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turtlex

11-19-2008, 09:01 AM

educatedlady

11-19-2008, 09:06 AM

I was reading this yesterday and I would turn the page and think..."how in the hell did so and so get higher on the list than so and so." Over and over I said that. I disagreed with a lot of them. Especially number one. I think there are many people on the list that deserve to be number 1 more than Aretha.

jayson

11-19-2008, 09:58 AM

As turtlex and I have discussed in the Now Playing thread, I think these lists that Rolling Stone does are pretty ludicrous. In terms of both the people left off of the lists and the rankings of the people on the lists, there is little to take seriously.

I try to remind myself it's only meant to be a compilation of opinions of a handful of people, but rightly or wrongly, there are far too many people who take these specific opinions way too seriously. I know when RS put out it's 100 Greatest Guitar Players list I encountered a LOT of people who used that list as their basis of discussion with me over who the greatest guitarists were. Despite not even being aware of some of the players who didn't make the list, these people were more than willing to argue with me quoting the stupid little blurbs from RS as their reasoning.

Lest I come off as an even bigger music snob than I typically do, let me say that I don't begrudge anyone the right to their own tastes in music, but when the discussion turns from "I personally like this" to "this is better than that" I am pretty adamant that people know what the hell they are talking about. Even if it remains a necessarily subjective debate, people should have some knowledge of the subject on which to base their arguments other than "Rolling Stone says."

As far as Aretha being at the top goes, I think it serves to exemplify my point. If Etta James were the more well-known artist, she would very likely be at the top of the list, at least the top female on the list, but the Aretha mythos has been so built-up in the world of American music that they feel compelled to put her first. She has a great voice, that I cannot deny. However, her range and her ability to sing different styles of music are nowhere near as wide as Etta's. This should be a major factor in these calculations.

I will refrain from an even longer diatribe about ranking Axl Rose ahead of people with legitimate range like Thom Yorke, Tom Waits, and especially Wilson Pickett and Solomon Burke. I will simply state that to place Rose ahead of Pickett or Burke pretty much disqualifies the list from being taken seriously. Guns n Roses may have made some halfway decent music that people like to get nostalgic about, but to claim that Axl is, by any definition, a better singer than either of them is simply prepsoterous.

Ok, that's enough from me for now. I need a sedative. :)

turtlex

11-19-2008, 10:28 AM

No sedation, then we won't get your insights.

I agree with Jayson, regarding the lists being just nutso.

First off - Where are the likes of Melissa Etheridge, and um... Billie Holliday?!?

And placements are just points of :panic: for me. Micheal Jackon at 25? Higher than Bonnie Raitt or Wilson Pickett? Come on !

As I mentioned to Jayson in the other thread - Freddie Mercury is WAY too far down the list and I wouldn't have Stevie Wonder in the Top 10.

I know it's all subjective, for sure, but some of these I look at and think... hunh?!?

Their lists in general make me :pullhair: for sure.

jayson

11-19-2008, 10:43 AM

...Billie Holliday?!?

I understand the exclusion of Holliday as I believe the list's full title is the "100 Greatest Singers of the Rock Era", not of all time. Were it of all time the exclusion of Billie Holliday would have me furious.

For that matter, if it were all time, the only reason to discuss Aretha Franklin at all would be to figure out how far down the list to place her after Holliday, Bessie Smith, Sarah Vaughn, Ella Fitzgerald and Edith Piaf.

As for Stevie, I do love Stevie both as a singer and, especially, as a musician, but he wouldn't have cracked my top 10 either.

And let me repeat what I said in the Now Playing thread because I still can't believe I had to say it... Where the hell is David Gilmour? I wouldn't put him in my top 10 either, but how can he not be in the top 100? I won't continue to use Axl as my example, so let's pick on someone else... how about Steven Tyler? Exactly what criterion are being used to make these calls that Tyler ranks in the top 100 but Gilmour doesn't? I know Gilmour was ranked too high on the top 100 guitar players list, but to leave him off the top 100 singers list is sheer stupidity.

