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View Full Version : Jericho Hill - who betrayed the gunslingers? *spoilers*



varyar
10-25-2009, 04:20 AM
Hi, folks. Long time reader, first time poster, as they might say.

Anyhoo. I was rereading Roland's flashback to the battle (one of my favorite passages in the book and the whole series, for that matter), and something popped out at me again:


"Roland!" he cries. "We've been betrayed! We're outnumbered! Our backs are to the sea! We've got em right where we want em! Shall we charge?"

And Roland understands he is right. If their quest for the Dark Tower is really to end here on Jericho Hill -- betrayed by one of their own and then overwhelmed by this barbaric remnant of John Farson's army -- then let it end splendidly.

So... who was the traitor? It wasn't Alain or Jamie, unless Roland was doing some seriously selective remembering earlier in the flashback. Thomas Whitman is the only other gunslinger we know by name. Was it him? Why? Or was it Sheemie, inadvertantly causing disaster? Theories? Speculation?

Brice
10-25-2009, 07:17 AM
Hmm. I don't know. Sometimes circumstances can betray instead of people.

jayson
10-25-2009, 07:25 AM
firstly, welcome to the site varyar. :)

brice, um, i mean Cthulhu (;)), makes an excellent point. betrayal can take many forms.

but if we are speculating about a betrayal by a gunslinger, while there are only a handful of gunslingers whose names we know, it could have easily been one of the many others.

it's been a while since i last re-read wolves, so correct me if i'm wrong, but does not roland mention something about there having been something like 100 of them initially at jericho hill? subtract alain, jamie and thomas and that still leaves 97 possible traitors. :orely:

Brice
10-25-2009, 07:27 AM
I'd correct you if you were wrong, but I'm pretty damn sure you're right. :)

jayson
10-25-2009, 07:29 AM
I'd correct you if you were wrong, but I'm pretty damn sure you're right. :)

thanks. i suspect monte or matthew could quote the passage directly, but i definitely recall the word "hundred" being in there.

Brice
10-25-2009, 07:30 AM
Between the two of them they could probably quote the book from memory. :lol:

Jean
10-25-2009, 09:04 AM
At the shore end of the pier, for perhaps a minute, Dick held his own with a handful; one or two were wounded upon either side; steel crossed steel; nor had there been the least signal of advantage, when in the twinkling of an eye the tide turned against the party from the ship. Someone cried out that all was lost; the men were in the very humour to lend an ear to a discomfortable counsel; the cry was taken up. "On board, lads, for your lives!" cried another. A third, with the true instinct of the coward, raised that inevitable report on all retreats: "We are betrayed!"
(R.L.Stevenson. The Black Arrow)

I am not saying there were cowards between those on Jericho Hill - but the "inevitable report" part rings very true to me.

Letti
10-25-2009, 09:53 AM
Hi, folks. Long time reader, first time poster, as they might say.

Anyhoo. I was rereading Roland's flashback to the battle (one of my favorite passages in the book and the whole series, for that matter), and something popped out at me again:


"Roland!" he cries. "We've been betrayed! We're outnumbered! Our backs are to the sea! We've got em right where we want em! Shall we charge?"

And Roland understands he is right. If their quest for the Dark Tower is really to end here on Jericho Hill -- betrayed by one of their own and then overwhelmed by this barbaric remnant of John Farson's army -- then let it end splendidly.

So... who was the traitor? It wasn't Alain or Jamie, unless Roland was doing some seriously selective remembering earlier in the flashback. Thomas Whitman is the only other gunslinger we know by name. Was it him? Why? Or was it Sheemie, inadvertantly causing disaster? Theories? Speculation?

I don't know (we don't know) who betrayed the gunslingers but I think if the traitor had been one of Roland's old friends or pals he would have named them.
Anyway definitely not Sheemie.

