PDA

View Full Version : The Official End Thread



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6

Darkthoughts
05-24-2007, 04:18 AM
The end was quite controversial - some were disappointed, some liked it, some saw no other possible way for it to end...would there have been a more satisfactory way to end it in your opinion? Or was it fine by you?

ManOfWesternesse
05-24-2007, 04:43 AM
It was absolutely fine by me.

Matt
05-24-2007, 04:49 AM
Over the years, my opinion on the end has grown a little softer. I believe it was not so much of a problem with what happened, but how we got there imo.

I think most of the shock over the end was actually just plain old sorrow, sorrow that the story was over for real after all these years.

I happened to be one of only a few people that I have talked to that liked what happened with Suze and the "alternate" Eddie and Jake. The fact that King was there didn't sit well with me at first, especially in the end because of what happened with Jake, but now I believe he had to be there. For him, not for us.

My only real complaint with the book 7 itself is all the "travel time". It seemed like we spent a lot of time doing things like making camp on the road. :lol:

Jean
05-24-2007, 04:58 AM
Darkthoughts, I've added a poll to make it more graphic. If you would like to alter the wording of the poll, please PM me.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Palaver/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Palaver/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Palaver/0134-bear.gif

(so far there's only one vote, it says "completely satisfied". It is mine.)

Darkthoughts
05-24-2007, 04:58 AM
I hoped that Roland would find a nice comfy bed at the top of the tower and shuffle off the mortal coil peacefully in his sleep - but I'm aware of how that would've sucked as an ending :D

I thought SK's ending was good, in keeping with ka being a wheel. But yes, I think you are in a minority over liking Eddie, Suze,Oy and Jake's ending Matt :lol:...it was waaay too cheesy for my liking.

Edit: Cheers Jean! Thats groovy as it is :huglove:

Jean
05-24-2007, 05:01 AM
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Palaver/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Palaver/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Palaver/0134-bear.gif

Odetta
05-24-2007, 06:55 AM
Loved the ending! It ended exactly how I felt it should.

fernandito
05-24-2007, 08:16 AM
When I first read the ending I was furious, I needed closure damnit! But as time went on and as I thought deeper into it, I came to the conclusion that it was the right ending for the series.

The only quarrel that I still have pending with the ending is that it left a couple of questions unanswered.

Chassit
05-24-2007, 09:03 AM
Ka is a wheel. The ending proves that beyond a doubt.

Baradin
05-24-2007, 09:14 AM
My three real HUGE problems with the final book and the ending:

1. Randall Flagg the biggest baddest badass of all King's universe is killed by a baby demon spider? Seriously WTF?!?!?!?

2. The Crimson King Does NOT say "EEeEEEeEEEEeeeeEEEEE" like a freaked out french Waiter. Does NOT!

3. The whole loop continuity. What a copout and contrived ending. I realize King put a huge rush on to finish the series because he was made brutally aware of his own mortality. I get that. I would have preferred he spent his time getting it done right and possibly never finishing the series, then us being given this half cocked drivel.

People say I'm too harsh on King for this, but really he built this series up and we all joined in on the greatest journey in recent literary history only to find out that the destination was no more than some malevolent kid's merry-go-round. I dunno, I guess I felt betrayed.

She-Oy
05-24-2007, 09:56 AM
I didn't NOT like the ending. It just didn't blow me out of the water. And the whole last couple of chapters just seemed like a bad acid trip for children or something (the Eeeeee's and the sneeches just didn't make for the most climatic battle, imo)...

BUT...
The fact that the loop continues made the story NOT OVER. It left that small, inkling of hope for us dedicated readers that there COULD at some point be another story about our favorite characters...I mean now that Roland has the horn, what different paths would he take?

When you think about it that way it makes King more of genius than ever...not a copped-out, burnt out author...

AND...
Maybe Stevey COULDN'T let go of his epic characters. Maybe it was too hard for him too. He probably needed to leave that inkling of hope for himself too.

Baradin
05-24-2007, 10:07 AM
Gah. Damn you She-oy and your logical arguements too.

:lol:

She-Oy
05-24-2007, 10:11 AM
LOL! Yeah I tend to get myself in trouble with that logical thinking!

BTW, It's GREAT to see you again. I've missed you tons!

Hannah
05-24-2007, 10:13 AM
I voted not satisfied. I wanted more, dammit! I know that it's all about the journey and blah blah blah (and I did enjoy the journey) ... but no matter how many times King uses that as a cop out I still feel like the ending has its own importance as well.

And really, you can't call it an ending, anyways. There was no ending.

fernandito
05-24-2007, 10:16 AM
I voted not satisfied. I wanted more, dammit! I know that it's all about the journey and blah blah blah (and I did enjoy the journey) ... but no matter how many times King uses that as a cop out I still feel like the ending has its own importance as well.

And really, you can't call it an ending, anyways. There was no ending.

[whoopi goldberg] you go girl! [/whoopi goldberg]

Jean
05-24-2007, 10:44 AM
I know that it's all about the journey and blah blah blah (and I did enjoy the journey) ...
And blah blah blah. Exactly. Whoever invented this slogan about the journey being more important than the destination - King or no King - I am not sure it makes any sense. Besides, the destination was reached in book 7. Roland went to the Tower - Roland came to the Tower.

Wuducynn
05-24-2007, 11:12 AM
I was beyond satisfied with the ending, I LOVED, LOVED, LOVED, LOVED it!!

Matt
05-24-2007, 11:30 AM
The only end I have ever been beyond satisfied with is Dora's :lol:

Wuducynn
05-24-2007, 11:31 AM
??

Matt
05-24-2007, 11:35 AM
My wife, its a sex joke.

I love her ass. :lol:

Wuducynn
05-24-2007, 11:36 AM
Ah! :thumbsup:

Chassit
05-24-2007, 11:40 AM
I was beyond satisfied with the ending, I LOVED, LOVED, LOVED, LOVED it!!

Indeed. Was there really any other choice?

Wuducynn
05-24-2007, 12:31 PM
I was beyond satisfied with the ending, I LOVED, LOVED, LOVED, LOVED it!!

Indeed. Was there really any other choice?

Of course there is, it's all opinion.

Chassit
05-24-2007, 12:35 PM
Hehehe, fair enough. ;)

She-Oy
05-24-2007, 12:41 PM
My wife, its a sex joke.

I love her ass. :lol:

You will always be the OG "Assman":rofl:

Bethany
05-24-2007, 12:42 PM
I'm torn about the ending. My heart literally ached for Roland when I realized he had to do everything over again. But, the fact that he had already done so X number of times explains so much about his personality. On the other hand, I felt like everything was a big cheat. Baradin summed it up pretty well for me. The ending was rushed and contrived in many places.

Wuducynn
05-24-2007, 12:46 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/72/Kramer's_ASSMAN_plates.jpg/200px-Kramer's_ASSMAN_plates.jpg

Daghain
05-24-2007, 01:21 PM
I loved the ending. It makes perfect sense if you believe Ka is a wheel. :D

Darkthoughts
05-24-2007, 01:24 PM
Baradin - I agree entirely about Flagg and the Crimson King! Flagg moreso because as fans we've been so involved with him in so many stories, it was just too sudden and too simplistic and not righteous enough...thus proving I wouldn't have been satisfied with anything :lol:

Ruki
05-24-2007, 01:30 PM
i think the ending was perfect, i loved it. i can't imagine how there could be a more satisfying conclusion to the series.

Baradin
05-24-2007, 01:57 PM
Baradin - I agree entirely about Flagg and the Crimson King! Flagg moreso because as fans we've been so involved with him in so many stories, it was just too sudden and too simplistic and not righteous enough...thus proving I wouldn't have been satisfied with anything :lol:

You know you may be onto something there. (with Flagg at least). I have a vision of how *I* would have ended the DT series, but with Flagg, I don't think any ending really befitted a creature of his "Darth Vader" status, not even a conversion to Roland's side would have been appropriate IMO.

Darkthoughts
05-24-2007, 01:59 PM
You took the words out of my mouth, so i'll just nod enthusiastically in agreement :D ...Oops, spilled my beer...

Matt
05-24-2007, 02:03 PM
I think if Roland would have drawn on him like Doc Holiday did Huckleberry at the end of Tombstone--I would have been satisfied. :lol:

Just blew his fucking head off.

Baradin
05-24-2007, 02:07 PM
LOL, The ole Marty McFly Vs Bufford Tannen eh? Yeah I coulda grooved to that. At the very least it would have been the Biggest Baddest Badass Good guy taking down the Biggest Baddest Badass Badguy.

fernandito
05-24-2007, 02:28 PM
I'm with everyone on the Roland-should-of-blasted-Flagg compaign. I felt it would of been divine justice for Roland to be the one to dispatch him after all the trouble he caused him.

VolsToTheWall
05-24-2007, 04:38 PM
I was satisfied with the ending. Like others have said, I have grown to appreciate it more as time has passed. I think the biggest problem I had when I first read the ending was simply that it had ended. All those years of waiting for the next book were finally coming to an end, 'twas sad. I also had an issue with Flagg's demise, I was looking forward to something much more than that, but I quickly got over it. I can appreciate the irony in it. I also thought that Eddie, Susie, and Jake's ending was served up with a side dish of cheese, but I was expecting something like that for them. I guess I was torn on that, I loved the characters, and wanted them to have a happy conclusion to their journey, but at the same time, I like it when there's not always a happy ending, even for characters I am rooting for. Overall, I'll just say that I was happy with the ending, but also say there were a few minor points that I had an issue with, and that those have faded as time has gone on. I have moved on. Roland would understand.

MonteGss
05-24-2007, 04:40 PM
I am glad to see that Completely Satisfied is currently in the lead.
Great series, great ending. I have no complaints.
:)

pol
05-24-2007, 07:45 PM
I would have to agree with a lot of you guys....I was Ok with the ending but parts of how we got there really let me down...

The whole bit with Randall Flagg. I had been reading about this character for about 16 or 17 years, under many guises, and he was one of, if not my favorite, character...can you say Richard Fannin. I always took him as "the ageless stranger", one of the guardians of the Tower that Roland would have to face if he made it to the top....and this timeless character gets his ticket from a spider boy just introduced a few hundred pages earlier!! The same character that Roland and Oy dispose of with such ease later down the line. When I read this, and I still remember where I was sitting, I was floored and unable to read the book for the rest of the day. To me this felt rushed, it felt as if King just came up with something, and took us away from where he had been leading us for many years.

I have read a thread before that suggested that the ways we had seen Flagg in the past, meaning all the other books outside DT I-VII, was under the spell of his glamour, as he appeared in "fictional" books...meaning he made himself appear to be a badass when he really wasn't. However when we see him in DT VII we see him as he really is, which is just a pretty ordinary guy who used magic to make himself appear more intense than he actually was...kind of how the Wizard of Oz hides behind the curtain and appears more than he actually is.

I thought this explanation was kind of cool, however it still did not take the edge off of my let down.

Telynn
05-24-2007, 08:36 PM
When people speak of "The ending" they usually mean the loop. I didn't have a problem with that. But other things I did. Suzannah's ending. Bleh. Of course I wasn't really fond of her so for her to be the only one to get a "happily ever after" ending didn't sit well. When she tossed the gun in the garbage I just about closed the book for good. :angry:

The book could have been either shorter or better. Soooo much wasted time in 7. I didn't need the deer skinning lessons.

