Gan=God? (Not a religious discussion) **Spoilers**

[razz]

-

[The Lady of Shadows]

i tried to spoiler all the 'salem's lot giveaways but if i missed any would someone let me know (or the ptb can just spoiler them then slap me around later)? thanks.


callahan doesn't actually use his cross against the vampires though. he uses his faith against them, and that's an entirely different thing. that's what got him into trouble in 'salem's lot remember? he tried to put his faith into a worldly object instead of where it belonged - a power higher than himself. he was arrogant and assumed that he deserved to be saved and that a simple piece of wood and plastic would do it.

the power of the cross comes from the belief that the cross has power, just like the power of any religious symbol. for father callahan, the cross is a symbol of the relationship between man and god. for me, the star of david has power because i believe in it and its power; the torah has phenomenal power because i believe in it and its power.

father callahan's different beliefs controlled whether the cross had any effect. he was such a different man in the lot. a drunken, arrogant, foolish man who pretended to be someone and something he was not. in the calla he was a more sober (in every sense of the word) man. less eager to pretend and more willing to sit back and watch and listen.

i think that the father callahan who was sober and really, firmly grasped the idea that there was a power higher than himself (be it god, gan, the turtle, the bear, whatever) was willing and able to throw aside the cross and stand on his own. but when that happened, he wasn't on his own. in the lot, even holding the cross, he was on his own. he was abandoned by god because he had abandoned god.

as for whether gan is god. i don't know. i know if gan is god he's not the catholic god - or not just the catholic god. i think perhaps he's all things to all people. he is what he needs to be when he needs to be it. for some he's a bear, for some he's a turtle, for some he's a shining white light, for others he's the big sky daddy. am i making any sense?

and razzle, there's no way this is not going to turn into a religious discussion on some level. but i think we're really discussion father callahan's religion. mayhap the religion of the entire series.

[flaggwalkstheline]

it means there is A god but not necessarily a definable god since the cross failed,

[The Lady of Shadows]

but did the cross fail or did father callahan in the lot i mean? cause it sure didn't fail in the dixie pig now did it? and neither did the fadda! :nope:

[Letti]

The cross never failed. The man did. Callahan.

(and I respect and love him so much that he could stand up)

[Darkthoughts]

I don't think Gan is God, or even the equivalent of God.

If you consider that all possible worlds exist on some level of the Tower, then God would be an entity that resides within those worlds, therefore within the Tower - so Gan is a vessel containing all beliefs rather than being another facet of a particular deity.

I think within the Prim though, there is no hiearchy (sp?). I think the Prim are collectively and also individually powerful.

As for giving a reason why the cross/his faith worked for Callahan in the Dixie Pig, well in that where and that particular society (ie, ours) God is an existing concept - so he just tapped into what he believed was there.

[razz]

you know, i probably worded this wrong, but i really have no clue how to explain what i mean. :|

[Darkthoughts]

:lol: I get that all the time.

[Ves'Ka Gan]

Very interesting topic!

Forgive me for referenceing a completely different series to answer your question about the DT series, but in The Dresden Files Harry often makes the point that any faith is strong enough to work against the bad stuff. His faith rests in his family, so the amulet his mother gave him works for him, a priest would use a cross--it is the SYMBOL of the faith inside the man...(i.e. Harry couldn't use a cross and a priest couldn't use his amulet).

As for the Gan=God question. Good one. I often use the phrase "God, 'The Universe' or whatever higher power you believe in" when talking to people because it is *my* belief that God, Allah, The Universe, etc. are all the same entity, just understood differently. So on that basis, I would say that yes, Gan is the same as the Catholic God, or the Mormon God, Vishnu or Allah.

[The Lady of Shadows]

nice reference to the dresden files ves! :clap:

and actually you used harry dresden to say in many fewer words exactly what i was trying to express so thanks! :)

[LadyHitchhiker]

I :wub: Harry Dresden...

[ladysai]

Very interesting topic!

Forgive me for referenceing a completely different series to answer your question about the DT series, but in The Dresden Files Harry often makes the point that any faith is strong enough to work against the bad stuff. His faith rests in his family, so the amulet his mother gave him works for him, a priest would use a cross--it is the SYMBOL of the faith inside the man...(i.e. Harry couldn't use a cross and a priest couldn't use his amulet).