Myste
10-25-2009, 10:32 AM
^ I agree that one completely!

varyar
10-25-2009, 12:01 PM
I don't know (we don't know) who betrayed the gunslingers but I think if the traitor had been one of Roland's old friends or pals he would have named them.
Anyway definitely not Sheemie.

Shoulda made it clearer (like, at all clear) that I meant Sheemie would have inadvertently betrayed the gunslingers. Poor kid never would've done it on purpose, but he could be tricked into it.

As for the other gunslingers, IIRC, there were only a dozen or so students left at the end, plus whatever adult gunslingers survived the fall of Gilead itself.

Before the last three books, I would have pegged Alain as the traitor, since we didn't know what circumstances lead to Roland and Cuthbert blowing him away, just that they did. I'm glad for that clarification, at least, since I liked Alain.

flaggwalkstheline
10-25-2009, 04:47 PM
I don't know (we don't know) who betrayed the gunslingers but I think if the traitor had been one of Roland's old friends or pals he would have named them.
Anyway definitely not Sheemie.

Shoulda made it clearer (like, at all clear) that I meant Sheemie would have inadvertently betrayed the gunslingers. Poor kid never would've done it on purpose, but he could be tricked into it.

As for the other gunslingers, IIRC, there were only a dozen or so students left at the end, plus whatever adult gunslingers survived the fall of Gilead itself.

Before the last three books, I would have pegged Alain as the traitor, since we didn't know what circumstances lead to Roland and Cuthbert blowing him away, just that they did. I'm glad for that clarification, at least, since I liked Alain.

I was under the impression that roland and cuthbert betrayed alain by shooting him in a moment of friendly fire panic when they werent sure who was there...

pol
10-25-2009, 06:45 PM
****DT 7 Spoilers included****


This is a thread that hits close to home....I just read this in a recent re-read of WOTC, just yesterday in fact.

Not much has been said about these events in the series, and the bit about a betrayal makes its brief mention all the more interesting. As it has been pointed out this can be taken a number of ways...inadvertently Sheemie...another Gunslinger...Circumstance...but one that I have always thought about which hasn't been mentioned is Roland himself. Throughout the series (at least the loop we are privy too) Roland has played the role of traitor many times and on many levels....he even admits it in W&G when speaking to Eddie about the dream with the bulldozer in the vacant lot:

.....Still Eddie hesitated. "You'd never betray us, would you, Roland?"
"No man can say that for sure, Eddie, and I have already played the betrayer more
than once. To my shame. But ... I think those days are over.....

Hard to say what this means...does it relate to Jake, Susan, Alain...a combination thereof and/or possibly other events. It seems unlikely that Roland would ever consciously betray the Quest for the Tower...at least not in the loop we see...but what if...perhaps he could have been tricked (thinking of Rhea)? Roland is a very tragic character and one that seems to be learning more and more as he loops. This could potentially allude to why he did not pick up the Horn from Cuthbert at Jericho Hill...and why perhaps he now has the Horn at the end of DTVII.

Obviously there is no hard evidence to support this (that I know of) but I think that on some level this possibility could be considered.

jayson
10-25-2009, 07:26 PM
pol, it's an interesting point you raise and surely roland has played the betrayer of his companions before when he thought he was doing the right thing (the most obvious example seems to be jake under the mountains)

however, with respect to jericho hill, i re-read that section earlier today because of this thread.

it is cuthbert who says they were betrayed and roland who thinks "betrayed by one of their own."

that seems an extremely odd thing for roland to think if he was the one who did the betraying, unless he likes to talk about himself in the third person

"george is getting upset!"

Letti
10-25-2009, 11:42 PM
It couldn't have been Roland. Okay, Roland is not a saint that's sure but he isn't such a cheap gutless traitor, either. He wouldn't have been able to look into Cuthbert's eyes anymore.

Jean
10-26-2009, 12:23 AM
Roland being the traitor at Jericho Hill would give the whole saga such a new unexpected turn I personally am at present not ready to consider...

