance/forgiveness aspect of the faith.

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Originally Posted by R_of_G
Great questions Ryan. My thoughts are... assuming the Tower as the physical embodiment of Gan, Roland isn't necessarily "saving" Gan, more than he maintaining order and balance. White can't entirely replace Red, nor vice versa, but if one gets the upper hand and "controls" the Tower than things are out of balance. As the World Axis, the Tower must remain equidistant between polar opposites [white and red as order and chaos in this case]. You can't have one without the other, but neither should be allowed to dominate. By "saving" the Tower I mean banishing the CK and Mordred from getting control of it this time through the loop. It's my belief that Roland represents the White in this necessarily constant struggle and that is why he loops, bc balance is attained but needs to be constantly maintained. It is not permanent.

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Interesting. Of course if this is an eternal struggle, the next natural question is who or what was keeping the balance before Roland was born? Was it even in peril before Roland's birth? Was there another called to save the Tower? We don’t see or hear evidence of this in Roland’s story, but is that by design? As another asked earlier: will there be another White pawn (for he does seem to be a pawn in this interpretation) after Roland achieves salvation?

Since we know the Tower is saved when Blue Heaven falls, Roland’s continuing to the Tower and dogged determination to climb it, to reach Gan (or his placing the reaching of the Tower above human life), could be compared to the builders of the Tower of Babel and their attempt to reach God (or their placing the building of their great tower above human life). Thus, Roland being cast back into a loop at the end could be paralleled to the splitting of tongues the Babel builders received.

I hope that made sense. It's just my early morning first cup of coffee thoughts*.

*I don’t often get a chance to give these things the thought they need for good replies.

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Originally Posted by Woofer

Since we know the Tower is saved when Blue Heaven falls, Roland’s continuing to the Tower and dogged determination to climb it, to reach Gan (or his placing the reaching of the Tower above human life), could be compared to the builders of the Tower of Babel and their attempt to reach God (or their placing the building of their great tower above human life). Thus, Roland being cast back into a loop at the end could be paralleled to the splitting of tongues the Babel builders received.

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I still remain unconvinced that the Tower was saved after Blue Heaven. The Beam was made safe. This made the Tower safer in the short term, but the CK was still around and Mordred was on his way to the Tower. If Mordred reached the Tower before Roland, or if he managed to kill Roland than he and the CK could have entered the Tower together and I don't see that as being a beneficial thing for the Tower.

GAH! R_of_G you are 100% correct. There we see my assumption that the Tower is saved when the Beam is made safe.

You could be right Woofer. My theory is just that, a theory. There's really no evidence either way. It's all speculation, which is what makes Dt so much fun. :)

i don't think the tower was saved or made safer. the beam was saved, yes. sheemie practically shouted blue heaven down telling them all that "the beam says thankya" and that it would be fine and could be healed. but neither he (sheemie) nor it (in its boy guise) said anything about the tower being safe or saved.

with mordred on his/its way there, the crimson king hanging out (and i use that term loosely, only out of disdain) on a balcony, and all the perils still in the way (ex. dandelo) i think the tower was still in danger.

in fact, i think it's possible that the tower will remain in danger until roland finally gets it right. and i mean really gets it right. all of it, not just most of it. has the horn, has the guns of his father, has his complete ka-tet. has all the pieces he needs to complete the journey the way it was meant to be completed. he's learning bits and pieces and i think it's possible that important bits and pieces stay with him, but until he gets it right all the way the tower is in danger. just as the beam was in danger until blue heaven was brought down.

but i don't think this makes him an enemy of the white any more than it would make walter an agent of the white. he chose his side long ago, he made a conscious decision to stand and be true and i think he's made some bad decisions but i don't think he's ever wavered from his first decision to stand for the tower. i think the real question is (or should be) is gan the white? or is it more nebulous than that.

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Originally Posted by turtlesong

i think the real question is (or should be) is gan the white? or is it more nebulous than that.

