PDA

View Full Version : Cultural isolation, cultural relevance and assimilation



Jon
08-29-2008, 12:56 AM
I have heard of the arrogance of Americans. I have seen a post here by my good friend and great bear Jean, that stated, (paraphrased) “When I read books written in America It seems the author thinks America is the whole world. When I read authors outside of the United States, it is clear the author sees the whole world.”

I wonder if folks around the world understand our isolation. I would have to travel 9 hours to reach the next country (Canada) there is very little difference between the American culture and the Canadian culture. Due to instability, only a few resorts in Mexico were deemed “safe enough” to visit for much of my lifetime. Once again, only the upper middle and upper class Americans could afford these resorts, much less the travel and time off work. It has only been about 10 years since prices of travel to, and stay at these resorts were within the financial reach of middle class Americans (lower middle class Americans still remain locked out of such vacations.)

Yes there are international airlines, but up until the last 15 years or so, such flights could not be afforded by the common American.

One can then point to the internet. The internet started with the Soviet launch of Sputnik 1 1957…I think). At that time only these folks’ government had access. The Americans soon followed. But access was to government agencies only. In 1990, just as the U.S.S.R’s unions were faltering, the National Science Foundation took over management of what was then called the NSFNet, and significantly expanded its reach by connecting it to the CSNET in Universities throughout North America, and later to the EUnet throughout research facilities in Europe. Now free to all, but the common American could not afford a PC in 1990. At or about 1997, the prices on PC’s became more reasonable and accessible to the lower middle class of America (there was a HUGE explosion in internet users in 1997.)


The common American has only about 11 years (VIA the internet) to integrate with the world. That means 285 million people have had just over half of a generation (11 years) to integrate with the remaining 6 billion people (I realize not the entire human race is online but I hope you get my point.)

So why do we act like we are the world… because from 1776 until 1997, we were our world. Other cultures were people in text books and other countries were just on our maps and played in the Olympics against us.

We act like the world because our eyes have only comparatively recently been opened. We are ignorant (I mean that in its strictest definition) of much of the balance of humanity.

Jean
08-29-2008, 02:04 AM
hmm

hmmmmmmmm

I have grown in a country where nobody could ever go abroad (only chosen few that could go to one of the "socialist" countries... the chosen few who went to "capitalist" ones didn't belong to the "population", they were all party leaders) and where having a friend abroad was something hardly heard of. Behind the iron curtain, in other words. Which cut my country off the rest of the world for 70 (seventy) years.

My dear friends here may have noticed that I am rather conversant with your culture... and with that of European countries, too.

Maybe I am extraordinary? No. Maybe I got all that information in the post-communist era? No again. I could never have appropriated it as a part of my own intellectual/cultural/spiritual experience if I hadn't been introduced to it very early in life.

What books did we - I mean, we all, the whole Soviet Russia (statistically, "the most reading country in the world" we read because we had no life, but it's another story) - read? Don't forget I am talking now about a country which has hundreds great, thousand thoroughly wonderful, and innumerable readable, quite satisfactory, writers. Well, in addition to all the great literature of our own, as kids we all read Winnie the Pooh, Mary Poppins, Alice... nursery rhymes and English ballads... Andersen... we never thought of separating "ours" from "not ours", they were all ours, you see. All those far-away countries with their foreign-sounding names were ours, we integrated into their culture from the cradle. Astrid Lindgren, Gianni Rodari (did you hear of those ones?), they were all published and re-published, in outstanding translations which put those books into the best, most natural sounding Russian... because we've always had always had a real big School of translation, and our big writers and poets gladly busied themselves with rendering someone else's writings into their precious Russian - to make it accessible to everyone.

Translated, and published, and illustrated... and supplied with forewords, commentaries, and afterwords, explaining everything a Soviet reader might not understand... Swift and Rabelais came in version adapted for children as well as in "adult" translations. There were no borders for us, not really.

Every Soviet teenager let the characters of Jack London, Conan Coyle, Dumas, Stephenson, Jules Verne and Raphael Sabatini into his heart; they were his friends and best teachers. Then Dickens, Twain, Chesterton... Poe, Defoe, Harper Lee! Salinger and Vonnegut, you name it, Maupassant and Balzac, Stendhal and Akutagava, they were all ours. Hemingway and Bradbury. Hell, it looks I could go on forever, and I am only mentioning those whom everybody read. Every fucking body.

Of course, the horrible pressure of ideology... Oh, come on. OK, Gone With the Wind were not published, because Margaret Mitchell had a different view on the black population than the one accepted by Soviet people who all grew up on Uncle Tom's Cabin. Some sexually explicit scenes were, I suspect, removed from books and movies. Orwell was out of the question. So what? All others were there for us. They were part of our culture.

And movies, of course! How much better I know French or Italian movies than all my American friends, and by "all" I mean "all". Our own cinema of the Soviet time was - to my mind - the best in the world (too bad you would never see it; and even if you do, you won't have enough background to understand a word... understanding should have been cultivated since babyhood, like our understanding of your culture...), and in addition to it we had all them Europeans, and love of our people for their actors and directors are such that is possible only for those who is part of your own inner world.

Isolation! A student of mine was talking to an American girl who came to work here... My student said she was going to Portugal; the American replied, "Oh, how interesting, I've never been to Latin America." Sweet. Every kid I've ever known here had a map or a globe; do you really have to cross the Atlantic to get one? (Also... how come we know you, inspite of you being so remote? Why has the process been so one-sided?)

History! At school, we have world history, it is compulsory. American history including, and European, of course, too. We do not separate ourselves from the world. We know your history, do you know ours? The answer, my friend, is blowing the big hairy one. Ask an average American (present company, i hope, excluded - I have evidence to suppose you, unlike me, who is a perfectly average Russian, are not average Americans) between whom and whom was World War Two, and who won. I have tried that experiment a few times, and the results were too shocking even for me.

See all that? Isolation is not created by the impossibility of traveling or making direct contacts. It's cultural policy. Those who spent all their lives behind the "iron curtain" here were deeply integrated into world's culture.

When I first came to Paris (and then to Berlin, and then to London), I was taking Parisians (Berliners, Londoners) around their city, explaining which is which and what it is famous for. Of course, France always felt like another motherland for every Russian... But we could have lost it, and we didn't. We have an alternative cultural motherland everywhere.

So, - cui prodest? I think it is obvious. Any ignorance is what allows those at power to manipulate people. You, at least some of you, probably believe, for example, that there was such a period in history as Russian occupation of Estonia (or, say, Latvia) during Soviet times, or other similar nonsense. I can't blame you for that. When someone doesn't have any idea of the countries in question, or of their history before the period in question, or what actually happened during that period, he can be sold anything. That Russia attacked Georgia, among fresher lies. Or don't even get me started on what you were made to believe about Yougoslavia when there still was a Yougoslavia, and about what remained of it when there wasn't.

If part, or - worse - the whole rest of the world is unknown, anything can be believed about it. And another aspect of the same: hearing about a bombing of a far-away country (of course it is always horrible... in an abstract humanist way, like "they are people, too") would feel absolutely different if it was a country whose culture you had known from childhood, whose writers created characters who became your friends, and whom you let into your heart.

Darkthoughts
08-29-2008, 02:23 AM
I would echo much of what Jean has said. American History was compulsory when I was at school too. Much of our literature, film and other media has been predominantly American since the beginning of the 1900's at least.

To my mind, America's dischordance with the rest of the world is not so much due to isolation, but more to the youth of America as a modern society...I can't describe what I mean entirely, but when I think of different cultures and societies from around the world, America stands out as the teenager of the global family.

Jean
08-29-2008, 02:33 AM
I would echo much of what Jean has said. American History was compulsory when I was at school too. Much of our literature, film and other media has been predominantly American since the beginning of the 1900's at least.
yes... and now, how about French or Italian or Spanish or Russian? American cultural expansion is something most European countries are aware of (and many people there not too happy about), but I have noticed that most other cultures are regrettably ignored.


To my mind, America's dischordance with the rest of the world is not so much due to isolation, but more to the youth of America as a modern society...I can't describe what I mean entirely, but when I think of different cultures and societies from around the world, America stands out as the teenager of the global family.
Very well said!
yes... culture consists of such small things that it accumulates in the course of long centuries... traditions and their rejection, rise and fall of religions, schools of moral and immorality, and primitive art (not primitivist) getting more and more complex and back again, and people learning to speak their thoughts and sing their hearts, and all the great loads of what is of no practucal value... all that can't be reproduced within a few decades, and can't be imitated... especially if the prevailing view (historically) was to get rid of all useless junk that should sink with the old world, and good riddance...

Darkthoughts
08-29-2008, 02:44 AM
yes... and now, how about French or Italian or Spanish or Russian? American cultural expansion is something most European countries are aware of (and many people there not too happy about), but I have noticed that most other cultures are regrettably ignored.
Very true. History begins in UK schools with Ancient history (Prehistoric man, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Celts etc) in primary school and then progresses through the ages (Medieval England, Agricultural and Industrial Revolutions, Elizabethans, Tudors, Victorians etc). Within that we learn of other European countries only when we've "discovered", invaded or become allied through royal marriage...which is rather arrogant! But then, alot of history seems an excercise in egotism to me.

We learn Modern History at around 13/14 - which is basically WW2 and then Russian, American, German history...possibly Japan? I didn't pursue it, I chose to do Social and Economic History instead.

Jon
08-29-2008, 04:13 AM
Pardon my ignorance Jean, but was the Soviet Union not a collection of various cultures?

If so, then cultural diversity was already in existence, if not, I have yielded to propaganda once again. The truth is we (common folks) know so little of the make up of the U.S.S.R. It goes without saying, then, that we know less of the make up of the former Soviet States.

On another note;you claim your people know of the U.S. culture. Are you certain of that? We have just ended a mighty cold war (It seems like yesterday to we older folks) and I would like to respectfully remind you that propaganda is a two-way street. Given this, how can you be so sure you know of our culture?


And yes, World History as taught in America is a joke and shameful.

Jean
08-29-2008, 04:36 AM
Pardon my ignorance Jean, but was the Soviet Union not a collection of various cultures?

If so, then cultural diversity was already in existence, if not, I have yielded to propaganda once again. The truth is we (common folks) know so little of the make up of the U.S.S.R. It goes without saying, then, that we know less of the make up of the former Soviet States.
It's ablolutely true that it was a collection of various cultures! My main point was that in addition to all that we were constantly exposed to endless flow of information about other cultures, European, American, or Asiatic.


On another note;you claim your people know of the U.S. culture. Are you certain of that? We have just ended a mighty cold war (It seems like yesterday to we older folks) and I would like to respectfully remind you that propaganda is a two-way street.
First of all, there has never been any cold war against you here. We were always taught to believe, even in the darkest times, that the USA was a great country (our ally in the Great War, among other things - which was always important to us) which, unfortunately, suffer under horrible government... that point of view may have been naive, but it was never aggressive or in any way urging us to repell anything "good" ("bad" was only pornography, although I agree that its frames were wider than what we understand unders this word now, direct anti-soviet propaganda, and some aspects of violence; the rest was "good") coming from you.

Naive, yes... we loved your Magnificent Seven, and brave young girls by Deanna Durbin, and Uncle Tom, of course, and Pathfinder... we were always on the side of the oppressed, the Indians or the Black or the poor... that was how propaganda worked... and at a'that... we always had enough sources to be able to think for ourselves.


Given this, how can you be so sure you know of our culture?
So, there's no "this"... answering this question generally, I believe that since I have read most of your books, seen most of your movies (including those most young Americans hardly know of), have an idea of what your arts are like and a quite satisfactory amount of information on your history and social structure, as well as having followed your current politics not in the interpretation of our commentators, but in genuine chronicles and speech transcripts, I can say I have some idea, yes; what makes you think otherwise? I have listed only those source any Soviet man had access to; now, of course, there's a lot more.

cozener
08-29-2008, 05:21 AM
I don't believe anyone can truly "know" a culture unless they've lived in it for many years...if not been born and raised in it. That said, there are other things about one's own culture that he is inclined to be blind to precisely because he was raised in it. Sometimes, it takes an outsider's perspective. When I'm being an arrogant ass, you can bet that I have no idea that I am being an arrogant ass and won't until someone points it out to me. Sometimes it takes a friend or a marriage counselor to see why an estranged couple is splitting apart. And it sometimes takes an outsider to see a culture's strengths, idiosyncrasies, and shortcomings. This goes for anyone, any culture, anywhere.