Letti
10-26-2009, 12:30 AM
Roland being the traitor at Jericho Hill would give the whole saga such a new unexpected turn I personally am at present not ready to consider...

For me it's simply a NO WAY..

pol
10-26-2009, 08:59 AM
I'm glad my comments have yielded some discussion....

lux your point is well taken and it is one that I raised as well when reading that segment. In my post I indicated that Roland would likely never consciously betray his quest or his friends (although he certainly does to Jake at one point)....but on another level I think this is certainly within the realm of possibility...perhaps without even knowing what he has done, hence his statement "betrayed by one of their own." It also begs the question why didn't he grab the horn...in the todash sequence it is stated that he "will forget all about Eld's Horn"...to me that just seems odd...this horn apppears to have quite a monumental role and it's just forgotten (also Roland doesn't seem like the type to just forget something)...also, just how in the blazes does Roland get out of there...where Grissom and his men are advancing on him against the sea.

I just raise the possibility because I think it can certainly exist...and if on some level he knows it, the more terrible and tragic his character becomes. To take it a step further...perhaps if on some level he did betray his friends, unconscious or not, this is what allowed him, and only him, to progress on after the Tower...as we know it was a sacrifice later in the storyline which allowed him, and only him, to progress to the man in black, the beach, the doors and all that followed.

flaggwalkstheline
10-26-2009, 09:16 AM
I think when roland talks about playing the betrayer he means that he feels it's unfair that cuthbert and his other friends all died while he survived and also how he accidentally took out his mother and just his general willingness to sacrifice those close to him to get to the tower

overhoser
11-08-2009, 04:27 PM
I think this is a fascinating question here are some other things to think about:

As someone else noted, Roland wouldn't think about himself in the third person. But in the passage, he's not thinking "betrayed by one of their own." It's the narrator speaking. The narration is italicized, but Roland's thoughts are in plain text, as on the next page: "One last time, then, he thinks. Let it be so." So, it's the narrator describing the group in the third person, not Roland. This leaves Roland open as a possibility.

We should also think about who was betrayed: it was DeMullet's column that was ambushed, not Roland's group. The column was ambushed, so they were on the move. The betrayer would have to be someone that knew where they were going. Again, Roland is still a possibility.

But, then again, why would he forget the horn if he were the betrayer? He was clearly overcome with grief...but at the loss of his friends or because he was responsible?

Letti
11-08-2009, 11:14 PM
The fact that Roland told all his big crimes to his friends, his ka-tet makes me sure that Roland couldn't have been the betrayer. He would have told them if he had had his hands in it.

Jean
11-08-2009, 11:55 PM
guys, Roland could have betrayed people to his heart's content, if it served the cause; but he would never betray the cause itself, and the fight between Gilead and Farson's rebels was The Cause at the moment.

LovesSweetExile
08-10-2010, 03:51 AM
Wasn't it John Farsons nephew?

Brainslinger
08-10-2010, 04:41 PM
John Farson's nephew was on John Farson's side. So unless he went undercover posing as one of the gunslinger's own... I doubt it.

The comic series The Fall of Gilead does give the answer though. If you take the comics as legit. While there is much in the comics I'm not keen on, that particular tale was quite interesting. And rather sad.

Saintmatthew
02-02-2011, 11:30 AM
Once can even be betrayed by one's own self confidence, one's presumptions....even tides of fate.

@pol ....I forget which book, pretty sure it's volume 7, it says Roland escaped by hiding underneath bodies and being taken out in a cart full of them.

Roland of Gilead 33
03-15-2011, 10:12 PM
i just read this scene tonite. & maybe Roland said he played the betrayer cuz him & Cuthbert killed Alain. even though it wasn't on purpose you understand. i also am curious who was the one who betrayed them. i don't think it was sheemie either. intentional or not. the guy isn't as dumb as people think he is.

i think he played dumb to the people in mejis. & even though he did i'm sure have. i forget the term at the moment. i think he was smarter than people give him credit for. for example he was smart enough to follow Susan & to stay hidden. when she got kidnapped. a stupid person would have tried to stop him. by himself i mean.

i don't think it was either Roland or Alain Or really any of Rolands original Ka-Tet. he would have killed them right away. & if was Alain he would have at some point admitted it to his 2nd Ka-Tet.

i never thought of him as perfect either. i am curious how old the Roland & Alain & Cuthert actually were when they were killed on Jerico Hill. it really didn't say.