The demise of the bad guys was a disappointment. In fact The Crimson King was a disappointment all around. Thank goodness he only started getting a mention in the later books. If I had been built up to that for 7 books, I really would have not been happy. And I hadn't read The Stand yet or Flagg's death would have ticked me off more.

Overall the last two books had such a different feel about them. Something I can't quite place. Stuff was being brought into the story that was never mentioned before, or wasn't a big part. I dunno what it is exactly that bothers me about them. *shrug*
Anyways, I'm going to spoilerize my whole post, even though I think anyone coming into a thread with this title has no reason to cry about the ending of the book being spoiled.

Edit: I just noticed how funny my post looks with nothing but a floating frowning face.

OchrisO
05-24-2007, 09:50 PM
I didn't hate it,and I am ok with it, but I didn't really like it either. I completely understand it, but I didn't really like it.


A white-haired man who already died
and a tragic youth with plates on his side.
The elder told the boy to seek,
then danced his death with forty freaks.
What he says is the bool
where he says it is also a clue

Daghain
05-24-2007, 10:14 PM
Pol, I totally get the 16 or 17 year investment. I'm at 20+. :D

Of course, I totally understand King's obsession with his own mortality and the need to finish Roland's story. So maybe I'm a BIT more lenient in that regard. Hey, if I had gotten hit by a van and lived, I would have totally pulled a Jane Austen ending out of my ass in two seconds flat. It would not have taken me three books. So I give Sai King kudos for that, at least.

sarajean
05-27-2007, 11:03 AM
i thought it was perfect.

but, then...i'm of the opinion that the browning poem is the true end of the story, and in that, he blows the horn and finally gets peace.

who'm i, though?

Darkthoughts
05-28-2007, 12:06 AM
^Thats a good point, I like that.

:D I'm like your personal theory groupie!

sarajean
05-28-2007, 07:29 AM
^Thats a good point, I like that.

:D I'm like your personal theory groupie!

:blush:

Baradin
05-28-2007, 05:39 PM
Hahahah and I am *still* the only completely dis-satisfied!!

Cutter
08-13-2007, 10:49 AM
4 Satisfied, but with small reservations.

Like King says at the end, do we really need to see what happens in the Tower? I thought no. The fact he got there was good enough for me, and it was the journey, not the climax that interested me. But then again I liked the ending of The Wastelands, too. *shrug*

But if we were going to see the inside, it made as much sense as any. What else would there have been, a royal court and welcome, Gan, a cockpit of some sort that allows him to see all the dimensions, or his own death? So I had no problem with the outcome because it was probably better than the alternatives.

Someone else mentioned, the killing of Mordred belittled Flagg’s death, and I agree. I had no problem with a child of Roland and The Crimson King killing Flagg, because at the point we were led to believe this thing was basically a deity of some kind, which would have meant he was way more powerful than Flagg. The problem was how easily pathetic Mordred was disposed of. This, in reflection, made it seem sad that Flagg couldn’t win against Mordred. I think the Mordred fight should have been tougher, and then it would have been a more plausible end for Flagg.

Susannah? Yea I guess it was pretty cheesy. I never really though about it, though. I guess the reason would be because I didn’t have a problem with her ending.

And finally I liked the battle with the Crimson King; I thought it had some good action. Also we gotta remember The Crimson King was a certified nutto at this point, so we never got to see The Crimson King in his prime. I guess the only disappointment is that he wasn’t fully killed off.

Jean
08-13-2007, 10:32 PM
I think the Mordred fight should have been tougher, and then it would have been a more plausible end for Flagg.
But if we look at Flagg history and his character as described in all related books, we'll see that he never fights. He is just not a fighter. He is a plotter and schemer, but face to face with an enemy he either disappears in a cloud of smoke or else, if he doesn't have the time to, he is bound to lose.

Daghain
08-13-2007, 10:38 PM
I'll agree with Jean on this one. But yeah, as an (unpublished) writer, I'll say, yeah, at some point, you're like "would someone take this sucker out, already?"

I totally understand why King thinks his characters are moving about on their own. They DO.

MonteGss
08-14-2007, 06:58 AM
I think the Mordred fight should have been tougher, and then it would have been a more plausible end for Flagg.
But if we look at Flagg history and his character as described in all related books, we'll see that he never fights. He is just not a fighter. He is a plotter and schemer, but face to face with an enemy he either disappears in a cloud of smoke or else, if he doesn't have the time to, he is bound to lose.

Agree completely Jean. Flagg/Walter was a great character but I never, ever saw him as some uber-baddie that would be able to fight it out with Roland.

ZoNeSeeK
08-20-2007, 08:32 PM
I thought the ending was great, he prepares you for something unexpected (if that makes sense) and then waps you with it.

The RF death did frustrate me at the time, the villain of the Stand, Eyes of the Dragon, the entire DT series etc is so easily disposed of.

But if you remember the hints at RF's position in the scheme of things - towards the end it was becoming tennuous at best. He was playing an incredibly dangerous game, with Roland and the CK, trying to manipulate the outcome. So what happens to RF is his sweet justice - he doesn't die in some spectacular showdown with Roland or his ka-tet and there's no more slinking off into the shadows at the end of this story. RF has meddled and interfered and brought down entire nations with his insidious scheming so the poetic justice of being defeated (humbled) by his own arrogance was shocking in its brevity at first but then is completely fitting.

As for the CK, I dont know if he was ever fully realised by King to begin with, or maybe it was such that by the time they reached the tower, the CK and his heirarchy had eventually suffered as the world moved on.

Daghain
08-20-2007, 08:38 PM
ITA with the whole Randall Flagg thing - he got his in a most humbling way.

Very fitting.

ZoNeSeeK
08-20-2007, 08:49 PM
ITA? :)

Daghain
08-20-2007, 08:55 PM
I totally agree :D

Letti
08-20-2007, 10:57 PM
What did you feel when you read the last line of the book?
What did you feel when this long and amazing journey finished forever?
What did you feel as you were sitting there with the closed book in your hand?

Sadness? Happiness? Joy? Lost? Emptiness?

I am interested in your feelings and emotions.
Let's try to avoid the spoilers. Of course if you would like to write down the reasons - I can imaigne that we will have lots of questions here to each other - that's all right but please mark the spoilers very hard.

Thank you.

Darkthoughts
08-21-2007, 04:28 AM
I felt the way I feel when I finish any book where I've; related to or bonded with the characters, felt a part of the story and had my imagination kidnapped by the creations of someone elses mind...I felt empty and a little numb. And also like I didn't want to read anything else for a while because I wanted to more time to dwell with the ka-tet in my mind.

Wuducynn
08-21-2007, 05:25 AM
Elation, sadness, wonder..some more sadness and wonder. It didn't just blow my mind, it blew my soul.

Jean
08-21-2007, 05:51 AM
What did you feel when you read the last line of the book?
What did you feel when this long and amazing journey finished forever?
What did you feel as you were sitting there with the closed book in your hand?
I wasn't sitting.

I was jumping about. Shouting something inarticulate.

There was a moment when I suddently understood everything about the universe, man and God.

It slipped away, of course, like a dream, leaving just the residue - that which I've been trying to put in words for those years at both sites - but the truth contained in Mr.King's powerful vision is always there.

Emotionally, it was elation - ecstasy, to be precise. Remember, unlike Matt I am very optimistic about the end and the future of all those concerned.

Wuducynn
08-21-2007, 05:54 AM
I was jumping about. Shouting something inarticulate.


This was right before the men in white coats and thorazine in their needles came and helped Jean to a place where he is now making baskets and going over his issues..

Matt
08-21-2007, 06:12 AM
I was physically and emotionally drained for a few days. It was was a milestone kind of like this wedding.

Then end of one chapter and the beginning of another and the funny part is that I have "enhanced" my fan mania more since it ended

Wuducynn
08-21-2007, 06:18 AM
I was physically and emotionally drained for a few days. It was was a milestone

Exactly the same here.

Daghain
08-21-2007, 06:48 AM
It didn't just blow my mind, it blew my soul.


That is exactly how I felt.

fernandito
08-21-2007, 08:44 AM
To be honest, I was furious when I first read the ending...I needed closure damnit! Although I still have a few bones to pick, I ultimately accepted it as the 'right' ending.

Letti
08-21-2007, 08:57 AM
It didn't just blow my mind, it blew my soul.


That is exactly how I felt.

*hugs Ann and Matthew because she feels she needs to hug them somehow* :rose:

fernandito
08-21-2007, 09:04 AM
And what am I, invisible? Don't I at least get a swift kick to the temple?

Letti
08-21-2007, 09:07 AM
And what am I, invisible? Don't I at least get a swift kick to the temple?

I would never ever be able to kick you. Just hug stroke and kiss you. :huglove: I hope you don't mind.

Darkthoughts
08-21-2007, 01:00 PM
Gimme some lovin!!! :lol:

Letti
08-21-2007, 01:02 PM
Darkthoughts.. :wub: *hugskisses*
Anyway I wanted to write that I often feel the same way as you have written down above. When I finish a book I feel empty (and full at the same time somehow) and I can't read another book for awhile.
I need time.
Sometimes lots.

Darkthoughts
08-21-2007, 01:20 PM
Its sad and joyful at the same time isn't it.
:huglove:

Wuducynn
08-22-2007, 09:29 PM
*hugs Ann and Matthew because she feels she needs to hug them somehow* :rose:

*phew!!* Thankfully its not a huggle...but I love hugs! :huglove:

Cutter
08-24-2007, 03:11 PM
I think the Mordred fight should have been tougher, and then it would have been a more plausible end for Flagg.
But if we look at Flagg history and his character as described in all related books, we'll see that he never fights. He is just not a fighter. He is a plotter and schemer, but face to face with an enemy he either disappears in a cloud of smoke or else, if he doesn't have the time to, he is bound to lose.

Agree completely Jean. Flagg/Walter was a great character but I never, ever saw him as some uber-baddie that would be able to fight it out with Roland.

True, I'll agree here. But Flagg is always brought up as a bad ass. In The Stand you were scared of him. So that residue of fear makes you think of him as the ultimate bad guy, and you think he can kick some butt. Even though he always falters or flees at the end of a story (or outcome), you don't think of him in that light. At least I didn't.

Darkthoughts
08-24-2007, 03:16 PM
I agree.

It didn't have to be Roland that faced him down and it was fitting that he was killed by his own side but...meh...y'know? I guess SK was sort of showing that evil doesn't pay and that someone who considered himself so important came to an unimportant and unglorious end...but it seemed rushed to me.

Wuducynn
08-24-2007, 08:16 PM
I don't think King was trying to show "evil" doesn't pay. More that Walter had gotten old, and way too sure of himself.

Darkthoughts
08-25-2007, 05:49 AM
Yeah, thats pretty much what I'm trying to say - that power (of the red) corrupts in a way that is often detrimental to the weilder...I know what I'm talking about anyway :D

ZoNeSeeK
09-13-2007, 12:17 AM
Here's an excerpt from The Road to the Dark Tower regarding Flagg's death:




Readers may be disappointed at the unspectacular demise of this legendary villain who outwitted great minds for centuries without ever truly achieving any of his goals. He failed in Delain, in Las Vegas and in Mid-World. Roland isn't present when this ancient deceiver who bedeviled him all his life finally pays for his prodigious list of sins. Still, perhaps it is fitting that Walter, like Dr. Frankenstein, dies at the hands of a creature he was innstrumental in creating: Roland's ill-begotten offspring. Walter's death also disproves his own prophecy that Roland would have to slay the Ageless Stranger to gain the Tower. Perhaps this is a harbinger that Roland's quest to defeat the endless loop of his existence won't succeed this time.