As for the Gan=God question. Good one. I often use the phrase "God, 'The Universe' or whatever higher power you believe in" when talking to people because it is *my* belief that God, Allah, The Universe, etc. are all the same entity, just understood differently. So on that basis, I would say that yes, Gan is the same as the Catholic God, or the Mormon God, Vishnu or Allah.

Well said!
The cross is simply a symbol, something to focus the faith onto. And anyone can use anything to symbolize their faith; and as long as their faith is true and strong, the symbol has power.

As far as Gan=God...
from what I understood from the DT series, Gan is the power of creation. All the grace and power that goes into creating something is the grace and power of Gan.
To me, this power is more believable as 'God' than any of the gods that organized religions put their faith into.
I cannot believe that there is only one true image or understanding of god, any more than I can believe there is only one type of creation.
That would be like saying there is only one true understanding of music or art, which is ridiculous, imho.

[Jean]

you know, i probably worded this wrong, but i really have no clue how to explain what i mean. :|
I'll only roughly sketch what I think, - because someone who is very dear to me asked me to; sorry for not being able to detail it at the moment:

1. I think you worded it very well. That's how I understood the question: is the book written the way that makes us suspect the writer believes there is a God? I think a positive answer to this is obvious.

2. This next

Is the Catholic god equivalent to Gan, are they the same entity?

is less obvious, - in fact, rather personal. Being a Catholic myself, I have always regarded this story as deeply Catholic (yes, I do know that, although a Christian, Sai King belongs to a different denomination, but I have always been sure that author's intentions don't matter shit: it's only the result that counts), and nothing in it ever clashes with my system of views in any way. I think (again, whatever his intentions) Sai King accurately described what the notion of religion in a world that has moved on so far that all coherency and consistency have been lost - of historical, cultural, and religious tradition first of all - and only some flotsam and jetsam are cast ashore; hence the eclecticism, paganism resurrected (for example, the archaic, primeval idea of "Gan's flesh"), inconsistence and often ridiculousness of those half-resurrected half-forgotten vestiges of beliefs. Answering your question (is Gan Catholic God?) - yes, for me he is, as people living in a world that has moved on could see and understand him.

[flaggwalkstheline]

one can interpret anything one wants to be about either sex or god lol
but one of the things i like about the dark tower is how it is a deeply spiritual story (good for me) but it doesnt pick a denomination/ specific faith which is something i would not have appreciated, its one of the reasons i was never a big cs lewis fan cause he kinda crammed christian allegory (which to a non christian is the same as catholic allegory- they all seem pretty much the same lol) down the readers throat especially in narnia
Sai King didnt go so far as tolkien did in his no recognizing faith- middle earth has no church, a fact that pissed of cs lewis who was one of his friends to no end, sai king basically says "yeah theyre all here, from variations on christianity to lovecraft-based chaos magick, that was really cool how all gods kinda exist simultaneously in the dark-tower worlds

[Wuducynn]

paganism resurrected (for example, the archaic, primeval idea of "Gan's flesh"), inconsistence and often ridiculousness of those half-resurrected half-forgotten vestiges of beliefs.

Most of that paganism was a lot more prevalent and practiced in Mid-World than Christianity, so there was no "resurrection", it was already there.

[Diggity Of The Eld]

I may be accidentally repeating someone else's point, but I don't think this has been clearly stated in this thread.


Gan IS the Tower. The Tower is Gan. Whatever Gan is, The Tower is Gan's physical representation.

Gan is a "God" of some type, but I don't think Gan is neccesarily the only "God" of Stephen King's multiverse. Maturin The Turtle obviously has a role in that.

It's said in Book 7 and it's said in Bev Vincent's "The Road To The Dark Tower" that The Dark Tower IS Gan.

To me that adds a lot of meaning that some people might not have caught onto. When Roland means to boldly walk into the Tower and demands it open before him, he is speaking directly to Gan.

A presumptuous tone to take with Gan, regardless of who Roland is.... and one of many reasons why Gan chose to push him through the turnstile just one more time...