I also note that they have included several country singers on this list, so I ask where the hell are Emmylou Harris and Alison Krauss? I like Patti Smith but to suggest that she is a better singer than either of them is silly. She may be a more important and influential figure in music (she's certainly crucial in the development of american punk rock) but a better singer? :pullhair:

turtlex

11-19-2008, 10:53 AM

If you're going to add country voices - where is Wynonna Judd or even Martina McBride? They got the pipes.

I don't know - a lot of these placements are just wrong to me. I think I would have Axl there someplace, but closer to the bottom, and definitely lower than Steven Tyler.

As far as # 1 - I guess I can't argue really about Aretha. She's amazing and just so ARETHA! Her voice is perfect, it's butter to my ears. Though, by no long shot is she my favorite artist in general.

I was sort of surprised at how many Blues singers were listed. It's almost like they had no real criteria so sort of made it up as they went along.

Oh, and I'd have Van Morrison higher on the list, for sure.

Gilmour should be there, somewhere.

And so should Pat Benatar! Where the heck is she?

Lose Bjork and Patti Smith ( sorry, I don't like the singing of either ) and bring on Pat Benatar or Joan Jett.

And I am going to toss this out there - Where are John Mellencamp and Bob Seger?

turtlex

11-19-2008, 11:01 AM

Some other suggestions missing from the list :

Sarah McLaughlin, Joan Osborne, Carly Simon, Grace Slick, Ann Wilson and Nancy Wilson, Indigo Girls, Marty Balin, Ray Davies, Donovan, Bryan Ferry, Peter Gabriel, Greg Lake, Cat Stevens, and Warren Zevon?

Names tossed out by folks at work.

jayson

11-19-2008, 11:18 AM

I think I would have Axl there someplace, but closer to the bottom, and definitely lower than Steven Tyler.

See, this is where they tend to piss me off. I'd be willing to entertain anyone in a debate as to why Joey Ramone is a significantly better singer than either of these two. For that matter, if we are going to include "fake metal" like GnR or Aerosmith, how about some actual metal on the list? Where are Bruce Dickinson and Rob Halford on that list because they can both sing Axl and Tyler right off the stage.

Or let's discuss the exclusion of Mike Patton at the expense of these other two. Most people only know Patton from Faith No More (though that alone should be more than enough for him to prove himself against Axl Rose), but his career is much wider than that, and a good deal of it has been based around the versatility of that voice. From crooning to outright shrieking, Patton can do it all, often switching from one to the other and back on the drop of a dime.

As far as # 1 - I guess I can't argue really about Aretha. She's amazing and just so ARETHA! Her voice is perfect, it's butter to my ears. Though, by no long shot is she my favorite artist in general.

I can, but I won't, well not too much anyway. Like I said previously, there's no denying her talent. I just think there are singers, male and female with more range and more diversity, and yes, more soul (especially Otis). Otis belongs at the top of the list no matter what the basis of judgment is.

I was sort of surprised at how many Blues singers were listed. It's almost like they had no real criteria so sort of made it up as they went along.

I'm not surprised as Rolling Stone loves to pretend it respects the blues roots of rock music. What surprised me is which blues singers made it and which ones didn't, but that's probably due to where they drew the line for the beginning of the "rock era".

Oh, and I'd have Van Morrison higher on the list, for sure.

Can't argue with that. Van's the man.

Here's my question of the moment... They've got Levon Helm on there. I completely agree with that. Levon has a unique and great voice. However, this means they are clearly aware of The Band, so where are Rick Danko and Richard Manuel? Listen to the version of It Makes No Difference from The Last Waltz and tell me Danko doesn't belong on this list? Listen to ANY song Manuel sang for The Band and tell me he doesn't belong on the list.

I could go on and on. Every time a new song comes up in my shuffled playlist I think of someone else who belongs on this list and someone else who doesn't.