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i'd say Gan is not just the White, but the White and the Red, the Random and the Purpose, and everything else.

oh yes, or else we would be stuck with some half-assed Manicheanism

(that's one of the reasons why the Tower is Dark, and the rose red - neither of them white)

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Originally Posted by Jean

(that's one of the reasons why the Tower is Dark, and the rose red - neither of them white)

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I'd never thought of the symbolism of the colors like that but it makes perfect sense now that you mention it. Such a wise bear you are.

Brilliant, jean.

If the White means civilization and purpose as opposed to the destructive insanity of the Red, then I'd say that Roland has less trouble with it than Gan does. If Gan has been punishing Roland for losing fellowship, for placing his work ahead of being kind to people, then why doesn't Gan do so? Is Gan intelligent, or just a magical object? Why not speak?

I believe Gan would not speak because Roland was not yet ready to take his/her/its place in the Tower. Mayhaps the Horn of Eld will reconstruct the Tower in Rolands's image. Did'nt the Roses make a 'Horn' type sound at the end of DT book 7? If Roland took ownership of the Tower, would the current Reality become the new 'Prim' and a new Tower spews forth? Is that why the beasts of the Prim want to destroy the Beams? Turning the great wheel of Ka backwards instead of forwards? :ninja:

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Originally Posted by Othexttic

It is remarkable, rather amusing piece

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If you are not a spammer, please post something sensible within 48 hours.

Unless you do, you will be bearmauled.

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Originally Posted by Jean

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Originally Posted by Othexttic

It is remarkable, rather amusing piece

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If you are not a spammer, please post something sensible within 48 hours.

Unless you do, you will be bearmauled.

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Best of luck with that, Jean!!! LOL

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Originally Posted by Woofer

Thanks for the bump, Ryan.

I find the observation on King's portrayal of protestant verses Catholic characters very interesting. I would say, however, that it's a particular brand of protestantism that comes off bad - the evangelical protestants. Mother Abigail, for example, was certainly a sympathetic character. Perhaps he leans toward and/or appears to favor Catholicism more because of the penance/forgiveness aspect of the faith.

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Originally Posted by R_of_G
Great questions Ryan. My thoughts are... assuming the Tower as the physical embodiment of Gan, Roland isn't necessarily "saving" Gan, more than he maintaining order and balance. White can't entirely replace Red, nor vice versa, but if one gets the upper hand and "controls" the Tower than things are out of balance. As the World Axis, the Tower must remain equidistant between polar opposites [white and red as order and chaos in this case]. You can't have one without the other, but neither should be allowed to dominate. By "saving" the Tower I mean banishing the CK and Mordred from getting control of it this time through the loop. It's my belief that Roland represents the White in this necessarily constant struggle and that is why he loops, bc balance is attained but needs to be constantly maintained. It is not permanent.

---

Interesting. Of course if this is an eternal struggle, the next natural question is who or what was keeping the balance before Roland was born? Was it even in peril before Roland's birth? Was there another called to save the Tower? We don’t see or hear evidence of this in Roland’s story, but is that by design? As another asked earlier: will there be another White pawn (for he does seem to be a pawn in this interpretation) after Roland achieves salvation?

Since we know the Tower is saved when Blue Heaven falls, Roland’s continuing to the Tower and dogged determination to climb it, to reach Gan (or his placing the reaching of the Tower above human life), could be compared to the builders of the Tower of Babel and their attempt to reach God (or their placing the building of their great tower above human life). Thus, Roland being cast back into a loop at the end could be paralleled to the splitting of tongues the Babel builders received.

I hope that made sense. It's just my early morning first cup of coffee thoughts*.

*I don’t often get a chance to give these things the thought they need for good replies.

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there has been others that have taken this quest. If you read the last book TWTTK it states that Tim Ross, a boy that becomes a gunslinger that is not from Gilead takes the journey to The Dark Tower. Although it does not say what he goes through he is one of the earlier ones to take the trip.