[The Lady of Shadows]

:clap:

diggity that's what i've been saying in other threads. roland is one arrogant motherfucker. no matter how much we might like him, we must acknowledge this character flaw; and he must as well if he is ever going to get anywhere other than here.

[ladysai]

The tower is Gan?
Well then,
My response was waaaay off, wasn't it?
:(

[Wuducynn]

The tower is Gan?


Yep. It is.

[Jean]

The tower is Gan?
Well then,
My response was waaaay off, wasn't it?
:(
No, it wasn't.

[ladysai]

But, if the tower was Gan,
then Gan isnt a creative force/entitiy as I thought.
Or is he? (it?)

I've never been able to see any kind of divinity in an object, so the idea of Gan being the tower doesn't compute in my brain.
I could vaugely understand the relics of saints and such being seen as holding some power of faith, or divinity;
but, I can't see any god-like attributes of the tower.

[Jean]

It depends on the meaning of "is" in the sentence "The Tower is Gan". For me, "is" = "represents in the collective consciousness of people living in a world that has moved on"

[Diggity Of The Eld]

No no, you were right. Your response was not off.

Gan is the creative force in the universe, he is the one who set all this in motion, and he is omnipresent to some extent but his physical representation is the Tower, which is why if the Tower fell then Gan would die.

[Wuducynn]

but, I can't see any god-like attributes of the tower.

That's because we don't know much about everything it does in the series. But as Roland says at one point, (paraphrasing) "All things serve the Beam the saying goes, but all things really serve the Dark Tower".
Ladysai, you really should check out the graphic novel series mythology back stories when you get a chance, it talks all about origin of the Dark Tower/Gan, and the Crimson King and the worlds.

[ladysai]

Ladysai, you really should check out the graphic novel series mythology back stories when you get a chance, it talks all about origin of the Dark Tower/Gan, and the Crimson King and the worlds.

I'd like to, when I have the chance. Our library doesn't have graphic novels of any kind, and buying them is out of my budget at the moment.

[pathoftheturtle]

I think that SK wanted us to compare and contrast God and Gan: Unless you believe that none of the horrors of the multiverse in his novels are any worse than the horrors of the real world, it would seem that his fictional Creator is not equal.

IMHO, razz, Walter is indeed wrong about the top of the Tower being empty, and I do think that Gan is good... but I'm not absolutely sure, by any means. It is a good question, and a tough one to answer on the sole basis of King's novels.

[Ves'Ka Gan]

Ah, you're right--it is a little difficult to figure out if Gan is all good or not...but I would venture to say this makes Gan even more like the God most Christians accept--is He all good? The God of the Old Testament was Vengeful and angry--things Christians accept as "bad".

Food for thought.

[Diggity Of The Eld]

I think trying to attach labels like "good" or "evil" to a force of nature, albeit a fictional one like Gan is a bit short sighted, but it's a common thing for people to humanize large natural concepts to make them easier to grasp.

Gan isn't good or bad, Gan merely is.

[Diggity Of The Eld]

p.s. I hope the term "short-sighted" doesn't offend, but it's the only word to describe what I was saying. To assume Gan has "good" or "evil" qualities is to assume a lot of things we simply don't know.

A) assumes Gan has a personality
B) assumes Gan has free will
C) assumes Gan has human qualities, such as emotions to base these "good" or "evil" qualities on.

I hope I am making sense!!! :) :rose:

[Wuducynn]

I'm following you.

[pathoftheturtle]

Food for thought.Sure is.


...and razzle, there's no way this is not going to turn into a religious discussion on some level. but i think we're really discussion father callahan's religion. mayhap the religion of the entire series.Yes, it's different if we focus on discussing our different takes on the religious ideas in TDT than it would be if we got too far into our different RL beliefs.


...the power of the cross comes from the belief that the cross has power, just like the power of any religious symbol. ...I wouldn't put it quite that way; seems to imply that the power comes from the believer, which, I think, tends to contradict your view (that I very much agree with) that:
..i think that the father callahan who was sober and really, firmly grasped the idea that there was a power higher than himself (be it god, gan, the turtle, the bear, whatever) was willing and able to throw aside the cross and stand on his own. but when that happened, he wasn't on his own. in the lot, even holding the cross, he was on his own. he was abandoned by god because he had abandoned god. I think the turning point waswhen he faced Black 13.Until then, he still showed signs of the sin of pride, pride in his own tradition, and his own idea of God. True faith involves being open to truths which men cannot control.

