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View Full Version : The What & Where Thread - DT *Spoilers Here*



Reviarc
08-17-2009, 06:06 PM
*Apologies for the lengthiness but I gotta explain so I don't appear idiotic or too nerdy*

So yeh, I did a search before making this and didn't see any similar posts. If there is one, bring on the flames because all forums typically repeat anyway. Hopefully, this hasn't been discussed a billion times but I'm new here and personally wouldn't give a bumbler's ass if it was. I'm curious to see some ideas and how they relate to my own!

Anyways, I remember there being some tips/hints in the books as to the locations of old, dilapidated cities (relating to cities in our current time) but nothing particularly set in stone besides End World Topeka, KS. I've always been a huge fan of "The world going to crap" type of ideas starting with... the always amazing... Mad MAX BABAY, Yeah! It's been awhile since I've completed all seven books so please keep the post going with new ideas if you'd like because some of the locations have slipped my mind.

For starters though:
Which freakin' city was Lud do you think?

I definately imagined Lud in Book 3 as being a decimated New York City set way in the future (after the world has moved on). I remember SK being really vague about the city though and don't recall him mentioning any landmarks that might prove this theory (Like the Statue of Lib). On the other hand, the bridge where Gasher snagged Jake however and the way that SK described it, I definately imagined the GW Bridge.

Opinions? How about some of the other towns/cities/locations like:
The very first desert Roland hiked (Which desert in the states is surrounded by mountains and is close to an ocean)?
Mejis? (Kentucky?)
Gilead?
New Canaan? (Gilead, Canaan and the other one were actually three cities linked if I remember correctly kind of like Hampton Roads, Virginia).


But to wrap this up, I thought it'd be interesting to throw some ideas here to start a discussion of "Which cities and towns in the story were the cities and towns that we know today?" Obviously the book is set in the future so... Growing up in Washington, DC could I have been one of those great ancestors of Gilead or Roland himself?

Reviarc
08-17-2009, 06:28 PM
And.... I'll go ahead and answer to my own post because I'm wicked like that.

I think Gilead would have HAD to be Washington, DC back in the day. History has a way of preserving its major landmarks and though the name Washington may have been lost in translation, Gilead was an affluent and enormous city that was the home-base of the government.

Roland prolly got sent west by his father to Mejis which sounds pretty Pennsylvanian to me. Not to mention the horses, isolated areas and greenery. PA and West Virginia are (close) west of DC for the not so geographically inclined. Kentucky isn't too far off either. Hmmmmm........ Where in the hell did you go Roland?

Reviarc
08-18-2009, 01:19 PM
Well, this is no fun :L

Brice
08-18-2009, 03:52 PM
I really don't consider Roland's world a futuristic version of our world. Maybe it's a futuristic version of a world next door to ours. I don't know.

Reviarc
08-18-2009, 06:02 PM
Ok, I'm confused...

Let me explain:
So, we'll assume Roland's world is the world he's traveling in the first book (The Gunslinger). The only time he ever leaves that world (Up until book 5) is for the drawing of the three. He doesn't stay in New York long through the doors. After he draws, they return to Roland's world and continue the journey for quite awhile (through books 1-5).

In book 3 they arrive at an empty and dead Topeka, Kansas via Blaine from Lud. Well if Roland's world wasn't our world, did his also have a Topeka, Kansas? Also, why would would there be the remains of a CITGO refinery in Mejis if it wasn't previously our world? They sure as hell had no idea what CITGO was but only that it was there.

Naw man, Roland's world has gotta be the remains of our world. Too many coincidences.

dcm510
08-18-2009, 07:43 PM
It was on my mind for a while that Roland's world is a future of ours...that maybe we, or even people still in our future, are what they call the old people, but it's hard to say for sure. Although it does make sense.

I want to point out, though, that (im new here and not sure what requires spoiler tags, but better safe than sorry...)
in the last book, when Roland is in the Tet Corporation offices, he sees the George Washington Bridge and says himself that it must be identical to the one they crossed to enter Lud

Reviarc
08-19-2009, 01:51 AM
It was on my mind for a while that Roland's world is a future of ours...that maybe we, or even people still in our future, are what they call the old people, but it's hard to say for sure. Although it does make sense.

