PDA

View Full Version : What would Roland's salvation be?



MonteGss
08-04-2007, 08:24 AM
What will Roland see through the final door at the top of the Tower once his loop is completed?
I am assuming here that the loop will end someday. You may not agree but use your imaginations!

I've thought about this since I first read the final pages of DT7. I know people have touched on this in other threads but, as I said, I want to hear your thoughts on what his final door will show?

A clearing? His ka-tet? A large-breasted, older Susan? :)
What can be a suitable and memorable end for Roland?

Tell me, I beg.

Jean
08-04-2007, 09:46 AM
Clearing. What he will actually see when he dies (and that's what he will do behind the last door, just as what he saw in the first room were his birththings) is a mystery, of course, but in the terms he is habitual to, yes, it's the clearing at the end of the path.

Daghain
08-04-2007, 12:51 PM
I agree with Jean. And I also think all the friends he calls to will call back to him. And they'll all be together again.

But I like happy endings like that. :)

She-Oy
08-04-2007, 10:37 PM
He'll see a clearing. But I'm not sure what he sees is as important as what he feels or experiences. Maybe a clearing is just that....nothing. A clean slate.

Darkthoughts
08-08-2007, 12:52 PM
The clearing in the form of a nice, big, comfy bed.

Wuducynn
08-08-2007, 12:55 PM
And Darkthoughts waiting for him in said, nice, big, comfy bed with nothing on but an inviting smile...

Darkthoughts
08-08-2007, 12:58 PM
Stop reading my mind like that!!...:lol:

Wuducynn
08-08-2007, 01:00 PM
It just comes naturally to me, you know that.

ZoNeSeeK
08-13-2007, 12:16 AM
Roland will see my hand

giving him a firm slap in the face :)

Cutter
08-13-2007, 10:52 AM
Clearing. What he will actually see when he dies (and that's what he will do behind the last door, just as what he saw in the first room were his birththings) is a mystery, of course, but in the terms he is habitual to, yes, it's the clearing at the end of the path.
I agree, it's his death. He will have finally completed his mission for Ka, and he is done.

fernandito
08-20-2007, 08:39 PM
Roland will see my hand

giving him a firm slap in the face :)

:lol:
:lol:
:lol:
:lol:


I heart you.

ZoNeSeeK
08-20-2007, 08:47 PM
:P

Why do you think the Tower requires him to have the Horn of Eld? Does it form some sort of key, along with him and his guns? Is it something the Tower needs to correct the imbalance caused by the Crimson King?

fernandito
08-21-2007, 08:01 AM
Perhaps it stands as symbol of his change, his progress, if you will.

MonteGss
08-23-2007, 11:29 AM
I also think all the friends he calls to will call back to him. And they'll all be together again.


I like this idea. Whoever he calls to while walking towards the Tower will meet him. :)

Sai_Rhavan
12-02-2007, 12:22 PM
Assuming that what he sees is too wonderful to imagine, It'd be hilarious if this time he reaches the correct door, opens it, and dies of shock.
That'd be the biggest rip-off to the fans, though... fingers crossed!

alinda
12-02-2007, 02:56 PM
:innocent: yes lovely, all together







I also think all the friends he calls to will call back to him. And they'll all be together again.


I like this idea. Whoever he calls to while walking towards the Tower will meet him. :)

Odetta
12-03-2007, 07:34 AM
:P

Why do you think the Tower requires him to have the Horn of Eld?

I posted this somewhere else, but I can't recall where...

You know when you finally beat a video game and they give you some useless shit for beating it, which is silly because you've beaten it already? THAT'S the HORN.

sai delgado
12-03-2007, 07:37 AM
when he finally opens the door at the top of the tower...
a happy ending would be great
but i don't think that is King's style, I mean that is after all why the ending of the dark tower was as it was
i really dont know

LadyHitchhiker
12-03-2007, 07:46 AM
Okay... here's my two ideas...

He will see either a.) Stephen King

or b.) a rose he must tend to....

At least that was my original idea of how the book would end... now, who knows?

Storyslinger
12-04-2007, 10:32 AM
I feel that he will be reunited with all the lost members of his past in the clearing

sai delgado
12-05-2007, 04:05 AM
I think he would probably die, after all those loops he must be quite old, so death would probably be a blessing. But maybe he will end up in a world like the one susannah went to, with all of his loved ones together again.

Or maaaaybe :evil: he will enter a dark and scary place in the gap between worlds to the sound of dudachuck? dudachee? and the last cries of roland will be NOOOO :panic:
:lol:

Darkthoughts
12-05-2007, 04:19 AM
I did think...along time ago...that Mother Abagail was going to be the Tower, or at the top of it. Can't remember now why I thought that?

I thought though (and still think) that ultimately Roland will find his death there eventually, but it will be a sweet release.

jayson
12-05-2007, 05:15 AM
Personally, I don't think Roland will ever "complete the loop." I like the idea of Roland as a mythological figure and in a lot of mythology the circle never ends, death and rebirth keep going around and around. Ka won't end, and neither will Roland's travels. Now, if I had to choose what I would want for an ending for Roland if his travels ever did end, it'd be to be reunited with Susan.

Darkthoughts
12-05-2007, 06:27 AM
Yes, I've been thinking more and more this past year that he represents the struggle between good and evil and that maybe Roland's loop is eternal - but the there's always the question of the horn...

jayson
12-05-2007, 06:38 AM
... but the there's always the question of the horn...

Good point Darkthoughts. I see it like this... what we don't know is this, when we first met Roland, we don't know how many times he has already done the loop. It is possible that he has already done this many times, each time making a "mistake" like dropping the horn that needs to be rectified the next time around. Let's assume that he remembers the horn on his next circuit, does he do everything else "correctly?" My personal thought is that each time around it is Roland's ka to "forget" something that he would need to complete the quest, forcing him to eternally repeat the cycle. Roland is an agent of the Tower's ka, and so long as the Tower stands, Roland goes around again.

Jean
12-05-2007, 06:51 AM
the above idea is for me personally the most abominable version I can imagine: Roland being a toy of forces (good, evil, Ka, whatever). Horn in this situation doesn't stand for anything but one of similar unnecessary things meant primarily for teasing him on and on; Roland himself is, as R of G said, a mythological figure - something immeasurably smaller than man, in other words (however titanic, monstrous, magic, etc). The story becomes dehumanized; all questions of redemption/salvation/free will become superfluous; Ka is left to play its foul games with its pawns, and the whole thing starts reminding of the world according to the people of Lud: history happens as demons beat their drums.

Rolands_Father
12-05-2007, 05:02 PM
I always saw roland opening that door for the final time and seeing...

Pillars and sheets of thick clouds, his lost friends and loved ones floating amongst them; and a bright white light shining from behind them. They would all step foreward and welcome him to the clearing at the end of his path. He would then look up to see a huge intricate turtle floating above them all.


Go figure.:)

Wuducynn
12-05-2007, 05:19 PM
history happens as demons beat their drums.

Yep. Thats how it is.

MonteGss
01-28-2008, 09:42 PM
I still do like the idea that Roland walks through the door and sees his precious Susan Delgado, bare breasted in all her glory., waiting for him. :)

LadyHitchhiker
01-28-2008, 11:36 PM
I still like the idea of Roland walking through the door and ending up confused in my apartment... :rofl:

Letti
01-28-2008, 11:50 PM
The way I see it whenever he reaches the door whenever he climps up the Tower the loop will restart. He can do anything... he must give up the Tower to reach the clearing. He must choose something else... maybe Jake... maybe after he and Patrick vanishes the CK he must put his guns at the bottom of the Tower and go away.
I don't know but if he opens that door the loop starts again. That's how I see it right now.

LadyHitchhiker
01-28-2008, 11:55 PM
I know, but I still think it would be funny if he ended up somewhere random... to see that look on Roland's face would be priceless...

Letti
01-28-2008, 11:58 PM
I know, but I still think it would be funny if he ended up somewhere random... to see that look on Roland's face would be priceless...

You foxy lady...

LadyHitchhiker
01-29-2008, 12:02 AM
That's me... the llamafox... ;)

MonteGss
01-29-2008, 08:33 AM
The way I see it whenever he reaches the door whenever he climps up the Tower the loop will restart. He can do anything... he must give up the Tower to reach the clearing. He must choose something else... maybe Jake... maybe after he and Patrick vanishes the CK he must put his guns at the bottom of the Tower and go away.
I don't know but if he opens that door the loop starts again. That's how I see it right now.

But the thread is about if he finishes the loop. I know lots of folk don't think it will ever end, I maybe one of them actually. But I am curious what would he see if the loop ends and is able to walk through the final door.

Letti
01-29-2008, 08:56 AM
If his loop and chasing could end at that very door (or at the other side of that door) he would open it and he would find millions of roses, that sing his name "Roland, gunslinger". But there wouldn't be a Tower just him and the roses. He could see and hear his friends in the roses. He would get all the answers he would see all the loops he would get back all his lost memories and suddenly he would feel incredibly old, wise and foolish at the same time. He would fall down and he would let his body give up he would close his eyes and he could hear that the roses are singing with all the lost friends and lovers' voices... "Roland, gunslinger, you could stand and be true. Come to me." He would close his eyes and he would find his peace.
He could be free first time in his life.

I know it's not too original but that how I would imagine it.

Yeah, but because I don't think he can find his peace at the other side of that door I don't think it can happen but if he could... I think something like I wrote about could wait for him there.

MonteGss
01-29-2008, 08:58 AM
If his loop and chasing could end at that very door (or at the other side of that door) he would open it and he would find millions of roses, that sing his name "Roland, gunslinger". But there wouldn't be a Tower just him and the roses. He could see and hear his friends in the roses. He would get all the answers he would see all the loops he would get back all his lost memories and suddenly he would feel incredibly old, wise and foolish at the same time. He would fall down and he would let his body give up he would close his eyes and he could hear that the roses are singing with all the lost friends and lovers' voices... "Roland, gunslinger, you could stand and be true. Come to me." He would close his eyes and he would find his peace.
I know it's not too original but that how I would imagine it.


Now that is the post I wanted to get from you Letti-dear. That description is fantastic! :thumbsup:

Wuducynn
01-29-2008, 09:00 AM
If his loop and chasing could end at that very door (or at the other side of that door) he would open it and he would find millions of roses, that sing his name "Roland, gunslinger". But there wouldn't be a Tower just him and the roses. He could see and hear his friends in the roses. He would get all the answers he would see all the loops he would get back all his lost memories and suddenly he would feel incredibly old, wise and foolish at the same time. He would fall down and he would let his body give up he would close his eyes and he could hear that the roses are singing with all the lost friends and lovers' voices... "Roland, gunslinger, you could stand and be true. Come to me." He would close his eyes and he would find his peace.
I know it's not too original but that how I would imagine it.

Yeah, but because I don't think he can find his peace at the other side of that door I don't think it can happen but if he could... I think something like I wrote about could wait for him there.

Damn, just..damn. Reading this actually got me a little choked up.

sarah
01-29-2008, 09:05 AM
Letti, thank you for that image. It just made my morning. :couple:

Letti
01-29-2008, 09:06 AM
Ohhh... thank you, my friends. :rose:

Storyslinger
01-29-2008, 09:07 AM
Ayuh, well stated.

Jean
01-30-2008, 01:21 AM
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_thumb.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_thumb.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_thumb.gif
Again, like in the recent case of TerribleT and his question about murder - a description in non-religious terms of what is for me a perfectly Christian idea (Roland definitely dies and goes to Heaven) is given. Thank you love.

Darkthoughts
01-30-2008, 05:23 AM
That was beautiful, Letti :rose:

LadyHitchhiker
01-30-2008, 10:53 AM
If his loop and chasing could end at that very door (or at the other side of that door) he would open it and he would find millions of roses, that sing his name "Roland, gunslinger". But there wouldn't be a Tower just him and the roses. He could see and hear his friends in the roses. He would get all the answers he would see all the loops he would get back all his lost memories and suddenly he would feel incredibly old, wise and foolish at the same time. He would fall down and he would let his body give up he would close his eyes and he could hear that the roses are singing with all the lost friends and lovers' voices... "Roland, gunslinger, you could stand and be true. Come to me." He would close his eyes and he would find his peace.
He could be free first time in his life.

I know it's not too original but that how I would imagine it.

Yeah, but because I don't think he can find his peace at the other side of that door I don't think it can happen but if he could... I think something like I wrote about could wait for him there.



Well that's how I pictured the ending occurring before I even found tdt.net or tdt.com... So it just means you and I think alike! :excited: :onfire:

alinda
01-30-2008, 11:07 AM
Which one of you posted that fanfic story rewiriting the end?
That was nice, did you read it?

LadyHitchhiker
01-30-2008, 11:24 AM
It was lovely but I don't remember who did it :(

Woofer
01-30-2008, 07:25 PM
The way I see it whenever he reaches the door whenever he climps up the Tower the loop will restart. He can do anything... he must give up the Tower to reach the clearing. He must choose something else... maybe Jake... maybe after he and Patrick vanishes the CK he must put his guns at the bottom of the Tower and go away.
I don't know but if he opens that door the loop starts again. That's how I see it right now.

I believe similar: that he must 1) cry off or 2) save the Tower for selfless reasons and be invited in (so to speak).


If his loop and chasing could end at that very door (or at the other side of that door) he would open it and he would find millions of roses, that sing his name "Roland, gunslinger". But there wouldn't be a Tower just him and the roses. He could see and hear his friends in the roses. He would get all the answers he would see all the loops he would get back all his lost memories and suddenly he would feel incredibly old, wise and foolish at the same time. He would fall down and he would let his body give up he would close his eyes and he could hear that the roses are singing with all the lost friends and lovers' voices... "Roland, gunslinger, you could stand and be true. Come to me." He would close his eyes and he would find his peace.
He could be free first time in his life.

:clap: :rock: :rose:

But if it has to end with opening the door... what she said.

childeluke
01-31-2008, 07:15 PM
I always saw roland opening that door for the final time and seeing...

Pillars and sheets of thick clouds, his lost friends and loved ones floating amongst them; and a bright white light shining from behind them. They would all step foreward and welcome him to the clearing at the end of his path. He would then look up to see a huge intricate turtle floating above them all.


Go figure.:)

......i usually don't do this but----*SLAP*. I hope you aren't in the creative writing field.

I think death is the most likely choice(but then he could choose to end the cycle whenever he wants). However, there is also the possibility of Roland becoming completely non-existent in life, death, heaven, hell--whatever.
I wouldn't mind seeing the door opening on the New York where the rest of his ka-tet resides(with the takuro spirit and nozz-ala).

MonteGss
02-20-2008, 03:21 PM
Yes, that would also be a very "happy" ending...Roland reuniting with his "tet" in other New York. :)

walterodim
03-04-2008, 04:50 PM
My two cents.

After entering the door Roland sees himself as the teenager he was on that day with Marten and his mother. Knowing what to do he wishes to go back to that day. I always felt (it is also stated in the book I think)that day was the key moment.

Imagine Roland had never encountered Marten and his mother.
It may sound weird, but I think Roland would be way more happier with a life inside the walls of Gilead and fighting not knowing they would lose the war even though they would won the battles. Not knowing about his unfaithfull mother and his doomed world.
Roland would be happy, I have no doubt about it. He would live a more human and simple life. This would be the happy ending for Roland in my mind.

For myself I can't imagine a worse ending then this.:beat:
But yeah it would work for Roland.:)

alinda
03-04-2008, 06:32 PM
All of these are wonderful ideas, but OH Letti, your thoughts amaze me!!
Just beautiful as always my dear. Would that then be the clearing for him? YES.





I still like the idea of Roland walking through the door and ending up confused in my apartment... :rofl:

If his loop and chasing could end at that very door (or at the other side of that door) he would open it and he would find millions of roses, that sing his name "Roland, gunslinger". But there wouldn't be a Tower just him and the roses. He could see and hear his friends in the roses. He would get all the answers he would see all the loops he would get back all his lost memories and suddenly he would feel incredibly old, wise and foolish at the same time. He would fall down and he would let his body give up he would close his eyes and he could hear that the roses are singing with all the lost friends and lovers' voices... "Roland, gunslinger, you could stand and be true. Come to me." He would close his eyes and he would find his peace.
He could be free first time in his life.





Yes, that would also be a very "happy" ending...Roland reuniting with his "tet" in other New York. :)

razz
08-25-2008, 05:43 PM
I hear everyone saying that somehow, Roland my achieve Salvation, and end the loops. No my question is what exactly does salvation mean? or more precisely, what does it mean when applied to Roland? Bcause there are many forms of salvation. it could mean he is going to get to go to heaven. it may mean he is actually able stop and have loved ones. It could mean he can finally reast, or actually get to see what is at the top without being sucked back through time.
Or he could finally be allowed to die.
What do you think?

The Lady of Shadows
08-25-2008, 09:54 PM
i don't know exactly what it means in toto but i do believe that part of it is he doesn't slaughter the entire town of tull. or rape sylvia pittston with his gun. i think a part of his salvation lies in not only acknowledging that a trap lies waiting for him in tull (which he does) but in doing something to avoid that trap (which he doesn't).

i've also often wondered if part of his salvation might not entail making the decision to not drop jake. however, that leads to an entirely different set of circumstances. would he still go toward the sea and find the doors? would he know what to do with them? would he draw susannah and eddie? what would happen to jake in his world during the time between his first drawing and the time of his second "real" drawing?

i'm still thinking about this though, so i might have some other ideas later. anyone else?

Jean
08-25-2008, 09:59 PM
I think that the Dark Tower being a book where all contexts converge, everyone (who uses this word at all, I mean - we are actually not that many) understands it in accordance with the terms in which his concept of the world is shaped. For me it means that after he dies he goes immediately to Heaven; I already mentioned elsewhere that I totally consider Roland a Saint, like St. Joan of Arc, St.George, St.Ignatius Loyola, St.Martin of Tours, or St. Louis IX (I see parallels with many others, too).

razz
08-26-2008, 05:43 AM
i don't know exactly what it means in toto but i do believe that part of it is he doesn't slaughter the entire town of tull. or rape sylvia pittston with his gun. i think a part of his salvation lies in not only acknowledging that a trap lies waiting for him in tull (which he does) but in doing something to avoid that trap (which he doesn't).

i've also often wondered if part of his salvation might not entail making the decision to not drop jake. however, that leads to an entirely different set of circumstances. would he still go toward the sea and find the doors? would he know what to do with them? would he draw susannah and eddie? what would happen to jake in his world during the time between his first drawing and the time of his second "real" drawing?

i'm still thinking about this though, so i might have some other ideas later. anyone else?
well you make good points, but i'm not asking How he could obtain salvation, I'm asking what kind of salvation he'll obtain. and is there another word for salvation i can use, because I'm using way toom any times in one paragraph.

fernandito
08-26-2008, 06:14 AM
Given the nature of the quest and it's main protagonist, you could probably substitute Salvatation for Redemption.

Letti
08-26-2008, 06:19 AM
Razz, if you don't mind I will move this thread to DT7 section. It fits there a lot.
When I get home I will try to write down my thoughts about the question, too.

jayson
08-26-2008, 06:19 AM
I think it's a good question Razz. To me, Roland's "salvation" would entail being able to die, just die. I cannot say what, if anything, would become of him at that point. I do not have any specific beliefs as to what may or may not come after physical death in the temporal world. I prefer some metaphors to others, but unless and until it happens to me, I can only say I don't know.

razz
08-26-2008, 06:19 AM
sure thanks

Matt
08-26-2008, 06:39 AM
I think his "salvation" means to cry off the obsession.

The Lady of Shadows
08-27-2008, 05:21 PM
sorry razz, i misunderstood at the beginning. i think i get it now.

perhaps his salvation is simply that he gets to live the rest of his life out without circling back continuously. he does everything he needs to do to the best of his ability, without the ferocious and unyielding implacableness that is his trademark, and in the end he gets to just live.

in the calla is where i'd like to see him, with rosa. then in the end, he just dies peacefully in his sleep, having already come to terms with everything he's done in his life and all the choices he's made. and if he believes in heaven he ends up there, if he doesn't he ends up in a perfect, peaceful blackness. i think that part is up to him.

razz
08-27-2008, 06:35 PM
or perhaps he goes where Susannah went. but the only piece of that puzzle he'd fit into would be Eddie and Jake's Father. Maybe in that case Rosa would be there. more than likely Susan. Though while i can imagine Roland Dying peacefully in the Callas, i can't imagine him even living in New York, let alone spending the rest of his life there.

LadyHitchhiker
08-28-2008, 03:57 PM
Maybe he will meet his Susan in another world and they will be happy somewhere...

Jean
08-28-2008, 10:10 PM
Rosalita, you mean? http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wink-1.gif

Letti
08-28-2008, 11:55 PM
I think his "salvation" means to cry off the obsession.

exactly
To be able to cry off.
What comes after that... that's another good question.

Ka-tet
08-30-2008, 01:46 AM
There is only one salvation for Roland, and that salvation is death.

But to achieve salvation there must be redemption.

razz
08-30-2008, 04:46 AM
why do say that? death is the only option?

Matt
08-30-2008, 09:05 AM
I'm not high on the "he has to die" thing. I do not believe the actual top of the Tower is death for Roland (at least I hope not)

This entire thing is a cycle, I'm not convinced (at this point) that the Tower is even in jeopardy if Roland is not trying to save it.

Letti
08-30-2008, 10:14 AM
I don't think that death is the salvation because for my part I am sure that Roland can die anytime during the loop.

Jean
08-30-2008, 10:18 AM
Death is not salvation. Death is death. But

to conquer death
you only have to die
you only have to die...

[off topic]
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_shocked.gif forgot to list it when asked about favorite musicals! will edit when bearwife gives me back the computer
[/off topic]

Darkthoughts
01-02-2009, 03:04 PM
Just bumping this thread as Jackie's thread is more or less a companion to it. Whilst Jackie's discusses what we thought we would see, Monte's asks what we think he will see on his final loop (if you think he will ever end looping ;) )

MonteGss
01-02-2009, 04:20 PM
Cheers!
My mind changes daily on whether or not Roland will end the loop...doesn't matter too much for this thread anyway.

I still like the idea of him reaching the clearing, where he is reunited with everyone who he calls out as he walks towards the Tower. :D

Wuducynn
01-09-2009, 09:56 PM
If his loop and chasing could end at that very door (or at the other side of that door) he would open it and he would find millions of roses, that sing his name "Roland, gunslinger". But there wouldn't be a Tower just him and the roses. He could see and hear his friends in the roses. He would get all the answers he would see all the loops he would get back all his lost memories and suddenly he would feel incredibly old, wise and foolish at the same time. He would fall down and he would let his body give up he would close his eyes and he could hear that the roses are singing with all the lost friends and lovers' voices... "Roland, gunslinger, you could stand and be true. Come to me." He would close his eyes and he would find his peace.
He could be free first time in his life.

This is it for me.

Bumbler19
01-22-2009, 02:50 AM
i don't know exactly what it means in toto but i do believe that part of it is he doesn't slaughter the entire town of tull. or rape sylvia pittston with his gun. i think a part of his salvation lies in not only acknowledging that a trap lies waiting for him in tull (which he does) but in doing something to avoid that trap (which he doesn't).

i've also often wondered if part of his salvation might not entail making the decision to not drop jake. however, that leads to an entirely different set of circumstances. would he still go toward the sea and find the doors? would he know what to do with them? would he draw susannah and eddie? what would happen to jake in his world during the time between his first drawing and the time of his second "real" drawing?

i'm still thinking about this though, so i might have some other ideas later. anyone else?

The other thing you have to think about would be then would Mordred then exist? and etc. with everyone he touched/killed. too much to think about

as for the original question...

one possibility could be that this IS his salvation... SK mentioned we should all know that it is the JOURNEY we live for, not the ending. Roland just doesn't realize it, not only that but he can continue to see Jake, Eddie, Suze, and Oy, the ones he loved. (personally i don't think that is it, just throwing it out there)

Letti's

I don't think that death is the salvation because for my part I am sure that Roland can die anytime during the loop.

I agree there.


Matt:: I'm not high on the "he has to die" thing. I do not believe the actual top of the Tower is death for Roland (at least I hope not)

This entire thing is a cycle, I'm not convinced (at this point) that the Tower is even in jeopardy if Roland is not trying to save it.

But the beam over Gilead fell before he decided to save it (correct me if i'm wrong it has been a while since i've read those parts) and LONG before his "restart" in the desert.

Darkthoughts
01-24-2009, 06:33 AM
I agree entirely with Jayson.

I have always imagined that death is at the top of the Tower for Roland. But to appreciate that, I guess it depends on your own opinion of death. To me it would be a release, a relief and a comfort to Roland - especially if you consider that at that moment in time he is aware of all the loops he has been on.

I'd love to see him in the Calla with Rosa, but I don't think he could ever truly happily do that, he'd be like a soldier back from Vietnam - unable to equate his new peaceful life with everything he's done and seen.

Letti
01-24-2009, 12:23 PM
As I have said I am with Matt that he must cry off the obsession. Now it's even clearer in my mind how it could happen or it's the only way I can imagine it happening.
Roland does reach the Tower but he doesn't enter. I know it sounds impossible but there must be a point when Roland realises his job is over when he sees the Dark Tower at the horizon.

jayson
01-24-2009, 03:09 PM
I know I've asked this a million times before, but I may as well ask it again... if Roland cries off and the CK is at the Tower and Mordred is on his way, what happens next? Perhaps if Roland cries off after disposing of the CK and Mordred then the crying off could be the End, but if he leaves them alive then what would stop them from bringing down the Tower and ending everything? Dunno. :orely:

Letti
01-24-2009, 03:11 PM
I don't think they can bring down the Tower at all. CK gets a prisoner on the balcony forever and Mordred dies alone somewhere no one can see him. It's just a sudden version that came to my mind but I do think they cannot destroy the Tower. Not even together.

jayson
01-24-2009, 03:14 PM
That's certainly possible Letti.

I just think it's equally possible that without opposition Mordred could make it to the Tower. What if Roland never went to Dandelo's house and Mordred ate him (Dandelo, not Roland) instead of his infected horse? Dandelo would have been a good meal for Mordred and made him quite powerful. Then Mordred gets to the Tower and frees Big Red and then...?

Of course there's no way we can know one way or the other but it's sure fun to think about. :)

Letti
01-24-2009, 03:20 PM
That's certainly possible Letti.

I just think it's equally possible that without opposition Mordred could make it to the Tower. What if Roland never went to Dandelo's house and Mordred ate him (Dandelo, not Roland) instead of his infected horse? Dandelo would have been a good meal for Mordred and made him quite powerful. Then Mordred gets to the Tower and frees Big Red and then...?

Of course there's no way we can know one way or the other but it's sure fun to think about. :)

I think Mordred was damned from the very beginning. He was so lost in the world... he didn't belong to anyone. I am not sure at all that he would have freed the CK. Certainly we can have just guesses about these questions.
And as I have written I think Roland can give up the Tower just in front of it.

jayson
01-24-2009, 03:45 PM
Definitely possible, and I agree, we have no idea what Mordred would do in a situation like that.

boomstick75
02-09-2009, 10:41 AM
Maybe the top of the tower is a double sided reward/punishment of looking into ka and seeing one's place there. It is a split second of "knowing". Personal knowledge being the sum of our experiences, the top of the tower is the top of all things, a place outside of time. The top of the tower is truly absolution. To be united with ka for only one second allows you to see where you are in it and be given the tools to change the outcome (within certain parameters where the tools never really have the instruction manuals with them). However, ka acts much like the "be careful what you wish for" irony of most Twilight Zone episodes. Ka shows you what is, not the ideal of what you want, and this is why Roland has repeated his quest so many times. I believe the line of Eld is about upholding the idea of serving the "justice" of ka for the will of the White. Roland, in that sense, has forgotten the face of his father, because he is serving his desire. The tower is represented by different symbols on different worlds, because it is, in itself is a symbol. For many the end of the quest and their ultimate reward is the very thing that Roland sees as punishment: a second chance. Those that come to the tower with the true artifact of the Line of Eld (selflessness) will be allowed to enter and given the REWARD of repeating their life or the choice to look at all of their decisions on the way up and live out the rest of their days with the knowledge that they saved the tower and were conscious enough of their soul and the weight of love to save everything that they cared about. It is never about saving the dark tower. It is about saving the facilitator of life.

This has been the closest that Roland has ever been to either wanting to repeat his life or having the wisdom to not "have to know" if he himself has not "absolved" the remainder of his sins. If Jake and Eddie and Oy had lived (probably through an alternate chain of events based on Roland's decisions) Roland might venture to the top to repeat their adventure out of free will. They might all go given the opportunity to relive the feeling of being "ka-tet" for the first time, or in Eddie and Susannah's case: falling in love for the first time. Jake would know his true father (again for the first time).

The horn is another symbol. It is a symbol of growth. It is with Roland now because the Roland that reached the top this time WOULD have picked the horn up. That latent thread exists now because of Roland's growth and this is the thread he is able to exist in when ka returns him to the desert. Roland does not have to relive the events preceeding it, he's simply able to access this thread now. This thread exists because of Roland's growth...just my two cents...sorry for the ramble...

candy
02-09-2009, 11:28 AM
i think he is supposed to break the loop, by not sacrificing all his tet for the tower. i think he is supposed to make the realisation that the tower can never be attained and he needs to love the people he is with. the horn is part of this - in that one small difference will have a future knock on effect with future decisions, and this next story may mark the end of the loop, because he has the horn as a reminder of people that lost their lives for his quest.

that just me though,

Matt
02-09-2009, 03:58 PM
I totally agree with you candy. Crying off is the key to Roland's redemption.

stone, rose, unfound door
02-10-2009, 01:23 PM
I think he either will see all his friends like in the poem or nothing at all because it's all too much for a human's mind to comprehend.

flaggwalkstheline
02-10-2009, 03:19 PM
Roland will wake up in a dark bedroom on the floor, go towards a room with lights on and see RANDALL FLAGG COMING OUT OF THE SHOWER! IT WAS ALL A DREAM!!!


ha ha ha outdated dallas references, I slay myself

obscurejude
02-10-2009, 09:38 PM
I totally agree with you candy. Crying off is the key to Roland's redemption.

My only problem with this is the Tower calling Roland's name. If that's the key, then God hates Roland and he's better off not entering the clearing.

I honestly think King just needed a way to end it... the horn isn't even mentioned until Wolves of the Calla and this whole obsession thing is barely mentioned until DT 7. If it was a leitmotif then it would have more singularity. I think Browning's poem has to do with realizing your damnation just by existing, and maybe Roland's obsessiveness makes him more aware than other humans because he does reach the nexus of existence, which is symbolized by a dark tower and a vindictive god.

No, writing papers on Franz Kafka has had no effect on me at all the past couple of weeks. :lol:

The King of Kings
02-11-2009, 09:18 AM
Wasn't the prophecy that he got to the top and he would rule over the prim or something? I can't remember exactly ><

jayson
02-11-2009, 09:34 AM
I think Browning's poem has to do with realizing your damnation just by existing.

Well said Ryan. People wonder why I think Buddhism and existentialism are essentially the same thing. That statement could represent either one.

obscurejude
02-11-2009, 09:43 AM
I think Browning's poem has to do with realizing your damnation just by existing.

Well said Ryan. People wonder why I think Buddhism and existentialism are essentially the same thing. That statement could represent either one.

"realizing your damnation just by existing" wouldn't fare so well if it was a blurb on the back of a modern translation of the Tao Te Ching. :rofl:

I get your point, though, and I tend to agree. That being said, I'm much more versed in existentialists than Buddhists.

Jean
02-11-2009, 09:49 AM
People wonder why I think Buddhism and existentialism are essentially the same thing.
People wonder... Bears don't.

jayson
02-11-2009, 10:01 AM
I get your point, though, and I tend to agree. That being said, I'm much more versed in existentialists than Buddhists.

When my academic pursuits dictated that I started reading large amounts of both in the same period, I began to see that they were essentially using the same metaphors.



People wonder why I think Buddhism and existentialism are essentially the same thing.
People wonder... Bears don't.

Of course not. :thumbsup:

pathoftheturtle
05-07-2009, 07:36 AM
What will Roland see through the final door at the top of the Tower once his loop is completed?
...
Tell me, I beg.http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s12/POTT2007/otstw.jpg

LadyHitchhiker
05-08-2009, 03:22 AM
I always saw roland opening that door for the final time and seeing...

Pillars and sheets of thick clouds, his lost friends and loved ones floating amongst them; and a bright white light shining from behind them. They would all step foreward and welcome him to the clearing at the end of his path. He would then look up to see a huge intricate turtle floating above them all.


Go figure.:)

......i usually don't do this but----*SLAP*. I hope you aren't in the creative writing field.

I think death is the most likely choice(but then he could choose to end the cycle whenever he wants). However, there is also the possibility of Roland becoming completely non-existent in life, death, heaven, hell--whatever.
I wouldn't mind seeing the door opening on the New York where the rest of his ka-tet resides(with the takuro spirit and nozz-ala).

"Death, but not for you gunslinger."

Wuducynn
05-09-2009, 08:43 AM
What will Roland see through the final door at the top of the Tower once his loop is completed?
...
Tell me, I beg.http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s12/POTT2007/otstw.jpg

:thumbsup: Awesome

Kidd Ikarus
05-12-2009, 06:08 AM
Before I finished the series, I always imagined Roland finding the Tower, climbing to the top and (i don't know quite how to put it), becoming some kind of ruler/ guardian of the Tower and sitting in the top room for eternity. The picture that kept going through my head was Roland sitting in some large stone chair, kind of like Arnold Schwarzenegger (sp?) at the end of Conan the Destroyer . . . sitting on his throne, waiting, ruling.

But now that I have finished it . . . I don't know. I agree with some people on here, that maybe he'll find the clearing at the end of the path. To finally be allowed to rest. Maybe even a little more dramatic than that . . . Maybe God or Gan, in this case . . . maybe even Arthur Eld, will welcome him into the Kingdom of Heaven and thank him for the work he has done. Yeah, I kinda like that. :clap:

Kidd Ikarus
05-12-2009, 08:45 AM
I think the horn is the major key. I think Roland is supposed to complete his quest and reach the top with the horn. Then, his salvation will be the clearing at the end of the path . . . hopefully Heaven . . . hopefully a clearing where he can meet up with those he loved and lost.

How can Roland cry off the Tower? How would he be able to, when the loop brings him back to the beginning and wipes his memory. The obsession would be just as strong and as powerful as it was when the obsession brought him to the desert in the first place. I think it says something like . . . "Everytime will be just like the first time . . . It will be the first time, for him" . . . Or something along those lines. He has to make it to the top or else he will never do it right.

That's what I'm thinkin anyways.

Lily-sai
05-12-2009, 12:02 PM
Kidd Ikarus' writing somehow suddenly reminded me of King Arthur's final resting place, Ynys Witrin, in the Isle of Avalon, where, according to the legend, he is sleeping and awaiting for the time when world will need him again. My mind works in strange ways.

But I love Letti's and Kidd's thoughts. :adore: <3

jayson
05-12-2009, 12:03 PM
Kidd Ikarus' writing somehow suddenly reminded me of King Arthur's final resting place, Ynys Witrin, in the Isle of Avalon, where, according to the legend, he is sleeping and awaiting for the time when world will need him again.

Like Feanor waiting in the Halls of Mandos. :)

Kidd Ikarus
05-12-2009, 12:08 PM
Kidd Ikarus' writing somehow suddenly reminded me of King Arthur's final resting place, Ynys Witrin, in the Isle of Avalon, where, according to the legend, he is sleeping and awaiting for the time when world will need him again. My mind works in strange ways.

But I love Letti's and Kidd's thoughts. :adore: <3

Thankee Lily-sai! :rose:

Lily-sai
05-12-2009, 12:12 PM
Kidd Ikarus' writing somehow suddenly reminded me of King Arthur's final resting place, Ynys Witrin, in the Isle of Avalon, where, according to the legend, he is sleeping and awaiting for the time when world will need him again.

Like Feanor waiting in the Halls of Mandos. :)

*sighs happily*
Yes, oh yes. Till the Dagor Dagorath comes upon them and FŽanor will be called back. Jayson, :rose:

pathoftheturtle
06-01-2009, 08:12 AM
sal⋅va⋅tion salvation (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/salvation)
[sal-vey-shuh n] –noun
1. the act of saving or protecting from harm, risk, loss, destruction, etc.
2. the state of being saved or protected from harm, risk, etc.
3. a source, cause, or means of being saved or protected from harm, risk, etc.
4. Theology. deliverance from the power and penalty of sin; redemption.

re⋅demp⋅tion redemption (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/redemption)
[ri-demp-shuh n] –noun
1. an act of redeeming or the state of being redeemed.
2. deliverance; rescue.
3. Theology. deliverance from sin; salvation.
4. atonement for guilt.
5. repurchase, as of something sold.
6. paying off, as of a mortgage, bond, or note.
7. recovery by payment, as of something pledged.

a⋅tone⋅ment atonement (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atonement)
[uh-tohn-muh nt] –noun
1. satisfaction or reparation for a wrong or injury; amends.
2. (sometimes initial capital letter ) Theology. the doctrine concerning the reconciliation of God and humankind, esp. as accomplished through the life, suffering, and death of Christ.
3. Christian Science. the experience of humankind's unity with God exemplified by Jesus Christ.
4. Archaic. reconciliation; agreement.

ab⋅so⋅lu⋅tion absolution (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/absolution)
[ab-suh-loo-shuh n] –noun
1. act of absolving; a freeing from blame or guilt; release from consequences, obligations, or penalties.
2. state of being absolved.
3. Roman Catholic Theology.
a. a remission of sin or of the punishment for sin, made by a priest in the sacrament of penance on the ground of authority received from Christ.
b. the formula declaring such remission.
4. Protestant Theology. a declaration or assurance of divine forgiveness to penitent believers, made after confession of sins.


"The thought of absolution had never crossed Roland’s mind, and he found the idea that he might need it (or that this man could give it) almost comic."
--DT5Roland is a pragmatic sort. I think that this is all that his alleged disinterest in philosophy means; he’s not much for metaphors or abstract assurances. Yet he is quite involved in the meaning of life... it's just that he wants practical results.
In terms of his own sins, I think that he’d be more interested in atoning than he is in absolution. Don’t forget that King did not promise salvation. What he said was that what the horn means is that Roland has a chance for redemption.

pathoftheturtle
06-27-2009, 07:42 AM
I was wrong. In the author's note, SK wrote, "...I hope the reader will see that by discovering the Horn of Eld, the gunslinger may finally be on the way to his own resolution. Possibly even to redemption. ..." That's what I was thinking of, but I had overlooked what is written a few pages before:

"This is your sigul, whispered the fading voice that bore with it the dusk-sweet scent of roses, the scent of home on a summer evening -- O lost! -- a stone, a rose, an unfound door; a stone, a rose, a door.
This is your promise that things may be different, Roland -- that there may yet be rest. Even salvation.
A pause, and then:
If you stand. If you are true."

So I guess that even if King did not promise "salvation," the Dark Tower does.

megaknight
07-15-2009, 08:55 PM
During the quest, Roland says (i think in the fourth book) that he would tell his ka-tet the story of how he lost the belt his mother made for him, but i don't recall ever hearing that story. I think that that item would be the key to Roland being released from the loop.

Letti
07-15-2009, 09:27 PM
He had never told the story of the lost belt. Or it wasn't written down in the series.
I don't think it could help Roland any way to get out of the loop but the idea is interesting. Why do you think so?

megaknight
07-15-2009, 09:32 PM
because it would show that he still loves his mother, even after she cheated on his father, and that he still has the ability to forgive.

Letti
07-15-2009, 09:56 PM
I think he did love his mother and he could forgive her but not as a child. He needed more time but I think the Gunslinger we met in the desert had forgiven her.

Russ
07-20-2009, 11:47 AM
With the whole Mordred part, I thought part of the book hinted that he could have cared less about CK and the tower? That all he wanted was someone to just care about him, really.

Letti
07-20-2009, 01:49 PM
With the whole Mordred part, I thought part of the book hinted that he could have cared less about CK and the tower? That all he wanted was someone to just care about him, really.

But he couldn't express his feelings, could he? ;)

Woofer
07-21-2009, 04:09 AM
I think he did love his mother and he could forgive her but not as a child. He needed more time but I think the Gunslinger we met in the desert had forgiven her.

I think you're right, Letti.

John Blaze
07-21-2009, 11:28 AM
I think there's objects in the series which are invested with Power. His guns, of course, the Horn of Eld, the Rook's head. But the belt seems like such an afterthought, and even though i'm sure it was important to him, it wasn't an important part of the story.

Also, I think King had alot more story to tell than he ended up doing, thus the comics. Whether they are canon or not is another discussion.

Empath of the White
07-22-2009, 06:46 AM
This bugged me a bit. I kind of figured it had something to do with forgiving Gabrielle though. I'm surprised it hasn't been addressed in one of Furth's prose pieces at the end of the comics.

Russ
07-22-2009, 09:10 AM
With the whole Mordred part, I thought part of the book hinted that he could have cared less about CK and the tower? That all he wanted was someone to just care about him, really.

But he couldn't express his feelings, could he? ;)

Only the feeling of hatred he had for Roland in the end lol. I haven't read the last book in over a year (re-reading the series again for the third time, on the second book) but I remeber a part where he is watching Roland, Oy and Sussanah and wishing he could be with them, then hating them for having each other.

ola
07-27-2009, 02:15 AM
I think that Roland's redemption would include making different choices along the way: saving Susan so she could have their baby (continuing the line of Eld and Tower-protectors), for one.

...these diferent choices would mean that Roland is changed. Become less obsessed and more human. Able to see when the quest is over, and able to turn back to the ones he loves - instead of becoming so possessed by a symbol (the Tower) that he must climb it himself no matter what the cost.

So I guess salvation = never going to the Tower, but protecting it through other means so that the universe doesn't explode.

(I tried not to go on and on about my theories of "how", it was tough! :D )

LadyHitchhiker
07-27-2009, 06:26 AM
I think his salvation could be Letti.

pathoftheturtle
07-27-2009, 07:10 AM
Roland or Mordred? :P

ola: It's good to stay on topic, so I hate to pick, but I just can't seem to sort cause and effect in your post. Do you think that he'll change because he makes different choices, or vice versa?

I have long thought it ironic that the dream of many, to change their past, is what we here call damnation. :orely:

ola
07-28-2009, 12:15 AM
Do you think that he'll change because he makes different choices, or vice versa?

I think that he learns to make different choices because of what he learns from past versions of his quest.

pathoftheturtle
07-28-2009, 04:12 PM
From the Tower, in other words.

You might be right, tho, that not going there anymore will finally be his resolution.

Whether that would constitute salvation, however, I'll need to further think upon.

Brice
07-28-2009, 04:15 PM
And what would he be needing salvation from?

pathoftheturtle
07-29-2009, 04:17 PM
The Red, of course! The crumbling chaos. If not for the fact that his world had moved on, he would not have promised himself to climb the Tower in the first place.
Roland was nodding. In his eyes Susannah saw an entirely new expression: glad surprise. Maybe he does know how to win, she thought. "Then eventually what has moved on might return again," the gunslinger said. "Perhaps Mid-World and In-World." He paused. "Perhaps even Gilead. The light. The White." -- Part Four, Chapter III

If the Dark Tower is healed, then Roland could stay in a Gilead that might have been. One without TMIB. Now, that would be deliverance.
Short of being sent home, though, to cry off will be no more than his own hard decision.

Delah
09-08-2009, 11:00 AM
Roland in a Gilead without the Man in Black, with the Tower safe ... that sounds ideal. And if the Tower is the nexus of all worlds and all times, if Roland gets this incarnation of it right, it could be possible. Maybe the door at the top of the Tower would take him to a Gilead where Susan is his wife and Jake their son, Eddie and Susannah are gunslingers, and the quest isn't necassary because Roland saved the Tower (and himself).

alinda
09-08-2009, 11:10 AM
love saves the day

LadyHitchhiker
09-08-2009, 11:49 AM
I agree, Linda.




Roland's salvation could be dying, reincarnating as a house cat and being adopted by me! ;)

pathoftheturtle
09-09-2009, 04:55 PM
Roland's salvation could be dying, reincarnating as a house cat and being adopted by me! ;):lol: Are you sure that you could handle that, LadyH? :scared:
Roland in a Gilead without the Man in Black, with the Tower safe ... that sounds ideal. And if the Tower is the nexus of all worlds and all times, if Roland gets this incarnation of it right, it could be possible. Maybe the door at the top of the Tower would take him to a Gilead where Susan is his wife and Jake their son, Eddie and Susannah are gunslingers, and the quest isn't necassary because Roland saved the Tower (and himself).Yar. :D
Nice, though I don't really expect that such would be Roland's ultimate destiny. We can't forget that even without the evil which came to destroy Gilead, there was quite a bit of evil inherent within it. Part of Roland's sin comes from the sins of his fathers. Yet, the point I was making is that redemption of him thus would necessarily involve redemption of them. "The king and the land are one." As the last son of All-World-that-was, Roland would presumably move forward to rebuilding from what is left after the Crimson King, assuming that he were so authorized by Gan.

Brice
09-09-2009, 05:38 PM
I think Roland's salvation is that he can't escape his quest. He must always seek and that's what he needs.

Letti
09-09-2009, 09:00 PM
Roland in a Gilead without the Man in Black, with the Tower safe ... that sounds ideal. And if the Tower is the nexus of all worlds and all times, if Roland gets this incarnation of it right, it could be possible. Maybe the door at the top of the Tower would take him to a Gilead where Susan is his wife and Jake their son, Eddie and Susannah are gunslingers, and the quest isn't necassary because Roland saved the Tower (and himself).

Why would salvation be this perfect? I don't think salvation means "happy ending". I feel salvation offers very little... a little (but very valuable) peace to your soul... a happy sigh at the end of the path. No more.


I think Roland's salvation is that he can't escape his quest. He must always seek and that's what he needs.

OMG, it sounds like hell and not like salvation. :) A never-ending quest is much more like a punishment than any salvation. IMHO of course.

Melike
09-10-2009, 03:51 AM
Roland in a Gilead without the Man in Black, with the Tower safe ... that sounds ideal. And if the Tower is the nexus of all worlds and all times, if Roland gets this incarnation of it right, it could be possible. Maybe the door at the top of the Tower would take him to a Gilead where Susan is his wife and Jake their son, Eddie and Susannah are gunslingers, and the quest isn't necassary because Roland saved the Tower (and himself).

Why would salvation be this perfect? I don't think salvation means "happy ending". I feel salvation offers very little... a little (but very valuable) peace to your soul... a happy sigh at the end of the path. No more.


I think Roland's salvation is that he can't escape his quest. He must always seek and that's what he needs.

OMG, it sounds like hell and not like salvation. :) A never-ending quest is much more like a punishment than any salvation. IMHO of course.

I think Roland loves the road to the Tower. Not the Tower itself. His biggest aim is this. It may be more like hell for Roland not to have a Tower to seek.

ManOfWesternesse
09-10-2009, 05:26 AM
.....It may be more like hell for Roland not to have a Tower to seek.
Hmmmm.... i don't know Melike.
I keep thinking of that fragmentary moment of utter despair when he realises for just a split second that he's been there before and he's going to be there again (..and again...) I don't think i've ever seen anguish like that in a Book before. I think your sentence is very true fro the Roland who was on his first quest, but by the time we met him i think it's otherwise for him. I think the clearing would be his salvation, if he can only reach it.

pathoftheturtle
09-10-2009, 11:10 AM
Roland in a Gilead without the Man in Black, with the Tower safe ... that sounds ideal. And if the Tower is the nexus of all worlds and all times, if Roland gets this incarnation of it right, it could be possible. Maybe the door at the top of the Tower would take him to a Gilead where Susan is his wife and Jake their son, Eddie and Susannah are gunslingers, and the quest isn't necassary because Roland saved the Tower (and himself).

Why would salvation be this perfect? I don't think salvation means "happy ending". I feel salvation offers very little... a little (but very valuable) peace to your soul... a happy sigh at the end of the path. No more.Serenity is the pinnacle of Buddhist "enlightenment." It seems to me that that is what you are equating Christian salvation with.
It's all very well to take the position that perfection is unattainable in reality, but do you really feel that it is not even conceivable as an abstraction? If "salvation" is not a proper word for the perfect, then what is?

Letti
09-10-2009, 11:28 AM
Roland in a Gilead without the Man in Black, with the Tower safe ... that sounds ideal. And if the Tower is the nexus of all worlds and all times, if Roland gets this incarnation of it right, it could be possible. Maybe the door at the top of the Tower would take him to a Gilead where Susan is his wife and Jake their son, Eddie and Susannah are gunslingers, and the quest isn't necassary because Roland saved the Tower (and himself).

Why would salvation be this perfect? I don't think salvation means "happy ending". I feel salvation offers very little... a little (but very valuable) peace to your soul... a happy sigh at the end of the path. No more.Serenity is the pinnacle of Buddhist "enlightenment." It seems to me that that is what you are equating Christian salvation with.
It's all very well to take the position that perfection is unattainable in reality, but do you really feel that it is not even conceivable as an abstraction? If "salvation" is not a proper word for the perfect, then what is?

Salvation might be perfect (as much as anything can be) but not like in a fairy tale. I don't think so. Roland having tons of children with Susan on a cute little farm and Jack and Eddie are his neighbours.. no way. IMHO salvation is about peace and not about happiness.
Happiness is very very fragile. So it can never be perfect.




Roland in a Gilead without the Man in Black, with the Tower safe ... that sounds ideal. And if the Tower is the nexus of all worlds and all times, if Roland gets this incarnation of it right, it could be possible. Maybe the door at the top of the Tower would take him to a Gilead where Susan is his wife and Jake their son, Eddie and Susannah are gunslingers, and the quest isn't necassary because Roland saved the Tower (and himself).

Why would salvation be this perfect? I don't think salvation means "happy ending". I feel salvation offers very little... a little (but very valuable) peace to your soul... a happy sigh at the end of the path. No more.


I think Roland's salvation is that he can't escape his quest. He must always seek and that's what he needs.

OMG, it sounds like hell and not like salvation. :) A never-ending quest is much more like a punishment than any salvation. IMHO of course.

I think Roland loves the road to the Tower. Not the Tower itself. His biggest aim is this. It may be more like hell for Roland not to have a Tower to seek.

Yeah, he loves it and I love chocolate muffin but if I had to eat chocolate muffin all in my life I would go crazy. Okay, it was a silly example what I meant is that although the Tower is the most important element in Roland's life it can't be the key to his salvation. He must give up his obsession to find the right way.
Of course I don't say truth is in my hands. Just my two cents.

Delah
09-10-2009, 11:50 AM
Ah. I guess its a question of linguistics, then. Splitting hairs is always fun.

Salvation or Perfection. I do think the Roland with Susan as his wife/Jake as his son in a rejuvenated Gilead is a little ... too perfect?

But Roland himself suggests the possibility that Gilead could be restored. If the Beams can heal themselves. So maybe its more an idealized version of what Roland might find at the end of the path, after he's reached salvation? If the Tower can send him anywhere/anywhen, once he's atoned for his mistakes and reached salvation, what should his end be? Death?


IMHO salvation is about peace

Interesting. Peace of the soul? Peace with all your sins? So Roland's salvation at the top of the tower would be death, and rest? Or just the simple knowledge that he has been true?

Letti
09-10-2009, 11:56 AM
IMHO salvation is about peace

Interesting. Peace of the soul? Peace with all your sins? So Roland's salvation at the top of the tower would be death, and rest? Or just the simple knowledge that he has been true?

Lots of good questions. :) I guess peace is different for most of us.

pathoftheturtle
09-10-2009, 03:44 PM
Salvation might be perfect (as much as anything can be) but not like in a fairy tale. I don't think so. Roland having tons of children with Susan on a cute little farm and Jack and Eddie are his neighbours.. no way. Okay. But why not? Are you saying that Roland needs to learn to be content with another form of salvation because of the fact that Gan will not provide a fairy tale ending, or more like Gan will not provide a fairy tale ending because of the fact that Roland needs to learn to be content with another form of salvation? I mean, theoretically, an all-powerful God could establish such a heaven, right? If lasting happiness is just not possible for people because of how we are, basically, then how does that differ from Brice's suggestion that Roland actually needs to remain unfulfilled?

Letti
09-10-2009, 08:50 PM
If lasting happiness is just not possible for people because of how we are, basically, then how does that differ from Brice's suggestion that Roland actually needs to remain unfulfilled?

That's why I say that death (and maybe only death) is salvation for Roland. And one happy and relived sigh before he reaches the end of the path.

pathoftheturtle
09-11-2009, 04:47 AM
Hm.:|

Say, this conversation has reminded me of a rather obscure example. If you can find a copy, you might want to check out Superman: Man of Tomorrow #15, titled "Heart of Hell."


http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/thumb/4/44/Superman_Man_of_Tomorrow_15.jpg/300px-Superman_Man_of_Tomorrow_15.jpg

This was one of the crossovers to D.C. Comics' old "Day of Judgment" series. Honestly, as a whole, that wasn't all that good. The plotline was kind of corny, (the writing in that company at that time was mostly amateurish) but I really dug this one issue for what it had to say.
What was going on was that, in an uprising against God and the supernatural order, all of hell had been released to terrorize the earth.
So, Neron, one of the principal demons behind it, then captured Superman, to prevent his interference, and held him alone in the empty underworld while other agents of good, mortal and angelic, were assembling to fight.
Knowing that he was not damned or certainly consigned, Neron had no assurance that Superman could not escape, so instead of torturing him, he trapped him in illusion, giving him a paradise and thinking that he wouldn't even try to flee if he forgot where he really was.
Plus, any time that something let the hero see through the deception, the demon lord would learn from that and cast a more sophisticated new hypnosis, thereby more convincing. (You may realize that this is somewhat like the problem of getting human beings to accept The Matrix.) In the case of Superman, though, not even artificial conflict and virtual accomplishments worked for long.
He was constantly driven by his true love for the real Lois Lane, and his genuine commitment to the actual human race. He just would not be satisfied even with having every wish that he had for himself granted, something which the devil could not understand.
"You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."

-- Abraham Lincoln

Letti
09-11-2009, 07:09 AM
I am not into comics at all but now you made me curious about this one. :)

pathoftheturtle
09-11-2009, 07:27 AM
Cool. :)
It's also interesting to notice that it was inked by a virtually unknown artist named Jeff Gan. :o

Brainslinger
09-13-2009, 04:56 PM
The blurb there concerning that Superman issue reminds me of the plot behind the Red Dwarf novel Better Than Life. There the illusion was a total immersion game which gives you your hearts desire, but in such a way that seems natural. It hides itself in your psyche so you don't even know you're in the game. Of course, if you stay you finally waste away and die unless you're on life support. Come to think of it the new mini series Red Dwarf: Back to Earth played with that idea too.

Ok, not really relevant to the discussion but it's interesting how these themes all pop up in different places though. Of course one major difference in Roland's case is that it's all reality for him, whether he's on his long walk towards the Tower or in his final happy place wherever/whatever that entails.

Melike
09-14-2009, 03:57 AM
.....It may be more like hell for Roland not to have a Tower to seek.
Hmmmm.... i don't know Melike.
I keep thinking of that fragmentary moment of utter despair when he realises for just a split second that he's been there before and he's going to be there again (..and again...) I don't think i've ever seen anguish like that in a Book before. I think your sentence is very true fro the Roland who was on his first quest, but by the time we met him i think it's otherwise for him. I think the clearing would be his salvation, if he can only reach it.




I think Roland's salvation is that he can't escape his quest. He must always seek and that's what he needs.

OMG, it sounds like hell and not like salvation. :) A never-ending quest is much more like a punishment than any salvation. IMHO of course.

I think Roland loves the road to the Tower. Not the Tower itself. His biggest aim is this. It may be more like hell for Roland not to have a Tower to seek.

Yeah, he loves it and I love chocolate muffin but if I had to eat chocolate muffin all in my life I would go crazy. Okay, it was a silly example what I meant is that although the Tower is the most important element in Roland's life it can't be the key to his salvation. He must give up his obsession to find the right way.
Of course I don't say truth is in my hands. Just my two cents.

Roland, is like a prisoner of a never ending love story about a love that can never be discovered, conquered truly. He loses it as soon as he has it. And he keeps being passionetely in love, and his feelings never turns into a 'peaceful but habitual' love.

cozener
09-14-2009, 10:10 AM
To attain salvation Roland has to do two things.

1) Not let Jake fall. He caught Walter once. He could catch him again. And he could have caught up with him that day if he really wanted to. I never got why Roland swallowed Walter's story that he had to choose between catching him or saving Jake.

2) He needs to cry off once the Tower is saved. The Tower is saved after Algul Siento with the freeing of the Breakers. There was no reason to pursue the Tower after that. The CK was helplessly stuck on the Tower. Mordred's only purpose in life was to kill Roland. Eventually Mordred would have came for him and Roland could have dealt with him then.

I don't think Tull damned him. After all, everyone there was trying to kill him. He was just defending himself. Of course, its not known what else Roland did before the story started that might have damned him. Actually, I don't think King was as successful as painting Roland as a "bad man" as he intended.

As far as what happens when Roland does achieve salvation? I like to think that he, Jake, Oy, and Susannah all go back to Gilead to reestablish that nation after burying Eddie. (sadly, this is one death that couldn't be avoided) With the help of Jake and Susannah Roland trains more gunslingers, rebuilds his father's government, and helps to bring order to back to Mid-world. Jake succeeds Roland and starts a long line of benevolent rulers and everyone in Mid-world is filled with warm fuzzies for at least a thousand years. :)

pathoftheturtle
09-15-2009, 10:45 AM
If I can make clear just one point on this thread, I'd really like for it to be that the word "salvation" does have a standard definition. Most of you are talking about liberation from the loop, and calling any means to that end which you prefer by this one term. I know this talk is predicated on the original question--
I hear everyone saying that somehow, Roland my achieve Salvation, and end the loops. No my question is what exactly does salvation mean? or more precisely, what does it mean when applied to Roland? Bcause there are many forms of salvation. it could mean he is going to get to go to heaven. it may mean he is actually able stop and have loved ones. It could mean he can finally reast, or actually get to see what is at the top without being sucked back through time.
Or he could finally be allowed to die.
What do you think?...but maybe all that it should come down to, in fact, is that "everyone" should just stop saying that Roland may achieve salvation. To be saved, there must be some savior other than oneself. If you believe that Roland must release himself from the loop by his own initative, that's fine, but I think that you should say that that will be his "happy ending," his "liberation," his "release," the "truth he must learn," or whatever. Just say so if you think that no one (and/or no One) is going to save him. I'd just like it to be clear that if that is the case, then it does not make sense to say that what he will have is "salvation."

Cozener: One question, atm; If Jake survives, that means that Stephen King dies. Am I right? Does that matter, in your view?

Wuducynn
09-23-2009, 09:11 AM
To attain salvation Roland has to do two things.

1) Not let Jake fall. He caught Walter once. He could catch him again. And he could have caught up with him that day if he really wanted to. I never got why Roland swallowed Walter's story that he had to choose between catching him or saving Jake.

2) He needs to cry off once the Tower is saved. The Tower is saved after Algul Siento with the freeing of the Breakers. There was no reason to pursue the Tower after that. The CK was helplessly stuck on the Tower. Mordred's only purpose in life was to kill Roland. Eventually Mordred would have came for him and Roland could have dealt with him then.

I don't think Tull damned him. After all, everyone there was trying to kill him. He was just defending himself. Of course, its not known what else Roland did before the story started that might have damned him. Actually, I don't think King was as successful as painting Roland as a "bad man" as he intended.


I agree with all of this. I think his biggest stumbling block to freedom from his loop is his belief that he must go to the Tower above all else. One day I hope he would come to the realization that even though he is sworn to got to the Tower, the Tower itself is his damnation.

cozener
09-23-2009, 12:01 PM
Cozener: One question, atm; If Jake survives, that means that Stephen King dies. Am I right? Does that matter, in your view? Ah...I'd forgotten about that. Damn King for writing himself into the story! Well...I guess that blows my idea of Jake succeeding Roland as ruler of Gilead, doesn't it? Hmmm...ok...then Roland goes to find his Calla piece of ass, marries her and produces a blood heir.

There.

Its fixed.

:D



I think his biggest stumbling block to freedom from his loop is his belief that he must go to the Tower above all else. Yes, if nothing else, the Dark Tower series stands as a warning that obsession can take a large toll and, as we see with Roland and his loved ones, not just on the person obsessed.

pathoftheturtle
09-29-2009, 12:12 PM
"...a little arrogance (or even a lot) isnít such a bad thing, although your mother undoubtedly told you different. Mine did. Pride goeth before a fall, Stephen, she said... and then I found outóright around the age that is 19 x 2óthat eventually you fall down, anyway. Or get pushed into the ditch."

~ Stephen King,
"On Being Nineteen"Life is not a fable. Not to say that there's no place for morality within it, but it is seldom easy to take a simple moral from events. Real humans have layered personalities because real truth has deep complexities. I think that King did quite an admirable job of exploring his theme without truncating it. Fanaticism is indeed bad, but what would you have left if you just threw out all of that? You have to stand for something, after all. One man's commitment may be foolishness to another, but what good is freedom, unless you know what it is for?
:orely:

...Roland trains more gunslingers, rebuilds his father's government, and helps to bring order to back... and everyone in Mid-world is filled with warm fuzzies for at least a thousand years. :)My basic problem is that a thousand years is really not very long. And I think that Roland Deschain would agree.
"Unless the Lord builds the house, they labor in vain who build it; Unless the Lord guards the city, the watchman stays awake in vain."

~ Psalm 127:1

lowdown
09-29-2009, 02:17 PM
good question .......everybody's pretty much covered how i feel but ......i wish the man could rest .......its seems like it would wear you down ....that why Sai King always constatly refers to him as looking tired and worn out .....that was my first hint at his fate being something that would keep him going till he drops..........but i never could have imagined the way it turned out........King is sneaky with his shit sometimes

Malice
12-20-2009, 03:16 PM
This is actually something I have thought about a lot and have had dreams about. Enough to where my wife would cuss me out the next morning for screaming at the top of my lungs while sleeping "ROLAND NO."

Honestly I see the horn being much more than a symbol. Roland thought at one time the tower was a symbol or my gans physical form. I think like in his dreams he is supposed to blow the horn upon entering the field of roses. Also a lot of people I talk to see everything start over once Roland begins the cycle again. I do not think keystone earth does this though, nor the tower. I could almost see Roland coming to the tower the first time when the 4th beam was about to break and seeing structures outside the field of roses later destroyed by beam quakes.

As for what Roland would see upon entering the door, this is from both dream and imagination. I see Roland opening the last door and stepping into the ruins of Gilead, with lots of noise surrounding him. The noise he associated with new york. It turns out to be construction and finds that the tet corporation after learning of the door under the dixie pig found a way there. Also they started to build their own doors.

He then goes to the training grounds where he faught cort entering through the east doorway. He finds a single person their of incredible beauty but at the same time kind of ruggid and used up. This person turns out to be the ghost of arthur eld. Roland in shock trys to flee believing this to be the last trick of Walter. But were there used to be just openings in the hedgewalls are now Ironwood doors.

The one facing west is marked Keystone New York. The one facing east is not marked. Arthur tells him if he steps through the New York door he would be reunited with Eddie, Susanna, Jake and Oy and work for the Tet Corp in training gunslingers to protect the rose and the tower (this time through Eddie, Jake and oy would live, but there would be a battle on the scale of Jerhico Hill between the Crimson King, Walter, the red army and Roland and the Tet which would leave the tet alive but badly injured). Arthur could not promise what would be behind the unmarked door.

Roland opens it and tries to step through but his body acts as though it has smacked a wall and falls down (think drawing of the three). But The body on the ground is just a Corpse. On the other side of the door Roland walks along a path for weeks, but he cannot see the beam above him. Finaly he comes to clearing. There at the clearing is his mother and father, Cort, Cuthbert, Allan, Sheemie and Susan (his age) sitting in a speaking circle eating a feast. Upon taking susans hand he instantly rushes through the sky and has thousands of visions (from the early days of the prim till now). When he awakes he is in a very large room with just a throne and on the other end of the room a stained glass window.

He looks through a window carved into the wall and sees hundreds of feet below a large red body of land which at first he mistakes for a sea of blood then realizes its the field of roses. He rushs over and tried to open the door when gan bellows "You should have listened gunslinger...death, but not for you." The door instantly stops looking important and falls to the ground. Roland screams for hours but then sits on Gan's throne his head begins to hurt and his memorys start fading.

The last voice he hears for 1919 years is The Crimson King's voice saying "Lets see how long it takes you to go insane little god. Lets see how long it takes before KA makes another fool quest over and over to stop you. You made it further than I did...but even as an agent of the white, you'll soon be just like me. And as the first beam snaps and ends thousands of lives you'll know only one thing, breaking is bliss and I say Thankya!"

Although that list bit of him being trapped in the tower isn't what I'd like to happen, I dreamed it and it kind of still creeps me out.

Malice
12-20-2009, 03:29 PM
But I agree with the others, my version of roland opening the final door is the clearing at the end of the path with susan standing their waiting. But for some reason when he steps through this door I see his body acting as though it has hit a wall and falling back (like in the drawing of the three) and only his soul stepping in the doorway. And seeing the Tet (not dead but very badly injured) burying him next to what the tet corp believes to be Susan's grave in Mejis.

sarah
12-20-2009, 05:51 PM
Hi Malice,


for some reason your earlier post needed to be approved. I did that so it should be public now. Sorry the inconvenience.


sarah

Malice
12-20-2009, 11:18 PM
Not a problem, thanks for getting to it so fast. This is the first message board I've been to were people actually do things like that. I like it here. :excited:

RolandLover
06-17-2011, 07:15 AM
I honestly believe his salvation is finding love again with another woman, to choose her and their love and cry off the Tower. Do the opposite of what happened to him which led to the quest. I think that was missing from his last journey. He loved again but it was just his ka-tet. I do want to another journey with Roland as I love this character and if so, I would hope it's with new characters.

Odetta
06-17-2011, 07:32 AM
don't let go of Jake

RolandLover
06-17-2011, 09:13 AM
Btw does anyone know how old Roland is suppose to be? According to Robin's Furth Concordance he is 336. At the start of the Gunslinger he was 36, then at the end he was aged 10yrs but since time is different in his world, there is no way of telling just how old Roland really is.

pathoftheturtle
06-17-2011, 09:46 AM
Btw does anyone know how old Roland is suppose to be? ...According to Robin's Furth's Concordance he is 336. At the start of the Gunslinger he was 36, then at the end he was aged 10yrs. But since time is different in his world, there is no way of telling just how old Roland really is.

lol, Best answer.

LadyHitchhiker
06-17-2011, 11:55 AM
Well if we are to believe the Beatles are eternal, and their mantra that all you need is love, then ipso facto, all Roland needs is love to be saved.

CamiDeschain
01-28-2012, 07:48 PM
Well, i actually think that Roland is like a thousand years old, in the least. I think the world's process of "moving on" was very very old and the main reason for Roland to seek the Tower in the first place. If the world had started moving on when he was a kid, and if he had been seeking and finding the Tower multiple times, who knows.

I think his salvation would be the breaking of his wheel, either finding death or a comfortable life where he could rest. But i think the biggest salvation for him would be to forget the Tower in the first place....

And I do think he found damnation when he let Jake fall. Not cool, dude. Maybe next time he'll know better. I hope.

As to what people said about him getting another chance with Susan, I completely disagree. At some point he already says something about how he understood it was pure love just because he was young. Romantic love is nothing compared to what he shared with Jake for example. Roland deserves a lot more than a woman.

grobblewobble
01-31-2012, 08:30 AM
What will Roland see through the final door at the top of the Tower once his loop is completed?

He will open the door, remember that he opened it thousands of time before, only this time he has not just the horn with him but also the candle, the miniature statue, the fake plastic flower, the discount coupon, the rubber duck, the voodoo mask and the strawberry taste condom. These items are proof to Gan that Roland finally learned his lessons. Gan will be proud of him. To reward him for being a good boy, Roland finally gets to eat a Quarter Pounder menu with extra fries, just as he always wanted. Kingsize.

At least that's my theory.

Jean
01-31-2012, 08:39 AM
rofl

grobble, re-post it here (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?2223-Roland-at-the-McDonald-s-worst-ending-ever-main-spoilers), it's hilarious

grobblewobble
01-31-2012, 09:01 AM
Thanks Jean. :P

I hadn't seen that thread, looks fitting. Don't really want to double-post, but I guess I could move it.

cozener
02-03-2012, 01:44 PM
What will Roland see through the final door at the top of the Tower once his loop is completed?

He will open the door, remember that he opened it thousands of time before, only this time he has not just the horn with him but also the candle, the miniature statue, the fake plastic flower, the discount coupon, the rubber duck, the voodoo mask and the strawberry taste condom. These items are proof to Gan that Roland finally learned his lessons. Gan will be proud of him. To reward him for being a good boy, Roland finally gets to eat a Quarter Pounder menu with extra fries, just as he always wanted. Kingsize.

At least that's my theory. And a pepsi...dude loves pepsi.

blavigne
02-03-2012, 07:45 PM
What will Roland see through the final door at the top of the Tower once his loop is completed?

He will open the door, remember that he opened it thousands of time before, only this time he has not just the horn with him but also the candle, the miniature statue, the fake plastic flower, the discount coupon, the rubber duck, the voodoo mask and the strawberry taste condom. These items are proof to Gan that Roland finally learned his lessons. Gan will be proud of him. To reward him for being a good boy, Roland finally gets to eat a Quarter Pounder menu with extra fries, just as he always wanted. Kingsize.

At least that's my theory. And a pepsi...dude loves pepsi.

Yes!! LOL

tumbleweed
02-04-2012, 07:10 AM
Roland's salvation would be me.

Rolandofmosheim
06-14-2012, 03:56 AM
Ok I know I am new here, but when the loop restarted he had the horn of Eld that Cuthbert had dropped at Jerhico Hill, I think he must remain true to being a "Gunslinger" In that Sushannah shouldn't had taken Rolands other gun with her when she went back to New York, The guns were the link to the Line of Eld.. In my honest opinion either should have been given to jake his true son and then upon jakes death Roland taken it back. Just my thoughts, but what will he find there I think honestly He'll wake up on his horse in Mejis, and realize that all the loops took place inside the grapefruit, but will retain the knowledge the countless loops have given him and maybe this time shoot Rhea, save susan, return to Gilead and stop Farson. Just my two cents

Jean
02-20-2013, 12:24 PM
So long as Roland opens that door, he will only ever find the desert.Amen

Merlin1958
02-20-2013, 12:27 PM
So long as Roland opens that door, he will only ever find the desert.Amen

And if he never does open that door?

Bev Vincent
02-20-2013, 12:33 PM
In my opinion, he lives out the rest of his natural days.

Merlin1958
02-20-2013, 12:40 PM
In my opinion, he lives out the rest of his natural days.

So you don't see Roland as some sort of Meta-Physical representative of all Mankind across all the worlds? To me, if that is not the case then why on Earth would Gan pick on him like that? LOL He's just living his own personal "Hell"? And if it was his Hell wouldn't it make sense for him to remember, but not be able to do a thing about it? Then again, Roland made mistakes, no doubt, but does the punishment (if that is what it is) fit the crime? And why allow him to make different choices?

IDK, I just think there is something a little more to it all. Maybe he has to open that door every time through.

Bev Vincent
02-20-2013, 01:07 PM
I see him as the man who can do the job, and his reward for completing his Gan-given task is a series of "second" chances to make more of his life.

pathoftheturtle
02-20-2013, 04:49 PM
It might be that all Mankind across all the worlds are also trapped, going round and round, year after year.

Merlin1958
02-20-2013, 05:00 PM
I see him as the man who can do the job, and his reward for completing his Gan-given task is a series of "second" chances to make more of his life.

Could be, but to me that seems overly simple. I like to think that Roland's choices are tied to Mankind's evolution. Not to suggest that he has no free will, but more like the two are symbiotic. As Mankind evolves, Roland makes better choices and gets closer to the Tower. Conversely, Mankind gets closer to enlightenment.

Just a theory I suppose, but at least there is the promise of a light at the end of the tunnel.

pathoftheturtle
02-20-2013, 05:11 PM
As Mankind evolves, Roland makes better choices and gets closer to the Tower. Conversely, Mankind gets closer to enlightenment.Then finally Roland reaches the top, and an alternate version of Stephen King publishes that story to a world who consider what he finds there to be no big deal, really.

Merlin1958
02-20-2013, 05:13 PM
As Mankind evolves, Roland makes better choices and gets closer to the Tower. Conversely, Mankind gets closer to enlightenment.Then finally Roland reaches the top, and an alternate version of Stephen King publishes that story to a world who consider what he finds there to be no big deal, really.

LOL It's just my own pet theory. Never heard anyone else state anything close to it, but it works for me!! LOL

Jean
02-21-2013, 02:05 AM
So long as Roland opens that door, he will only ever find the desert.Amen

And if he never does open that door?I believe it can only happen if he chooses to die in Tull.

Merlin1958
06-03-2013, 08:02 PM
So long as Roland opens that door, he will only ever find the desert.Amen

And if he never does open that door?I believe it can only happen if he chooses to die in Tull.

OK. And just why is that? Because he killed those attacking him?

Jean
06-05-2013, 11:54 PM
yes

(I see the sarcasm in your question, and I am aware that my answer might require elaboration)

Merlin1958
06-06-2013, 09:24 AM
yes

(I see the sarcasm in your question, and I am aware that my answer might require elaboration)



I wasn't being sarcastic, I was just asking is all.

pathoftheturtle
06-07-2013, 04:02 PM
It's pretty deep.
When a false religious leader turns the people against you, letting them go ahead and martyr you certainly is the Christian thing to do.
Plus, look at The Stand.
On the other hand, Roland doesn't even go back in time far enough to actually revisit Tull. It would be much easier to tell if his salvation is what the DT cycle is really about if it had turned out that he was never in fact needed to protect reality, instead of it turning out that he was.

Merlin1958
06-07-2013, 06:49 PM
It's pretty deep.
When a false religious leader turns the people against you, letting them go ahead and martyr you certainly is the Christian thing to do.
Plus, look at The Stand.
On the other hand, Roland doesn't even go back in time far enough to actually revisit Tull. It would be much easier to tell if his salvation is what the DT cycle is really about if it had turned out that he was never in fact needed to protect reality, instead of it turning out that he was.

Bear with me here, but maybe I am not remembering correctly. Tull occurs after "The Man in Black fled and......." right? Maybe I need to be "schooled" again?

pathoftheturtle
06-07-2013, 07:46 PM
No. After that, Roland meets Brown, and then he tells Brown the story of what he did before that -- the story of Tull.

Merlin1958
06-07-2013, 07:51 PM
No. After that, Roland meets Brown, and then he tells Brown the story of what he did before that -- the story of Tull.

Well then, in my mind, anything that occur's AFTER "The Man in Black......" are the only events in "play" as far as the cycle goes!!!!! JMHO


Obviously, because he is not afforded and opportunity to choose another path, yes? And then, by definition (or whatever) cannot be considered in his "salvation" as it apply's to the TDT cycle, yes?

pathoftheturtle
06-07-2013, 08:39 PM
That's not as easy to answer. The relationship of free will to salvation is a subject of debate, as is the relationship of time travel to free will. "The Dark Tower cycle" can also simply refer to the series of books. I'm not sure about the rules exactly. Normally, salvation does not require time travel, at least not in a literal sense.

Jean
06-07-2013, 11:39 PM
It's pretty deep.
When a false religious leader turns the people against you, letting them go ahead and martyr you certainly is the Christian thing to do.
Plus, look at The Stand.
precisely


On the other hand, Roland doesn't even go back in time far enough to actually revisit Tull. maybe next time?

pathoftheturtle
06-08-2013, 07:48 AM
Well, that implies there's something else which he needs to do differently this time in order to qualify for the opportunity to do that differently. But what's the point in that if what he does differently this time is something that he'll never get to again because he has to die first?

Isn't it just as likely that he should change something even further back in his past so that he can avoid Tull altogether?

And if Roland does die and go to heaven somewhere on the road, what happens to the rest of the multiverse? Would someone else have to take his place? Or does the fate of Mid-World not really matter?

Merlin1958
06-08-2013, 11:01 AM
That's not as easy to answer. The relationship of free will to salvation is a subject of debate, as is the relationship of time travel to free will. "The Dark Tower cycle" can also simply refer to the series of books. I'm not sure about the rules exactly. Normally, salvation does not require time travel, at least not in a literal sense.

Not really in a position this moment to reply in detail. Will revisit, but I think I know where you're going with the TT/FW analysis. I prefer to apply "logic" (my German sensibilities) to the problem and simply say that the "cycle will always begin in the "Desert in The Gunslinger". Therefore, only the events that occur thereafter come into play. Especially if you apply any creedence to my "Pet Theory" as stated earlier in this thread. For some reason, the more we explore this topic, the better I feel about my little theory. of course, that is just mho and open to others interpetations and postulates.

Oh, fuck it. Here I go!!! Physics teaches us that there is "order" and design to the universe. Therefore, there has to be not only a purpose to Roland's "loops" (Yes, as postulated in my "Pet Theory) as well as the "Exisitential" (man, my spelling sucks today!!) So, No Jean. "not maybe next time" b/c he will always revert to the "Desert" and have to relive the events from then on possibly with the influence of Mankind's evolution.

To me, somehow Roland's "number came up" and he was chosen by Gan to perform a higher service to the multi-verse (as stated in "Insomnia"). Now, I suppose "Path" will say that the inclusion of a diety belies order, design and rules, but I would say that some, if not all would still have to apply in even a diety's case. Maybe that's just my "Hun Heritage" talking, but its my story and I'm sticking to it!!!!

This is gonna be a GOOD ONE!!!! LOL LOL LOL I can almost already hear your replies!!!! LOL LOL LOL

RandyinAK
06-08-2013, 09:03 PM
I'm going to re-read the last half of DT7 again, like a said in an earlier post, but until then, I think that door at the top of the tower will be rolands final door. And whatever incident he finally finds that he can't shoot his way out of or ka doesn't go his way, when it's time for the lights to go out he will see that door and turn the knob that opens into the path that goes to the clearing...... It will be clear to him at that point his time has come and he may see those like Eddie, Jake, Oy and many others waiting for him in the clearing.

On another note, Susannah should not have taken Rolands other gun with her. Yes that should have either followed jake or remained in his gunna while the other was on his hip.

pathoftheturtle
06-11-2013, 04:10 PM
Merlin, I'm not really sure what physics principle you think it is that draws Roland always to "The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed." I think it's just Stephen King's writing.

But is this a different thread?

Jean?

Merlin1958
06-11-2013, 04:14 PM
Merlin, I'm not really sure what physics principle you think it is that draws Roland always to "The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed." I think it's just Stephen King's writing.

But is this a different thread?

Jean?

It's the same thread and still on topic. I guess what I was trying to say is that even "Fictional" physics would prevail. I realize that may sound like an oxymoron, but if you're willing to accept "King's World, then IMO the "physics" would be adjusted accordingly. Make any sense?

Bottom line I suppose is there are always applicable "rules"

pathoftheturtle
06-11-2013, 04:30 PM
I'm just trying to remember if there was a thread already about why he returns to that specific moment.

But I would also like to know "Who wrote the rule that says that there must always be rules, and was there already a rule that said that that rule had to be written?" if that, too, is still on-topic.

Merlin1958
06-11-2013, 04:34 PM
I'm just trying to remember if there was a thread already about why he returns to that specific moment.

But I would also like to know "Who wrote the rule that says that there must always be rules, and was there already a rule that said that that rule had to be written?" if that, too, is still on-topic.

Path, I was not trying to be a smart ass or anything. I just realized that I did not properly explain my opinion (I still may not have!! LOL). Like I said, that's just "my take" on the subject.

Arguing with you is a fun & interesting challenge, but offensively arguing with you is a whole other matter. I very much respect your opinion. Beside's, I'm now the "kinder, gentler, Merlin"!!! LOL LOL LOL


Of course, you may have just been kidding with me, in which case, kindly disregard the above!! LOL

pathoftheturtle
06-11-2013, 05:04 PM
I don't know what you're talking about. Was not offended. Was not trying to kid. Pretty straightforward post, really.

Merlin1958
06-11-2013, 05:07 PM
I don't know what you're talking about. Was not offended. Was not trying to kid. Pretty straightforward post, really.

OK, I mis-read. My bad.

In that case, I guess every individual reader decides? Whatever works for them?

Jean
06-11-2013, 11:30 PM
Jean?will be back next Tuesday

pathoftheturtle
06-15-2013, 06:27 PM
Some text possibly relevant to the present turn of this discussion --


"...'"The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed." The rest might have been puff and blow, but man, that was clean.' ...
'What I liked,' King said, 'was how the story seemed to be going backward. From a purely technical standpoint, it was very interesting. I start with you in the desert, then slip back a notch to you meeting Brown and Zoltan. Zoltan was named after a folk-singer and guitarist I knew at the University of Maine, by the way. Anyway, from the dweller's hut, the story slips back another notch to you coming into the town of Tull ... named after a rock group --'
'Jethro Tull,' Eddie said, 'Goddam of course! ...'
...
'Anyway, from Roland coming into Tull, the story slips back another notch to tell how Nort, the weed-eater, died and was resurrected by Walter. You see what buzzed me about it, don't you? The early part of it was all told in reverse gear. It was bass-ackwards.'
Roland had no interest in the technical aspects that seemed to so fascinate King: this was his life they were talking about, after all, his life, and to him it had all been moving forward. At least until he'd reached the Western Sea, and the doors through which he'd drawn his traveling companions."


-- Song of Susannah

NickP
07-02-2013, 04:28 PM
I'd like to think that when (if?) Roland reaches the Clearing, he'll find all his past ka-mates and family waiting for him.

pathoftheturtle
07-03-2013, 10:47 AM
Well, for what it's worth, I'd like to think that we all will.

Jean
07-03-2013, 12:59 PM
We will.

SDZald
09-18-2014, 09:30 AM
For me he would never see what is at the top of the Tower because his quest was NEVER to enter it but to save it. As he chases the Man in Black he comes to understand somehow, with the horn playing some part in that understanding, that he has already saved the Tower. He doesn't drop Jake, joins up with Eddie and Suzz, they make their way to the Calle where they all settle and live happily ever after. Yea I know corny but that is the beauty of the ending, I can make it what ever I want :)

Sovereign
11-05-2015, 12:26 PM
Well, that implies there's something else which he needs to do differently this time in order to qualify for the opportunity to do that differently. But what's the point in that if what he does differently this time is something that he'll never get to again because he has to die first?

Isn't it just as likely that he should change something even further back in his past so that he can avoid Tull altogether?

And if Roland does die and go to heaven somewhere on the road, what happens to the rest of the multiverse? Would someone else have to take his place? Or does the fate of Mid-World not really matter?

As to the fate of Mid-World, I don't think it matters. All the events in the universe, the Dark Tower's saving, etc are all reversed by Gan simply to teach Roland something. It seems that, to Gan, whatever Roland must learn is more important than any world. I have a tendency to agree with the above post, in that I don't think Roland was meant to breach the tower, but to save it. There are many times when Roland's life as a gunslinger is referred to one of death, and I don't think he can ever be expected to reach salvation until he embraces life over death. That's why I believe the rose is such a prominent figure, as a flower in bloom represents new life and can be seen as an anti-symbol of death. In my opinion, this change requires him to make multiple small and large decisions (such as picking of the horn and not letting Jake fall) that may go against all of his teaching as a gunslinger, but allow him to embrace his humanity.

Merlin1958
11-05-2015, 08:05 PM
Well, that implies there's something else which he needs to do differently this time in order to qualify for the opportunity to do that differently. But what's the point in that if what he does differently this time is something that he'll never get to again because he has to die first?

Isn't it just as likely that he should change something even further back in his past so that he can avoid Tull altogether?

And if Roland does die and go to heaven somewhere on the road, what happens to the rest of the multiverse? Would someone else have to take his place? Or does the fate of Mid-World not really matter?

As to the fate of Mid-World, I don't think it matters. All the events in the universe, the Dark Tower's saving, etc are all reversed by Gan simply to teach Roland something. It seems that, to Gan, whatever Roland must learn is more important than any world. I have a tendency to agree with the above post, in that I don't think Roland was meant to breach the tower, but to save it. There are many times when Roland's life as a gunslinger is referred to one of death, and I don't think he can ever be expected to reach salvation until he embraces life over death. That's why I believe the rose is such a prominent figure, as a flower in bloom represents new life and can be seen as an anti-symbol of death. In my opinion, this change requires him to make multiple small and large decisions (such as picking of the horn and not letting Jake fall) that may go against all of his teaching as a gunslinger, but allow him to embrace his humanity.

IMO Roland is humanities representative in the quest for the tower. His growth and evolution are representative of humanities, growth and evolution. So, as the "world" goes, so goes, Roland and his quest, so to speak. He is a symbol/characterization for humanity, IMHO

Merlin1958
11-05-2015, 08:06 PM
Well, that implies there's something else which he needs to do differently this time in order to qualify for the opportunity to do that differently. But what's the point in that if what he does differently this time is something that he'll never get to again because he has to die first?

Isn't it just as likely that he should change something even further back in his past so that he can avoid Tull altogether?

And if Roland does die and go to heaven somewhere on the road, what happens to the rest of the multiverse? Would someone else have to take his place? Or does the fate of Mid-World not really matter?

As to the fate of Mid-World, I don't think it matters. All the events in the universe, the Dark Tower's saving, etc are all reversed by Gan simply to teach Roland something. It seems that, to Gan, whatever Roland must learn is more important than any world. I have a tendency to agree with the above post, in that I don't think Roland was meant to breach the tower, but to save it. There are many times when Roland's life as a gunslinger is referred to one of death, and I don't think he can ever be expected to reach salvation until he embraces life over death. That's why I believe the rose is such a prominent figure, as a flower in bloom represents new life and can be seen as an anti-symbol of death. In my opinion, this change requires him to make multiple small and large decisions (such as picking of the horn and not letting Jake fall) that may go against all of his teaching as a gunslinger, but allow him to embrace his humanity.

IMO Roland is humanities representative in the quest for the tower. His growth and evolution are representative of humanities, growth and evolution. So, as the "world" goes, so goes, Roland and his quest, so to speak. He is a symbol/characterization for humanity, IMHO