Also, Sharon Jones can out-sing at least 90 of those people.

turtlex

11-19-2008, 11:24 AM

Crap! How could I have missed Rob Halford. For sure. That's a great rock voice!

I think both Tyler and Rose have great rock voices, so they'd be there, for me, but I can't disagree with you totally on your points. I'd drop either for Rob Halford.

Otis. Yup. You got me there. He should be top 10. Yuppers.

I love Levon Helm! Great voice. And yeah, Rick Danko! Where the heck is he?! And to be honest, I have a great Robbie Robertson album that totally rocks. Not a great voice, but better than Bjork ! ( sorry, kinda pet peev of mine, I guess )

And this is sad - Elton John at 38.

And no Jimmy Buffett ?!?!??!

jayson

11-19-2008, 11:42 AM

Crap! How could I have missed Rob Halford. For sure. That's a great rock voice!

For you, or me, or any individual to miss Halford as we think of these off the top of our heads is one thing, and perfectly acceptable. For a room full of professional music journalists and critics to do so is unacceptable, and to say they forgot him is being extremely generous on my part. It could very well be that they did discuss him and he didn't make their top 100. Either way, they lose credibility in having him excluded for the likes of Rose or Tyler, neither of whom I much care for, particularly Rose.

I don't even dislike GnR as much as it would seem I do with my constant bashing of Axl in this thread, but the same thing happened with the guitar player list. People may like GnR, but the list of guitar players better than Slash could number in the thousands.

And to be honest, I have a great Robbie Robertson album that totally rocks. Not a great voice, but better than Bjork ! ( sorry, kinda pet peev of mine, I guess )

I love Robbie, mostly as a song writer and guitar player, but I agree, he can't really sing. I always found it interesting that in a band like The Band with three great singers that almost all of the lyrics were written by one of the non-singing members of the band.

As for Bjork, I'm not much of a fan of her music, but I definitely appreciate the range of that voice of hers. She wouldn't make my top 100, but I get what she's trying to do, I just don't really care for it. I'll tell you who I would put on that list long before I would put Bjork and that's Tori Amos. My wife is a huge fan of hers so I have heard the vast majority of her catalog. Love her or hate her, that woman has a remarkable voice that is suited to so many different styles of music.

Now, if we want to talk about a female singer who I would put on that list ahead of Patti Smith or Pat Benatar or Joan Jett, it's PJ Harvey.

And this is sad - Elton John at 38.

It is sad. He belongs a LOT higher than that. It's as if the people who compiled the list don't understand what double-tracking is, or how difficult it is to do. It's a technique that Elton and David Gilmour excel at. Try recording yourself and then singing the same thing along with the playback in a different pitch and see for yourself how difficult it is. You'll gain a whole new appreciation for singers like Elton or Gilmour or Bowie.

And no Jimmy Buffett ?!?!??!

That I have no problem with. I won't expand on it too much as I tend to upset people when I go off on Jimmy Buffet, but I simply can't stand him.

Now, whoever in your office mentioned Warren Zevon gets my :thumbsup:
WZ is so underrated.

Rjeso

11-19-2008, 12:10 PM

I hate all the RS lists of Greatest Whatever. I always find so many problems therein that I don't even bother looking at them. I wouldn't consider Aretha a rock voice anyway, so what's she doing in the #1 spot? Where's Billy Joel? Why is Freddie so low on the list?

jayson

11-19-2008, 12:13 PM

I wouldn't consider Aretha a rock voice anyway, so what's she doing in the #1 spot?

I don't think it was intended to be a list of best rock singers, just singers of the "rock era," which is their (stupid) way of saying 1956 to present.

Rjeso

11-19-2008, 12:22 PM

Oh, for lame.

Arthur Heath

11-19-2008, 12:25 PM

I must be blind. I checked the list twice and found no Sting? NO STING?!?!?!? NO EFFIN STING?!?!?!
I will never again read Rolling Stone.
No Sting.
Unbelievable.