Brainslinger
03-16-2011, 03:05 PM
i just read this scene tonite. & maybe Roland said he played the betrayer cuz him & Cuthbert killed Alain. even though it wasn't on purpose you understand. i also am curious who was the one who betrayed them. i don't think it was sheemie either. intentional or not. the guy isn't as dumb as people think he is.

He has his moments certainly. As I said above, I know who it was, (if you count the comics), and Sheemie had his part to play in those events. (I'm not saying he was the betrayer though.)


i never thought of him as perfect either. i am curious how old the Roland & Alain & Cuthert actually were when they were killed on Jerico Hill. it really didn't say.

I think they were in their early twenties.

Roland of Gilead 33
03-16-2011, 09:40 PM
who was it though ? i mean at some point i'll prolly buy the comics anyways. the DT books are kinda like the Buffy Comics. season 8 or Season 9 when it comes to buffy i mean., a LOT of people don't consider them as part of the show. & others do. i think that pretty much goes the same way for the comics for the DT series. this is of course me just guessing. but you see my point i'm trying to make i'm sure. well i hope.

& i guess it's a good thing that iF Jerico Hill happen when they were in their 20's. at least it happend when they were out of their teens.

velcro_fly
03-17-2011, 12:11 PM
In "Battle of Jericho Hill"
Farson captures the wife and son of a gunslinger named Randolph. He then forces Randolph to betray the other gunslingers, in order to save his sons life.

Roland of Gilead 33
03-17-2011, 12:38 PM
thankee sai. this was in the comic's right? it's actually pretty damn good that it wasn't any of Roland's doing or his Ka-Tet. or his family either. or theirs. well it's a relief i meant to say. was this dude mentioned in the series? outside of the comic's i can't remember to be honest.

velcro_fly
03-17-2011, 05:22 PM
Yes it was in the comics. I don't remember hearing anything about him in the novels, don't even know his last name.

Roland of Gilead 33
03-17-2011, 08:00 PM
i think it would be interesting if Sai King wrote another series of DT books. in comic book form anyways. since the novels wouldn't make sense to write them again. & by the time the series ends. maybe Roland well you know how the series ends. i think that would be interesting if they did that in comic book form.

Roland of Gilead 33
03-17-2011, 09:22 PM
let me further add what i mean. he will have the horn of eld. i wasn't sure if that needed a spoiler tag or not to be honest. well at the start of issue #1.


so it will be a continuation of the original series. what do you guys & gals think?

RUBE
03-18-2011, 08:03 AM
If I am not mistaken, it says ten years after Mejis somewhere in the novels. That would make them around 25.

Roland of Gilead 33
03-18-2011, 09:11 PM
i dunno you maybe right. wasn't the fall of Gilead when Roland was 18? at least in the original version i think that was what was said?

mtdman
05-29-2011, 07:58 PM
Roland was 14 in W&G, and at the end of his long night of story, he tells his little katet that the work they did in Majis only delayed the eventual fall of Gilead by 20 months. That would put Roland at 16 or 17 at the fall.

flaggwalkstheline
05-30-2011, 09:02 AM
so from 17 to middle age roland was in the desert chasing after the man in black
i never realized he'd been at it so long

RolandLover
06-21-2011, 01:58 PM
According to Robin Furth's Concordance, Cuthbert and Roland were 24 years old during the Battle of Jerico

Brainslinger
06-28-2011, 02:58 PM
so from 17 to middle age roland was in the desert chasing after the man in black
i never realized he'd been at it so long

Roland's world isn't all desert.