Valkyrie
09-27-2007, 10:24 AM
Spoilers apply

I felt drained when I finished. I was shocked and overwhelmed at the ending. I was a little pissed off at the ending initially. I didn't think Roland deserved it. I remember feeling a deep sense of satisfaction and gladness that I had found the series. I felt like an honorary member of the ka-tet, if that makes any sense. Roland and the ka-tet are "real" to me, even though I realize its a work of fiction. They will be with me forever. I can't see the number 19 and not think of them. There are always things that jog my memory about them. My husband and I use phrases from the book all the time when we talk to each other.

Mike Beck
09-27-2007, 11:02 AM
I hear ya Valkyrie. I felt a little pissed that Roland got screwed also. The guy's been through so much. But it made sense the more i digested it.

first i felt, happy that i reached the end. then i felt, sad, lonely, hungry, a little tired, then slightly content. now i'm happy and want to do a reread. i haven't picked up the books since i finished. it's time to go back through, i think.

Matt
09-27-2007, 11:21 AM
I have been through my second read and I am accepting it much better now. It really is the only way it could have gone.

I wanted Roland to be the tower somehow but that is really not feasible.

Odetta
09-27-2007, 12:45 PM
I shouted out loud... "YES!" because it ended with the exact line I was hoping for!

Darkthoughts
09-27-2007, 12:55 PM
Its such a classic line isn't it. Reminds me of The Outsiders, that finished the same way and I loved that line too.

Valkyrie
09-27-2007, 01:59 PM
Yes, Matt, I think you are right that that was really THE ending for the book. Sure, part of me wishes he had died at the end, part of me wishes he had joined Suze and the ka-tet. What actually happened makes sense to me now. But it took awhile to get there! I think I felt somewhat like Roland right before his memory started to fade. Funny thing, of all the things I had contemplated, I NEVER thought it would end that way. It never occured to me one time. I was completely and utterly surprised!

Storyslinger
09-28-2007, 07:18 AM
It didn't just blow my mind, it blew my soul.


That is exactly how I felt.

*hugs Ann and Matthew because she feels she needs to hug them somehow* :rose:

Blew me away to

MonteGss
09-28-2007, 03:44 PM
Very, very sad. I was drained. I was sitting up in bed, I put the book down and just laid/sat there for a long time, thinking. Very sad. Poor Roland. :cry:

Matt
09-28-2007, 05:02 PM
I had a bit of that as well, you expressed it really well there Monte.

Just that it was so damn unfair to him, after all the work he had gone to...the sacrifices.

Storyslinger
10-01-2007, 07:44 AM
It was sad, but I felt compelled to re-read the whole series trying to imagine what would happen with Roland having the horn

fernandito
10-27-2007, 03:50 PM
*Disclaimer* Alright, it's been a while since I've thought back on the ending of DT, and I really wish I had both my last book and The Road to the Dark Tower with me to cross reference, but neither are currently in my possession so please bear with me.



Okay, so the Tower/Gan sends Roland back to the Mohaine Desert to resume his quest for the tower and possibly find his way to salvation for the (hopefully) final time. But why was this seemingly cruel punishment given to Roland? Why not any of the others in the long list of Arthur Eld heirs? Was it because he was the last of his kind and must therefore pay for the sins of the rest (leading their world turn to ruin)? Was it because he was the 'worst' (relentless, cold hearted) out of them all? Arthur Eld wasn't exactly a saint himself, hell, the guy even got down with another woman who ultimately gave birth to the evil that would haunt Roland in the quests we followed him in, so he is not completely void of fault either.

What do you guys think? This question is the only one that still haunts me even after all this time, and I say thankya big-big to anyone who shares views in this thread. :)

Jean
10-27-2007, 11:24 PM
But why was this seemingly cruel punishment given to Roland? Why not any of the others in the long list of Arthur Eld heirs? Was it because he was the last of his kind and must therefore pay for the sins of the rest (leading their world turn to ruin)?
I am not sure it wasn't. I can easily imagine all Tower seekers having to repeat their circle, and the Tower being saved numerous times. I am not sure, on the other hand, that all of them were Arthur Eld heirs, or that it had anything to do with the ability to save / obsession to see the Tower.

fernandito
10-28-2007, 06:09 AM
But why was this seemingly cruel punishment given to Roland? Why not any of the others in the long list of Arthur Eld heirs? Was it because he was the last of his kind and must therefore pay for the sins of the rest (leading their world turn to ruin)?
I am not sure it wasn't. I can easily imagine all Tower seekers having to repeat their circle, and the Tower being saved numerous times. I am not sure, on the other hand, that all of them were Arthur Eld heirs, or that it had anything to do with the ability to save / obsession to see the Tower.

Thanks for responding Jean.

Also, the highlighted statement above has opened what Aladdin and Jasmine call a whole new woooooooooorld.

sarah
10-28-2007, 07:35 AM
I never understood what roland ever did that was so bad that he had to live his life in a loop.

But someone on this site, sorry i can't remember...daggers?..darkers?...anyhoo, someone said that they thought Roland had to live his life in the loop to keep the tower going or somesuch. sorry i'm being so vague, but i've had five hours of sleep the last few nights and i'm living in a daze.

sarajean will be able to answer this better, i think.

Darkthoughts
10-28-2007, 08:21 AM
I don't think I did - I have thought about it though. My take being that its part of the whole "Ka is a wheel" thing and that perhaps Roland and the Crimson King represent the eternal struggle between good and evil, and are possibly in an infinite loop to keep a balance. But, I think the fact that Roland had the horn really showed that the loop will be broken at some point.

Good question Feev - not quite sure what I think about that...I'd go with the fact that he's the last of the line for now...but I also have a theory I need to research a little...

Harrald
10-28-2007, 11:07 AM
I never understood what roland ever did that was so bad that he had to live his life in a loop.

<<SNIP>>


My gut feeling to this....


Roland sacrificing an innocent in his quest for the tower. From what I remember all the people that died along the way had done something (I don't have the words) not so good. Jake on the other hand was a true innocent. He had done nothing but be in the wrong place at the wrong time and got pushed in front of a car.

I may be wrong. I'm already two books, 5 work projects and a kid with a busted leg away from the DT books.

Storyslinger
10-29-2007, 05:24 AM
I don't think it was a punishment, I think he just forgot things that needed to get done, like the horn blowing

Jimmy
10-29-2007, 08:49 AM
Maybe his mistake was "Forgetting the face of his father" by giving away one of Steven's guns after he lost his fingers. Maybe that's the punishment AND the reason for the loop.

I don't know what made me think of this, I just did.

Jean
10-29-2007, 08:57 AM
Maybe his mistake was "Forgetting the face of his father" by giving away one of Steven's guns after he lost his fingers. Maybe that's the punishment AND the reason for the loop.

I don't know what made me think of this, I just did.
I think it's the first time that I see this point of view. It is unexpected, new, and certainly something to think about. I am of two minds here, and I have to think of what would be more in the spirit of that caste: expediency (something they certainly worshipped) or symbolism (something their whole culture was very much built on). After that, though, the next question will be, to what extent the Tower, as the principle of the universe, shares the code of gunslingers.

Jimmy
10-29-2007, 09:12 AM
Yes, well it's a completely BS statement on my part, because Roland gave away his gun in this cycle, yet he had the horn at the end.

So I'm going to shaddup now, lol.

Jean
10-29-2007, 09:13 AM
oops... yes, looks like we've both screwed up. Too bad, we were on the verge of some New Revelations.

Jimmy
10-29-2007, 09:18 AM
So close and yet so far.

Of course, maybe that's why he got the horn, because he gave away one of the guns...

Jean
10-29-2007, 09:19 AM
oh! ::plunges back into thinking::

Kevin
10-29-2007, 09:26 AM
Interesting theory Jimmy. It would seem to me that Roland has forgotten the name of his father several times during this loop of the quest. Example: Dropping Jake, giving away his gun, forgetting the horn. Yet we know in the next loop he has the horn. Maybe each loop he fixes one thing he has screwed up. The horn this time, the guns the next, and letting Jake drop the time after that. My question is, would this loop be forever, or is it possible for Roland to fix all his mistakes?

EDIT: At the time that seemed original, but rereading it I find that its the same as what a lot of people have been saying, which unfortunately wasnt what I was going for. I'll rephrase this later.

Wuducynn
10-29-2007, 09:27 AM
So close and yet so far.

Of course, maybe that's why he got the horn, because he gave away one of the guns...

THAT is a VERY interesting question Jimmy my man. :cool:

Jean
10-29-2007, 09:27 AM
My question is, would this loop be forever, or is it possible for Roland to fix all his mistakes?
there's a thread on that subject (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=612)

Jimmy
10-29-2007, 11:49 AM
So close and yet so far.

Of course, maybe that's why he got the horn, because he gave away one of the guns...

THAT is a VERY interesting question Jimmy my man. :cool:

It really could have been anything though. King left so much up in the air that interpretation can run the gamut of why's and how's.

Roland might've gotten the horn because he had tuna fish and Pepsi instead of a cheesesteak and a Mr. Pib.

Maybe it was because of all the women he slept with through the story.

It could've been anything.

Matt
10-29-2007, 11:52 AM
Roland is doomed to repeat because he didn't learn what is important.

That is my opinion anyway, the end of the loop is Roland crying off.

Its the same for all of the loops each of us is in. Ever do the same thing over and over and wish every time you are there that you weren't?

He doesn't remember because we seldom do.

fernandito
10-29-2007, 11:52 AM
I never understood what roland ever did that was so bad that he had to live his life in a loop.

<<SNIP>>


My gut feeling to this....

Roland sacrificing an innocent in his quest for the tower.

I'm really, really liking this theory. He made a conscious act of self - damnation, if that isn't punishment-deserving then I don't know what is.

Jimmy
10-29-2007, 12:05 PM
That makes no sense though. He got the horn at the end of the last loop, meaning that he can end the cycle now. He wouldn't have gotten the horn if it was sacrificing Jake that got him stuck in the first place.

fernandito
10-29-2007, 12:14 PM
Hmmm, good point there. But remember, the horn signifies that things might be different, nothing definite. Maybe he has to have the horn AND not purposely sacrifice Jake in order to reach the man in black. However, with this I'm pretty much implying that he has to go through the loop two more times...so many questions!

Jimmy
10-29-2007, 12:20 PM
Maybe by having the horn, Roland won't be so quick to let Jake fall.

Maybe Jake takes the horn after finding Roland at the way station, and later in order to save the horn, Roland has to save Jake too.

fernandito
10-29-2007, 12:24 PM
That works also. Since having the horn means that he's made at least some progress within himself, can we assume that not sacrificing Jake and thus damning himself will be a result of said progress?

Jimmy
10-29-2007, 12:28 PM
No we can't. Anything is possible in the apocrypha of the series. Anything could've happened in the other loops that we didn't see.