Jean
08-29-2008, 05:56 AM
I don't believe anyone can truly "know" a culture unless they've lived in it for many years...if not been born and raised in it. That said, there are other things about one's own culture that he is inclined.
I think this is a little different aspect, which would bring us too far from the topic. Following this way of reasoning, we could also say that even if you are born and raised inside a culture, you still know only this little corner of a given culture where you spend your life: this social background, this type of slang, etc; "truly" knowing anything at all is a very difficult thing indeed. Just... let's not exaggerate and lose the point of view of common sense. I maintain that if you have been exposed to literature, cinema, music, poetry, and history of a given country, you can say that you are acquainted with its culture; while when all you know is what your politician say or what your own movies*/books show/tell, you know only your own current propaganda.

* it's always been a mystery to me, for example, why American producers can't invite a Russian consultant? Why do allegedly Russian people have such names as "Drago"? There's never been such a name here. Why do they talk in a language nobody ever talked? OK, cold war, all that, we all must be depicted as Bad Guys with discernable features of degeneration, but why such names and such language?

Jean
08-29-2008, 06:29 AM
In case I have been too vague: no, I do not believe that the cultural and educational policy of our government made us experts in American culture, fit to give advice and all that. What they did was to give us amply opportunity to love you, and to know what we love you for.

and oops... I forgot Jack London... I bet I forgot many others, because they were such an integral part of our context I don't really think of them as foreigners... Yes, in almost every house there was multy-volumed (eight, I think? or nine?) collection of his novels and stories, most of which every boy and half the girls considered a matter of personal honor to know almost by heart... I'll add him to that post, it doesn't look all right without him.

cozener
08-29-2008, 07:38 AM
I don't believe anyone can truly "know" a culture unless they've lived in it for many years...if not been born and raised in it. That said, there are other things about one's own culture that he is inclined.
I think this is a little different aspect, which would bring us too far from the topic. Following this way of reasoning, we could also say that even if you are born and raised inside a culture, you still know only this little corner of a given culture where you spend your life: this social background, this type of slang, etc; "truly" knowing anything at all is a very difficult thing indeed. Just... let's not exaggerate and lose the point of view of common sense. I maintain that if you have been exposed to literature, cinema, music, poetry, and history of a given country, you can say that you are acquainted with its culture; while when all you know is what your politician say or what your own movies*/books show/tell, you know only your own current propaganda. Not saying you can't be acquainted with a culture in this way but "acquainted" is about as much as you're going to get. I don't expect to really know what it means to be Russian by reading Russian authors, watching Russian movies, or reading up on Russian history. Besides, as has been pointed out already, there are many cultures that make up Russia. Whatever media I am exposed to would be its own cultural filter. I'd be looking at Russia through the eyes of someone that might have very little in common with some other Russian. The US, while perhaps not as culturally diverse as Russia, is still culturally diverse. Every region with its own particular flavor. I can't see how being exposed to the arts and literature of a culture (things that are subjective...representative of how the artists and authors see the culture...artists and authors of any country being known for seeing things in different ways than others and often being a little different than other folks around them) can make a person truly understand what it is to be of that culture. But acquainted? Yes...absolutely.


* it's always been a mystery to me, for example, why American producers can't invite a Russian consultant? Why do allegedly Russian people have such names as "Drago"? There's never been such a name here. Why do they talk in a language nobody ever talked? OK, cold war, all that, we all must be depicted as Bad Guys with discernable features of degeneration, but why such names and such language? Lol, because Drago sounds like an evil, mean ass euroasiatic dude with a militaristic accent. Yeah...its stupid. You must understand that some people in entertainment industry play to the lowest common denominator....or rather...what they think is the lowest common denominator...something they're sadly mistaken on. I once heard an interview with the director of Master and Commander. In the book, the antagonists' ship that the heroes (British) were fighting and pursuing was an American vessel. They changed it for the movie to a French ship because they didn't want the American audience to be "confused". You gotta be fucking kidding me. I don't think I've ever been so offended by something thats come out of a directors mouth.

But the movie you're talking about...Rocky 4 (I think) was influenced, not only by Cold War ideas, but also by WWII ideas. Ever since the 1940s we've had a villain archtype burned into our minds of the Nazi superman...a big blond haired, blue eyed villain with a harsh accent. Drago and his wife fit into this mold (even though they’re playing Slavs there is still this mental connection. Rocky is the classic American mutt and an underdog to boot. Everyone loves an underdog…except maybe the British :lol:

You’re right though. If you’re going to have a movie with Russians in it you should damn well have someone around that knows about Russians.

Jean
08-29-2008, 08:01 AM
Cozener - I added another short post, right before yours. You see, of course, that we agree on all main point; we may slightly differ on what "culture" means, or what "know" means, or other such subtleties, but we basically dont differ that much anyway. It's all about attitude, not expertise; that's what that "acquaintance" is for. That, and becoming increasingly impenetrable for manipulations with every grain of information received - especially when the information is of primarily spiritual or emotional nature, or both. http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

alinda
08-29-2008, 08:12 AM
My oppinion is harsher stll, ( I think) I think it is preposterous to say we've been in isolation, unless you believe that our leaders have isolated us from the truth. I would speculate that any seprarteness is caused by bigotry and appathy for our fellow man.
I know, I know what this sounds like. But we are spoiled here (IMO) and the general public do not even remember there are other people on the planet. I see folk every day who can not see past their own nose!I am not all together think it is an American problem, but I'll bet we outshine our fellowman 5 to 1 . Sorry, but I think its time
our human race wake up to their state of mind, ......ignorance! (((((hugs))) to you all.

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:wake up :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

cozener
08-29-2008, 09:21 AM
Cozener - I added another short post, right before yours. You see, of course, that we agree on all main point oops :blush: We have our own little detente then :)

VastOne
08-29-2008, 10:31 AM
This is a very good discussion and one that is difficult for me. I have taken all morning to think about my reply and at the risk of pissing a whole lot of folks off, I cannot deny how I feel.

I HATE what we have been, done and become here as Americans and in America.

From the hatred and slaughter of Native Americans, to the extreme racism and slave history, to the horrors of how soldiers were treated in several wars and to the arrogance of shoving our "sacred values" of democracy down the throats of nations thousands of years older than us, I am DISGUSTED.

I value Jean's input and discussion and am actually amazed to hear that he was taught to honor us as allies while we have been been programmed to see his great culture and people as an evil empire. It is something I will share with my children both as an opportunity and something for them to use to break the cycle of ignorance.

Obviously there has been a tremendous amount of good here and a great many wonderful people. Our culture is rich in many ways and we have produced incredible results. From a world perspective, we have not even reached 9 years of age in history, which many believe the actual age a child enters cognitive thought.

I will end this rant by saying that the current leadership here is and has been a freaking joke. We have used a horrible tragic incident to impose even more of our righteousness onto not only to a country proven to have nothing to do with it, but also upon our own people by spying on this e-mail and the phone I will make later on.

I also see way too much of "look at me" "image is everything" in so many people, while they walk right by a person dying because they cannot get insurance to go to the hospital.

What have we become? I am not sure, but I do not like it.....:angry:

I will apologize to anyone I offend in advance....

alinda
08-29-2008, 10:34 AM
I agree with you.....so if were going to appoligise, then I am sorry to.

cozener
08-29-2008, 10:51 AM
Yeah this country has really gone south in the last 8 years. But I'm not going to apologize for it. I had nothing to do with it. I didn't vote for Bush or any of his cadre. And when people not from this country look at us and say that we're ignorant...well...when I consider that Bush was elected twice I lose confidence in my ability to argue against this statement. I just shrug and say that I'm not convinced that these 2 elections were entirely legit.

jayson
08-29-2008, 10:58 AM
when I consider that Bush was elected twice I lose confidence in my ability to argue against this statement. I just shrug and say that I'm not convinced that these 2 elections were entirely legit.

As a Florida resident, I will always be sure 2000 was illegitimate, but that only casts further doubts on our country. It shows that we don't have a press that would dare investigate the truth to it's complete end or a populous that would demand that truth in the election process. That he was able to become President at all is a national disgrace.

Rjeso
08-29-2008, 11:10 AM
when I consider that Bush was elected twice I lose confidence in my ability to argue against this statement. I just shrug and say that I'm not convinced that these 2 elections were entirely legit.

As a Florida resident, I will always be sure 2000 was illegitimate, but that only casts further doubts on our country. It shows that we don't have a press that would dare investigate the truth to it's complete end or a populous that would demand that truth in the election process. That he was able to become President at all is a national disgrace.

Find a DVD called "Uncounted." It will reveal things about the election that were covered up, such as the blatant manipulation of votes in Ohio that I had never heard of until I saw this documentary.

VastOne
08-29-2008, 11:28 AM
when I consider that Bush was elected twice I lose confidence in my ability to argue against this statement. I just shrug and say that I'm not convinced that these 2 elections were entirely legit.

As a Florida resident, I will always be sure 2000 was illegitimate, but that only casts further doubts on our country. It shows that we don't have a press that would dare investigate the truth to it's complete end or a populous that would demand that truth in the election process. That he was able to become President at all is a national disgrace.

IMHO the "press" is as much to blame for many things as anyone else... Good ole RM owns so much and has the movers and shakers in his pockets... Cowards shilling pathetic swill for capitalistic gain...

jayson
08-29-2008, 11:50 AM
Find a DVD called "Uncounted." It will reveal things about the election that were covered up, such as the blatant manipulation of votes in Ohio that I had never heard of until I saw this documentary.

Seen it. That and Unprecedented about the Florida election in 2000. Both should be mandatory viewing in schools.



IMHO the "press" is as much to blame for many things as anyone else... Good ole RM owns so much and has the movers and shakers in his pockets... Cowards shilling pathetic swill for capitalistic gain...

I agree, but it's too easy to blame it on Murdoch. We should expect FoxNews to get it wrong. It's the 200 year old newspapers that failed to question things that make me believe the press is not once it once was. I worked for a NPR station at during the buildup to the invasion of Iraq. I saw firsthand how a newsroom can ignore the issues. They refused to question our local representatives about their votes on the invasion. The whole myth of America having a "liberal media bias" is utter nonsense, and quite frankly, sickens me.

alinda
08-29-2008, 11:58 AM
I was only appologising to you all who were reading my drivel....:cool:
I am grateful, that my family taught me that I belonged to the human race,
That there were no need to consider national lines, or 7 oceans, that as a
planet we were one . As a family we were one. etc....I still have a hard time
telling those who ask, why I do not vote. I follow the guidlines rules and laws
to the best of my abilities:pirate:, no matter who is in office, to me they all fall short
of honesty themselves. So, I no longer openly defy the gov. I do not protest
or join sit ins, as I did as a teenaged hippie, thinking we could change the world.
I keep my nose to the grindstone, pay my taxes, and usually spare others of my feelings on the subject. With that said....:ninja:<end rant>

Rjeso
08-29-2008, 12:01 PM
*totallyagreeswithLinda*

VastOne
08-29-2008, 12:04 PM
I was only appologising to you all who were reading my drivel....:cool:
I am grateful, that my family taught me that I belonged to the human race,
That there were no need to consider national lines, or 7 oceans, that as a
planet we were one . As a family we were one. etc....I still have a hard time
telling those who ask, why I do not vote. I follow the guidlines rules and laws
to the best of my abilities:pirate:, no matter who is in office, to me they all fall short
of honesty themselves. So, I no longer openly defy the gov. I do not protest
or join sit ins, as I did as a teenaged hippie, thinking we could change the world.
I keep my nose to the grindstone, pay my taxes, and usually spare others of my feelings on the subject. With that said....:ninja:<end rant>

Sweet Alinda,

I think that those old hippie ways need to be rediscovered and protests are needed. There was a lot accomplished then that put the focus on right where it was needed....bless you all!

It seems impossible now to get anyone passionate enough to stand up for a cause. People love to talk about it but sit back and do nothing about it. Is it fear? Apathy?

Personally, I think apathy is a very effective tool....

alinda
08-29-2008, 12:18 PM
[QUOTE=alinda;238925]. I would speculate that any seprarteness is caused by bigotry and appathy for our fellow man.

Yep me too.

Matt
08-29-2008, 02:17 PM
I personally believe that there are people in all countries that are ignorant to the rest of the world and happily so. Its not an American thing, it is a human thing.