I want to point out, though, that (im new here and not sure what requires spoiler tags, but better safe than sorry...)
in the last book, when Roland is in the Tet Corporation offices, he sees the George Washington Bridge and says himself that it must be identical to the one they crossed to enter Lud

That may be where I got the idea from in my first post here. So Lud is probably New York City remains, huh? There's really no other bridge in the states that resembles the GWB.

FYI: It's safe to post spoilers here without the tag because the thread is marked as a *Spoiler* thread. Might save you some time in future posts ;)

Brice
08-19-2009, 03:50 AM
Ok, I'm confused...

Let me explain:
So, we'll assume Roland's world is the world he's traveling in the first book (The Gunslinger). The only time he ever leaves that world (Up until book 5) is for the drawing of the three. He doesn't stay in New York long through the doors. After he draws, they return to Roland's world and continue the journey for quite awhile (through books 1-5).

In book 3 they arrive at an empty and dead Topeka, Kansas via Blaine from Lud. Well if Roland's world wasn't our world, did his also have a Topeka, Kansas? Also, why would would there be the remains of a CITGO refinery in Mejis if it wasn't previously our world? They sure as hell had no idea what CITGO was but only that it was there.

Naw man, Roland's world has gotta be the remains of our world. Too many coincidences.

I disagree. Roland's world has moved on...time and space are thin. The space between worlds is thin. Multiple worlds allow for every concievable world to exist. Such as a world where brand names are slightly different and different people we recognize are on their money. The fact that CITGO existed doesn't mean it is our world. Mere coincidence could allow for that. As for the Kansas thing I think our ka-tet and Blaine crossed worlds, but not into ours either.

Patrick
08-26-2009, 11:44 AM
When I first read the early books in the series, I used to think that Roland's world was our world in the distant future. I figured Roland was drawing the three not from an alternate reality, but the same reality in the distant past (our time). Later in my reading I felt differently.

Still this concept of trying to match up locations in the series with places in our reality is an interesting mental exercise.

grace2299
08-26-2009, 11:53 AM
There was no Topeka in Roland's world, I was reading that in Wizard and Glass just today, (for the 2nd time), and it said that. But he did recognize the words Santa Fe and he knew a man who was killed playing W:orely:atch Me by the name of Omaha.

MonteGss
08-26-2009, 12:59 PM
Brice is right.

Chomp
03-03-2011, 06:26 AM
I know this thread is old, but it comes closest to my question, so I'm posting here. I hope that's not a problem.

Is Roland's world really completely different from Earth as we know it? I just finished the last book yesterday and to me it also seemed to be a future version of our world, just different in a few details. Why should Roland's world be the only one that is completely different? All the others worlds, be it the Keystone Earth or any copy of it, are based on our Earth, just with minor differences. I think it was mentioned several times that one can never be sure in which world one ends up when going through a door, so why do they always end up in some version of Earth? If there are endless different worlds, chances that they might end up in a completely different one are a lot higher than always ending up on Earth. So to me it seems that there are endless worlds, but all are versions of earth.
Also, I don't understand why Blaine's final station should be called Topeka, if it is actually just a Topeka from another Earth? And why did he have a station there to begin with?

pathoftheturtle
03-03-2011, 12:30 PM
..., I don't understand why Blaine's final station should be called Topeka, if it is actually just a Topeka from another Earth? And why did he have a station there to begin with?I think the builders used that monorail to travel between worlds from the start.

... this concept of trying to match up locations in the series with places in our reality is an interesting mental exercise.Maybe, if you're interested in going insane!
Like, for example, they follow the beam which goes southwest from New York City and thus eventually arrive in Maine. :beat:

SK has mentioned that he was inspired by Sergio Leone's films and that he found it charming that Leone made serious errors regarding American geography. It's intentionally disorienting -- King considered that to contribute to an "otherworldly" atmosphere.