Rjeso

11-19-2008, 12:26 PM

Oh, dude! Sting. Seriously.

Arthur Heath

11-19-2008, 12:39 PM

I suppose thats an idle threat. I dont read RS anyways. But no Sting. You said it, Seriously.
How the hell does Bjork make the list and not Sting?

jayson

11-19-2008, 12:41 PM

Interesting. I hadn't thought about Sting. I don't know that he'd necessarily make my personal top 100 (I'd have to actually compile it to figure that out) but I do know he's a LOT better of a singer than many people who made the RS list.

Arthur Heath

11-19-2008, 12:50 PM

jayson

11-19-2008, 12:53 PM

I don't know that he'd necessarily make my personal top 100 (I'd have to actually compile it to figure that out)

I wont hold it against you buddy. :P Not sure if you all can tell, but Im a HUGE Police fan.

I too love the Police. It's Sting's solo career I can't stand. Not that his voice lost quality in his solo stuff, but the music sure did.

ladysai

11-19-2008, 04:24 PM

They lost me when I saw Bob Dylan at #7.
~puke~
Sorry.
I know he was a great artist and songwriter.
But, singer? No way.

jayson

11-19-2008, 04:46 PM

They lost me when I saw Bob Dylan at #7.
~puke~
Sorry.
I know he was a great artist and songwriter.
But, singer? No way.

I couldn't disagree more. There are so many of his songs on which that voice is so bittersweet and so perfect.

It's also an incredibly diverse voice, capable of so many different things. Maybe it doesn't show on every song, but across the vast vast catalog there are so many examples of his voice being perfectly suited for his music, and that's really all that matters. There's nobody else that could deliver most of his songs even half as perfectly as he can. There are some nice covers, but when it comes down to it, nobody understands and delivers on those lyrics like Bob can.

But we all have our own opinions.

Heather19

11-19-2008, 05:32 PM

I really can't stand any of Rolling Stone's lists.

I'll tell you who I would put on that list long before I would put Bjork and that's Tori Amos. My wife is a huge fan of hers so I have heard the vast majority of her catalog. Love her or hate her, that woman has a remarkable voice that is suited to so many different styles of music.

I was looking for her, expecting that they might actually have included her, but alas no.

Telynn

11-19-2008, 05:51 PM

Rolling Stone lost all credibilty with me when they pushed Madonna into the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame.

That list is total crap.

turtlex

11-20-2008, 04:19 AM

I too love the Police. It's Sting's solo career I can't stand. Not that his voice lost quality in his solo stuff, but the music sure did.

OMG - You just perfectly described my feelings on Sting.

Honestly, I wouldn't have him on my list.

Oh, and I'll take the bow on Warren Zevon... my pick. Love "Lawyers Guns and Money" and "Werewolves of London".

Frunobulax

11-20-2008, 09:24 PM

I only have one thing to say:
[facepalm]

LadyHitchhiker

11-21-2008, 07:42 AM

There's a lot of good singers on this list but their organization is a bit mindboggling...

jayson

11-21-2008, 07:47 AM

Jean

11-21-2008, 08:29 AM

For that matter, if it were all time, the only reason to discuss Aretha Franklin at all would be to figure out how far down the list to place her after Holliday, Bessie Smith, Sarah Vaughn, Ella Fitzgerald and Edith Piaf.:
my eyes hurt to look at the list, so I used CTRL+F to see if Piaf was there... and her only appearance was in your post. http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

jayson

11-21-2008, 09:07 AM

my eyes hurt to look at the list, so I used CTRL+F to see if Piaf was there... and her only appearance was in your post. http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

She's not in there, but like I said, it's because the list is not really of all time singers as they claim, but singers of the "rock era" by which I suspect they mean post 1956. 1956 was the year of the release of the first Elvis Presley album which is where most music writers begin the "rock era." Otherwise the exclusion of Piaf would be inexcusable.