I do not believe this country is perfect but I do thing we have not done more harm than good in this world even in the last 8 years. I believe we have a right to pride in our country and I am really looking forward to the day when we are no longer the only superpower because we find ourselves in a situation where nothing we can do is right.

I'm not sure what kind of schools people went to but I was personally taught all kinds of stuff about the world and ancient cultures in school, but more over, I left school and learned more on my own. I am not alone I do not believe. No one ever convinced me anyone was an "evil empire". Not even Iraq or Iran now because I believe that is politics, not people.

I'm not trying to start a fight but I believe the US has not been as bad as folks make out. Just much more visible in our mistakes.

alinda
08-29-2008, 02:49 PM
Its not an American thing, it is a human thing.
:clap:

valtr0n
08-29-2008, 03:58 PM
Americans aren't even educated about their own culture and history. How can anyone possibly expect them to know anything about the rest of the world?

razz
08-29-2008, 04:04 PM
well here's something i really don't like about us Americans. We really have no say in our own futures until we are a certain age, but by then, the organizations that have made Americans what we are, have already had a go at us YEARS ago. Not that our fuck ups aren't our fault. i take responsibility like any man (or lady), but our policy of Isolationism from the early 20th century just proves how dumb many of us are.

Jon
08-30-2008, 12:18 AM
First of all, there has never been any cold war against you here. We were always taught to believe, even in the darkest times, that the USA was a great country (our ally in the Great War, among other things - which was always important to us) which, unfortunately, suffer under horrible government... that point of view may have been naive, but it was never aggressive or in any way urging us to repell anything "good" ("bad" was only pornography, although I agree that its frames were wider than what we understand unders this word now, direct anti-soviet propaganda, and some aspects of violence; the rest was "good") coming from you.



Jean, you cannot know how utterly FUCKING STUNNED to read your words. I always assumed the propaganda was two-way. We had "mock attacks." We would dive under our desks as children in school (because EVEYONE knows an ICBM cannot penetrate a school desk.) We were told many times to not eat the snow because the "commies" tested a nuclear device near Alaska and we were down wind (we are about 4,000 miles from The Bering Strait LOL.) As children we were scared to death of the great red bear. A typical playground insult (about 7 years of age) was "You "Commie!"

Im my very rural home we had 4 sources of news, CBS,NBC,ABC and the county newspaper (We couldn't get a signal from the precurser to the NPR...too far "out.".) All media we had access to penned the USSR as an evil people (notice not "nation") bent on world domination. The pablum puked by Senator Joseph Raymond McCarthy in the 1950's, was still being "preached." His "red witch hunt out lived him. red witch hunt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_McCarthy)

I now feel so ashamed of my behavior as a child!! But I am happy to read your words. My heart raced with joy when I read your post, then the things I did and said as a boy came back to me in a crashing wave of shame.

Jean, you know how highly I think of you; you have brought joy, you have brought truth. I feel shame,.

KaLikeAWheel
08-30-2008, 04:19 AM
This is an incredibly interesting thread! I gotta say that Vast's initial post is pretty much what I'd say word for word. Especially this: "I value Jean's input and discussion and am actually amazed to hear that he was taught to honor us as allies while we have been been programmed to see his great culture and people as an evil empire. It is something I will share with my children both as an opportunity and something for them to use to break the cycle of ignorance."

I'm a died-in-the-wool skeptic. I know that what we're taught in our schools and what our media and government tell us often has little resemblence to reality, but I have to admit that I bought the propaganda, too. I've often had reasons to be ashamed of the American government lately, but never moreso than I am right now. In our so-called "free" society, with its "free" press and freedom of speech, it's atrocious that such lies could be so pervasive. I am also ashamed of myself, because I'm sure I could have found the truth if I had bothered to look, but in my defense the "Evil Russia" attitude was fed to me from the cradle and it never occured to me to question that 1950's attitude. I'm pretty much disgusted with myself right now.

When you stop to consider how stunned all we Americans are at the true way Jean was taught to think of our country, it pretty much proves that we're a bunch of cultural children who cannot be bothered to pay attention to anywhere outside our borders.

I believe that America is a wonderful country. I like living here. As a woman I have oportunities here I would never have in other parts of the world, but this country has the potential to be so much greater if only we could broaden our vision to the rest of the world.

All of this is, of course, only my opinion. I will not apologize for it, but I truly did not wish to offend.

Donna

Jean
08-30-2008, 04:36 AM
I personally believe that there are people in all countries that are ignorant to the rest of the world and happily so. Its not an American thing, it is a human thing.
Certainly... but I am afraid the USA is one of those (hopefully, few?) countries where this attitude achieved the status of state policy.


We had "mock attacks." We would dive under our desks as children in school (because EVEYONE knows an ICBM cannot penetrate a school desk.) We were told many times to not eat the snow because the "commies" tested a nuclear device near Alaska and we were down wind (we are about 4,000 miles from The Bering Strait LOL.) As children we were scared to death of the great red bear. A typical playground insult (about 7 years of age) was "You "Commie!"

Im my very rural home we had 4 sources of news, CBS,NBC,ABC and the county newspaper (We couldn't get a signal from the precurser to the NPR...too far "out.".) All media we had access to penned the USSR as an evil people (notice not "nation") bent on world domination. The pablum puked by Senator Joseph Raymond McCarthy in the 1950's, was still being "preached." His "red witch hunt out lived him. red witch hunt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_McCarthy)
We knew all that, of course... only here the official propaganda went, like, "the imperialistic government of the USA, pursuing their own foul aims, tries to blindfold their hard-working, talented, friendly people with foul lies!" And... two sad things followed, I don't know which is sadder...

1. We didn't believe. We didn't fucking believe you really were told such lies about us. We were told about "mock attacks" you have and all the rest of it that you mention in your post... and we didn't believe. By the time I describe (seventies till mid-eighties) we had been all firmly convinced that ours is the most ridiculous, the most absurd propaganda possible, so no wonder it tells us lies about your propaganda, exaggerating and overblowing, and, well - just lying. Because surely no propaganda but Soviet could be that stupid!

2. We were sure that even if you are exposed to at least some amount of such propaganda, you didn't believe it, just like we did't believe ours... Surely, we thought and said to each other, the people of the USA couldn't believe such things, they were not idiots, were they? Surely they had access to information that would let them see that we are no monsters, that we are people like them? That we, too, want to live in peace, etc, etc, etc...

Donna: no, we weren't really taught "true way", either... we were taught to believe that American people only dreamed of overthrowing the capitalist rule and joining the happy famiily of socialist countries, and that the Communist Party in the USA was the inspiring force between all progressive developments there... and that foul capitalists drugged the people with pornography, violence, narcotics, and pseudo-"art" to distract them from struggle for their rights... Another thing is that, while our grandfathers believed every word of it, and our fathers about 30%, we (born in the early 60s) were already the generation which didn't believe a word of the propaganda.

We were creating our own myths... we thought you were oh so free, and happy, and had access to all world's culture, and lived in a real democracy, and we fucking really envied you!

About women's opportunities... I already mentioned elsewhere that my aunt was a war pilot... since the early 20s our women were scientists and engineers and surgeons and whatever else had been considered strictly male kinds of occupation... Women, in fact, had some privileges at getting (and keeping) such jobs, because it was good for statistics, having women in all those fields, and graphically proved the "superiority of Socialism"... But at the same time, no woman could choose to remain a housewife (unless she had some Godless number of children, I forget which; nobody had that many, only sometimes in Asiatic republics), it was against the law.

P.S. I suddenly remembered how people mourned Challenger disaster here... A woman about 50 on the subway train in which I went to word cried and repeated, "She was a teacher, she was a teacher!" and tried to wipe her tears with the newspaper where that article was published... Many other women had wet eyes... I don't think anyone stayed indifferent...

alinda
08-30-2008, 04:56 AM
Echos all the thank you's to Jean, for some much needed truths :couple:

KaLikeAWheel
08-30-2008, 06:13 AM
1. We didn't believe. We didn't fucking believe you really were told such lies about us. We were told about "mock attacks" you have and all the rest of it that you mention in your post... and we didn't believe. By the time I describe (seventies till mid-eighties) we had been all firmly convinced that ours is the most ridiculous, the most absurd propaganda possible, so no wonder it tells us lies about your propaganda, exaggerating and overblowing, and, well - just lying. Because surely no propaganda but Soviet could be that stupid!

2. We were sure that even if you are exposed to at least some amount of such propaganda, you didn't believe it, just like we did't believe ours... Surely, we thought and said to each other, the people of the USA couldn't believe such things, they were not idiots, were they? Surely they had access to information that would let them see that we are no monsters, that we are people like them? That we, too, want to live in peace, etc, etc, etc...

Donna: no, we weren't really taught "true way", either... we were taught to believe that American people only dream of overthrowing the capitalist rule and join the happy famiily of socialist countries, and that the Communist Party in the USA was the inspiring force between all progressive developments there... and that foul capitalists drug the people with pornography, violence, narcotics, and pseudo-"art"... Another thing is that, while our grandfathers believed every word of it, and our fathers about 30%, we (born in the early 60s) were already the generation which didn't believe a word of the propaganda.



Jean,

First let me clarify that in my original post, I was always refering to the time period of the so-called "cold war," and not my current attitude, despite the fact that my post was written present tense.

I think perhaps we Americans have two strikes against us.

1.) Naivete: The USA is a relatively young country. and as a result, I think Americans were and are more gullible. Even today, many, if not most, of the people here watch CNN or Fox News and believe it is gospel. Many people believe in the concept of "unbiased" news or that a free press equates to an honest press. Perhaps we were more impressionable as a people than the citizens in the old Soviet Union, or perhaps our propagandaists were just of a better caliber. It's not that we're stupid, it's just more that we're philosophically lazy. We're getting better since the internet came along, so have patience with us, Jean.

2.) Rabid patriotism: In our oh-so-free society, to question the way America does things has always been akin to saying you don't love this country. There has always been large faction of this country who are rabidly patriotic, and they've spent a lot of time in positions of power. The result is that ideas that don't agree with the status quo (and the status quo gave us McCarthyism), are often met with hatred, suspicion and downright violence. In short, it's un-American to not believe what your told. You're a bad American if you ask questions. Our propagandaists said similar things to what yours said, but they padded it with sayings about "defending the American way," and "fighting for freedom," etc. Add the monthly "drills" where we practiced diving under our desks and occasional viewings of films with names like, "How to Survive a Nuclear Attack," or "What to Do When Russia Invades," well, it makes an impression on a child.

I honestly did not mean to offend you, Jean. I respect you very much. I was only surprised your government villified only our leaders, and not our people as a whole. I respect you even more now, knowing that you never believed the lies. The smear campaign against your country perpitrated by our leaders was much broader. The history we are taught in our schools is narrow-minded and highly slanted. Those of us that did not broaden our history education in college are often very lacking in cultural knowledge. That was the point I was trying to make. :)

jayson
08-30-2008, 06:23 AM
Certainly... but I am afraid the USA is one of those (hopefully, few?) countries where this attitude achieved the status of state policy.

Couldn't agree more. Of course there is cultural ignorance in all parts of the world, but it seems more and more that this is becoming somewhat a point of pride for Americans. Our current administration prides itself on the fact that it does not consider the advice of other nations on particular issues, and Americans rally around that concept as if it were the best possible policy. Consensus and diplomacy are seen by many here as signs of national weakness.

The other issue that I have with the cultural ignorance which pervades much of this country is that it is willful. Jean makes an excellent point about how one chooses to believe or not believe the lies they are being told by their governments and their media and their educators. It has been my observation that many Americans that are ignorant of other cultures are willfully ignorant. They know that there is more than they are being told, they simply don't care to find out. It's easier to just accept the perpetuated truth.

Matt
08-30-2008, 06:50 AM
Certainly... but I am afraid the USA is one of those (hopefully, few?) countries where this attitude achieved the status of state policy.

I do not believe that in any way shape or form but I do respect you opinion Jean. I feel like its...not prudent for me to comment in here as I am in the minority about my opinions concerning the US. :couple:

Brice
08-30-2008, 07:06 AM
Nah, dude! It's cool! We're all friends here. Noone has to like or agree with anyone's opinions. You believe what you believe. It ain't like you could change that evenif you wanted to do so. Based on reading your posts both here and elsewhere over the last few years. I'm relatively sure we're probably polar opposites in our opinions...and that's a good thing. It takes all kinds and I suspect whatever truth there is lies somewhere in the middle.