Brainslinger
03-03-2011, 02:37 PM
Is Roland's world really completely different from Earth as we know it?

I think that depends on what you mean by 'completely different'. I'm sure it's not our Earth in the future, but could our Earth have become it if it took a similar path? I think it could have been similar but never the same. There will never be a great big physical Tower that is the lynch-pin of existence in our world for one thing. It's a rose over here.*

I also get the impression that while Roland's world had great cities in the time of the Great Old Ones, there were never as may as our own. I think that world was still less populated than our own world at the height of it's civilisation. I can't really back this up, but that's the impression I got. It's mainly from something Roland thought in one of the earlier books (I think it was when Roland hypnotised Jake back in The Gunslinger). Of course Roland's point of view could be biassed by the lack of experience in these things but his intuition is often correct.


Why should Roland's world be the only one that is completely different?

The simple answer to that is "it's not!" I'm sure there are plenty of other worlds similar to Roland's. And plenty quite different from his and our own.


All the others worlds, be it the Keystone Earth or any copy of it, are based on our Earth, just with minor differences.

Not all other worlds, just the ones that appear in this story.


so why do they always end up in some version of Earth? If there are endless different worlds, chances that they might end up in a completely different one are a lot higher than always ending up on Earth.

I think chance is void in these books where ka is a major theme, at least in this respect. They were meant to come to the keystone world and other world's that are similar, so they did. It has also been mentioned that the Keystone World is twinned with Roland's world, another keystone of sorts (or at least it was before it moved on). So while they are very far apart in some ways, in other ways they are very close.


Also, I don't understand why Blaine's final station should be called Topeka, if it is actually just a Topeka from another Earth? And why did he have a station there to begin with?

I often wondered at that too.

I think pathoftheturtle could be right. We do know that the Great Old Ones did travel between worlds.

However, the suggestion in Wizard and Glass is that the train travelled through a thinny. Since thinnies are essentially erosions (or cause erosions, I'm not too clear on that) in reality in a world that has moved on, I doubt that it was around during the time of the Great Old Ones. If the GOOs wanted to traverse worlds, I think they'd just use one of their mechanical doors. It's my personal view that the monorail probably originally led to somewhere at the end of Mid-world**, probably the Callas or near by. Blaine has some advanced monitoring equipment that he used to keep tabs on the world (or maybe that should be plural?). I think he was aware of the erosion between worlds and the new destination of the monorail as a result. He simply changed the map to suit. (Likely it appealed to his sense of humour too. Mess with the humans' heads by showing them the truth. )

*When I say 'our world' I mean the Keystone Earth. Debatably it's not ours, but I always took it to be the fictionalised version of ours. (Or is it? :) )

** I'm using the word 'Mid-world' in the way it's used in The Waste Lands here, i.e. an ancient kingdom in Roland's world, rather than way it was used in Wizard and Glass, i.e the world as a whole.

pathoftheturtle
03-03-2011, 05:21 PM
... There will never be a great big physical Tower that is the lynch-pin of existence in our world for one thing. It's a rose over here. ...But they built a great big physical tower around that rose. And remember that there are roses at Roland's Tower as well. I think there's some possiblity that there could be a Dark Tower here in a few thousand years... never say never.


However, the suggestion in Wizard and Glass is that the train travelled through a thinny. ...You can't travel through a thinny can you? I thought they led strictly one-way. Also, I recall Blaine saying something or other about old travelers to other worlds. Dammit, now I gotta get my books out.

Chomp
03-04-2011, 02:50 AM
Is Roland's world really completely different from Earth as we know it?

I think that depends on what you mean by 'completely different'. I'm sure it's not our Earth in the future, but could our Earth have become it if it took a similar path? I think it could have been similar but never the same. There will never be a great big physical Tower that is the lynch-pin of existence in our world for one thing. It's a rose over here.*

I also get the impression that while Roland's world had great cities in the time of the Great Old Ones, there were never as may as our own. I think that world was still less populated than our own world at the height of it's civilisation. I can't really back this up, but that's the impression I got. It's mainly from something Roland thought in one of the earlier books (I think it was when Roland hypnotised Jake back in The Gunslinger). Of course Roland's point of view could be biassed by the lack of experience in these things but his intuition is often correct.