Just my opinion.

fernandito
10-29-2007, 12:35 PM
Well we could, but we shouldn't. :lol:

Alright, let me pose another question that I think falls within the lines of what we've been discussing thus far: What does Gan/The Tower hope to ultimately accomplish by sending Roland through these seemingly infinite number of loops? Is it trying to prepare him for something? Does the tower want it's current Guardian (Roland) to be pure in both mind and soul and hence the loops which serve as a way for him to 'better' himself each time? What do you guys think?

[I eagerly await your replies, Jimmy and Jean :) ]

Jimmy
10-29-2007, 12:41 PM
Have you ever played a video game where you kept beating the game without all the items, so you go back again and again?

It could be like that.

ZoNeSeeK
10-29-2007, 04:50 PM
Well we could, but we shouldn't. :lol:

Alright, let me pose another question that I think falls within the lines of what we've been discussing thus far: What does Gan/The Tower hope to ultimately accomplish by sending Roland through these seemingly infinite number of loops? Is it trying to prepare him for something? Does the tower want it's current Guardian (Roland) to be pure in both mind and soul and hence the loops which serve as a way for him to 'better' himself each time? What do you guys think?

[I eagerly await your replies, Jimmy and Jean :) ]

I think you've answered your own question - Roland is the Guardian of the Tower and has been entirely for his long life, cast your mind back to the massive statue of him in Lud, it was very impressive - enough for an entire civilisation to recognize his importance, once upon a time. Perhaps there is no reason, he could be just doing his job. Every action taken in the DT series is to either thwart Walter/Flagg or the Crimson King or to get closer to the Tower. But since distance from one point to another is meaningless in Roland's world (especially with the application of the doorways), the geographical journey to the Tower is just a cover for Roland to fulfil his position as its Guardian. Ka is a wheel, and the threats to the Tower are cyclical, so Roland must match the cycles.

Its a kind of unusual way for the Tower to protect itself - who can figure out Gan's thinking, though? :)

Or another way to look at it would be to consider the Tower is malfunctioning - its taken alot of damage over the centuries, what if sending him back to the desert was a glitch? A flawed prize given by a flawed objective to a flawed character.

MonteGss
10-29-2007, 10:13 PM
Roland is the Guardian of the Tower and has been entirely for his long life, cast your mind back to the massive statue of him in Lud, it was very impressive - enough for an entire civilisation to recognize his importance, once upon a time. Perhaps there is no reason, he could be just doing his job. Every action taken in the DT series is to either thwart Walter/Flagg or the Crimson King or to get closer to the Tower. But since distance from one point to another is meaningless in Roland's world (especially with the application of the doorways), the geographical journey to the Tower is just a cover for Roland to fulfil his position as its Guardian. Ka is a wheel, and the threats to the Tower are cyclical, so Roland must match the cycles.

Its a kind of unusual way for the Tower to protect itself - who can figure out Gan's thinking, though? :)

Or another way to look at it would be to consider the Tower is malfunctioning - its taken alot of damage over the centuries, what if sending him back to the desert was a glitch? A flawed prize given by a flawed objective to a flawed character.

You seriously rule Zone. :thumbsup:

Storyslinger
10-30-2007, 07:43 AM
Well said Zone

ZoNeSeeK
10-30-2007, 04:41 PM
Roland is the Guardian of the Tower and has been entirely for his long life, cast your mind back to the massive statue of him in Lud, it was very impressive - enough for an entire civilisation to recognize his importance, once upon a time. Perhaps there is no reason, he could be just doing his job. Every action taken in the DT series is to either thwart Walter/Flagg or the Crimson King or to get closer to the Tower. But since distance from one point to another is meaningless in Roland's world (especially with the application of the doorways), the geographical journey to the Tower is just a cover for Roland to fulfil his position as its Guardian. Ka is a wheel, and the threats to the Tower are cyclical, so Roland must match the cycles.

Its a kind of unusual way for the Tower to protect itself - who can figure out Gan's thinking, though? :)

Or another way to look at it would be to consider the Tower is malfunctioning - its taken alot of damage over the centuries, what if sending him back to the desert was a glitch? A flawed prize given by a flawed objective to a flawed character.

You seriously rule Zone. :thumbsup:

root?

Jean
10-30-2007, 11:05 PM
Zone's post is brilliant! http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif Though I definitely disagree that Roland is the Guardian, or anything else but a regular human mortal man (the story would have lost all interest for me, be it otherwise).

By the way:

Roland of Gilead stood atop the Cradle of Lud, dressed in gold.
No, she thought, at last remembering to breathe again. It's not him . . . but in another way, it is. That man was a gunslinger, and the resemblance between him, who's probably been dead a thousand years or more, and Roland is all the truth of ka-tet you'll ever need to know.
(The Waste Lands)

fernandito
11-12-2007, 10:15 AM
I was chatting with a former dt.net member just a few days ago, and he had an interesting theory - all the roses in Can Ka No Rey are actually manifestations of the tower from all it's different levels, and each one is singing to Roland for it's salvation..and the quest to save each is just a little different than the previous. Interesting :)

MonteGss
11-12-2007, 05:59 PM
I was chatting with a former dt.net member just a few days ago, and he had an interesting theory - all the roses in Can Ka No Rey are actually manifestations of the tower from all it's different levels, and each one is singing to Roland for it's salvation..and the quest to save each is just a little different than the previous.

Interesting :)
Very!


Cool, thanks for sharing amigo!

Wuducynn
11-12-2007, 06:36 PM
Interesting, considering the implications of the fact that in order for Patrick Danville to get the right shade of Los's eyes that he had to mix one of the roses and Roland's blood, the blood of the Eld. :harrier:

Erin
11-12-2007, 09:32 PM
oh wow. I love that theory.

Storyslinger
11-13-2007, 06:50 AM
Those are great ideas fp and CK

LadyHitchhiker
11-13-2007, 08:13 AM
All this talk of Jake and the horn I thought of something silly. How big is the horn? Does anyone remember? Would he be able to still keep Jake from falling if he's lugging this horn around?

Sorry.. had to ask.

Storyslinger
11-13-2007, 08:15 AM
It is just a small hand-held horn

LadyHitchhiker
11-13-2007, 08:15 AM
I felt immense grief and betrayal.

LadyHitchhiker
11-13-2007, 08:18 AM
I also thought the cycle may end someday with one rose at the top of the tower, and Roland will have to tend to that keystone rose. I know it's not likely, but that's what I thought would happen once Roland got to the top of the tower.

Matt
11-13-2007, 08:41 AM
Wow! Those are some pretty strong feelings Lady, disappointed by the ending?

Samir
11-13-2007, 08:56 AM
Hey guys (im knew xD, i just finished the series and really wanted to browse some forums about what others thought of the ending. Reading through what you've all said i see great points but keep having to consider that the ending in somway should represent the theme and what the author (aka king) is tyring to present.

What i've derived so far (this will deffinately have overlaps with other theories/considerations) is that Roland may infact be the savior of the Tower, less of a gaurdian moe of a man who has to work along Ka in order to save it and the universe. This makes moroe sense if you consider how many times King mentioned that Ka is a wheel, even rementioned it the chapter before with Sussanah in New York.

Then comes the issue of why Roland had the horn. The theory about him forgetting the face of his father is a pretty good one, but i don't think it should be tied in with the first death of Jake. He didn't want ot let him die, nor did he make much of a mistake to let him die, it was a choice, the tower, or the boy. In order to save the tower, he lets the bo die, i doubt Gan would have wanted otherwise, besides, Jake does survive in one way or the other.

The issua with the horn, i thinkt hat shows partof the theme of the book, a second chance to make things right, and each time he gets one thing right, the end? I guess thats for us to imagine, all i see in the future of his journey is each time he has to repeat it to get it right, or at least better, and if he gets it perfect? I thnk Stephen King hinted it when Roland was at the Tower, and King said something like Rolan going to the end. Once Roland gets it right? Then maybe hes finaly saved the Tower, and the rooms on each level would not be filled with such death, as King pointed out, maybe the rooms signified each mistake made by roland, and there where a LOT of rooms^^.

Well thats it for my babble, long days and pleasant nights (love these lines don't you?:D)

Storyslinger
11-13-2007, 08:59 AM
Nice outlook, and welcome

Samir
11-13-2007, 09:01 AM
Ooh thought a little more into it, and thought of this: the more he fixes it, the less he has to climb, and once he has done his quest right (something people wish to do: "if only i could go back in time and do that right", well he HAS to) maybe only then cna the last line of Eld truely enter the Dark Tower, not just the room ont he top. Meh, my 2 cents.

Wuducynn
11-13-2007, 09:07 AM
disappointed by the ending?

What gave you the first clue?

Wuducynn
11-13-2007, 09:09 AM
All this talk of Jake and the horn I thought of something silly. How big is the horn? Does anyone remember? Would he be able to still keep Jake from falling if he's lugging this horn around?

Sorry.. had to ask.

I always knew you wanted to know the size of Roland's "horn". Thats all you cared about knowing since you got into the Dark Tower series, wasn't it?

Brice
11-13-2007, 09:11 AM
:rofl:

Matt
11-13-2007, 12:28 PM
The word betrayal. :lol:

Darkthoughts
11-13-2007, 02:20 PM
Samir - I kinda like what you said there about Roland having to "get it right to truely enter the tower". So, upto this present point he's been opening almost a "trick door", like one in a maze that sends you back to the start when you were literally steps away from the end. But if he completes the quest in the right way (whatever that transpires to be) he'll enter the true heart of the tower (which I'd like to think of as eternal rest for poor Roland) :rose:

fernandito
11-13-2007, 03:59 PM
I've always thought of 'Roland getting it right' as a given.

Wuducynn
11-13-2007, 04:17 PM
Samir - I kinda like what you said there about Roland having to "get it right to truely enter the tower". So, upto this present point he's been opening almost a "trick door", like one in a maze that sends you back to the start when you were literally steps away from the end.

I think he enters the Tower but its getting to the room at the top is what the big issue is. Its there at that final door that is the "trick door" that always sends him back.


(whatever that transpires to be)

If he doesn't get stopped and/or fail within one of his loops. :thumbsup:

Darkthoughts
11-14-2007, 05:23 AM
Samir - I kinda like what you said there about Roland having to "get it right to truely enter the tower". So, upto this present point he's been opening almost a "trick door", like one in a maze that sends you back to the start when you were literally steps away from the end.

I think he enters the Tower but its getting to the room at the top is what the big issue is. Its there at that final door that is the "trick door" that always sends him back.
Yep, I concur - room at the top, because the rooms on the way up are a representation of the stages of life :thumbsup:


(whatever that transpires to be)


If he doesn't get stopped and/or fail within one of his loops. :thumbsup:
Granted, but what I specifically meant by "whatever that transpires to be" was some defining act (as you know I think that's his not dropping Jake). Because that'll have the necessary repercusions to enable Roland to correct all his consequent mistakes of this cycle ;)

Kyonn
11-14-2007, 06:50 AM
Roland is doomed to repeat because he didn't learn what is important.

That is my opinion anyway, the end of the loop is Roland crying off.

Its the same for all of the loops each of us is in. Ever do the same thing over and over and wish every time you are there that you weren't?

He doesn't remember because we seldom do.


This is how I interpreted the ending, despite that fact that I didn’t like it and thought it was cruel.