Jean
08-30-2008, 07:25 AM
I honestly did not mean to offend you, Jean.
I was so surprised when I read that! Offend me, when you have showed such a lot of understanding? I've loved your country and its people since I remember myself... and now I only have more and more reasons for that love - more and more, with every day.


I do not believe that in any way shape or form but I do respect you opinion Jean. I feel like its...not prudent for me to comment in here as I am in the minority about my opinions concerning the US.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_shocked.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_shocked.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_shocked.gif

Now the bear isn't surprised, the bear is shocked!

Matt - it's you who made this site, and it's thanks to you and to the people you have chosen to be your team that the main idea here remains: everyone speaks his mind, whether or not he is minority or majority, and his opinion is respected. That's what the whole thing is about, isn't it? And it's your creation, all tolerance and understanding that have been cultivated around here, it's all how you conceived this site and brought it into existence! http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

Jayson... there's one thing... you had more reasons to believe your propaganda than we did... because, you know, if a government can offer their people any acceptable life standard, it's one thing, and when it can't, it's quite different... I'll give details later, they might be interesting.

P.S. Another random memory. In the 60s, there was a portrait of Hemingway, beard, pipe and all, in almost every house; and his books, of course. Hemingway was a definite must if you wanted to be considered a somebody!

Matt
08-30-2008, 07:38 AM
I do not believe that in any way shape or form but I do respect you opinion Jean. I feel like its...not prudent for me to comment in here as I am in the minority about my opinions concerning the US.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_shocked.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_shocked.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_shocked.gif

Now the bear isn't surprised, the bear is shocked!

Matt - it's you who made this site, and it's thanks to you and to the people you have chosen to be your team that the main idea here remains: everyone speaks his mind, whether or not he is minority or majority, and his opinion is respected. That's what the whole thing is about, isn't it? And it's your creation, all tolerance and understanding that have been cultivated around here, it's all how you conceived this site and brought it into existence! http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif



Thank you Jean, I appreciate that. I understand that feelings on the US around the world (and at home) are very much a love/hate thing. I think that we deserve both in many cases.

Mostly my reasons for not going very far into it is because I do not want to create a misunderstanding over opinions that (for everyone) are strictly personal and can only go so far in an effort to be based in fact.

This thread itself has an amazing title and the potential to teach all of us about many different aspects of the countries and cultures we share this planet with. But it is simply about the US.

I know its a product of the overwhelming majority of the sites members being US citizens so there is not much to do about it. I actually hope that changes as Stephen Kings influence reaches even more of the globe :wub:

I believe humans as a species have a hell of a lot to learn about one another and its not specifically about any of our countries.

jayson
08-30-2008, 08:24 AM
Matt - I know from other threads that you and I don't always agree on subjects like this, but I do always find your input valuable. As for potential misunderstandings, it's been my experience that you are always good at delineating what is your opinion and what is a fact so most misunderstandings would be avoided. I feel you add a lot to these discussions.

Jean - I think you have a point with reference to relationship of the quality of life provided by a government and the willingness of the people to believe what that government says. Comfortability with the status quo is a strong motivator to not question things.

VastOne
08-30-2008, 04:00 PM
I do not believe that in any way shape or form but I do respect you opinion Jean. I feel like its...not prudent for me to comment in here as I am in the minority about my opinions concerning the US.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_shocked.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_shocked.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_shocked.gif

Now the bear isn't surprised, the bear is shocked!

Matt - it's you who made this site, and it's thanks to you and to the people you have chosen to be your team that the main idea here remains: everyone speaks his mind, whether or not he is minority or majority, and his opinion is respected. That's what the whole thing is about, isn't it? And it's your creation, all tolerance and understanding that have been cultivated around here, it's all how you conceived this site and brought it into existence! http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif



Thank you Jean, I appreciate that. I understand that feelings on the US around the world (and at home) are very much a love/hate thing. I think that we deserve both in many cases.

Mostly my reasons for not going very far into it is because I do not want to create a misunderstanding over opinions that (for everyone) are strictly personal and can only go so far in an effort to be based in fact.

This thread itself has an amazing title and the potential to teach all of us about many different aspects of the countries and cultures we share this planet with. But it is simply about the US.

I know its a product of the overwhelming majority of the sites members being US citizens so there is not much to do about it. I actually hope that changes as Stephen Kings influence reaches even more of the globe :wub:

I believe humans as a species have a hell of a lot to learn about one another and its not specifically about any of our countries.

When I first joined, Matt asked me to start another thread about a question I had in regards to how the internet has shrunken us to a very larger neighborhood.

That thread never took off, but this is exactly the type of discussion I was hoping for. I am grateful to be a part of open discussion and hope everyone with an opinion speaks his mind.

I am amazed that for 48 years of my life, I have never heard the great things that Jean has brought up about his childhood... I have since change my attitude that we should be much more like our Bearish friends and the world could/would be a better place.

I hope it continues for the lifetime of this great site and could not agree more with Matt regarding SK's influence. Perhaps the master may stumble upon this thread and mayhap it will spark an idea to write about.

As far as the media goes...We are shoveled only what we are allowed to hear from the mainstream media. Katrina is a great example in how it took HBO to really show the horror that happened there. I would go so far as to say that 65-75% of the people here still do not know or care of how horrible it was and is. Thank goodness for the internet and sites like this to expand our knowledge and give us the true news.

Finally, kids nowadays (mine especially) have friends all over the world from the internet and from the Xbox. It is amusing and a great sense of pride when my son and daughter tell me of their UK, Chinese, CIS, Japan and Mexican contacts. On the other hand, when the Olympics was on, my son asked a history teacher about the new colors of Russia, this teacher did not know enough to discuss it. So thank goodness for the Internet and it's incredible source of information.

For the record, if there is one thing I am all about changing is the US public education program. While it has tried incredibly hard to change and get better with programs like "no child left behind", the kids who are left behind now are the brighter ones left to fend for themselves. If it were not for the social values of school and the fact that I can augment their education here at home with incredible tools from places like Wiki and Google (and here), I would home school my children and know their education would be 1000 times greater than what it is now.

Jon
08-31-2008, 12:57 AM
While I maintain my shame I must disseminate that shame to the adults around me.

They fooled a 7 year-old boy!

Congrats assholes.

As for self- education. As I stated, we had only four sources of news (this is what I refer to as isolation.) I was 7 with 4 sources of news...plus parents with the same sources. Sometimes I would hear, second hand (another 7 year-old,) of the NPR precursor from a school mate living in the small town of about 2,000.

Near high school (about 12 years of age) technology caught, then the whole staged release of the 52 Iranian hostages on the very day Regan was inaugurated...I knew I smelled a rat.I realized I was being fed SOME shit. But I didn't know what was true and what was lie. The nearer to high school an explosion of news came upon the scene. I have yet to look back.

I DO remember feeling so ill and ashamed at the movie Red Dawn (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087985/plotsummary). Hell...this was 1984...who did they think they were fooling??

I just wanted to say to those Americans who are wholly unsatisfied with this country (and I don't mean just this president or that president, I mean our history as a whole,) don't leave; stay and change it.

SHAMEFUL TRIVIA: What is the first, and only country to detonate a nuclear weapon out of anger? http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff79/walterodim_photos/Americanflag12.jpg


Maybe soon I will post the reasons I am proud of this nation... but right now I feel too much personal shame.

jayson
08-31-2008, 04:00 AM
For the record, if there is one thing I am all about changing is the US public education program. While it has tried incredibly hard to change and get better with programs like "no child left behind", the kids who are left behind now are the brighter ones left to fend for themselves.

While I agree with you in principle, I think that programs such as "No Child Left Behind" are actually worsening the cultural isolation/ignorance of which we are talking in this thread. The program is an abomination which relies far too heavily on standardized testing. It creates even less opportunities for educators to teach children anything other than how to take a standardized test.

valtr0n
08-31-2008, 04:11 AM
R_of_G, I was just coming in to post the same thing.

No Child Left Behind hinders schools in every way. Whole districts are punished if one class in one school do poorly. That class could even be a Special Ed class, who are required to take the exact same test everyone else is required. Kids who can't even wipe their own ass, kids who can't talk, kids who have absolutely zero comprehension skills. Required to take the same tests as "normal" kids and being punished by the Federal Government when they don't measure up to par.

alinda
08-31-2008, 05:05 AM
Please don't get me started on "special" education! All 3 of my sons attended these classes, and recieved "special ed "diplomas. What a farse this is , when my sons
( who are really proud of thier achievment academically ) present this document, they
are usually shown the door out, :nope: its a sad , sad situation.

jayson
08-31-2008, 05:31 AM
R_of_G, I was just coming in to post the same thing.

No Child Left Behind hinders schools in every way. Whole districts are punished if one class in one school do poorly. That class could even be a Special Ed class, who are required to take the exact same test everyone else is required. Kids who can't even wipe their own ass, kids who can't talk, kids who have absolutely zero comprehension skills. Required to take the same tests as "normal" kids and being punished by the Federal Government when they don't measure up to par.


Please don't get me started on "special" education! All 3 of my sons attended these classes, and recieved "special ed "diplomas. What a farse this is , when my sons
( who are really proud of thier achievment academically ) present this document, they
are usually shown the door out, :nope: its a sad , sad situation.

I worked in a Special Ed school for a couple of years. One thing it showed is exactly the point I was trying to make, and that I suspect Valtron was as well - that there is no one-size-fits-all education plan for children. Different children have different needs and one cannot simply come up with a singular plan to address all of these students and then base federal financial aid to schools upon their performance.

VastOne
08-31-2008, 10:07 AM
For the record, if there is one thing I am all about changing is the US public education program. While it has tried incredibly hard to change and get better with programs like "no child left behind", the kids who are left behind now are the brighter ones left to fend for themselves.

While I agree with you in principle, I think that programs such as "No Child Left Behind" are actually worsening the cultural isolation/ignorance of which we are talking in this thread. The program is an abomination which relies far too heavily on standardized testing. It creates even less opportunities for educators to teach children anything other than how to take a standardized test.

Yes....I brought up only a portion of the abomination and you added the additional thoughts and concerns I had. Most teachers I have spoken to despise the program....

VastOne
08-31-2008, 10:09 AM
Please don't get me started on "special" education! All 3 of my sons attended these classes, and recieved "special ed "diplomas. What a farse this is , when my sons
( who are really proud of thier achievment academically ) present this document, they
are usually shown the door out, :nope: its a sad , sad situation.

I am very proud of their accomplishments and of yours too Linda...:huglove:

alinda
08-31-2008, 10:19 AM
thanks, all of you. I used to say about every other day about my sons
" They were not made with a cookie cutter":grouphug:

valtr0n
08-31-2008, 03:09 PM
A friend of the family has 4 adopted special needs children... ranging from 17 to 21. They're some of the most wonderful, special, beautiful children ever, and I can't imagine the torment they'd be subjected to if they weren't home schooled. You know the taking of standardized tests can't be good for a special needs child's progress. It can't be good for their self-esteem.

This country is in some serious need of reform, in pretty much every aspect, but I don't think either of our presidential candidates can do it. Both say they want to "revise" No Child Left Behind, but fail to outline exactly what "revisions" they plan to make. The same goes for just about every other topic of debate.

It's hard enough for schoolchildren to learn everything about their own country, seeing as we're so large and spread out. Most rural states have a culture all their own, similar to a country in and of itself. The area where I grew up was pretty much unreachable by an outsider until the late 50's. It was easier to go around my area of Kentucky than go through it, so no one did. I'm sure the same can be said for a lot of other places.

Really, there is a change brewing in America. People are starting to see through the curtain. I think the greatest problem facing our nation is the populace's inability to distinguish between true patriotism and rabid nationalism. Many now consider them to be interchangeable, the same thing.

Me? I'm a patriot. I know my country has done wrong. I know what my country is capable of. I know what my country was founded on. I believe my country has the capacity to be great, to do great things for the world. But we have to be willing to see our faults, acknowledge them, fix them, and move on. We've gotten to the point where the government no longer even needs to feed the nationalism. It's become a cultural phenomenon all it's own.

Sorry for the rant, just throwing my hat into the ring.