[Wuducynn]

Okay, this is a spoiler thread, so enough with the damn spoiler tags!

[Diggity Of The Eld]

I'm following you.

Haha sweet. Thanks.

[Wuducynn]

Makes me wonder about when one of the Three Kings says "Big Red was always the crazy side of Gan" something along those lines.

[Diggity Of The Eld]

Ahhh, like the Crimson King and Gan are two aspects of the same being?

[Wuducynn]

More like Discordia or the Prim is a part of Gan too or maybe they are linked in some way. If you notice one of the windows at the top of the Dark Tower seems to represent Black 13. Also, Roland noticed that color of the roses mixed with the blood of eld was the same shade of crimson as those of the the Red King.

[jayson]

I'm glad you brought up that quote Matthew. To me it signifies that Gan, like "God" is not Good or Evil or any other category of description. Gan is transcendent of categories, beyond description. Los is part of Gan as all is part of Gan. It's a pretty common metaphor in religion.

[The Lady of Shadows]

pathoftheturtle you make an excellent point about father callahan facing black 13 and how it changed his viewpoint on certain matters. i'm not sure that he was still as arrogant as he was in the lot when he faced black 13 but it's possible that some of that arrogance remained even after everything he had been through during his travels and his death.

but facing black 13 would sure as hell take that out of anyone. plus, facing the cave of voices. that would certainly take the arrogance out of anyone. facing the two together might well unhinge a normal man, the father did well to survive it.

[pathoftheturtle]

pathoftheturtle you make an excellent point about father callahan facing black 13...Thank you. :)
...i'm not sure that he was still as arrogant as he was in the lot when he faced black 13 but it's possible that some of that arrogance remained even after everything he had been through during his travels and his death. ...That’s all I’m saying, yes, based on his actions in WotC. Certainly, I do think that he had progressed a great deal, but it often happens that little lessons add up to a major breakthrough, making big changes seem sudden. That scene in the hotel is really pivotal to the padre’s character: we see much in his thoughts and prayers there.
p.s. I hope the term "short-sighted" doesn't offend, but it's the only word to describe what I was saying. To assume Gan has "good" or "evil" qualities is to assume a lot of things we simply don't know.

A) assumes Gan has a personality
B) assumes Gan has free will
C) assumes Gan has human qualities, such as emotions to base these "good" or "evil" qualities on.

I hope I am making sense!!! :) :rose:I think it may be just that you’re assuming more than I do about the concept of good.

I wasn’t actually asserting any of those points, but I did indeed wish to raise the questions for this thread. I would say that it’s short-sighted to jump to the conclusion that Gan does not have a personality.
...When Roland means to boldly walk into the Tower and demands it open before him, he is speaking directly to Gan.

A presumptuous tone to take with Gan, regardless of who Roland is.... and one of many reasons why Gan chose to push him through the turnstile just one more time...“Chose” …? Doesn’t that imply free will?
If Gan is simply a force of nature, then why should it take it personally if someone tries to tame it?

And, what I’d really like to know is, does Gan always make the best choices? (Or, if you prefer, perform the natural functions analagous to choices, in some way that humanity might consider positive.) If the Tower is not all-wise and doesn’t care well for mankind, then what’s wrong with Roland’s attitude? Is it just that he should not dare to challenge Gan’s power?

[Ves'Ka Gan]

Path--you are making excellent points!

I think this conversation is turning into a path (no pun intended) where it will be interesting to see where people's opinions stand. I don't beleive there is any right or wrong answer. I choose to believe that Gan is more than a force of nature, if Gan were only a force of nature, would Gan need a name? Or would Gan be "nature"?

[Brice]

Path--you are making excellent points!

I think this conversation is turning into a path (no pun intended) where it will be interesting to see where people's opinions stand. I don't beleive there is any right or wrong answer. I choose to believe that Gan is more than a force of nature, if Gan were only a force of nature, would Gan need a name? Or would Gan be "nature"?