Since there are so many similiarities between Roland's world and Earth as we know it (brand names being one of them) I thought that it's at least some version of Earth and not a completely different planet.



so why do they always end up in some version of Earth? If there are endless different worlds, chances that they might end up in a completely different one are a lot higher than always ending up on Earth.

I think chance is void in these books where ka is a major theme, at least in this respect. They were meant to come to the keystone world and other world's that are similar, so they did. It has also been mentioned that the Keystone World is twinned with Roland's world, another keystone of sorts (or at least it was before it moved on). So while they are very far apart in some ways, in other ways they are very close.

Ok, that's definitely a way to explain it. Although I agree with Eddie when it comes to ka. ;)



Also, I don't understand why Blaine's final station should be called Topeka, if it is actually just a Topeka from another Earth? And why did he have a station there to begin with?

I often wondered at that too.

I think pathoftheturtle could be right. We do know that the Great Old Ones did travel between worlds.

However, the suggestion in Wizard and Glass is that the train travelled through a thinny. Since thinnies are essentially erosions (or cause erosions, I'm not too clear on that) in reality in a world that has moved on, I doubt that it was around during the time of the Great Old Ones. If the GOOs wanted to traverse worlds, I think they'd just use one of their mechanical doors. It's my personal view that the monorail probably originally led to somewhere at the end of Mid-world**, probably the Callas or near by. Blaine has some advanced monitoring equipment that he used to keep tabs on the world (or maybe that should be plural?). I think he was aware of the erosion between worlds and the new destination of the monorail as a result. He simply changed the map to suit. (Likely it appealed to his sense of humour too. Mess with the humans' heads by showing them the truth. )

That's one thing I don't really understand either. Wasn't it implied in Wizard and Glass that thinnies are lethal? Or did I forget/mix up something? It's been a while since I read that part.



... There will never be a great big physical Tower that is the lynch-pin of existence in our world for one thing. It's a rose over here. ...But they built a great big physical tower around that rose. And remember that there are roses at Roland's Tower as well. I think there's some possiblity that there could be a Dark Tower here in a few thousand years... never say never.

This brings up another question I had about the Dark Tower. Since it holds all the worlds in existence, how could it be built by people existing in exactly one of these worlds? Or is the world in which the Dark Tower stands something like the base world, which can also exist without it?

pathoftheturtle
03-04-2011, 08:48 AM
... There will never be a great big physical Tower that is the lynch-pin of existence in our world for one thing. It's a rose over here. ...But they built a great big physical tower around that rose. And remember that there are roses at Roland's Tower as well. I think there's some possiblity that there could be a Dark Tower here in a few thousand years... never say never.

This brings up another question I had about the Dark Tower. Since it holds all the worlds in existence, how could it be built by people existing in exactly one of these worlds? Or is the world in which the Dark Tower stands something like the base world, which can also exist without it?Ka.

If their tower becomes Gan's Tower, (still a very big IF) it will be through the magic of the rose. Anyway, the Tower existing inside one world is not the whole of the Tower inside which all worlds exist.

And that's also the answer to your other question, I wot:
Since there are so many similiarities between Roland's world and Earth as we know it (brand names being one of them) I thought that it's at least some version of Earth and not a completely different planet.If there is a God of all worlds, then there could be similarities between them, even if they had no other connection.

Chomp
03-05-2011, 04:41 AM
Ok, just so I understand this, because I'm not sure if I did when reading the books. ;)
If the Crimson King succeeded in destroying the Dark Tower, all worlds but Roland's would have ceased to exist?

pathoftheturtle
03-05-2011, 08:30 AM
I think a better question would be whether he had any real chance of destroying Roland's Tower once he had failed to destroy the rose and the writer of Keystone Earth. If those didn't really matter, then why all the fuss?
Maybe he had a chance either way, though -- there's a scene in DT2 when Balazar is building a house of cards and we're given a nice bit of narration that suggests that all of existence may be a tower of the same kind... pull any one piece out, and everything tumbles.