VastOne
08-31-2008, 03:42 PM
Really, there is a change brewing in America. People are starting to see through the curtain. I think the greatest problem facing our nation is the populace's inability to distinguish between true patriotism and rabid nationalism. Many now consider them to be interchangeable, the same thing.

Me? I'm a patriot. I know my country has done wrong. I know what my country is capable of. I know what my country was founded on. I believe my country has the capacity to be great, to do great things for the world. But we have to be willing to see our faults, acknowledge them, fix them, and move on. We've gotten to the point where the government no longer even needs to feed the nationalism. It's become a cultural phenomenon all it's own.


Sorry for the rant, just throwing my hat into the ring.

I want to agree with you on this valtron...But as I pointed out to Alinda, there just seems to be no unity to bond and do something...What polarizing event would nowadays get people together to make a stand? I will give you one...Global Climate Changes....It scares me to death what is happening, but we cannot get the most intelligent people to agree there is even an issue


I fear the world will move on before this happens.....

jayson
08-31-2008, 03:50 PM
I'm a patriot. I know my country has done wrong. I know what my country is capable of. I know what my country was founded on. I believe my country has the capacity to be great, to do great things for the world. But we have to be willing to see our faults, acknowledge them, fix them, and move on. We've gotten to the point where the government no longer even needs to feed the nationalism. It's become a cultural phenomenon all it's own.

It's very refreshing to see that I am not the only one who defines that word in this way. There is a world of difference between patriotism and nationalism. Unfortunately in recent years the two words have become conflated, and this has been to our detriment as a nation. The kind of "love it or leave it" mentality is sickening. We should always be striving to be a better nation, not just "good enough".

valtr0n
08-31-2008, 07:21 PM
VastOne, there'll never be a unity... I didn't mean to imply that in my post. The views of the people are changing, for the better, and that's a good thing. But, like you said, there won't be any unity, not now. The change of view will come in handy after...

It will take a cataclysmic event to fix things, to wake people up, to tear them down, to bring them back together. I don't know what this event will be. Global warming is a possibility. It doesn't really terrify me. What I do know is that there will be a period of chaos, followed by a period of personal struggle in small communities, followed by a "reboot" of our "nation."

Those who make it through the initial chaos will live to see society as it was intended. Small groups, working together, towards only one common purpose: the continuation and advancement of the species.

VastOne
08-31-2008, 10:36 PM
VastOne, there'll never be a unity... I didn't mean to imply that in my post. The views of the people are changing, for the better, and that's a good thing. But, like you said, there won't be any unity, not now. The change of view will come in handy after...

It will take a cataclysmic event to fix things, to wake people up, to tear them down, to bring them back together. I don't know what this event will be. Global warming is a possibility. It doesn't really terrify me. What I do know is that there will be a period of chaos, followed by a period of personal struggle in small communities, followed by a "reboot" of our "nation."

Those who make it through the initial chaos will live to see society as it was intended. Small groups, working together, towards only one common purpose: the continuation and advancement of the species.

Sounds an awful lot like a certain SK book that happens to be my favorite....

Jean
08-31-2008, 10:59 PM
I DO remember feeling so ill and ashamed at the movie Red Dawn (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087985/plotsummary). Hell...this was 1984...who did they think they were fooling??
I have just read the synopsis... I would have never believed it existed if I hadn't just seen it with my own eyes. This level of propaganda shows such a total disrespect for one's own people...

jayson
09-01-2008, 05:24 AM
I DO remember feeling so ill and ashamed at the movie Red Dawn (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087985/plotsummary). Hell...this was 1984...who did they think they were fooling??
I have just read the synopsis... I would have never believed it existed if I hadn't just seen it with my own eyes. This level of propaganda shows such a total disrespect for one's own people...

Perhaps the most disturbing thing is that they could very easily remake that film and change the Russians to "Militant Muslims" and they'd have a huge hit movie. The propaganda hasn't ended, it's just shifted focus. They changed the Red Menace to a Beige Menace and the march to militarization moves on.

Brice
09-01-2008, 05:31 AM
Yes, the muslims have become the new "communists" it seems. There must always be some undefeatable evil. How else do we justify a never ending war?

KaLikeAWheel
09-01-2008, 06:17 AM
Yes, the muslims have become the new "communists" it seems. There must always be some undefeatable evil. How else do we justify a never ending war?

War sells. It sells magazines, ad time on TV, movie tickets, country music (don't even get me started on Tobi Keith and his ilk) and garners campaign contributions. Not to mention, that those billions of dollars we're spending on war has to end up in someone's pocket, and I'd bet very little of it ends up in the pockets of the men and women actually putting their lives on the line. Feh, it's disgusting.

::bashes head on desk:: I had forgotten all about Red Dawn. Now I'm pissed off and depressed all over again. ::Burns the writer and director in effigy:: :onfire::onfire:

Donna

Jean
09-01-2008, 07:29 AM
War sells. It sells magazines, ad time on TV, movie tickets, country music
did you see Wag the Dog? "...If you take courage, Mom". I fucking thought it was funny. I thought it was a witty exaggeration. I mean, I thought so before the Yougoslavia events...

KaLikeAWheel
09-01-2008, 08:22 AM
Actually, I have not seen Wag the Dog. It's one of those movies I keep meaning to see and when I'm at the video store can never think of, dammit. :arg:

Donna

jayson
09-01-2008, 09:59 AM
"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Joseph Goebbels

Sound like a familiar strategy to anyone?

fernandito
09-01-2008, 11:37 AM
Wag the dog is an amazing movie - it shows just how easily the media can maninpulate the ignorant masses.

jayson
09-01-2008, 11:39 AM
Wag the dog is an amazing movie - it shows just how easily the media can maninpulate the ignorant masses.

It is a pretty good movie. Unfortunately, we no longer need it as an example of how the media can manipulate public opinion. We now have the build-up to the invasion of Iraq as a real-life example. I prefer the movie version. At least nobody real people were killed.

Jon
09-01-2008, 11:17 PM
I DO remember feeling so ill and ashamed at the movie Red Dawn (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087985/plotsummary). Hell...this was 1984...who did they think they were fooling??
I have just read the synopsis... I would have never believed it existed if I hadn't just seen it with my own eyes. This level of propaganda shows such a total disrespect for one's own people...


I am just stunned the attempts were still being made in 1984!


It's not like it was made in 1962 or 1963 right after "Karibskiy krizis, Карибский кризис,Caribbean Crisis, October Crisis" A.K.A The Cuban Missile Crisis. Why keep at it?

This is Hollywood, should the U.S. government bear the shame of this movie? I think so, maybe. By that time, (age 15 per my birthdate in relation to movie release date) I KNEW I was being fed bullshit. All of these actors, director and producers were born in the 40's and 50's...they were old enough to know better. But our government started all the bull. So...I hold them guilty as well.


Damn!...again I thought to list the things my country did that gave me pride and again I come away with shame.

Jon
09-02-2008, 12:12 AM
I feel like a 10 ton wagon loaded with 15 tons of bullshit now.

The cynic in me has been emboldened.

KaLikeAWheel
09-02-2008, 12:15 AM
This is Hollywood, should the U.S. government bear the shame of this movie? I think so, maybe. By that time, (age 15 per my birthdate in relation to movie release date) I KNEW I was being fed bullshit. All of these actors, director and producers were born in the 40's and 50's...they were old enough to know better. But our government started all the bull. So...I hold them guilty as well.

I've been thinking about this all night, and, make no mistake, I am in NO way trying to defend Red Dawn in any way at all. That being said, it IS Hollywood. They only make movies that they think will make a profit. Also, writers write what they know. Whoever wrote this movie grew up with McCarthyism and in a day when a good percentage of the population owned bomb shelters. Same for the producers and directors.

I was about the same age as you when this movie came out, and I also knew it was bullshit, but I was in the vast minority. I remember this movie being a fairly big hit. I live about a two hour drive from places you can see gun racks in the back of pickup trucks. I'm sure the attitudes of the day were better than they were in the mid '60's, but here in the American midwest the redneck types were losing their minds over this movie. Of course, they probably wouldn't have been so gung ho over it if they hadn't gotten nightly news updates from our completely unbiased <~~note the sarcasm news media about the wonderful job our government was doing protecting freedom and all that jazz.

Donna

stone, rose, unfound door
09-02-2008, 05:48 AM
Certainly... but I am afraid the USA is one of those (hopefully, few?) countries where this attitude achieved the status of state policy.

Couldn't agree more. Of course there is cultural ignorance in all parts of the world, but it seems more and more that this is becoming somewhat a point of pride for Americans. Our current administration prides itself on the fact that it does not consider the advice of other nations on particular issues, and Americans rally around that concept as if it were the best possible policy. Consensus and diplomacy are seen by many here as signs of national weakness.

The other issue that I have with the cultural ignorance which pervades much of this country is that it is willful. Jean makes an excellent point about how one chooses to believe or not believe the lies they are being told by their governments and their media and their educators. It has been my observation that many Americans that are ignorant of other cultures are willfully ignorant. They know that there is more than they are being told, they simply don't care to find out. It's easier to just accept the perpetuated truth.

Seeing all your posts on the American 'arrogance' (this is more or less how I see it, at least) I couldn't help a big smile on my face since WE as French are always thought to be an extremely arrogant people. I can't deny that we are and that when we're not France-centric, we are Euro-centric, but this is changing really fast. I never had any American History class since the beginning of it was linked to the history of protestantism and then with the various wars that were fought. War is actually the main thing we study when we're taught history. Just like the British, the French having had such a huge tradition of fighting their neighbours on the ground that they were 'different' and might 'provide something we don't have', it seems natural that we'd be taught things this way.
But do not worry too much my friends because of the ridicule of the teaching of world history in the US (after I've seen a CNN map of France in 2005 that put Lyon in Belgium, I do understand that the media don't help people learning what the world is either!) because you are not the only ones! During our last presidential campaign, the media were totally biased and showed all the good things Sarkozy said or did and only the bad ones Ségolène Royal said or did. This actually led most of my stupid friends who are intellectually lazy to believe that what was said in the news was true (this was an even bigger problem since the free news that we're given when taking the metro agreed with what was said in the news but the more elaborate papers that cost 1€ said the opposite, but since no one reads the 'elaborate' papers, all the lazy people voted for Sarkozy. I recently spoke with a friend about this and she admitted that she hadn't really paid attention and had hardly read the flyers they were sending us! So I guess it IS true that it is a human thing and not only American, even if I agree with Jean when he says it's become a way bigger problem in the US than anywhere else. The French people who I've just written about were scorned by other young ones because of their laziness in the end.
I also asked a Japanese friend and she said that in Japan, they were only taught Japanese history (and there are two different ways of teaching it: one that says that what happened during WW2 in Asia was totally shocking and that Japan had to make excuses all over Asia, and another that says the contrary! This is really messed up in my opinion).

Odetta
09-02-2008, 06:27 AM
I DO remember feeling so ill and ashamed at the movie Red Dawn (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087985/plotsummary). Hell...this was 1984...who did they think they were fooling??
I have just read the synopsis... I would have never believed it existed if I hadn't just seen it with my own eyes. This level of propaganda shows such a total disrespect for one's own people...


I am just stunned the attempts were still being made in 1984!


It's not like it was made in 1962 or 1963 right after "Karibskiy krizis, Карибский кризис,Caribbean Crisis, October Crisis" A.K.A The Cuban Missile Crisis. Why keep at it?

This is Hollywood, should the U.S. government bear the shame of this movie? I think so, maybe. By that time, (age 15 per my birthdate in relation to movie release date) I KNEW I was being fed bullshit. All of these actors, director and producers were born in the 40's and 50's...they were old enough to know better. But our government started all the bull. So...I hold them guilty as well.


Damn!...again I thought to list the things my country did that gave me pride and again I come away with shame.


What a great thread!

As I was reading through, Red Dawn was the movie that came to mind... also Rocky 4 was really pathetic and there was another one whose name eludes me about 2 American backpackers who accidentally get caught behind Soviet lines and are tortured because they are assumed to be spies.

Having lived in both the US and Canada and being a dual citizen, I feel I have divided loyalties to both countries. Most of my schooling has been in Canada and I must say that we were taught a great deal of WORLD history as well as our own. When we studied Communism, it was simply presented as another type of governance and USSR was one of the examples of this type of government. I don't recall much "propaganda" regarding the "Cold War" in our schooling. Most information on that would have been through the media (primarily from the US).