Matt

11-21-2008, 09:13 AM

James Taylor? Was he on there?

jayson

11-21-2008, 09:15 AM

James Taylor? Was he on there?

#74

Frunobulax

11-21-2008, 10:53 AM

I only have one thing to say:
[facepalm]

And that says more than enough. :)

I suspect you will concur on this one Fruno... how did Frank and Napoleon not make this list? Well, I know they didn't make it because the writers at RS are a bunch of posers who wouldn't know real music if it smacked them upside the head, but a real list of the 100 greatest singers of any era would have both of those guys on it, especially Napoleon.

Them +/- Ike, who showed amazing versatility from Joe's Garage on. Plus no Bryan Ferry, Geddy Lee, or Peter Gabriel on the list. It's just mind boggling at how shoddy their list is, but then again I'm not surprised. RS is still probably reeling from that fucking cigarette ad that single handedly raped indie music prison style [anything that tries to capitalize on Devendra Banhart, Dirty Projectors (who are NOT "spazz rock"), etc. is shit].

turtlex

11-21-2008, 11:06 AM

I was thinking - Why James Taylor but not Carly Simon? Or Carole King? It's an odd list...

No Jon Bon Jovi, either.

jayson

11-21-2008, 11:36 AM

Them +/- Ike, who showed amazing versatility from Joe's Garage on. Plus no Bryan Ferry, Geddy Lee, or Peter Gabriel on the list.

All of the above. :)

No Jon Bon Jovi, either.

That I have no problem whatsoever with, especially if we are making room for people like Fruno suggested above, especially Bryan Ferry.

Telynn

11-21-2008, 04:17 PM

The fact that Neil Young is on the list, and Ann Wilson is not.... that's all there is to that. Neil Young is an excellent song writer. But he is NOT that great of a singer. Ann Wilson has one of the most (if not THE most) powerful female voices ever. And Patti Smith is on the list instead?

Brice

11-21-2008, 04:33 PM

I'd be interested to see the lists y'all would make if it was your choice who went into the top 100.

Bluenose

11-21-2008, 04:49 PM

Paul Rodgers at 55, Gregg Allman at 70 and is Jackson Browne on the list?

The only thing about lists like this is that it reflects whats popular and credible NOW. At least a lot of great singers are getting some degree of the respect they are due.

Unlike the greatest UK song poll I read a few years ago which had Robbie Williams' Angels as the greatest UK song, ahead of Stairway to Heaven, Hey Jude, Bohemian Rhapsody...

turtlex

11-22-2008, 02:18 AM

Though I admit I do like some Bon Jovi - I do think Jon Bon Jovi should be on the list. He's got a great rock voice ( it's the writing that really isn't all that great )... he nails a song, especially those power ballards!

Jackie

11-22-2008, 09:30 AM

23 | David Bowie

Definitly...my favorite

:wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

jayson

12-07-2008, 08:29 AM

Someone posted this at my Tom Waits forum. It's Keith Richards' actual ballot for this poll. I give him credit for ranking Jimmy Cliff so high on his list (he is definitely one of the greatest singers ever) but I take away credit for voting for himself. Voting for one's self is a pretty cheesy thing to do. Also interesting that he voted for himself and not for Mick. Not that I disagree, I don't care for Jagger's voice either, but I'm not in his band.

http://i35.tinypic.com/w7zjb6.jpg

turtlex

12-07-2008, 09:51 AM

I love that he's got Raitt on there, and Warren Zevon.

I can't believe he put himself on there.... has he lost his hearing?!?

jayson

12-08-2008, 06:09 AM

If I had a ballot, it'd have looked like this...

(Notice that for me, "of all time" means "of all time")

http://i38.tinypic.com/34t5nvs.jpg

Brice

12-08-2008, 06:26 AM

:lol: Well, at least neither you nor Keith voted yourselves as THE best.

jayson

12-08-2008, 06:31 AM

I didn't vote for myself at all. That last box is for signature. :P