Brainslinger
03-05-2011, 07:56 PM
You can't travel through a thinny can you? I thought they led strictly one-way. Also, I recall Blaine saying something or other about old travelers to other worlds. Dammit, now I gotta get my books out.

That's a good point actually. However I don't see that tower as being The Tower of Roland's world or truly it's equivalent, although it is a twin of sorts. Roland's Tower seems to be a living being. Possibly the body of Gan himself. No human being built it. The tower in the Keystone world is essentially just a man made building. I think the equivalent of the Tower in that world is the Rose.

The latter books do confuse this issue a bit though. At one point the Rose is stated to be the incarnation of the Tower in other worlds. At another point it's stated to be running one of the Beams.... However since the Beam exists as an actual Beam in the Keystone world, and the Tower and the Beams are fundamentally interconnected maybe that's not a contradiction after all.


That's one thing I don't really understand either. Wasn't it implied in Wizard and Glass that thinnies are lethal? Or did I forget/mix up something? It's been a while since I read that part.

I was a bit confused by that too. The one in the canyon in Wizard and Glass is certainly lethal. On the other hand isn't there mention of them walking through it in Topeka, or was that just the mist it gave out? I often wondered how Roland would know this particular thinny was only a pain on the ears and head with it's warbling... but if it was just the emissions...


You can't travel through a thinny can you? I thought they led strictly one-way.

I've often wondered myself. I do seem to remember the ka-tet surmising that was how they crossed over to Topeka. I thought they suggested that they didn't notice because they were busy riddling. (I think I'll have a look at the book too to confirm this. )

Of course even if they stated this, that doesn't mean they are correct. Or if they are, maybe Blain protected them from the effects of the thinny? As to whether you can travel through thinnies (with protection), the very fact that they seem to chew away at reality, the fact that their name is based around the word 'thin' suggest to me that you can. If they wear away the barrier between worlds, surely you can pass through, although you could end up anywhere. Or if not through the thinny itself, then through the opening* they leave. (Or are they the opening? I've never been entirely clear on that.) Or it might not leave an actual coherent opening like a door or a hole. More a, borderland. A softer place where both realities merge, if that makes sense. You may pass through without even realising until later. It seems the palace was viewed from both Topeka in Stand-world (for want of a better name) and Mid-World, suggesting it straddles both. That would back up the reality overlap idea.

Bit of an aside: I have a theory that the green palace where they found Flagg was in fact within one of those balcony worlds described in the last book. They state that, it isn't an illusion, and I don't think Flagg has the power to rearrange matter to the extent that he could create the palace just like that. (That doesn't seem to be his thing.) He is a world hopper though. And I could imagine him taking advantage of the thinness of that environment to open a way to a balcony world where such a palace exists. Those worlds are full of all the fantasies of human imagination after all. If they can contain gingerbread houses, I'm sure they can contain glass palaces.


I thought that it's at least some version of Earth and not a completely different planet.

I agree with that. I see the word 'world' more in the dimensional or universe type sense not the physical planet sense. That being said, it appears the constellations of Roland's world are different... but I think that's just an 'eventuality' thing.

pathoftheturtle
03-05-2011, 08:08 PM
... since the Beam exists as an actual Beam in the Keystone world, and the Tower and the Beams are fundamentally interconnected maybe that's not a contradiction after all.
...Exactly. And I suspect that the Tower and the roses are fundamentally interconnected, as well.

... As to whether you can travel through thinnies (with protection), the very fact that they seem to chew away at reality, the fact that their name is based around the word 'thin' suggest to me that you can. If they wear away the barrier between worlds, surely you can pass through, although you could end up anywhere. ...But are they thinnies worn away in the barriers between Earths or in the barrier to the Outer Dark?