I have always been annoyed that people in the US know nothing of the history of other countries... we learned about the US, why doesn't the US learn about Canada?

One thing that I have always admired about the US is their pride in their country. Canadians are some of the least patriotic people I know and I often wish that just a little of the Americans enthusiasm would rub off.

John_and_Yoko
09-02-2008, 06:29 AM
I also asked a Japanese friend and she said that in Japan, they were only taught Japanese history (and there are two different ways of teaching it: one that says that what happened during WW2 in Asia was totally shocking and that Japan had to make excuses all over Asia, and another that says the contrary! This is really messed up in my opinion).

This makes me think about the American South, and how history is taught there, especially as regards the Civil War and immediately before and after.

I'm not from there myself, but I wonder if anyone who is from that region might enlighten me. After all, since the victors write the history books, doesn't that mean that Southerners would be taught that they practiced slavery and rebelled against the U. S. government and therefore deserved (perhaps needed) what they got? Having learned a little of U. S. history from that time period, I don't believe it was a simple good vs. evil idea. Should they fear being taught a neutral (not to say pro-South) take on that period in American history because it's "wrong"?

alinda
09-02-2008, 06:29 AM
I am enrolled in an experiment on line that is measuring the emotional well being of the participants, and recording our self registered data and comparing this data to the Earths activities to find a correlation between what we feel and how our plant reacts .

here is a link if you are interested...http://www.globalcoherenceproject.org/

Matt
09-02-2008, 06:42 AM
I guess I just got lucky. I was taught world history in school. :fairy:

stone, rose, unfound door
09-02-2008, 09:51 AM
I guess I just got lucky. I was taught world history in school. :fairy:

It would seriously be a shame if you took a class in modern history in the US and didn't get to learn world history since the US were all over the place!

Matt
09-02-2008, 09:54 AM
I agree, I've never heard of any high school here that did not teach world history but I've been out of it for a while.

My daughter (senior in HS) has one this semester though.

alinda
09-02-2008, 09:56 AM
What I learned from history is we as a species should not repeat it. There have been some pretty serious foul ups in world history haven't there? I think its about time we
try some different techniques to get along better.

PS I enjoyed see the photos posted of you and the Budapest beauties, your all so lovely
:rose:

jayson
09-02-2008, 10:08 AM
I agree, I've never heard of any high school here that did not teach world history but I've been out of it for a while.

I'm not so sure it's a matter of whether or not it's being taught as I had World History in high school as well, but what is being taught in said history class. When I compare what I was taught to what I later found to be true I question the value of the education I got in high school. Of course this is not an across-the-board statement as curriculum varies from school to school and teacher to teacher.

Darkthoughts
09-02-2008, 11:29 AM
That again though is a fault of countries everywhere, not just America.

When we were taught about the British Empire's heyday in history, most of the atrocities commited by the British were totally glossed over.

Matt
09-02-2008, 11:58 AM
That's pretty much exactly it. Every country has a way of showing themselves in a better light from histories perspective.

In my personal opinion, the US is as fucked up as any anybody, more so because of our unique position in the world. However, we are very culturally diverse in any case.

And btw...Red Dawn was stupid as it got. I was around in 1984 and the reviews as horrible as the movie. As far fetched as a vampire invasion, maybe more so.

Aesculapius
09-02-2008, 11:58 AM
What I learned from history is we as a species should not repeat it. There have been some pretty serious foul ups in world history haven't there? I think its about time we
try some different techniques to get along better.

How about HER-story instead of HIS-story?



I'm not so sure it's a matter of whether or not it's being taught as I had World History in high school as well, but what is being taught in said history class. When I compare what I was taught to what I later found to be true I question the value of the education I got in high school. Of course this is not an across-the-board statement as curriculum varies from school to school and teacher to teacher.

Exactly.
When I compare what I was taught in High School to what I have learned on my own...I want to vomit.

What a joke.

valtr0n
09-02-2008, 12:15 PM
That's the one thing that I think redeems America... the freedom to educate yourself on whatever you wish. You can go as deep into the rabbit hole as you'd like. If you're not satisfied with the answer your history teacher gives you, you can go home and delve deeper. You can, for the most part, find your own answers. You're free to pursue any interest you like.

This again points to a simple fault in humanity and not just an individual country. Even when given the option to expand their knowledge about a subject, most people willingly choose to be satisfied with the knowledge they already have, whether it be knowledge about their country, their history, the world, or what-have-you.

I challenge anyone who holds a specific ideal of America to come live here, even if just for a month. Visit a major city, live in a rural area, do something uniquely American while you're here. Most of us are not the way you imagine us. Most Americans are good people, with good intentions, however ignorant they may be.

jayson
09-02-2008, 12:22 PM
In my personal opinion, the US is as fucked up as any anybody, more so because of our unique position in the world. However, we are very culturally diverse in any case.

No doubt that this is true. However, unlike most other countries, the US attempts to actively and often brutally export its position to other nations.

Matt
09-02-2008, 01:16 PM
On that my friend, we will simply have to disagree.

My comment was more about the immigrants that make up our society. :D

Aesculapius
09-02-2008, 05:21 PM
This again points to a simple fault in humanity and not just an individual country. Even when given the option to expand their knowledge about a subject, most people willingly choose to be satisfied with the knowledge they already have, whether it be knowledge about their country, their history, the world, or what-have-you.

I can totally agree with this point.
DT mentioned an example a couple of posts up from here:


When we were taught about the British Empire's heyday in history, most of the atrocities commited by the British were totally glossed over.
It is my understanding that the "fault" or "crack" within the collective being we call humanity (or, any clump of matter that comes together as something tangible) begins within the individual and seeps out from there. Also, it is my understanding that there are particular nodes that must be reached during "life" to bring the individual to a higher awareness of self; and still it seeps out from there.

I learned that a child develops through a series of "systems", no matter the country where the child is raised.

Development begins within the microsystem, which is concerned with the relationship between the individual and his / her immediate environment.

The mesosystem is concerned with the connections between the individual's immediate settings that bring about development. The first connection that should foster devolpment being our parents, or, care-givers. Others being school, the location of home and the neighborhood.

The exosystem is concerned with social settings that do not contain children but do affect their immediate settings. Things like the parent's, or care-giver's, workplace. The individual's extended family is part of the exosystem because they lend their time to helping rear a child through financial assistance, advice, or companionship.

The macrosystem is concerned with non-tangible objects such as laws, values, customs, and the resources of the surrounding culture of the individual.

The chronosystem is concerned with the dynamic changes in the environment of the child. Chrono. That thing we stack up and label as TIME.

I brought up a point that we reach particular nodes during our time spent here because I recall hitting a few of those points, and, I recall having to explain them again when my son hit those points. For example, when I was young, I thought all the music that I heard was made by people in my own city. It wasn't until later on that I realized that music was made everywhere and made it to my ears through a long series of "systems" / "steps". My son did the same thing, only with movies. He thought they made all the movies in the city where we lived.

I think this is why "most people willingly choose to be satisfied with the knowledge they already have" because their minds have been made up long ago about how certain things ARE, and, I also BELIEVE that we are products of our parents, who were products of their parents, and over and over...

Not that any blame should be placed on our parents, or that there is any blame to be passed around. Yes, our parents are responsible for a large part of how we "turn out", but, the individual mind is the last stop on the way to REASON. Doesn't mean that I do not think things can change, as alinda mentioned before.

/rant :lol:

Darkthoughts
09-03-2008, 05:36 AM
Good rant :clap:

jayson
09-03-2008, 05:41 AM
I agree Will. While it may initially fall on parents or teachers or any "other" to provide information for a child, ultimately it is the responsibility of the individual to educate themselves. I think the best thing a parent can do is to simply instill the desire to pursue lifelong learning.

alinda
09-03-2008, 05:47 AM
One of the reasons I care so much for you my friends , is that we are students all.
More than willing to accept that there are more than things to learn.:grouphug:

Brice
09-03-2008, 05:49 AM
One of the reasons I care so much for you my friends , is that we are students all.
More than willing to accept that there are more than things to learn.:grouphug:

...except for me. I'm a know-it-all. :lol:

alinda
09-03-2008, 05:53 AM
Didn't notice till you quoted me that the sentence structure was off there. oops!
More coffee please! http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r66/alinda47/coffee_spray-1.gif

Brice
09-03-2008, 05:54 AM
:D *paases you some coffee*

stone, rose, unfound door
09-05-2008, 04:13 AM
That's the one thing that I think redeems America... the freedom to educate yourself on whatever you wish. You can go as deep into the rabbit hole as you'd like. If you're not satisfied with the answer your history teacher gives you, you can go home and delve deeper. You can, for the most part, find your own answers. You're free to pursue any interest you like.

This again points to a simple fault in humanity and not just an individual country. Even when given the option to expand their knowledge about a subject, most people willingly choose to be satisfied with the knowledge they already have, whether it be knowledge about their country, their history, the world, or what-have-you.

I challenge anyone who holds a specific ideal of America to come live here, even if just for a month. Visit a major city, live in a rural area, do something uniquely American while you're here. Most of us are not the way you imagine us. Most Americans are good people, with good intentions, however ignorant they may be.

I don't think anyone said the Americans weren't good people, but I've heard and read some very rude comments on the French (all made by US citizens, unfortunately) and, even though I know a lot of French people are dumb and full of stereotypes, I've been quite disappointed. This was just about my country, but I know the same thing goes for every country in the world and some stereotypes that rednecks have are really outdated and make us think that, these people being the average US citizen, most average US citizens are the same as those rednecks. I have a few very good American friends, though, so it doesn't mean we think all American people are dumb. Maybe there are more ignorant people full of stereotypes in the US (obviously, since there are more US citizens than French ones), which is sad since the US is everywhere fighting wars without its soldiers really knowing the culture of the country they're fighting.

Poisonbat
09-05-2008, 11:56 AM
This is a very good discussion and one that is difficult for me. I have taken all morning to think about my reply and at the risk of pissing a whole lot of folks off, I cannot deny how I feel.

I HATE what we have been, done and become here as Americans and in America.

From the hatred and slaughter of Native Americans, to the extreme racism and slave history, to the horrors of how soldiers were treated in several wars and to the arrogance of shoving our "sacred values" of democracy down the throats of nations thousands of years older than us, I am DISGUSTED.

I value Jean's input and discussion and am actually amazed to hear that he was taught to honor us as allies while we have been been programmed to see his great culture and people as an evil empire. It is something I will share with my children both as an opportunity and something for them to use to break the cycle of ignorance.

Obviously there has been a tremendous amount of good here and a great many wonderful people. Our culture is rich in many ways and we have produced incredible results. From a world perspective, we have not even reached 9 years of age in history, which many believe the actual age a child enters cognitive thought.

I will end this rant by saying that the current leadership here is and has been a freaking joke. We have used a horrible tragic incident to impose even more of our righteousness onto not only to a country proven to have nothing to do with it, but also upon our own people by spying on this e-mail and the phone I will make later on.

I also see way too much of "look at me" "image is everything" in so many people, while they walk right by a person dying because they cannot get insurance to go to the hospital.

What have we become? I am not sure, but I do not like it.....:angry:

I will apologize to anyone I offend in advance....

I feel exactly the same way. We came to this country and slaughtered Native Americans the same way Hitler slaughtered the Jews. Someone asked me about being a proud American, I told her no not really. Slavery and slaughtering, throwing our elderly away where we are not burdoned with them, leaving millions without any health care, passing by our homeless and hungry like they aren't there. Proud of this? Sticking our noses in everyone else's business? No, and if I piss someone off by saying these things, then I am sorry. They give us rights here in America, but they ALL come with conditions attached to them. Freedom or Bondage? You decide:doh:

valtr0n
09-05-2008, 01:24 PM
I don't think anyone said the Americans weren't good people, but I've heard and read some very rude comments on the French (all made by US citizens, unfortunately) and, even though I know a lot of French people are dumb and full of stereotypes, I've been quite disappointed. This was just about my country, but I know the same thing goes for every country in the world and some stereotypes that rednecks have are really outdated and make us think that, these people being the average US citizen, most average US citizens are the same as those rednecks. I have a few very good American friends, though, so it doesn't mean we think all American people are dumb. Maybe there are more ignorant people full of stereotypes in the US (obviously, since there are more US citizens than French ones), which is sad since the US is everywhere fighting wars without its soldiers really knowing the culture of the country they're fighting.