Gods don't need names. Men need them to have them though.

[Darkthoughts]

I instantly thought of this thread when rereading the comics this week.

I think we can safely assume that Gan is good and of the White, because the worlds he creates are innocent and good in nature. It's not until Maerlyn rises from the Prim that evil starts to invade the worlds.

In this respect Gan does mirror God. We could then speculate that Maerlyn mirrors the Devil - tempting man into evil and misdeeds, but the comics say that the CK is the devil/anti-christ (known by many names on different levels of the Tower). It's all a bit contradictory/confusing...but that's DT for ya :lol:

Unlike God though, Gan doesn't claim to be the creator of everything. He is a being of the Prim, like Maerlyn. He creates all possible worlds, but he hasn't created the fabric of existance itself.

[noja888]

I am not sure if I could say Gan is good, but I would agree she/he/it is Maybe of the white. But only if you consider the 'current' reality the Tower holds together the white. When the Prim receeded the duality of light/dark white/red began. Maybe Roland will introduce a third element in the balance of the Tower if he ever breaks the loop.:rose: I don't think Gan cares one way or the other - as long as the balance is held. But I will have to read the Graphic Novels to see if there is more information to change my perception. :ninja:

[pathoftheturtle]

Welcome, noja! Glad to have you contributing to our Town Commons. :) I'd like to see more discussion of those ideas about "the current reality." It's not so easy to define what "current" even signifies when there's already so much time-travel involved.
As for Gan, I think you're right on at least one point: unlike Jehovah, there's much about which he apparently does not care one way or the other.
...We could then speculate that Maerlyn mirrors the Devil - tempting man into evil and misdeeds......Except that the Laughing Mirror appears to distort human perception beyond the level Satan has the power to do. In the Judeo-Christian model, it was the knowledge of good and evil that led to mankind's fall.
...Unlike God though, Gan doesn't claim to be the creator of everything. He is a being of the Prim, like Maerlyn. He creates all possible worlds, but he hasn't created the fabric of existance itself.Absolutely key. Gan cannot claim highest authority, cannot have absolute power, is not "the Prime Mover, unmoved"...:orely:

[obscurejude]

Gan cannot claim highest authority, cannot have absolute power, is not "the Prime Mover, unmoved"...:orely:

Massive cool points for quoting Aristotle. :thumbsup:

That's all I'm capable of quoting at this wii hour.

[pathoftheturtle]

Thanks, Ryan. :) And don't worry; I totally understand you not wanting to get into it more: I get a little blurry myself when I play the Wii for hours. :lol:

To further clarify my point about the devil, in Christian theology he wants to get us to choose evil, in order to disgrace and displease the Lord, to Whom our opinion matters. In the TDT comics, though, making Gan look bad is apparently a lost cause, and Maerlyn really only cares about controlling things in the here and now, ruining the known multiverse. There's little concept of a final judgment or a higher order. The moral is given, prosaically, that we can choose to be good, but the back stories in The Gunslinger's Guidebook don't really make this sound possible. Get infected by the Mirror and, presto, you are evil... which would make sense, if your perceptions are all reversed. :orely:

Stephen King showed some pretty half-baked theology in Danse Macabre, but I think that he's grown wiser through his years of heavy reading. Mia, in DT6, brings up that she does not know if God created magic or if magic created God, and says that that is a question for the scholars. I think it was a good idea to leave it vague; there are scholars reading who understand all of the implications there. Yet, again, Robin Furth prefers to treat the DT mythology literally, as if Mid-World were an independent fantasy, like Middle Earth. This makes it all a more distinct work, but also less relevant.

[shannaawarp]

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[LadyHitchhiker]

Gan is good
Gan is great
Gan will grow again...

[pathoftheturtle]

If Gan is not God then what is Gan? If the Dark Tower is not Gan then what is the Dark Tower? Seriously, maybe someone could explain details of alternative theory.
Some people believe in a conscious Being who judges between good and evil. Other people believe in an unconscious Force that maintains karmic balance. But why should these groups have to argue? Just what difference does it make?