Roland is being punished for his relentless single mined pursuit of the Tower, putting it above all things even the lives of Susan and Jake. Right before he enters the final door he remembers things people have told him in the past:

“You’re the one who never changes. It’ll be your damnation, boy. You’ll wear out a hundred pairs of boots on your walk to hell.” –Cort

“Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to repeat it” –Vannay

Right before entering the Tower Gan points out that he was so single minded in his quest that he couldn’t even bother to spend 3 seconds picking up his precious horn.

“It would have been the work of three seconds to bend and pick it up” –Gan/Tower

By picking up his horn the next time around it shows that Roland is capable of learning/changing even if it’s just an infinitesimal amount at a time, thus there is hope for his salvation

Roland’s doomed to repeat his quest over and over until he learns that love (Susan), friends (Alain, Cuthbert, Eddie, Susannah) and family (Jake, his true son) are more important than revenge (Walter) and the Tower

Matt
11-14-2007, 07:20 AM
I totally agree Kyonn--very well said too.

Welcome to the site

Kyonn
11-14-2007, 07:25 AM
I totally agree Kyonn--very well said too.

Welcome to the site

Thanks

I would like to add that not only is Roland being punished but we the readers are being punished in a metatextual way.

At the beginning of the last section King warns us to leave Roland’s tale at the door to the Dark Tower and just accept that he made it. King goes on to tell us that some people can never enjoy things in life and that it’s the journey not the destination that’s important, he uses the analogy with sex, how the true joy of lovemaking is the act and not the climax

Those of us who read on despite King’s warnings are “punished” with an ending that he knew most of us would find unsatisfying. To be honest I was pissed with the ending at first, thinking it was all to cruel a fate for Roland but after typing these few paragraph and reading what you others have written on here I now agree when sai King wrote “I wasn’t crazy about the ending either, if you want to know the truth, but it’s the right ending”

I only wish I could have stopped at what I like to call the “ninth gate” ending when Roland enters the Tower (if you’ve seen the movie you’ll understand why I call it that) but like Roland nothing (even sai King’s warning that it was a bad idea) would stop me seeing my little quest to the end.

Storyslinger
11-14-2007, 08:14 AM
Well said

Darkthoughts
11-14-2007, 01:11 PM
Yep - excellent posts there Kyonn :thumbsup: I'm even prepared to let you off for suggesting Roy Keane as Roland :lol:

Welcome, hope we see you around more :)

fernandito
11-14-2007, 01:18 PM
I'm even prepared to let you off for suggesting Roy Keane as Roland :lol:


There's only one Keano!
There's only one Keano!

Darkthoughts
11-14-2007, 01:19 PM
Be quiet! :lol:

fernandito
11-14-2007, 01:23 PM
:D

I'm an Arsenal fan myself (as you well know), but you can't deny that Keano is one of the best holding midfielders ever!

Darkthoughts
11-14-2007, 01:25 PM
He's trouble, I know that much!

Kyonn
11-14-2007, 04:54 PM
Yep - excellent posts there Kyonn :thumbsup: I'm even prepared to let you off for suggesting Roy Keane as Roland :lol:

Welcome, hope we see you around more :)

Thanks lol,

Well obviously Keane to short for the role, plus there Irish accent but he works far better than Hugh Laurie who just flat out lacks the intensity to play Roland (intensity being something Keane has in spades)

May the Red Devils forever stand true and never forget the faces of their fathers

JWskiman
11-14-2007, 05:41 PM
Another new traveler here chiming in on this Palaver... I've read this whole thread and agree with what seems to be the most popular themes, Roland forgetting the face of his father and doomed to repeating this quest until he gets it right, and the horn.

Here's my problem with the horn theory though - why did he all of a sudden just 'have it'? Wouldn't he have been better served being sent back to the battle at Jericho Hill where he initially left/forgot it? How is ka being served if he didn't actually learn the lesson?

Here's another thought to chew on (and if this has been brought up in a different thread I've yet to discover, cry pardon big-big): what if this wasn't Roland's first 'trip around the wheel'? How many times do you think he's come to the Dark Tower before, only to be sent back out again and again? That's the first thing I thought of when I finished.

MonteGss
11-14-2007, 06:52 PM
what if this wasn't Roland's first 'trip around the wheel'? How many times do you think he's come to the Dark Tower before, only to be sent back out again and again? That's the first thing I thought of when I finished.

I think King puts little hints in the story to say as much JW. For example, Eddie feeling as if he had ridden a horse before and how easily he picked it up...also how "right" it felt for him to hold Roland's gun. There more hints that I believe suggest that Roland has indeed done all this before. :)
Oh, welcome to the site too!

fernandito
11-14-2007, 09:20 PM
Here's my problem with the horn theory though - why did he all of a sudden just 'have it'? Wouldn't he have been better served being sent back to the battle at Jericho Hill where he initially left/forgot it? How is ka being served if he didn't actually learn the lesson?


No, because remember : he will always get sent back to the time when he knows that his thoughtless quest would ultimately succeed, and never to the time when he can still change things.

As far as how many times Rolands' gone through the loop - what if the upcoming cycle is his 19th? :D

Kyonn
11-14-2007, 09:32 PM
Here's my problem with the horn theory though - why did he all of a sudden just 'have it'? Wouldn't he have been better served being sent back to the battle at Jericho Hill where he initially left/forgot it? How is ka being served if he didn't actually learn the lesson?


No, because remember : he will always get sent back to the time when he knows that his thoughtless quest would ultimately succeed, and never to the time when he can still change things.

As far as how many times Rolands' gone through the loop - what if the upcoming cycle is his 19th? :D

I'm not sure I agree, because he did change a least one thing, he paused long enough to pick up the horn. That implies he can do things differently and that there's hope for his salvation.

What if this time around he doesn't let Jake fall, or maybe next time around he doesn't put stopping Farson's men over saving Susan? I think either of those things would be enough to break the cycle.

fernandito
11-14-2007, 09:46 PM
Here's my problem with the horn theory though - why did he all of a sudden just 'have it'? Wouldn't he have been better served being sent back to the battle at Jericho Hill where he initially left/forgot it? How is ka being served if he didn't actually learn the lesson?


No, because remember : he will always get sent back to the time when he knows that his thoughtless quest would ultimately succeed, and never to the time when he can still change things.

As far as how many times Rolands' gone through the loop - what if the upcoming cycle is his 19th? :D

I'm not sure I agree, because he did change a least one thing, he paused long enough to pick up the horn. That implies he can do things differently and that there's hope for his salvation.


I don't think he paused to pick up the horn, I think that the Tower/Gan simply granted it to him because of the progress he has made, however in Roland's memory he'll "know" that he stopped just long enough to pick up the horn.

Darkthoughts
11-15-2007, 04:19 AM
but he works far better than Hugh Laurie who just flat out lacks the intensity to play Roland
Hell yes - don't even get me started on Hugh Laurie :lol:


May the Red Devils forever stand true and never forget the faces of their fathers
By Red Devils I presume you mean Liverpool? :P

It's an interesting point about the horn though, I have thought that myself before.

I like your take on it Feev, that Gan granted him the horn for the (moral) progress he'd made. I always simply took it to mean that he'd resumed his quest halfway through a cycle where he did physically pick up the horn on Jericho Hill - similarly because he'd made progress on the previous cycle.

I wonder though if, the fact that he resumed his quest at the point that he did (in the desert following the man in black), means that the decisions he makes with his second ka-tet are more resonant than those he made with the first. I don't really feel that his failing to save Susan, for instance, was a decision made with the same sort of callousness that dropping Jake was. It was more unfortunate and circumstantial than a deliberate choice.

Also, he wasn't imbued with his tower obsession at that time and it's that which is what really damned him. Fighting Farson's men was just part and parcel of gunslinger duty.

Kyonn
11-15-2007, 06:30 AM
I’m not sure if God/Gan granted Roland the horn, I think he made the personal decision to pause his quest for a few seconds to pick it up. I think that that’s the key that Roland has to decided to do things right, that he’s the key to his own salvation and only through is own choices can he be saved.

Just because we see Roland once again in the desert doesn’t mean that’s where he restarted his quest. I think it’s more likely that he lived his whole life over or at least starting form the point he exited the wizard’s rainbow and began his quest for the Tower. By making the decision to pause even if for a few seconds shows he’s capable of changing a doing things different (doing them right). Here the relevant text:

“This is your sigul [the horn], whispered the fading voice that bore with it the dusk-sweet scent of roses, the scent of home on a summer evening – O lost! – a stone, arose, an unfound door; a stone, a rose, a door.”

“This is your promise that things may be different, Roland – that there may be rest. Even salvation”

“A pause, and then: If you stand. If you are true.”

Roland’s doomed to repeat the quest until he makes the right choices like saving Susan* over stopping Farson’s men, or not letting Jake drop, or leaving with Susannah through the unfound door and choosing his friends over the Tower.

As to the question of whether this is Roland’s first time around or not, as others have speculated about, King tells us for a fact that it is not:

“Roland of Gilead walked through the last door, the one he always sought, the one he always found….”

That says to me that this is no where near Roland’s first time around.



*In wizard & glass one of the reasons Roland sights in his own mine for not rushing off to save Susan is because the wizard’s rainbow had showed him that she was not part of his path to the Tower. Without his quest for the Tower, that was induced by the glass, the love struck Roland would have definitely chose to save Susan over all else including stopping Farson’s men.

Matt
11-15-2007, 08:24 AM
Hugh is dripping with intensity :thumbsup:

Spencer
11-15-2007, 04:50 PM
Kyonn has it nailed. Basically, Roland's greatest enemy is himself.

LadyHitchhiker
11-22-2007, 12:56 PM
Yeah, well I've come to terms with some of it now... but that was my initial reaction. After being attached to these characters for 14 years... I guess that's the only way *I* could feel.

Ruthful
11-22-2007, 02:41 PM
My immediate, visceral reaction was one of astonishment. Even though I had an inkling of what was going to happen long before that final line reading it for myself left me in a state of bewilderment. It was a punch in the gut, figuratively speaking.

Then, after a few minutes, I entered a state of depression when I realized the implications of how The Dark Tower concluded. Eventually I accepted it for what it was, i.e. the most appropriate-and wonderful-conclusion to any work Stephen King has ever written.

Frunobulax
11-23-2007, 12:05 AM
Peace, understanding, and then sadness over the ending of this epic saga.

Matt
11-23-2007, 07:26 AM
I was in the camp that it was a suck but as time went on, my pure respect for the man and his ability brought me to the other side.

Stephen King isn't some johnny come lately, he ended it his way for his reasons and I can totally respect that. The story as a whole is by far the greatest book series ever written imo. The end is the end as it should be and always will remain.

but my experience is also very limited...I just know what I like. :lol:

Daghain
11-23-2007, 08:46 AM
After sitting with my mouth hanging open in shock for a few minutes, I decided it was the only really good way to end it. So in the end I was happy. :D

Samir
11-26-2007, 04:12 PM
You have some pretty good points Kyonn. The few things that i've wondered specificaly about, and thought up some answers for, are the horn, return to the desert, and the whispers.

Now with the horn, as Kyonn pointed out, the tower/gan/god tells him that "this is [his] promise that things maybe different this time". The horn is portrayed more as a promise made by gan to Roland, a tolken that shows him that things will indeed be better for him this time around, and that this isn't just a merciless cycle he is forced to run. I still agree with you though, where is the lesson to be learned? One way to look at it could be that the horn just means that this will be a different cycle, but Roland could in fact make his own significant changes int he cycle as he continues.

And to the question about "why the desert?", after rereading abit, i found that it was pretty much answered in the text, it's the point where he couldn't turn back, he is damned to save/enter the tower in the cycle of ka, and he won't stop till he gets it right.

The whispers aren't so direct and are a pain to figure out. The whispers he recieves after being sent ot the desert go against what gan promises him. Cort/Vannay/his mother all tell him that he won't change ETC. Whereas gan tells him it will be different and offers him the horn as proof.

Thinking about this led me to consider them more as warnings than criticism. That way it seems they (or ka?) are warning him about the path he will have to travel, and it's fitting that his mother would offer him the option of rest, since mothers want the best for their children, whereas Cort and Vannay tell him what he does wrong, and the consequences of his ways.

---- Maybe these are the traits that he should change? That because he does not change, does not learn from the past, doesn't consider rest, he has forgotten the face of his father? It would make sense in that aspect since Cort/Vannay where there to teach him how to be a true gunslinger, how not to forget the face of his father.

DTrose19
11-26-2007, 04:46 PM
Ok I know this is a little late in to go back to something on the first page but some of the earlier ideas I sat and analized.


Maybe his mistake was "Forgetting the face of his father" by giving away one of Steven's guns after he lost his fingers. Maybe that's the punishment AND the reason for the loop.

I don't know what made me think of this, I just did.


I always thought that it should have been ok for him to give away the gun because a gunslinger inherited his fathers guns which in the case of our story Roland is explained as his ka-tets Ka-father. So wouldn't that sorta be in light of tradition?



That makes no sense though. He got the horn at the end of the last loop, meaning that he can end the cycle now. He wouldn't have gotten the horn if it was sacrificing Jake that got him stuck in the first place.


I thought this one over and what if this was the first loop in which Roland saw himself as the boys father and his love for him could subconsiously loop over. Maybe he got the horn becausehe opened himself to love again this time.

Matt
11-26-2007, 05:18 PM
I think the horn may be a King mind fuck :lol:

I mean, it seems to me that retaining the horn for another time around wouldn't change too much stuff, but I guess you never know...butterflies wings in China and all that.

This is, of course, running under the assumption that the next loop would be kind of the same and not totally different. Also on where the loop started (in the desert presumably) and the fact that he horn should always be in the past to Roland...loop or no loop

Armand St Pierre
11-26-2007, 09:51 PM
and on it we do turn.

Roland is but the vessel for this wisdom as his story reflects it's truth.
It is a theme that is often repeated amongst SK's other stories.

OchrisO
11-26-2007, 11:20 PM
Someone probably already said this, but I think Roland's loop is his punishment for giving up everything and sacraficeing all of his friends and loved ones(the important things) and countless others in his pursuit of the Tower. King has said, though I forget where, "Hell is repetition." I think the loop is a sort of Purgatory, and this last time, he has finally started to feel the proper regret, so he finds the horn and things will be a lot different the last time through. He, of course, can't save the Jericho Hill boys, but he can save a lot of others.

Storyslinger
11-27-2007, 08:32 AM
After sitting with my mouth hanging open in shock for a few minutes, I decided it was the only really good way to end it. So in the end I was happy. :D

I have to agree that it was the only fair ending he could have wrote

Hannah
11-27-2007, 08:37 AM
I was a little disappointed, but I guess that's because I was expecting more. Like a lot of people, as time went on I came to accept it more.

murphois
11-27-2007, 01:15 PM
Originally, after reading the ending, I had thought it was very oddly placed. Roland walking up to the tower seemed to be the end of the book. Then there was an afterword (I think, I don't have the book with me right now). And then Roland climbing the tower and getting sent back to the desert.

I thought that finishing with Roland at the foot of the tower seemed much more SK's style by leaving it somewhat open ended. I had speculated (no rumor or anything to back this up) at first that SK's editor must have flipped and told him there was no God damn way his readers would allow him to end the story with Roland at the foot of the tower; he'd have a revolt on his hands. But his editor demanded an ending, so SK did, but stuck it to him by making it not an ending at all. He sent Roland back to the beginning.

That's my first thought.

Later, after re-reading the series, I started to think that Stephen King IS the Dark Tower (I wrote about this in another thread). Now that would actually make the ending make more sense. King had often said after his accident that he would quit writing after the DT series was completed because it had become too difficult because of his injuries. But since he found the will to continue writing, Roland starting over with the horn represents SK's choice to keep writing and this time he has more hope for the future after all his ordeals. Roland is whole again (has his fingers) and can start over and fix his mistakes (like letting Jake drop, losing his fingers, etc.) and sound the horn like he always dreamed.

Matt
11-27-2007, 01:18 PM
Its a hell of a theory and I believe the idea that King saw himself as the tower itself does hold water.

fernandito
11-27-2007, 01:22 PM
That is a really insightful-theory you have there murphois.

Storyslinger
11-28-2007, 10:02 AM
That is one theroy I haven't heard before, and I like it

Sinistar
11-28-2007, 10:49 AM
I'm preety much with the majority in this one as saying that the ending was fair and it was the only way to do it. It's easy for me to say that because I've only invested about a year with DT. Some readers who were around since "The Gunslinger" was first written probably didn't feel a sense of closure with that ending.

I know that I felt terrible for Roland...

Storyslinger
11-28-2007, 10:50 AM
I spent a lot of time with the series, and even I didn't have to endure the wait that some had. I can't even imagine

Ruthful
11-28-2007, 11:12 AM
I wasn't particularly looking for a sense of "closure," which might explain in part why I was satisfied with the final conclusion. I did reproach myself when I realized what the ending would be-and how I had so casually overlooked the painfully obvious, which had been foreshadowed for years in advance-but I commended King for not taking the easy route, e.g. the "safe" ending that preceded the coda.

I think the denouement of this series refutes the claim that King is unequipped when it comes to conclusions. I think the conclusion here is just as profound as in The Stand, or his other epic works of horror-fiction.

Jean
11-28-2007, 11:16 AM
Ruthful: I didn't even know there was such a claim! (now, off-hand, I find it preposterous. Can't develop it here; maybe someone will start a thread on King's conclusions in The Constant Writer).

Wuducynn
11-28-2007, 11:32 AM
I spent a lot of time with the series, and even I didn't have to endure the wait that some had. I can't even imagine

Being one of those who grew up with the series since Drawing of the Three came out in the stores, it is hard to express the feelings of finally realizing I was holding the last book of my beloved Dark Tower series in my hands, let alone the ending.

Ruthful
11-28-2007, 11:39 AM
Capital idea, Jean!

Darkthoughts
11-28-2007, 12:13 PM
I thought King was going to be the Tower around the time of WotC, for much the same reasons as you outlined. But you'll remember that he tells Roland and Eddie he is not Gan, merely a vessel for Gan's voice :)

Storyslinger
11-28-2007, 12:14 PM
But, isn't the tower a creation of Gan, so he could still be the tower, right?

Darkthoughts
11-28-2007, 12:16 PM
Gan is the Tower ;)

Storyslinger
11-28-2007, 12:18 PM
Right:blush:,so then it couldn't be King

Storyslinger
11-28-2007, 12:24 PM
I spent a lot of time with the series, and even I didn't have to endure the wait that some had. I can't even imagine

Being one of those who grew up with the series since Drawing of the Three came out in the stores, it is hard to express the feelings of finally realizing I was holding the last book of my beloved Dark Tower series in my hands, let alone the ending.

That is just what I'm talking about, all those years, then finally coming to an end. It was a hard thing to accept

Ruthful
11-28-2007, 12:43 PM
I guess I fit somewhere in the middle in terms of delayed gratification. I started reading TDT sometime in the mid to late-90s, so there was a brief gap between my beginning the series and Book IV-which is still my favorite-but I also experienced the huge drought in the late-90s to early-aughts. Then Stephen King was run over by a drug-addled hillbilly in '99-who the hell hikesuphill on the shoulder of a deserted road-and I was like "oh shit, this doesn't bode well." But then he recuperated and completed the series and everything was gravy.

Storyslinger
11-28-2007, 12:45 PM
Yeah, I think a lot of DT fans went "Oh Shit!" when he got hit. We all feared that the series would go unfinished

Jean
11-28-2007, 02:24 PM
Gan is the Tower ;)
I am not sure. I think he transcends. But, then again, for me "Gan" is only a way (created by Mid-World local mythology) to say God.

fernandito
11-28-2007, 02:27 PM
Isn't it stated somewhere in the text that Gan IS the Tower?

Kyonn
11-28-2007, 02:27 PM
Gan is the Tower ;)
I am not sure. I think he transcends. But, then again, for me "Gan" is only a way (created by Mid-World local mythology) to say God.

Its says in book 7 (don't have time to look up the actual passage) that the Tower is a physical manifestation of Gan.

fernandito
11-28-2007, 02:32 PM
There we go, book VII.

Jean
11-28-2007, 02:34 PM
manifestation does not equal the manifested, not especially can physical manifestation equal what transcends the physical world, or creation equal the creator. Then, I would beg to differ between the mythology (what is believed in Roland's world) and what we can infer from those, often contradictory, often (as it is the case with the lore, especially in a world that has moved on) confused, blurry, partly lost and mixed up, beliefs; moreover, they are very often voiced by people who either can remember only vaguely, or are liars.

Sorry if I am confused and vague myself, I'm three-quarters asleep. I don't think there's anything among the main concepts of the saga that couldn't be the point of a serious discussion, and I don't think its riddles will ever be solved to everyone's satisfaction, or all its concepts defined. It's about as complex as the universe itself, as far as it is possible for a piece of literature. ::falls asleep::

fernandito
11-28-2007, 02:51 PM
so.....in other words, you disagree. :)

Kyonn
11-28-2007, 02:53 PM
manifestation does not equal the manifested, not especially can physical manifestation equal what transcends the physical world, or creation equal the creator. Then, I would beg to differ between the mythology (what is believed in Roland's world) and what we can infer from those, often contradictory, often (as it is the case with the lore, especially in a world that has moved on) confused, blurry, partly lost and mixed up, beliefs; moreover, they are very often voiced by people who either can remember only vaguely, or are liars.

Sorry if I am confused and vague myself, I'm three-quarters asleep. I don't think there's anything among the main concepts of the saga that couldn't be the point of a serious discussion, and I don't think its riddles will ever be solved to everyone's satisfaction, or all its concepts defined. It's about as complex as the universe itself, as far as it is possible for a piece of literature. ::falls asleep::

Sorry "physical manifestation" was just a term I used. the book says something like "Gan is the Tower and the Tower is Gan". It's in book 7, at the end. Its something Roland realizes either right before or right after entering the Tower, When the Tower/Gan is speaking to him.

fernandito
11-28-2007, 02:54 PM
It's also stated that the Tower is not made up stones , but of Gan's "flesh".

Wuducynn
11-28-2007, 04:14 PM
The Dark Tower is the physical manifestation of Gan. The Dark Tower is also the multi-verse...now Gan is the being that brought corruption to the perfection of the chaos of the Prim and Los' is the champion of those who want to bring down the Tower and bring back the perfect chaos and darkness that was.

DTrose19
11-28-2007, 07:11 PM
I was both sad and content . . . it was a confusing time I sat there for nearly an hour just trying to figure out how things could have been different and crying over parts of the book ( yes crying over a book, I think people here may understand that more than a bunch of high school rednecks) but mostly just wishing it wasn't over.

Jean
11-29-2007, 01:57 AM
manifestation does not equal the manifested, not especially can physical manifestation equal what transcends the physical world, or creation equal the creator. Then, I would beg to differ between the mythology (what is believed in Roland's world) and what we can infer from those, often contradictory, often (as it is the case with the lore, especially in a world that has moved on) confused, blurry, partly lost and mixed up, beliefs; moreover, they are very often voiced by people who either can remember only vaguely, or are liars.

Sorry if I am confused and vague myself, I'm three-quarters asleep. I don't think there's anything among the main concepts of the saga that couldn't be the point of a serious discussion, and I don't think its riddles will ever be solved to everyone's satisfaction, or all its concepts defined. It's about as complex as the universe itself, as far as it is possible for a piece of literature. ::falls asleep::

Sorry "physical manifestation" was just a term I used. the book says something like "Gan is the Tower and the Tower is Gan". It's in book 7, at the end. Its something Roland realizes either right before or right after entering the Tower, When the Tower/Gan is speaking to him.

I will find that place as soon as I can; anyway, my main point is that whatever Roland realizes - whatever is said directly by him or anyone else - can never be taken at its face value. It's a book of errors, mythology, and quest for, among other things, the truth (overcoming the lies) and freedom of will (overcoming the lies of ka), which is not ended yet. It is not a philosophical treatise on the nature of Gan and universe; we have to glean the necessary information and think for ourselves. My observations of the context make me believe that Gan is not identic to the Tower, and the following:


It's also stated that the Tower is not made up stones , but of Gan's "flesh".

is sure a metaphor, so often used in the religious context when we have to speak of the unspeakable (=lying far beyond our human experience expressible in words), but I am afraid it would require a separate thread to discuss further. http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

Darkthoughts
11-29-2007, 03:36 AM
Jean!! *shakes finger at Jean* Why must you always disagree and make me go and look things up? :lol:


SPOILERS FOR THE GUNSLINGER BORN COMICS COMING UP!






In the DT comics, it's elaborated on and this is what they say:


And what about you, Gabby, asked Vannay. Can you break your perpetual silence and tell us who Gan is?
The Dark Tower, Roland told him. The Tower is Gan, and Gan is the Tower.


When the architects, electricians, and builders arrived in End-World, they were amazed by what they saw. Not only was the Tower more imposing than they had realized, but what they had taken for stone was actually hardened flesh.


But despite the horror and the havoc, the Tower survived. Listing to one side on his cracked foundations, Gan let one drop of his blood fall from his flesh.
(This creates the rose, which then sings the other roses into existence.)

Jean
11-29-2007, 03:47 AM
seems like I have to quietly tiptoe out of the conversation... http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_sad.gif I never read comics, and never understood why they should be considered canon. I have the book to go by, and - the below is strictly my opinion! - the book never was as vulgar in treating the subtle relations of deity and creation as those passages. Even they are open to interpretation, though (because if we took them literally, the whole metaphysical construction wouldn't work), but not having read the comics I don't feel competent enough to offer any interpretation of the text above. I really don't understand, though, why they should be considered part of the saga. The book is written and finished; there may be comics, movies, ballets and T-shirts; what does it all have to do with the canon text? (the previous line is written by someone who has no idea what comics are, grew in a country where they were quite uncommon, and is totally ignorant of their idea, so should be taken as a private, incompetent opinion.) http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

Darkthoughts
11-29-2007, 03:53 AM
I would never call your opinions incompetent, dear bear :huglove:

The comic part of the comics (if you understand what I mean - the picture parts in other words) deal mainly with the young gunslingers and their WaG tale. But at the end of each comic are histories and legends of Roland's world - which are really interesting. They are written in normal format - I think you'd like them, if you want I could type them out and pm them to you :)

Jean
11-29-2007, 03:58 AM
I wanted to say, "please please do!" - but type? I don't want my ladyfox http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wub.gif to spend her days typing. There must be some other way I'll try to find, now that you got me interested in them. http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_sara01.gif
However, to what extent are they canon and can be referred to for confirmation of our points of view?
(to everybody: sorry to be off-topic, but it's only for a moment)

Darkthoughts
11-29-2007, 04:01 AM
Robin Furth (she who authored the Concordance, which King originally hired her to do for his own use when writing the rest of the series). King is very closely involved in the comics, there are some interviews with him in the backs of the issues.

Don't worry, it's not a huge amount of typing, a couple of pages in the back of nearly each one - I'm going to do it anyway Jean, so stop protesting :P

Jean
11-29-2007, 04:14 AM
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/thankyou295.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear-176.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear-176.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear-176.gif

Wuducynn
11-29-2007, 06:43 AM
I would never call your opinions incompetent

I would. Not because they are necessarily, just because this would be something I would do.

Wuducynn
11-29-2007, 06:44 AM
Robin Furth (she who authored the Concordance, which King originally hired her to do for his own use when writing the rest of the series). King is very closely involved in the comics, there are some interviews with him in the backs of the issues.


THIS is why the comics are considered canon. A lot of information from the end-stories is directly from King. Very important reading because they expand on the Dark Tower mythos.

Jean
11-29-2007, 06:52 AM
I don't understand. That must be the difference of our cultural contexts. For me, books are books ("and done is done"), and the Dark Tower paraphernalia, including illustrations, comics, movies, musicals, soundtracks and lyrics, interviews, concordances, stamps, porcelain figurines etc is something quite unnecessary, arbitrary, external, and belonging in the outside darkness (however nice or clever they may be). That's why I'll have to withdraw from further discussion, much as it pains me... at least I will make AllHail happy.

Wuducynn
11-29-2007, 06:59 AM
Well the Dark Tower comics are part of the Dark Tower canon, because they are -

A. King expanding on the Dark Tower mythos by working together with these other folk to make more Dark Tower stories in the upcoming books

B. By already expanding the mythos by putting what I've been calling "end-stories" at the end of each of the The Gunslinger Born edition which tell about all kinds of things that weren't explained in the books.. E.G. The origin of the Crimson King, what the Imperium was all about, about Maerlyn, origins of Elder Jonas and Rhea Dubativo etc.

Darkthoughts
11-29-2007, 10:28 AM
Yes, I agree, CK. I also see your point very clearly Jean, and I'd be inclined to agree with it up to a point.

Where I disagree with you and start agreeing with CK is with the DT comics. I think it's additional information that King had in his head at the time of writing the series, but was perhaps cut by editors, or left out because King foresaw it being cut. It's mythology that's an integral part of the story - what the Silmarion (sp?) is to Lord of the Rings, for example.

If JK Rowling does write a Harry Potter encyclopedia, I will also take that as canon. (And I know you won't :lol: )

Jean
11-29-2007, 10:38 AM
I think it's additional information that King had in his head at the time of writing the series

it's a new angle I hadn't considered (as I said, I am new to the very idea of comics). http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

Wuducynn
11-29-2007, 10:56 AM
They're more like minature graphic novels more than comics. They really are quite amazing, I especially love the end-stories.

fernandito
11-29-2007, 11:07 AM
Agreed. The Arthur Eld short-stories were my favorite.

OchrisO
11-29-2007, 11:09 AM
I would have to call anything that King is directly involved in creating in realtion to The Dark Tower canon, myself. It is his world, he decides when the story and information is complete, not the reader. That makes the comics canon.

Jean
11-29-2007, 11:22 AM
I am sorry to have taken this thread so far off its topic. I disagree with OchrisO's post above (I agree it's the author who decides when the story is complete, but in my opinion he does it when he writes "The End", - which means that the book is over, and all other means of expression, be it graphics or music, can't do anything about it), but I really didn't expect this conversation to be that long. http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

Wuducynn
11-29-2007, 11:29 AM
Its amazing how that happens isn't it?

Jean
11-29-2007, 11:33 AM
Originally, after reading the ending, I had thought it was very oddly placed. Roland walking up to the tower seemed to be the end of the book. Then there was an afterword (I think, I don't have the book with me right now). And then Roland climbing the tower and getting sent back to the desert.

I thought that finishing with Roland at the foot of the tower seemed much more SK's style by leaving it somewhat open ended. I had speculated (no rumor or anything to back this up) at first that SK's editor must have flipped and told him there was no God damn way his readers would allow him to end the story with Roland at the foot of the tower; he'd have a revolt on his hands. But his editor demanded an ending, so SK did, but stuck it to him by making it not an ending at all. He sent Roland back to the beginning.

That's my first thought.

Later, after re-reading the series, I started to think that Stephen King IS the Dark Tower (I wrote about this in another thread). Now that would actually make the ending make more sense. King had often said after his accident that he would quit writing after the DT series was completed because it had become too difficult because of his injuries. But since he found the will to continue writing, Roland starting over with the horn represents SK's choice to keep writing and this time he has more hope for the future after all his ordeals. Roland is whole again (has his fingers) and can start over and fix his mistakes (like letting Jake drop, losing his fingers, etc.) and sound the horn like he always dreamed.

I thought King was going to be the Tower around the time of WotC, for much the same reasons as you outlined. But you'll remember that he tells Roland and Eddie he is not Gan, merely a vessel for Gan's voice
bump
that's where we were before I started stubbornly arguing against Gan being the Tower. http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

Rolands_Father
11-30-2007, 01:35 PM
Here's an excerpt from The Road to the Dark Tower regarding Flagg's death:




Readers may be disappointed at the unspectacular demise of this legendary villain who outwitted great minds for centuries without ever truly achieving any of his goals. He failed in Delain, in Las Vegas and in Mid-World. Roland isn't present when this ancient deceiver who bedeviled him all his life finally pays for his prodigious list of sins. Still, perhaps it is fitting that Walter, like Dr. Frankenstein, dies at the hands of a creature he was innstrumental in creating: Roland's ill-begotten offspring. Walter's death also disproves his own prophecy that Roland would have to slay the Ageless Stranger to gain the Tower. Perhaps this is a harbinger that Roland's quest to defeat the endless loop of his existence won't succeed this time.




Thats great! I felt that if Roland found somthing (other than the "Ka wheel") at the top of the tower, it probobly wouldent be what anyone wants. Nobody would have aggread with it that way. So i believe it is better left hanging. I like it better when you can decide what Roland finds at the top, if the quest ever ends...

Wuducynn
11-30-2007, 04:21 PM
Yeah, thats pretty much what I'm trying to say - that power (of the red) corrupts in a way that is often detrimental to the weilder.

Well what I was saying is I don't think it has anything to do with corruption of "evil" or the Red. It was just that Walter had grown old and too sure of himself. He had come across a being that was more powerful than him and he was too full of himself to believe it.

Armand St Pierre
11-30-2007, 10:07 PM
There are SO many ways in which the ending of this series met my expectations of Mr. King's Magnum Opus as it unfolded before my constant reading eyes.
Viewed in a certain context this body of work represents some colossal and undying truths about mankind and it's place amongst a greater framework.
It is a celebration of truth merging with imagination in such a way that it is all but impossible to be naught but caught enraptured.
The best part about the ending, for me, is how the story's own clearing at the end of the path is the key to the path itself.

Jean
11-30-2007, 11:52 PM
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_thumb.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_thumb.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_thumb.gif

Darkthoughts
12-01-2007, 03:57 AM
Ha ha ha! - I was just about to say that Jean would love that post :D

Spencer
12-01-2007, 06:58 AM
So i believe it is better left hanging. I like it better when you can decide what Roland finds at the top, if the quest ever ends...

My thoughts exactly. I'll have to find a pic of my inscription in the Booksigning Tour Book and show you what I said.

Jean
12-01-2007, 11:16 AM
Ha ha ha! - I was just about to say that Jean would love that post :D
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wub.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wub.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wub.gif

Sai_Rhavan
12-01-2007, 12:24 PM
Only one thing truly bothered me, and that was how they portrayed the Crimson King.

... You mean to tell me that the man so evil, so rotten, that he nearly wiped 3 seperate book characters out of existence (Including my favorite, Jack Sawyer) with his cunning intellect, had no more than one letter for the majority of his conversation in the final battle?
"EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!"

Matt
12-01-2007, 01:26 PM
He'd gone totally batshit at that point though. I think he had a hell of a career but in the end was quite lost. I suppose that is a lot of the reason that Roland was able to finish it--but in the end, he would have walked up to that Tower, as the sun went down no matter what was there.

I think that's significant because really anyone could have bested Roland at the end, the Tower made him really easy to beat. :(

Matt
12-01-2007, 01:27 PM
I can totally understand that DTrose--that's how you know it was a good book imo. :lol:

Spencer
12-01-2007, 01:41 PM
What did you feel when this long and amazing journey finished forever?

Actually I felt exactly the opposite. Because of the last line, the journey never has to end. :D

alinda
12-01-2007, 01:55 PM
I remember sitting there with gooseflesh, in awe.
It was a long journey one I didnt want to end.
Given that last statement, I truely loved the end.

LadyHitchhiker
12-01-2007, 04:44 PM
Was I satisfied? No... but I've been told I'm insatiable ;)

Childe 007
12-01-2007, 09:24 PM
and on it we do turn.

Roland is but the vessel for this wisdom as his story reflects it's truth.
It is a theme that is often repeated amongst SK's other stories.

This is the way I have come to see it also. Hampster Wheel, but with a purpose.

The mistake that I think I made right after reading DT VII was to assume that reality "reset" when Roland was sent back to the desert. As time has passed and clues discovered I no longer believe this. Time is soft in Roland's world anyway and I don't think that time has turned back even for Roland. The only thing that has changed is the fact that he doesn't remember reaching the Tower. And this time he has his horn. As far as time and reality go - i think it marches on. Roland's quest keeps the fabric of the multiple realities intact. As long as he quests for the Tower - and keeps the Beams safe - the multiverse rolls along.

Sai_Rhavan
12-02-2007, 12:15 PM
I was dissapointed, to say the least. I won't spoil anything, but I felt that so much was sacrificed on this long journey that it would end this way. Then again, the sacrifices were partly responsible though.

I did think it was the only possible way to end it without it being cheesy.

...And now that I've just seen that this website has smiley faces, I shall continue to go Super Saiyajin. :onfire:

Rolands_Father
12-04-2007, 12:22 PM
:unsure:
Only one thing truly bothered me, and that was how they portrayed the Crimson King.

... You mean to tell me that the man so evil, so rotten, that he nearly wiped 3 seperate book characters out of existence (Including my favorite, Jack Sawyer) with his cunning intellect, had no more than one letter for the majority of his conversation in the final battle?
"EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!"

I think it just showed how weak the crimson king was, and it showed how overrated people( for lack of a better term:unsure:) can really be! I'll admit, that scene was not As cinimatic as i thaught it would be, but it just felt right. Hard to explain...
Oh and another question...
Can you guys share what you guys expected the crimson king to be or do??????

Matt
12-04-2007, 12:30 PM
That last one is a damn good question. :lol:

Matt
12-04-2007, 12:31 PM
Oh yeah, we have smiley's in spades. :cool:

Rolands_Father
12-04-2007, 12:32 PM
I felt shock,sorrow, awe, wonder, and then a day later...
:thumbsup: SATISFACTION!!!!!:thumbsup:

I think people that judge the ending right away loose somthing, you need to accept it and let it sink in!!!!!!!

LadyHitchhiker
12-04-2007, 03:16 PM
Actually I thought the Crimson King might be an evil Stephen King and therefore be completely formidable.

Jean
12-05-2007, 12:12 AM
Oh and another question...
Can you guys share what you guys expected the crimson king to be or do??????


That last one is a damn good question. :lol:

...probably requiring a separate thread. Maybe Rolands_Father could start one?

jayson
12-05-2007, 05:20 AM
I was pleased with the overall ending [ie. Roland being a mythic character who will continue questing for the Tower over and over and over].

However, I have to echo the previous post on the ending met by the Crimson King. Here we were presented with this powerful entity, who in the end was destroyed by an eraser?!? It's not that I expected him to fall victim to Roland's guns like anybody else would, but I felt a bit cheated that Roland's part in the CK's demise was limited to skeet shooting for sneetches while Patrick drew and erased him. That was a bit anti-climatic for the final shooting scenes of the quest. Everything else I am fine with, but Roland should have gotten to do more than target practice in his final "battle."

Jean
12-05-2007, 05:54 AM
Well, I wouldn't say he was destroyed by an eraser. He was destroyed as a result of a complex event, where working agents included, among others, a rose (not just a flower, either) picked by an hero who had been trying to get to the Tower all his life, etc.

Wuducynn
12-05-2007, 07:10 AM
I think if you think that Los' was "destroyed" by an eraser you ought to re-read the battle scene. Like Jean said there was a lot more going on there than just that.
Another thing, some folk who don't like that all the CK could do was scream EEEEEEEE and throw sneetches don't understand that several big events had weakened him drastically at that point...most importantly the re-birth of the Beams.

jayson
12-05-2007, 07:18 AM
I think if you think that Los' was "destroyed" by an eraser you ought to re-read the battle scene. Like Jean said there was a lot more going on there than just that.
Another thing, some folk who don't like that all the CK could do was scream EEEEEEEE and throw sneetches don't understand that several big events had weakened him drastically at that point...most importantly the re-birth of the Beams.

For the record, I don't think the CK was literally destroyed by Patrick's eraser alone. I certainly understand the part the rose and Roland played in his ultimate demise, and I defintitely understood that (a) the regeneration of the Beams weakened the CK, and, perhaps more importantly, (b) the CK was perhaps not as powerful as he was believed to be earlier in the series.

All of that said, my point was merely that I wished Roland himself played a greater role in the CK's final scenes than he did. Re-reading it for the umpteenth time won't change that. I have no problem understanding the metaphysics of the CK's demise, I just found it a touch anti-climatic.

Wuducynn
12-05-2007, 07:27 AM
the CK was perhaps not as powerful as he was believed to be earlier in the series.


I think he was very powerful but in the end with the Beams and being trapped had weakened him it didn't matter. The re-reading it comment was directed to your eraser comment. How is anyone to know what you literally believe unless you state it in the first place?

jayson
12-05-2007, 07:51 AM
How is anyone to know what you literally believe unless you state it in the first place?

How about by continuing to participate in the discussion just like we did this time?

FYI, I wasn't offended or anything by your re-reading comment, just wanted to let you know that I understood your take on the specifics of the CK's demise, which admittedly, was not directly evident from my initial post [it was my first so I didn't want to go too far into it and just start babbling].

Matt
12-05-2007, 08:04 AM
Well said.

I agree that it was a combination of CK being a bit overhyped (seriously, he really was as people like that often are) and the recent events in his existence.

Like I said before, it wouldn't have mattered who was there. Roland was approaching the Tower at sundown, no matter what.

My son could have taken him out with a fork at that point. Roland I mean.

Wuducynn
12-05-2007, 08:04 AM
FYI, I wasn't offended or anything by your re-reading comment, just wanted to let you know that I understood your take on the specifics of the CK's demise, which admittedly, was not directly evident from my initial post [it was my first so I didn't want to go too far into it and just start babbling].

Good deal because there wasn't any offense meant. Often times some folk (not you obviously) when reading the Dark Tower series will take events at face value instead looking at the bigger picture and thats what I point out to a lot of folk.

Wuducynn
12-05-2007, 08:12 AM
I agree that it was a combination of CK being a bit overhyped (seriously, he really was as people like that often are) and the recent events in his existence.


I think the over-hyping really from the reader point of view, but if you gather all the evidence in the series, from the characters point of view he was not over-hyped at all. Here is a were-spider demon god who has the very real potential of bringing down the Dark Tower itself, who has a vast army populating multiple worlds with who knows what kind of spiritual and technological abilities at his command. He blackened a land just because. He rode to the Dark Tower in a portable storm. He forced most of his castle to kill themselves just by wishing them to. When he speaks sometimes a child dies somewhere as a direct result.
And those are just things that we know about.

Jean
12-05-2007, 08:15 AM
agreed, AllHail... and the very concept of a dead insane king hanging about the Tower isn't anything to spit on, either...

jayson
12-05-2007, 08:18 AM
Good deal because there wasn't any offense meant. Often times some folk (not you obviously) when reading the Dark Tower series will take events at face value instead looking at the bigger picture and thats what I point out to a lot of folk.

One thing I have learned from re-reading and re-reading these books is that very little can be taken at face value at least with regards to the metaphysical aspects of the series. I have yet to re-read it without having at least one "oh, i never really thought of it like that before" moments.

I actually have a mildly developed theory about the demise of Los with respect to Patrick. In short, I feel Patrick had an ability to "undraw" Los from End-World much the way Roland was able to draw his Tet to Mid-World. Of course Patrick did it by literally drawing his subject. Obviously more goes into it than simply Patrick drawing and then "un-drawing" the King, particularly the dye made from part of the crushed rose [as I find the field of roses to be a part of the tower and thus infused with the ka of the tower] and part of Roland's blood [ie. the blood of the Eld, which flows in the CK as well]. Perhaps Roland's own "drawing" ability allowed him to facilitate Patrick's disposal of CK?

Matt
12-05-2007, 08:18 AM
Sure, he was a serious bad ass for sure. But I think part of his "hype" was the idea that he wouldn't do things as "human" as he did them. Make the mistakes he made.

The guy was powerful as shit, no question. But he was still kind of an idiot which is what I meant by not living up to the hype. Its very common among supervillians. :lol:

Wuducynn
12-05-2007, 08:20 AM
But he was still kind of an idiot which is what I meant by not living up to the hype. Its very common among supervillians.

Yeah, and super heroes...like letting kids drop... :whistle: ;)

Matt
12-05-2007, 08:22 AM
Exactly--I wouldn't consider Roland as living up to the hype either. :lol:

Jean
12-05-2007, 08:22 AM
Sure, he was a serious bad ass for sure. But I think part of his "hype" was the idea that he wouldn't do things as "human" as he did them. Make the mistakes he made.

The guy was powerful as shit, no question. But he was still kind of an idiot which is what I meant by not living up to the hype. Its very common among supervillians. :lol:
Especially supervillains as described by King, yes. I think it's one of his main themes - the vulnerability and the ultimate vincibility of evil.

Wuducynn
12-05-2007, 08:22 AM
"heroes" "villains" such subjective language...one persons hero is anothers villain..etc.. :P