It's always the negative people who get heard. Never the people with good things to say. I think that's true everywhere. The small percentage of individuals who behave this way spoil it for everyone else.

And speaking of cultural isolation, do you know where the term "redneck" even got it's beginning? It didn't use to mean what it's become. Being a "redneck" used to be something to be proud of. The term originates from the Matewan Coal War, where thousands of Union Supporters put red bandanna's around their necks and marched on Mingo County. They were deemed "rednecks" by the press. A redneck was simply a hardworking union supporter. But it's been twisted by the rest of my own nation into something else entirely, but it's not surprising. Appalachia tends to be misunderstood, misrepresented, and generally treated this way.

That's the thing... there are cultures in America itself that are treated just as poorly as we treat other countries. People can't even be united on their own homefront, let alone educated about anything beyond their own city block.

Matt
09-05-2008, 01:34 PM
I feel exactly the same way. We came to this country and slaughtered Native Americans the same way Hitler slaughtered the Jews. Someone asked me about being a proud American, I told her no not really. Slavery and slaughtering, throwing our elderly away where we are not burdoned with them, leaving millions without any health care, passing by our homeless and hungry like they aren't there. Proud of this? Sticking our noses in everyone else's business? No, and if I piss someone off by saying these things, then I am sorry. They give us rights here in America, but they ALL come with conditions attached to them. Freedom or Bondage? You decide:doh:

Even though I really don't agree Poisonbat--its great to see you posting. :couple:

Please feel free to express your opinion out here anytime you like.

Odetta
09-05-2008, 01:41 PM
I think this is why "most people willingly choose to be satisfied with the knowledge they already have" because their minds have been made up long ago about how certain things ARE, and, I also BELIEVE that we are products of our parents, who were products of their parents, and over and over...

Not that any blame should be placed on our parents, or that there is any blame to be passed around. Yes, our parents are responsible for a large part of how we "turn out", but, the individual mind is the last stop on the way to REASON. Doesn't mean that I do not think things can change, as alinda mentioned before.

/rant :lol:

agreed, sir!

valtr0n
09-05-2008, 01:43 PM
I feel exactly the same way. We came to this country and slaughtered Native Americans the same way Hitler slaughtered the Jews. Someone asked me about being a proud American, I told her no not really. Slavery and slaughtering, throwing our elderly away where we are not burdoned with them, leaving millions without any health care, passing by our homeless and hungry like they aren't there. Proud of this? Sticking our noses in everyone else's business? No, and if I piss someone off by saying these things, then I am sorry. They give us rights here in America, but they ALL come with conditions attached to them. Freedom or Bondage? You decide:doh:

You have the power to change your world. We all do. I know you're not satisfied with the bad things this country has done, and the things sometime done only in this country's name. Believe me, there are a lot of Americans who feel shame at being a citizen here.

But this is just idle whining. Sorry, but it is. What have you done, and/or what are you doing to change things? Would you be willing to stand up for your neighbor, put your life on the line for what's right? A lot of people talk the talk...

What I'm saying is, when the time comes to stand up, will you? Or will you do as many others in history and fall in line behind everyone else? You can say there's no good in standing up for what you believe in, that you'll just be shot down, that there's no way to win... but it's that kind of thinking that defeats us all before we ever get started. If enough people would stand up and make themselves heard, by any means necessary, things could change.

This country has divided everyone into groups... liberals, democrats, conversatives, republicans... and that's not what we are. They divide us to conquer us. They pit us against one another instead of against the greater foe. There's nothing we can do to bring back the Native Americans that we slaughtered and drove from their ancestral homes. There's nothing we can do to make amends with the past other than accept it as what it is, and move on towards the future. Because ultimately, we are the future. What will we become?

Poisonbat
09-05-2008, 04:55 PM
I feel exactly the same way. We came to this country and slaughtered Native Americans the same way Hitler slaughtered the Jews. Someone asked me about being a proud American, I told her no not really. Slavery and slaughtering, throwing our elderly away where we are not burdoned with them, leaving millions without any health care, passing by our homeless and hungry like they aren't there. Proud of this? Sticking our noses in everyone else's business? No, and if I piss someone off by saying these things, then I am sorry. They give us rights here in America, but they ALL come with conditions attached to them. Freedom or Bondage? You decide:doh:

You have the power to change your world. We all do. I know you're not satisfied with the bad things this country has done, and the things sometime done only in this country's name. Believe me, there are a lot of Americans who feel shame at being a citizen here.

But this is just idle whining. Sorry, but it is. What have you done, and/or what are you doing to change things? Would you be willing to stand up for your neighbor, put your life on the line for what's right? A lot of people talk the talk...

What I'm saying is, when the time comes to stand up, will you? Or will you do as many others in history and fall in line behind everyone else? You can say there's no good in standing up for what you believe in, that you'll just be shot down, that there's no way to win... but it's that kind of thinking that defeats us all before we ever get started. If enough people would stand up and make themselves heard, by any means necessary, things could change.

This country has divided everyone into groups... liberals, democrats, conversatives, republicans... and that's not what we are. They divide us to conquer us. They pit us against one another instead of against the greater foe. There's nothing we can do to bring back the Native Americans that we slaughtered and drove from their ancestral homes. There's nothing we can do to make amends with the past other than accept it as what it is, and move on towards the future. Because ultimately, we are the future. What will we become?

I agree with you, and actively stand up for the little guy in this world. I have stepped up and joined many civil organizations to help the homeless and hungry. No we can not change our past, but it is the current situation here and the future that I worry about. I cared for my grandfather until his death at 93 years of age just a month ago. It was not easy, but I was not going to see him live out his old age rotting in a home. I have written letters to my congressmen about issues from plastics in landfills to the war in Iraq. Is there anyone who is listening? I am going to start volunteering at an animal shelter next week, there are victims there too. My children have been my lifetime goal of raising to be active members of sociaty, and have the drive to make better decisions than what peer pressure dictates. My children are my legasy and gift to the world. If this nation would stand together and put an end to the political madness, then yes I think it would be a better place. History will be made in this next election either way it goes, that, at least, may be a start. Why we don't put as much effort into humanitarian efforts as we do in to finding better and more efficient ways of killing each other is beyond me. It would take a nation united to change America, we are so very divided that I just don't see that happening in my lifetime. Maybe the next generation can and will change not only America, but the world. All I can do is my part and I can say that I am doing that.

alinda
09-06-2008, 09:44 AM
Ok, spend some minutes everyday giving the love in your heart to the world.
Do it everyday. Feel compassion towards everyone you come into contact with.
Give it a try, Pretty soon you'll notice a small yet undeniable change in the world. :D
Its better already isnt, even for a few seconds?

Poisonbat
09-06-2008, 04:38 PM
Ok, spend some minutes everyday giving the love in your heart to the world.
Do it everyday. Feel compassion towards everyone you come into contact with.
Give it a try, Pretty soon you'll notice a small yet undeniable change in the world. :D
Its better already isnt, even for a few seconds?

I like this thought very much alinda, it does really feel good to help out someone and show compassion towards people. Baby steps, or was that pay it forward. Maybe a little of both.

Aesculapius
09-09-2008, 10:49 AM
You have the power to change your world. We all do. I know you're not satisfied with the bad things this country has done, and the things sometime done only in this country's name. Believe me, there are a lot of Americans who feel shame at being a citizen here.

But this is just idle whining. Sorry, but it is. What have you done, and/or what are you doing to change things? Would you be willing to stand up for your neighbor, put your life on the line for what's right? A lot of people talk the talk...

What I'm saying is, when the time comes to stand up, will you? Or will you do as many others in history and fall in line behind everyone else? You can say there's no good in standing up for what you believe in, that you'll just be shot down, that there's no way to win... but it's that kind of thinking that defeats us all before we ever get started. If enough people would stand up and make themselves heard, by any means necessary, things could change.

This country has divided everyone into groups... liberals, democrats, conversatives, republicans... and that's not what we are. They divide us to conquer us. They pit us against one another instead of against the greater foe. There's nothing we can do to bring back the Native Americans that we slaughtered and drove from their ancestral homes. There's nothing we can do to make amends with the past other than accept it as what it is, and move on towards the future. Because ultimately, we are the future. What will we become?

:thumbsup:


Al-yeh-li-A-lo-Hee.

stone, rose, unfound door
09-10-2008, 02:01 AM
I don't think anyone said the Americans weren't good people, but I've heard and read some very rude comments on the French (all made by US citizens, unfortunately) and, even though I know a lot of French people are dumb and full of stereotypes, I've been quite disappointed. This was just about my country, but I know the same thing goes for every country in the world and some stereotypes that rednecks have are really outdated and make us think that, these people being the average US citizen, most average US citizens are the same as those rednecks. I have a few very good American friends, though, so it doesn't mean we think all American people are dumb. Maybe there are more ignorant people full of stereotypes in the US (obviously, since there are more US citizens than French ones), which is sad since the US is everywhere fighting wars without its soldiers really knowing the culture of the country they're fighting.

It's always the negative people who get heard. Never the people with good things to say. I think that's true everywhere. The small percentage of individuals who behave this way spoil it for everyone else.

And speaking of cultural isolation, do you know where the term "redneck" even got it's beginning? It didn't use to mean what it's become. Being a "redneck" used to be something to be proud of. The term originates from the Matewan Coal War, where thousands of Union Supporters put red bandanna's around their necks and marched on Mingo County. They were deemed "rednecks" by the press. A redneck was simply a hardworking union supporter. But it's been twisted by the rest of my own nation into something else entirely, but it's not surprising. Appalachia tends to be misunderstood, misrepresented, and generally treated this way.

That's the thing... there are cultures in America itself that are treated just as poorly as we treat other countries. People can't even be united on their own homefront, let alone educated about anything beyond their own city block.

Of course it's always the negative ones that are heard because they are the ones who speak louder :)

I think the thing about American cultures is that there are so many and a lot of people are still not ready to learn about each other's culture so it has become really easy to put everyone in groups, depending on their origins, religion or social status. I was kinda shocked when I first learned that in a lot of cities in the US, people only live with similar people to themselves. I didn't think this was possible in a country of immigrants, but people going to a foreign country usually feel better being close to people who know their language or come from the same place, so that may explain some kind of 'identity crisis' happening in the US today. This 'crisis' is actually happening worldwide at different levels depending on immigration and assimilation, so until people are able to apprehend and try and understand someone else's culture without feeling scared to lose their own, nothing's gonna happen. I hope it changes soon, though, since we now have some global culture as well.

alinda
09-10-2008, 04:41 AM
Ok, spend some minutes everyday giving the love in your heart to the world.
Do it everyday. Feel compassion towards everyone you come into contact with.
Give it a try, Pretty soon you'll notice a small yet undeniable change in the world. :D
Its better already isnt, even for a few seconds?

I like this thought very much alinda, it does really feel good to help out someone and show compassion towards people. Baby steps, or was that pay it forward. Maybe a little of both.

Both are excellent ways to move in a more positive way of living, and the lives of the people you meet will be affected & they will pass it on as well. There is a chain reaction if you will in being compassionate.:grouphug:

Poisonbat
09-10-2008, 06:31 PM
There needs to be changes not only here in America, but worldwide. Once we come to the conclusion that we are all of the same race, the human race, we can all learn to get along. I agree that the US is broadly vast in race and culture, but shouldn't that make us more understanding of different cultures? I had not thought about people living around similar people, but yeah I can see that even in my little corner of the world. Something to think about anyway. :orely:

Jean
09-16-2008, 02:13 AM
this is so brilliant I coudn't help re-quoting it here (from Who's Getting Your Vote thread):


well jean... i assume that you are from russia, since that is the flag you are flying?

if that is the case... considering the communistic and socialistic political history of your country, it pleases me greatly that you disagree with my political views and agree with the democrats here.

if you agreed with me, i would have to do some deep soul searching... which is very difficult for us athiests... and question my political thought process for sure.

You understand, of course, that I would feel all dirty were I to reply to that - but the number of logical mistakes, the depth of historic ignorance, and the degree to which that person allows himself to be manipulated upon is so spectacular that it should really adorn the present thread.

KaLikeAWheel
09-16-2008, 02:27 AM
Jean,

On behalf of atheists everywhere, allow me to apologize! Sheesh, what a maroon!