[LadyHitchhiker]

It makes all the difference in all universes to some people.

[pathoftheturtle]

If Gan is not God then what is Gan? If the Dark Tower is not Gan then what is the Dark Tower? Seriously, maybe someone could explain details of alternative theory.
Some people believe in a conscious Being who judges between good and evil. Other people believe in an unconscious Force that maintains karmic balance. But why should these groups have to argue? Just what difference does it make?It makes all the difference in all universes to some people.
Well, yeah, but fabric softener makes all the difference to SOME people. lol
The question is "Why?" ... exactly what is the difference? If an unconsciousness has enough complexity to do what consciousness does then you can distinguish the two how?
I don't think I get your point, unless you're suggesting that what's important about this can't be put into words.

[LadyHitchhiker]

I know this isn't supposed to really be a religious discussion, but I believe that God is a loving and forgiving God. Soooooooo therefore, he can't really be evil, can he?

[pathoftheturtle]

Is it good to forgive evil?
If God is all good, and God created everything, does it mean that nothing that exists is evil?
I'm actually not so worried that we're going off-topic too far into religious philosophy, because I think that how Gan can permit the bad things that happen in the world is just what Roland wanted to find out. This is still religious themes of TDT as far as I can tell. What more concerns me is that we're going to wander off onto TDT questions covered in other Mid-World threads.

I must admit that I ask this from the motive of trying to account for the ending. --

If God is perfect in justice then He always follows all of His own laws of righteousness.
So is God the mind that governs the law or is God the law that governs the mind?
Did personality create idealism or did the ideal create the personal?

[LadyHitchhiker]

I always thought that God created the universe, and the universe and all in conception were inherently good. However, he gave us free will, so he lets us mess up stuff if we want to, but he is ultimately forgiving. So the whole concept of the tower degenerating, I would think is because it was a construct - rather that be "man"made or God-made I'm not sure - and if it truly holds the universes together, I would think God (or Gan what have you) would want to keep "allowing" happy coincidences to happen to allow for it to be saved.

I think it's good to forgive evil. It takes a deity to actually be able to make one forget it, but you can forgive. You can endlessly forgive, but as far as us mere mortals, that doesn't mean that we have to keep letting more evil into our lives and be fools.

[Merlin1958]

I know this isn't supposed to really be a religious discussion, but I believe that God is a loving and forgiving God. Soooooooo therefore, he can't really be evil, can he?

Just shooting spitballs here, but if God is the "ALL Powerful" and has a plan and is not evil, why would he allow EVIL to exist or have any impact on his plan? Why would "God" in his infinite wisdom allow for pedophiles, for instance? Just curious.

Edit: I am very well versed in the "free-will" argument, but it doesn't really seem to hold up here. You simply cannot have your cake and eat it. Not a "believer either way" just illustrating things I suppose.

[pathoftheturtle]

:doh: You see? Now this is like the topic of my thread ka=Gan? (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?9265-ka-Gan-**Spoilers-entire-series**) which I had really hoped would take off. Basically, to start, we'd need to make sure that we're clear on the meaning of good and evil.

And then this --
... the whole concept of the tower degenerating, I would think is because it was a construct - rather that be "man"made or God-made I'm not sure...would help move Was the tower ever under threat? (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?12178-Was-the-tower-ever-under-threat-spoilers&goto=newpost) forward.

[LadyHitchhiker]

Perhaps because it is not in human's nature to remain good? We need the struggle in order to find goodness? Without evil, how can we be good?

[pathoftheturtle]

You see what I mean then? That goes to the question of what the threat to the Tower means. If the Tower represents Gan's connection to creation, then Roland's task is to maintain humanity's chance to be saved from ourselves rather than to save Gan from us. We should try to settle here whether Gan's connection to creation actually is what it represents, then crossover to work more on the topic of whether what it does to the timestream in the books somehow serves the greater good or just adds to mankind's problems.

Also bear in mind that demons and superhuman evils appear to have more real power over the worlds of TDT than what they're allowed according to Christian doctrine.

[LadyHitchhiker]

I absolutely agree with that statement. For some reason, the baddies have a lot more power over these worlds... Perhaps because it is not OUR Earth, not OUR world?