Donna

Jean
09-16-2008, 02:32 AM
no, love, why would you apologize*? you didn't say that, right? let alone that there's nothing to apologise for... I should be grateful, it's such a gem one doesn't often find! http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wink-1.gif

*though you might scratch the bear's ears... bears love... http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wub.gif

KaLikeAWheel
09-16-2008, 03:01 AM
Always happy to scratch the bear!::scritch, scritch, scritch!::

Does petting bears lower your blood pressure like petting cats/dogs? After spending a few minutes in that political thread I think my head is about to explode!

Donna

Jean
09-16-2008, 03:07 AM
petting bears is beneficial for everyone's (including bears' own) health, morale, sex life, state of mind, psychological climate inside family, metabolism, and general disposition! all necessary proofs thereof are in our BearrrRRRrrrs (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=1985) thread! http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

jayson
09-16-2008, 03:45 AM
Jean, I doubt you will be surprised, but I did respond to that post in the other thread. We all know that I can't help myself but speak when presented with such. I do agree with you that thinking like that typifies the cultural isolation and ignorance being discussed in this thread.

KaLikeAWheel
09-16-2008, 04:10 AM
petting bears is beneficial for everyone

In that case, ::scratch, scratch, scratchity scratch:: :wub:

Donna

Odetta
09-16-2008, 06:23 AM
You understand, of course, that I would feel all dirty were I to reply to that - but the number of logical mistakes, the depth of historic ignorance, and the degree to which that person allows himself to be manipulated upon is so spectacular that it should really adorn the present thread.

this is signature worthy

cozener
09-16-2008, 03:55 PM
this is so brilliant I coudn't help re-quoting it here (from Who's Getting Your Vote thread):


well jean... i assume that you are from russia, since that is the flag you are flying?

if that is the case... considering the communistic and socialistic political history of your country, it pleases me greatly that you disagree with my political views and agree with the democrats here.

if you agreed with me, i would have to do some deep soul searching... which is very difficult for us athiests... and question my political thought process for sure.

You understand, of course, that I would feel all dirty were I to reply to that - but the number of logical mistakes, the depth of historic ignorance, and the degree to which that person allows himself to be manipulated upon is so spectacular that it should really adorn the present thread. Jean! I can't believe you brought that in here!

*eyes the quote in the same way a cat owner might eye the dead bird that Felix just brought home*

valtr0n
09-16-2008, 04:31 PM
On the topic of the history of Russia...

Jean, how do you feel about your history being exported to the United States and sold, in the way of firearms?

I'm in possession of a Mosin Nagant model 1891 rifle dated 1915, still bearing an Imperial crest, unusual because the Bolsheviks scrubbed the crests when they gained power. I think the Finns saved this one by capturing it.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l85/valtr0n/receiver.jpg

But, my point is, an interesting piece of history for me is a completely different relic to you, and it's bought and sold over here for very little money. I'm sure the Russian government appreciates the income that the arms importers supply, but how do Russian citizens feel about the practice of exporting what I consider military history to be abused at the hands of Americans, many of whom don't appreciate them for what they truly are?

cozener
09-16-2008, 04:45 PM
Thats kinda cool. Nifty find. A friend of mine has an old Russian pistol...I have no idea what kind though. I do recall that I didn't much like firing it...very rough. Have you ever fired that rifle?

I have a question for you though. As someone that majored in history I'm curious how Americans abuse military history? Mind you, I'm not challenging your perception (and in all honesty I'm not really equipped to do that as I took not much more than the bare mininum of American history) I just want to know if the abuse that you see is the same abuse that I see. :lol:

theBeamisHome
09-16-2008, 04:53 PM
I also asked a Japanese friend and she said that in Japan, they were only taught Japanese history (and there are two different ways of teaching it: one that says that what happened during WW2 in Asia was totally shocking and that Japan had to make excuses all over Asia, and another that says the contrary! This is really messed up in my opinion).

This makes me think about the American South, and how history is taught there, especially as regards the Civil War and immediately before and after.

I'm not from there myself, but I wonder if anyone who is from that region might enlighten me. After all, since the victors write the history books, doesn't that mean that Southerners would be taught that they practiced slavery and rebelled against the U. S. government and therefore deserved (perhaps needed) what they got? Having learned a little of U. S. history from that time period, I don't believe it was a simple good vs. evil idea. Should they fear being taught a neutral (not to say pro-South) take on that period in American history because it's "wrong"?

Being an Army brat I've been in school in both the North and South. I wouldn't say that the South is really taught anything different. It is taught that the South had slaves and lost and what have you, but something that always bothered me was that the section on the actual slavery part was only about a paragraph... It's mentioned, but the details aren't given on how the slaves were treated and the lynchings and all that. And that's true for both sides. I think the North doesn't want to admit they ignored it and the South doesn't want to acknowledge that they did it. It's a terrible insult to the memory of the people who endured it and those who fought to get rid of it.

And ::puke:: at that post from the Voting thread... i saw it when i was posting and it sickened me there... that guy... ugh!

Jean
09-17-2008, 12:45 AM
Jean! I can't believe you brought that in here!

*eyes the quote in the same way a cat owner might eye the dead bird that Felix just brought home*

::does the Cat (from Shrek), - hat in paws, ears down- as well as a bear can::
I am sorry... you know how bears are... they sometimes drag something in...

I actually thought it was funny... but you're right, it stinks! http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wink-1.gif


On the topic of the history of Russia...

Jean, how do you feel about your history being exported to the United States and sold, in the way of firearms?

I'm in possession of a Mosin Nagant model 1891 rifle dated 1915, still bearing an Imperial crest, unusual because the Bolsheviks scrubbed the crests when they gained power. I think the Finns saved this one by capturing it.

But, my point is, an interesting piece of history for me is a completely different relic to you, and it's bought and sold over here for very little money. I'm sure the Russian government appreciates the income that the arms importers supply, but how do Russian citizens feel about the practice of exporting what I consider military history to be abused at the hands of Americans, many of whom don't appreciate them for what they truly are?
I think the answer is contained in the question, isn't it? How do you think I must feel?

It brings about some interesting matters, though... I don't think I can explain within one post what happened in our country after the Communism crashed - but very roughly, the problem of our post-Communist development was that people who came to power (politically, econimically, financially and ideologically) were those who believed that the only policy is to sell everything out and run away. Everything, including strategic ressources, was subject to selling abroad while the population was lied to, or explained that it's what the real democracy is about; this policy was, understandably, supported by all Western countries who gained full, almost unrestricted access to our oil, gas, nickel, aluminium etc.; finally it lead to a few people growing unbelievably rich and the rest being like me or worse (my friends here are aware of my financial situation, so I won't go into those sad details), the economy in ruins, the politics in constant crisis, and all social institutions in complete deterioration. Now the things are changing for the better - the changes began when Putin came to power, and the current president, thank God, follows the same policy of rebuilding our economy, limiting the monopolists - well, without too many details, of making things sane and minding our national interests.

What is interesting for us in this thread with regard to the above is that, naturally, the whole world immediately started interpreting those steps as the death of democracy in Russia, restauration of dictatorship and other similar crap. Just keep it in mind that whenever you hear something like that, it's inspired by another oil-gas-nickel-aluminium-etc circle worried that they are being weaned from the Russian pie that used to be given away for free.

valtr0n
09-17-2008, 02:27 AM
Thats kinda cool. Nifty find. A friend of mine has an old Russian pistol...I have no idea what kind though. I do recall that I didn't much like firing it...very rough. Have you ever fired that rifle?

I have a question for you though. As someone that majored in history I'm curious how Americans abuse military history? Mind you, I'm not challenging your perception (and in all honesty I'm not really equipped to do that as I took not much more than the bare mininum of American history) I just want to know if the abuse that you see is the same abuse that I see. :lol:

By "abusing" military history, I mean that the majority of rifles like this are used as "junker" guns, guns you'll take out instead of your nice rifle, guns you'll not take care of, guns you'll let rust because, hey, you only paid $60 for it. They're treated as disposable, and even though they made millions of them, they're still an interesting piece of history.

cozener
09-17-2008, 04:38 PM
Ah ok, I was thinking something completely different...like how the Revolutionary War is presented in public schools for instance.

But have you used that rifle?



Being an Army brat I've been in school in both the North and South. I wouldn't say that the South is really taught anything different. It is taught that the South had slaves and lost and what have you, but something that always bothered me was that the section on the actual slavery part was only about a paragraph... It's mentioned, but the details aren't given on how the slaves were treated and the lynchings and all that. And that's true for both sides. I think the North doesn't want to admit they ignored it and the South doesn't want to acknowledge that they did it. It's a terrible insult to the memory of the people who endured it and those who fought to get rid of it.

It wasn't just a question of the North tolerating it. In the beginning the North had slaves as well. But the North had an easier time of doing away with slavery because its economy wasn't driven by it. And there was plenty of racism to go around no matter what part of the country you were in. In fact, I daresay that there are at least a few places up North that are every bit as racist as any place below the Mason Dixon line you'd care to name.

I was born in South Carolina and lived there up until I was 12. Before we understood what the war was even about my friends and I were firmly under the impression that the Confederacy were the good guys. The Union wasn't demonized necessarily but they certainly were not protrayed as protagonists in any media I was exposed to unless it was discussing the "fighting" of Native Americans. At worst, Confederate soldiers were misguided but never villainous. I was always proud of the fact that my great-great grandfather was in the Confederate cavalry. But I suppose little Hans living over in Bremen is as proud of his grandfather flying a Messerschmitt for the Luftwaffe as I am of my ancestor riding a horse for the Stars & Bars.

theBeamisHome
09-17-2008, 05:04 PM
It wasn't just a question of the North tolerating it. In the beginning the North had slaves as well. But the North had an easier time of doing away with slavery because its economy wasn't driven by it. And there was plenty of racism to go around no matter what part of the country you were in. In fact, I daresay that there are at least a few places up North that are every bit as racist as any place below the Mason Dixon line you'd care to name.


I was born in South Carolina and lived there up until I was 12. Before we understood what the war was even about my friends and I were firmly under the impression that the Confederacy were the good guys. The Union wasn't demonized necessarily but they certainly were not protrayed as protagonists in any media I was exposed to unless it was discussing the "fighting" of Native Americans. At worst, Confederate soldiers were misguided but never villainous. I was always proud of the fact that my great-great grandfather was in the Confederate cavalry. But I suppose little Hans living over in Bremen is as proud of his grandfather flying a Messerschmitt for the Luftwaffe as I am of my ancestor riding a horse for the Stars & Bars.

I know this to be a fact. apparently the headquarters to the KKK was somewhere near where i lived in NJ... or a headquarters... maybe just a surburban legend, but my high school had race wars... it was awful... one year this guy came dressed in "black face" with a neon orange prison jumpsuit on for halloween... caused a bit of a stir. but then again i got racially slurred when i was in second grade in virginia too :lol:. the stuff is everywhere... i'm forward-moving, but i don't deny that it's around.. and it goes both ways. i go to a HBCU so i know plenty of black people that have misconstrued ideas about white people... one of the reasons i didn't want to come to a school like this... unrealistic setting if you ask me... anyways.. in my opinion, all racism stems from ignorance (in it's purest definition), knowledge is power...

theBeamisHome
09-18-2008, 05:09 AM
ok this could go in the everyday quotes thread too, but it has a little relevance here too i think to how cultures within america can be really isolated from each other... and it's just hilarious and sad.

ok so the set up: Nigel had to go with a sexual assault assembly.. so they're watching all these scenarios and stuff. and then the presenters ask the audience what would be some characteristics of a stranger raper (because 80% of rapes happen with someone you know).. so everyone starts shouting out things like "fat", "low self esteem", "ugly" (which was bad enough of course)... then some girl yells out "dark"... and the room sort of went silent... Nigel said the presenters tried to cover it up saying how people believe some stereotypes. :wtf::cry:

alinda
09-18-2008, 05:15 AM
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff5/WitchyWoman_0000/A%20Starters/Native%20American/28-1.gif

jayson
09-18-2008, 05:19 AM
+1 on the Chief Seattle quote Linda! :thumbsup:
Nice graphic too!

alinda
09-18-2008, 11:20 AM
*bows*

Poisonbat
09-18-2008, 06:33 PM
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff5/WitchyWoman_0000/A%20Starters/Native%20American/28-1.gif

Love this, will keep a copy of it on my desktop. Wish everyone felt this way.:orely: