The Official End Thread

[Rambo, John J]

Insult you – God forbid, it’s all the matter of my wrong (as often happens) word choice; the natural antonym to “honest” does seem to be “dishonest”, but, as God is my witness, I didn’t imagine you in this - antonymous - position; also, I am afraid, the core word itself was wrong, and I still fail to find any better. Not really an “honest” reader, no, but someone who identifies with his reading to the point of starting an additional life every time he opens a new book; thus, it would be as futile for him to try to escape these fatal words, “the end”, as it would be for us to expect to cheat death indefinitely.

Especially when a book is Opus Magnum, the crown achievement and the big total of an author’s life, and especially if the book is so essentially intricate as TDT is.

I already bored everyone by saying it over and over, but I will say it again because I feel it is true – the Dark Tower saga is a simulation of the multiverse on many levels, and being essentially complex entails being formally convoluted; that’s why using the words “games” and “tricks” in any derogative way was the farthest thing from my mind. He makes the world for us, and he makes us live in it; at tmes he plays with us as God sometimes does, and Devil does all the time.

It is human to pray for the cup to be taken away. It is understandable to want to escape death at least this one time, - only it is there anyway, and no life is complete without this final period mark.

In this case King himself made this prayer of the chalice for us – it was his way of warning that Golgotha lies ahead. I am sure King wasn’t disappointed by what he wrote; nor was he afraid of disappointing his reader. He was warning that the last pages would be incredibly hard for the reader, as they – I believe – were for the writer; he was giving us illusion of choice, of a possibility of slipping out through back door; but he knew that ultimately there was no such thing as escape, and if he drank the cup, we, his readers, wouldn't shirk drinking it with him.


(I do so hope that the above - however incoherent - has at least in some way shown that our understanding of stories and storytelling is not really so different... http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif)

It has indeed Jean - blame my misunderstanding on me being foolish and not quite awake at the time of writing.

As for me, i've had a bit more of a think, and I suspect I stopped reading because if I carried on to the end, then the story really would be over, and being a rabid tower junkie for all of my adult life (and most of my adolescence) I wasn't quite ready to let that happen.

Perhaps a tad overly melodramatic, but thats my story and i'm sticking to it. Think of it as a literary equivalent of Paul Giamatti's wine taster in Sideways. You know the part where he explains about his incredibly expensive, classy wine, and that how he's saving it for a special occasion? I guess thats how I am about the book. I just need someone to kick me up the arse and tell me that the day I finish it will be occasion enough.

I think your last paragraph may be the booster I need.

Anyhoo, I just wondered if anyone else had stopped reading, because for me, it was the first time where i've done that sort of thing. I'm usually a detail whore, reading everything avidly from cover to cover.

I love this by the way: "the Dark Tower saga is a simulation of the multiverse on many levels."

Exactly how i feel.

[Rambo, John J]

it is the perfect ending and thats all i will say. ;-) and i would love to hear your take on it john, if one day you choose to read it.

Really? Thats great to hear. One other reason i've cried off has been because my brother (who's book collection I raided to start my journey) did read to the end, and when I told him that I hadn't he replied 'I wish i'd done that.'

I took that to be that he was ultimately disappointed by the ending, so its refreshing to hear you say that blaine! Say thankya.

[Jean]

Think of it as a literary equivalent of Paul Giamatti's wine taster in Sideways. You know the part where he explains about his incredibly expensive, classy wine, and that how he's saving it for a special occasion? I guess thats how I am about the book.
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Bears haven't seen the movie, but they sure can relate to the idea!

[blaine]

i could'nt believe it when i heard people saying they were in some way disappointed with the ending, when you finally read it you will realise its the only way it could possibly end and it is possibly the bravest and most thoughtful ending to a series ever.

also i believe that in some way the part where king tries to encourage you not to read to the end is almost like a final trick by the crimson king to prevent the reaching of the top of the tower ;-)

[AnOutsider]

Now this goes against the whole idea that Roland is looping so that each time he can do something different to finally be saved, but bear with me.

I had one of my random dreams nights last night where all my dreams were completely random, yet completely sane. That is to say they were about topics that were out there, but so real it could have been written for TV.

One of the dreams I landed in had me as I suppose Roland, and there was some temptation that I'm not clear on. Either I had to make a sacrifice to save someone or just to ease my own mind regarding what was coming ahead, but some"thing" was telling me to renounce the tower to make it all better.

By renouncing the tower, the bad thing that was coming wouldn't happen, but I'd be doomed to loop forever (the voice even went so far as to mention I'd start my life again in the desert in book/chapter 1 haha).

So ignoring the fact that this was a nutty dream, what do we think of that? Could Roland's looping be a punishment for renouncing the tower in his "first life"? not likely, but if so, how the heck would he have begun the looping if he never made it to the tower?

[flaggwalkstheline]

I'm of the opinion that rolands fate is punishment for NOT renouncing the tower and for all the bad things he has done to get there

[sarah]

I believe, like others here, that Roland isn't really looping. He just getting higher and more evolved in his quest.

couple (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=1778) of threads (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=612) that might interest you. I know they are long but very helpful in my opinion. Welcome to the site AnOutsider. :D

[pathoftheturtle]

That unfound timeline is not a reality which once ceased to exist. Rather, it represents the resolution of the loop, which can never come to be unless the gunslinger meets his Maker.

[flaggwalkstheline]

That unfound timeline is not a reality which once ceased to exist. Rather, it represents the resolution of the loop, which can never come to be unless the gunslinger meets his Maker.

but he did meet his maker:panic::P:orely:

[pathoftheturtle]

...I am afraid, the core word itself was wrong, and I still fail to find any better. Not really an “honest” reader, no, but someone who identifies with his reading to the point of starting an additional life every time he opens a new book...
"faithful"?:orely:

:) There are in fact other folken who have taken that position for various lengths, JJ. Sometimes people are different... it's all good. I just hope that you'll take care around here; very glad in any case to have your input, but you won't want an ending spoiler. Poor trade. Whatever else one may say about it, King's version is well-written.

[Letti]

I am sorry I had to move this thread but it does belong here and in some days I am going to merge it with the one of the ending threads. Sorry for doing so but we can't have many threads about the very same topic.
Thank you for your understanding.

[pathoftheturtle]

I have one further thought about the ending of the series. When Rolland is 'tugged' back in time to be doomed to repeat his quest over, it is sugested that he has made it to the Dark Tower many times, and has been shoved back many times.

Why do you think he is being 'punished' like this? is it for sacrificing Jake in book 1?

Also, this has been killing me, each time he gets 'shoved' back to the beginning, does time rest itself? Because throughout the series people seem shocked to see a gunslinger from Gilead and say "Gilead has been gone for thousands of years, you can not be from there!" ...so it would makes sence that time has continued to move forward despite Rolland 'reseting'.

HOWEVER, he sees Sheb from his time in Mejis while in book 1, and Sheb is still alive and well? It's also possible that he is crossing to a new dimension each time and saving that particular one, and he will never be done.hmmm i have never thought of that....that it would seem he is starting the "last dimension" since he starts out with his horn the last time...meaning Jerico hill went differently, which means anything after it (the entire story) could be changed....

interesting...i think at its heart its a great ending as it means many different things to many different people.
and can mean different things to people depending on thier outlook on life at that time.
also doesnt it kind of inspire you to write your own ending to rolands tale in your head. even if its subconcious.I agree with Blaine about saving the other dimensions and also with the post above. Some people hate the way the series ended, but i believe the only reason they hate it is because people want things their own way because their selfish, they dont think about the bigger picture. With Roland being pulled back or being pulled to another universe is just Ka's way of keeping The Tower safe and making sure it will not fall.What is the purpose of the Dark Tower?

On the one hand, it is held to be the very avatar of purpose itself; the lynchpin which holds together all worlds and brings order to reality. Yet it is also suggested that Gan is the Dark Tower, and there is that myth which depicts Gan as a careless creator, virtually indistinguishable from the wild magic called the Prim.

If Roland's loop is realized through the creation of new timelines, then his quest is expanding the multiverse by generating variations on the theme of reality. However, the existence of unlimited paradox is the very definition of chaos. This would mean that Gan is in fact perpetuating the Red. If the Tower was saved in one world, why reopen a time in which its enemies still have a chance?

On the other hand, if Roland continually enters timelines which pre-exist, then what his quest actually does is to bind each in turn into the order of the multiverse. If there are an unlimited number of realities to be tamed, if chaos is indeed infinite, then it could be true that the Tower's purpose can never be completed. Only if some possibilities are to be excluded from the ultimate design would there be any real sense in even calling it a design, and only if Gan does have some sense can any "punishment" of Roland be justified, anyway.

[pathoftheturtle]

That unfound timeline is not a reality which once ceased to exist. Rather, it represents the resolution of the loop, which can never come to be unless the gunslinger meets his Maker.

but he did meet his maker:panic::P:orely:No, he was prevented from an actual meeting.
This may imply flaws in Roland, if one has faith in Gan. However, the ambiguity naturally breeds paranoia.
Your position, f.w.t.l., could be reasonable enough if you are assuming that in fact there really is something that Roland “can do different to finally be saved,” but I was trying to address AnOutsider’s speculation on its own terms.
...By renouncing the tower, the bad thing that was coming wouldn't happen, but I'd be doomed to loop forever...If the loop is Gan’s irrevocable final judgment, then it is unjust, no matter what Roland’s fault. What is the point of punishment if it doesn’t serve for correction? It would be never-ending only if 1.) There is something fundamentally wrong with Roland that Gan cannot fix, 2.) There is something fundamentally wrong with Gan that Roland cannot fix, 3.) There is something fundamentally wrong with nature that no one can fix, or 4.) All of the above. Any of 1, 2, or 3 really implies 4, of course, but the tension of oscillation creates a sense of the unknown while generating simultaneous guilt and angst, in conflict, all perpetuating attachment to status quo. “The bad thing” might be a full exposure of one’s own hidden darkness, (even worse things could be in store for Roland) or it might be learning that life is inescapably absurd (i.e. God really is unfair) which many people would rather not think about... especially once such denial starts to make it practically true.

For this condition to become a meaningless fate could indeed be the gunslinger’s own doing, from ignorance. However, to assert that without sure evidence of the nature of Gan is to at once repress the existential fears which are Roland’s professed motive.

TDT ends in suspense, no more than suggesting an unrealized reconciliation, which reflects the personal anxiety common in our age.

[Jean]

but he did meet his maker:panic::P:orely:


No, he was prevented from an actual meeting.
path, I believe flaggwtl meant Sai King...

[Ret]

I wonder if maybe Roland will only be saved from the loop if he and his whole ka-tet make it to the Tower.

I understand he had the premonition of Oy being impaled on a branch long before "The man in black fled across the desert...", however couldn't his memories be altered just like the Tower certainly has dozens of times?

If his first mistake was dropping Jake, maybe Gan decided to kill the rest of them and force him to start over once more. Perhaps Jake was only resurrected so that Roland may finish his quest to the Tower to start once more...

[flaggwalkstheline]

but he did meet his maker:panic::P:orely:


No, he was prevented from an actual meeting.
path, I believe flaggwtl meant Sai King...

yep thats what I meant

but then that brings up the question of whether or not sai king is really rolands maker or if he actually needs to meet gan him/her/it self rather than just someone possessed by gan...

[pathoftheturtle]

:doh: :blush: :ninja:
Um...yeah! Also, brings up the question of whether King made Roland to meet Gan, or maybe Gan made King to meet Roland. :innocent:
That is, how conscious was the author of the issues that I outlined?

[Letti]

I think we all cause and form our own fate. There might be things we can't avoid there might be things that must happen but at the end we lead the ship of our life. I am not a ka-person.

Anyway I agree with sarah about the looping.

[Jean]

Um...yeah! Also, brings up the question of whether King made Roland to meet Gan, or maybe Gan made King to meet Roland. :innocent:
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[Letti]

Um...yeah! Also, brings up the question of whether King made Roland to meet Gan, or maybe Gan made King to meet Roland. :innocent:
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Or maybe Roland made Gan to make King.. hm..?

[Jean]

Roland would, Roland would... bears can't put anything past him... http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wink-1.gif

[pathoftheturtle]

I think we all cause and form our own fate. There might be things we can't avoid there might be things that must happen but at the end we lead the ship of our life. I am not a ka-person.But that is ka. They say that, "A conclusion is simply the place where someone got tired of thinking." What does "at the end" mean, while our life is still going on? You say that you accept that there are things which you can't control, but you don't believe in ka, because there are things which you can. Differing only in viewpoint is that there are things which I can control, but ka is not for me to say, because I accept that there are things which I can't.

This thread's confusion lies in the double meaning of the quest for the Tower. The Dark Tower is existence. It stands for the order of nature. To seek its top can mean seeking God in man, or seeking man in God. The latter, that very belief in personal dominion, leads to a vicious circle. If we cause and form our fate, then what causes and forms us? In trying to control nature, one gets trapped in a loop because all of us are parts of nature. Can Roland conquer Roland? And yet, insofar as his loop is a metaphor for all human entanglements, there's no real escape to be found in crying off from the higher purpose. Who among us is really doing other than just going around the sun, year after year?

[Brainslinger]

Interesting thoughts!

I don't necesarily see Gan as being a careless creator although that does ring a bell somewhat.

[tattoodgrl]

I may be totally off the mark, but the way i saw it was that this is Roland's personal hell he is damned to keep repeating until he starts to choose his friends over the Tower.
I loved the ending and my immidiate feeling was that I wanted to start the whole series over again. ( I haven't yet though and that was 2 years ago) .:rose:

[Aki]

I think he is sent back into an alternate dimension each time, and that each time he reaches for the tower it's a bit different. I don't know for sure if he'll meet Jake, Eddie and the rest each time, or if it will be as if they never existed.

However he learns something new each time - perhaps he understood friendship and love this last time because of his friends, and he understood he doesn't have to do everything by the book - he took time to gather up the Horn of Eld. I don't think it is a personal hell, instead I think the Tower / Gan means him to learn something, something about friendship and love. And when he finally does, then he is granted the Tower, which rather is a personal heaven.

[sandcracker21]

However he learns something new each time - perhaps he understood friendship and love this last time because of his friends, and he understood he doesn't have to do everything by the book - he took time to gather up the Horn of Eld. I don't think it is a personal hell, instead I think the Tower / Gan means him to learn something, something about friendship and love. And when he finally does, then he is granted the Tower, which rather is a personal heaven.

i can see this as being true, throughout the books roland realizes 'love' and friendship, and even says he never gave either much thought after susan delgato...and this is reflected in him "getting the horn" for the next go around

...maybe he draws three each time but they are three different people, the prisoner, the lady of shadows, and death....but different individuals each time


..the aspect of time is what confuses me the most, that people say giliead has been gone for time out of mind, but rolanda lived there as a teenager??
is roland infact immortal from some damnation?

all good thoughts though

[doh]

I wondered if Roland relived everything pretty much the same, but somehow used the Horn of Eld in Thunderclap, would Eddie have perhaps survived, leaving the ka-tet intact, thus able to reach the Tower complete?

Also, King mentioned in the afterword of book2 (I think it was the Drawing of the Three, anyway) that we must think of someone other than Roland making it to the Tower. If that happened, would say Eddie see his life on the levels, or if they all made it, would they all go in together, and see the same things, maybe Eddies' first year on one level, Jake's on the next?

These are among the reasons that I loved the ending, indeed I thought there could be no other ending. I hate the argument that it was a copout ending.

[tachibana_ichiro_sukeomi]

I was pissed off. I had to re-read it several times. To come all that way in a story, just to be sent back to the beginning. But then I thought about it and it all made sense - a story and its characters really only exist in our minds, so for Roland and the Dark Tower to keep existing, people have to keep on reading his tale. It was SK's way of giving a lasting breath of life to a character he'd come to know and love over the years, and with the horn in his possession, a promise of hope for the readers who know what happens, that somehow Rolands character may eventually find peace. Without the horn to appease us, the fans of the DT series would have rioted! :nana:

[Letti]

I was pissed off. I had to re-read it several times. To come all that way in a story, just to be sent back to the beginning. But then I thought about it and it all made sense - a story and its characters really only exist in our minds, so for Roland and the Dark Tower to keep existing, people have to keep on reading his tale. It was SK's way of giving a lasting breath of life to a character he'd come to know and love over the years, and with the horn in his possession, a promise of hope for the readers who know what happens, that somehow Rolands character may eventually find peace. Without the horn to appease us, the fans of the DT series would have rioted! :nana:

I don't know tachibana. I respect your explanation (and I see its logic) but I must say it hurts my heart. I mean... if you interpret the series this way it loses all its deepness.
I think Roland has to go back (or enters a very similar but still different level of the Tower) because he is not ready to find his way out of his obsession. So he is damned and saved at the same time. He got a new chance but for a horrible price.
My two cents of course no more.
This series tells a different story to you and to me.

[tachibana_ichiro_sukeomi]

Yeah, it hurts me too! I know your explanation is the right one, but It doesnt lift my spirits to think that he may 'get it right' this time, It depresses me that he has to do it all over again. It feels like he's trapped by the books SK wrote.:doh:

[Letti]

Yeah, it hurts me too! I know your explanation is the right one, but It doesnt lift my spirits to think that he may 'get it right' this time, It depresses me that he has to do it all over again. It feels like he's trapped by the books SK wrote.:doh:

But he himself set up that trap.
There are people who say he doesn't want to get out of it at all. I don't agree with them, though.

[Jean]

It feels like he's trapped by the books SK wrote.:doh: No, no... it's SK himself who is trapped, doomed to forever listen to the song and to retranslate it to us... but really, it's a doom to be envied. Roland, in his turn, is bound by categories so high that his destiny is beyond envy or sorrow.

[lowdown]

it was 3:00 in the morning and i cound't sleep till i finshed it .......i felt a little mad at sai King and plenty sad for roland .....but really happy for the rest of the tet.....alot of emotions.....i have almost 16 years with this series and it was hard to accept Rolands fate but like i have seen on here .......maybe King will write in one of his future books (talisman 3??????) about this new loop ...maybe

[BillyxRansom]

it was 3:00 in the morning and i cound't sleep till i finshed it .......i felt a little mad at sai King and plenty sad for roland .....but really happy for the rest of the tet.....alot of emotions.....i have almost 16 years with this series and it was hard to accept Rolands fate but like i have seen on here .......maybe King will write in one of his future books (talisman 3??????) about this new loop ...maybe

talisman 3 may well be further related to the DT, just like BH was related to it in a big way. so this isn't that much of a stretch.

[Sickrose]

I read the books all in one go and considered not reading passed the coda but I HAD to take those last few steps with Roland.

I was gutted when it ended i had read the books for hours at a time every day so I was immersed in Mid Word. The ending. It felt right but I also felt really sad for Roland that he had to do it all again it seemed unfair. I wanted to cry and nearly went to get the Gunslinger and start again but I restrained myself.

I now beleive that Roland will find peace which is why I was happy with the ending his quest might have started but it wil be different. Maybe his tet will join him at the tower one day. If it begins again for Roland maybe it does for the others!

DT has stayed with me since I read it and it was months ago. I think it always will especially with that ending.

[pluginbaby]

I felt kind of empty after I finished. I read my first DT book when I was only 11 and was into my 20s when the final one came out so they'd been a part of my life for a very long time. On the plus side I love seeing how many of his other books tie in with the Dark Tower and give you something new to think about.

[ur2ndbiggestfan]

I agree about the tie-ins. I liked them, especially Flagg. I was SO dissapointed in the last 3 or 4 Dark Towers. In fact, I really hated them. I did not like any of the idioms or the characters (they seemed to change). The only character I really liked all the way through was Oy. I did enjoy the first books, especially The Gunslinger, which I have read at least 3 times, and THE THREE and WASTELANDS I've read twice each. But after that it just turned sour for me. And I too, thought the ending was a real cop-out. However, I may just try to read all 7 books in a row one day (year?) to see if I'm wrong!

[Letti]

I felt kind of empty after I finished. I read my first DT book when I was only 11 and was into my 20s when the final one came out so they'd been a part of my life for a very long time. On the plus side I love seeing how many of his other books tie in with the Dark Tower and give you something new to think about.

It's the same here. I was around 12 when I started the journey and I finished it around 20. But when I finished it I felt full.. completed.


I agree about the tie-ins. I liked them, especially Flagg. I was SO dissapointed in the last 3 or 4 Dark Towers. In fact, I really hated them. I did not like any of the idioms or the characters (they seemed to change). The only character I really liked all the way through was Oy. I did enjoy the first books, especially The Gunslinger, which I have read at least 3 times, and THE THREE and WASTELANDS I've read twice each. But after that it just turned sour for me. And I too, thought the ending was a real cop-out. However, I may just try to read all 7 books in a row one day (year?) to see if I'm wrong!

A re-read might help. If I were you I would give it a try. I feel that the last 3 books are different.. but in a good way.

[hobo bob]

Elation, sadness, wonder..some more sadness and wonder. It didn't just blow my mind, it blew my soul.

Couldn't have said it better myself

[darkrose]

... i fell into some kind of todash state when i finished it...
it was unbelievable, i didnt expect it at all
then after that, when i kinda came to my senses
i felt that my heart is super broken :(
until right now, i really feel bad for Roland!!!

[Letti]

... i fell into some kind of todash state when i finished it...
it was unbelievable, i didnt expect it at all
then after that, when i kinda came to my senses
i felt that my heart is super broken :(
until right now, i really feel bad for Roland!!!

Don't you think he is saved and he has got a new chance?

[Jean]

That's what bears think...

[darkrose]

... i fell into some kind of todash state when i finished it...
it was unbelievable, i didnt expect it at all
then after that, when i kinda came to my senses
i felt that my heart is super broken :(
until right now, i really feel bad for Roland!!!

Don't you think he is saved and he has got a new chance?

---in a way yea.. u have a point there,
but i just feel bad that he has to do it all over again, without US :(

[Letti]

... i fell into some kind of todash state when i finished it...
it was unbelievable, i didnt expect it at all
then after that, when i kinda came to my senses
i felt that my heart is super broken :(
until right now, i really feel bad for Roland!!!

Don't you think he is saved and he has got a new chance?

---in a way yea.. u have a point there,
but i just feel bad that he has to do it all over again, without US :(

Maybe he is ready to make it without us. (Or I am just way too optimistic. :))

[Sickrose]

I agree. I think he is ready to do it without us and I think he will find his peace he can't be locked forever. It's the hon of Eld which gives me hope. he was times an ambigous man so an ambigous ending is fitting I think.

[darkrose]

I agree. I think he is ready to do it without us and I think he will find his peace he can't be locked forever. It's the hon of Eld which gives me hope. he was times an ambigous man so an ambigous ending is fitting I think.

:) now i feel better... thankee sai

[Candice Dionysus]

Somewhat sad that there wasn't more to read, a little lost because I wanted the story to continue, but mostly a strange sort of ecstasy that I always get when I finish a particularly good book/series. I have a sneaking suspicion I'll feel the same way when I finish with the Hitchikers Guide books. I know I felt that way when I finished the Narnia books, and when I finished the Kushiel's Chosen trilogy by Jacqueline Carey.

There we many other emotions, but they were so jumbled now that I doubt I'd be able to remember them... There was such a long build-up of emotion through the year it took me to read them all, so many tears, so much laughter, some sympathy pains in relation to certain characters, a general feeling of love, and an almost overwhelming feeling of continuous epiphany, among others. Even anger, at certain points. When it ended, there was quite a climax - what I felt may be akin to some sort of orgasm of the imagination. At least, looking back, that's what it seems.

[Sickrose]

I agree. I think he is ready to do it without us and I think he will find his peace he can't be locked forever. It's the hon of Eld which gives me hope. he was times an ambigous man so an ambigous ending is fitting I think.

:) now i feel better... thankee sai

Your welcome ! :) Apologies for my terrible grammar!

[lowdown]

simple.....Ka is a wheel ...in a way we have to hear from Roland again ...in some way/form
unless the wheel is broken and that can't happen

[BigCrazy247]

At first, I was shocked and kept turning pages. I just couldn't
believe that was it. But the more I've had time to think about
it...and view the bigger picture, I am satisfied. Who's to say my
version would've or could've been been any better.

When Roland started chanting those names...I was getting so
juiced up waiting....waiting for the big :fairy: and that's exactly
what I got. All the subtle hints flooded back to me and I knew that
was it. We were just like Roland..having been warned to not open that
final door....for us to not read the "ending" but alas, we did.

I would have had him go charging in and putting a bullet through
The Crimson King's eyes, stepping through the door, taking Susan
Delgado in his arms, planting one on her that makes her belly button
tickle, and maybe with Susannah getting some legs, Pere Callahan
throwing another shrimp on the barbie all the while saying, "Hile, Roland..
Gunslinger! What took ya so long? You father is over there with Jake
and Oy waiting for you."

IDK.....I have an active imagination. :clap:

[Sickrose]

Heheh I like your alternate ending BigCrazy247 !

I have no problems with the ending it felt right I wanted peace for Roland but maybe things werent quite right. Because if the World had Moved on then The Tower still wasnt safe despite the Crimson King being killked. Maybe there had to be a fundamental shift in the world and maybe a reversal to the old wasy of magic rather than the Old people's meddling which caused the problems.

Also, I cant imagine what would be at the top of the Tower.

[BigCrazy247]

LOL...thanks, Sickrose. I guess instead of giving one ending
(which most certainly would not have made everyone happy)
he gave us a million possible endings...ones that we will enjoy
because they are OUR endings. It could be a neverending saga
so to speak. I guess there are any number of ways to look at it
but....yes, I'm satisfied with it now.

[Letti]

LOL...thanks, Sickrose. I guess instead of giving one ending
(which most certainly would not have made everyone happy)
he gave us a million possible endings...ones that we will enjoy
because they are OUR endings. It could be a neverending saga
so to speak. I guess there are any number of ways to look at it
but....yes, I'm satisfied with it now.

Still many fans are not satisfied at all.
I am happy you are. :)

[Sickrose]

LOL...thanks, Sickrose. I guess instead of giving one ending
(which most certainly would not have made everyone happy)
he gave us a million possible endings...ones that we will enjoy
because they are OUR endings. It could be a neverending saga
so to speak. I guess there are any number of ways to look at it
but....yes, I'm satisfied with it now.

I like this explanation - we all have our own ideas of what happended.

Still many fans are not satisfied at all. I can understand this it. I must admit it shocked me at first!
I am happy you are. :)


Letti I love your sig/avatar combo. Especially your sig :)

[lisaki]

About the ending, I' try to explain how I felt and the problems I had with it.

- So sad it was over.

- About Suzannah
Cried when Suzannah met the alternative Eddie and Jake. She didn't found her happy ending at all, in my opinion. She just compromised with the present Ka gave to her, to comfort her sorrow. Because... what does make us who we are? Our unwritten soul when we're born? Maybe but definately not only that. Eddie Dean was raised with Henry as a brother, in Co op City, he was an addict, then a gunslinger who loved her through a journey. Eddie Torren was a different man. I felt like she somehow betrayed Eddie Dean, who told her that he'd wait for her not in an alternative universe, but in the end of the path. And as for Jake Torren... who was this boy, this kid? She didn't know him. I didn't recognise him. He wasn't the one who called Roland his father.

- About Roland.
I felt he forgot to call the names of some really important characters when he reached the tower. Why did he call Dinky Earnshaw, for instance, and not Patrick who saved him at the end? He didn't call only dead people names... Why didn't he call the name of the brave Margaret Eisenhart or Rosalita? What about Moses, Deepnau, and mostly Cullum?

- About Roland's fate.
It'd make sense much more to me, if we hadn't given the hope that the next time maybe would be the last, with the horn thing. I'd like to see Roland as a man who holds the Tower and thus the universes safe, by living the same journey again and again. Roland could be a creature that holds everything together. No salvation for him... but only for the Tower and the universes.

That would make sense to me for another reason, also. This is a story about stories. When I finish the last book, someone somewhere in the world is picking the "gunslinger" to read for the first time, and Roland has to start his journey all over again. That's why he had to start from the desert. That's where the "Gunslinger" started. He keeps his own little universe safe, doing this. His universe which is nothing more than 7 books (and who are we to know that our universe is bigger or more important than that?). When people stop reading the DT series, Roland's journey will end. The Beams will break. The Tower will fall. That little universe will be destroyed and forgotten for ever.

[Sickrose]

I think you have raised some really interesting points. I know what you mean about Susannah meeting Eddie and jake. I remember thinking at the time; she has lived with him and knows him inside out but to him it is the start of a new relationship will it work? She wont be able to talk about Mid-world to someone who has no idea what it's all about.

I get the impression Roland's Ka-tet have exsited in many different forms on different levels of the tower.Maybe the clearing at the end of the path is a differnt level of the tower?

Maybe Roland's has one more journey to go but someone else will take up the mantel it's his time has passed?

But definately food for thought :)

[lisaki]

I get the impression Roland's Ka-tet have exsited in many different forms on different levels of the tower.Maybe the clearing at the end of the path is a differnt level of the tower?
I wouldn't like it to be like that. It sure could. I still can't accept that she found "our" Eddie and "our" Jake...


Maybe Roland's has one more journey to go but someone else will take up the mantel it's his time has passed?

As long as Stephen King isn't writing anything else about the Dark Tower, no. But I like this idea :)

[lisaki]

Yesterday I finished my first re-read of Dark Tower VII (It's so dramatic I didn't want to read it again, but at some point I had to).

This is the book of my life (I mean all 7 books),
The first time I tried to stay awake to read the last 50 or so pages, even though I had to go to work. I had only the epilogue and the ending to read but I realised that my heart was beating so fast, and I had somehow chest pains. I realised that If I finished it I wouldn't be able to sleep and work was waiting. Closed the book and had trouble to sleep anyway.
I woke up at 7 next morning. I said to my self that I shouldnt finish the book of my life in the train to work, standing up with so many people around. But couldn't wait to come back from work.
So I did read most of the pages in the train standing up and crying a little, with a lot of people around.
Problem was... I was reading too slow. I wanted to imagine every single detail. I dindt want to miss even a word. I was going back to read something many times.
So I arrived to work having 4-5 pages of the book to read (had read the poem and King's note the night before).
Fortunately boss wasn't there, so I found myself in front of the PC on my office reading the last pages with tears on my eyes.
Had 2 pages left, the final 2 when boss came in. Shut the book and hid it in my bag. Took my bag and locked my self in the WC. I sate on the floor, with my back on the wall, took the book, and yeah... I finished the DT series on the floor of a small WC with bad lighting.
I wasn't shocked. I felt almost nothing at first. Got out and started working because my employer was in hurry. After a while I started feeling REALLY sad, really empty... Couldn't believe it was over, and I didn't want to talk about it. I had an idea that only I could understand that feeling. It felt somehow like a bereavement.
And I still think that my favorite story deserved some free time, a comfy couch, some hot chocolate and good lighting. I surely regretted my decision to finish it that Monday morning...

[jayson]

- About Suzannah
Cried when Suzannah met the alternative Eddie and Jake. She didn't found her happy ending at all, in my opinion. She just compromised with the present Ka gave to her, to comfort her sorrow. Because... what does make us who we are? Our unwritten soul when we're born? Maybe but definately not only that. Eddie Dean was raised with Henry as a brother, in Co op City, he was an addict, then a gunslinger who loved her through a journey. Eddie Torren was a different man. I felt like she somehow betrayed Eddie Dean, who told her that he'd wait for her not in an alternative universe, but in the end of the path. And as for Jake Torren... who was this boy, this kid? She didn't know him. I didn't recognise him. He wasn't the one who called Roland his father.

excellent points lisaki.

the question of susannah's choices and, specifically, whether or not these were the "same" eddie and jake or a consolation prize is one that's been discussed a lot in this thread (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=1734). please add your thoughts as you see fit. :)

[lisaki]

[
please add your thoughts as you see fit. :)
Ι can't do that yet. As I said I don't believe they are the same people. But I'd like to believe it... so much!
So Im actually torn here. Thanks for the link :)

[Tim]

I was impressed by the ending for the sole fact that I had no idea how it would wrap up; I had heard others describe the ending as "predictable," and I'm either extremely dense, or it was just the opposite. I was initially struck, then angry, with Roland's fate... but after deliberation, it seems a fitting quasi-ending... he is punished for being a man consumed by obsession and a lack of compassion... doomed to a fate where he'll once again be given a chance to redeem some of his sins, so that inch by inch, try after try, he may finally redeem what was ultimately a very flawed life

but I agree whole-heartedly about the fate of Flagg. I had envisioned a showdown between the two at the foot of the tower, the past transgressions of Marten, seducing Roland's mother and ultimately leading to her murder at the hands of Roland himself... could've, should've been an epic showdown. instead, we got we got. I hand King this, though... there IS some poetic justice to Roland's own child being the one who ends Flagg's life

[Letti]

I was impressed by the ending for the sole fact that I had no idea how it would wrap up; I had heard others describe the ending as "predictable," and I'm either extremely dense, or it was just the opposite

I think the ending was everything but predictable. (for the two of us at least)

[Wuducynn]

I'm guess I'm dense too because I didn't have smallest inkling of what was going to happen.

[Sickrose]

I didn't see the ending either so it was a shock to me.

[Lily-sai]

:huglove:

[Beambounder]

I do not take it that way,He is a SAVIOR, On the last sentence ,I realized that of course it is the journey ,not the destination. Talent and teaching go hand in hand . I believe he'll find new troubled trainees, have vague memories of Eddie,Jake,Sussanah,Oy, and Susan.
He is a SOUL BINDER,a harsh teacher like SAW;but uses patient, subtle spoon-fed wisdom. After all Ka is a wheel. Little wheels spin and spin ; BIG wheels go round and round. Besides he lives for the quest, that is why The Dark Tower Cycle can warp and go retrograde in its infinite chess game between Dark and Light. Also someone =Roland is destined to hold things toether, over and over again. It is a great gift ,yet a double edged sword.:beat::beat:):):)::beat::). We are what we pretend to be as Vonnegut phrased in "Mother Night." Beware...... Beambounder,AKA E.Freemantle, AKA Ron Scott Sippel

[kluker]

I was kinda pissed off lol:angry:

[sofaki]

No way!! There would always be someone unsatisfied with the ending..i adored this ending and i would be disappointed with anything else :unsure:

[pathoftheturtle]

I don't happen to believe this, myself, but shouldn't there be an option in this poll for anyone who beileves that the ending that King wrote is, yes, the oh-so-perfect?

[Jean]

I don't happen to believe this, myself, but shouldn't there be an option in this poll for anyone who beileves that the ending that King wrote is, yes, the oh-so-perfect?
Right, as usual! I have added such an option.

Dear friends:

if someone wants to change their vote now that we have an additional option, please tell so here in this thread.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

[Wuducynn]

I just love that the non-word "bestest" was used in one of the options in the poll. Thats almost as good as "funner".

[Jean]

I just love that the non-word "bestest" was used in one of the options in the poll. Thats almost as good as "funner". Not being a native speaker, I didn't dare to correct it, considering it some kind of a joke I'm not in on. Do you think I should do it now?

[Letti]

I just love that the non-word "bestest" was used in one of the options in the poll. Thats almost as good as "funner".

Yep, I myself have written that. I do know it's not correct but I meet it very often. I am not a native speaker and I pick up slangs with pleasure and I cannot decide well which ones might be disturbing.
Cry your pardon.
Feel free to correct it Jean.

[Brice]

It is the bestest option though. Do not change it. :D

[Letti]

I was kinda pissed off lol:angry:

More exactly?
Anyway your av is damn good.

[stone, rose, unfound door]

When I read the last line, I thought it was just right. It pissed me off for a few seconds and then I started to think it fitted the story perfectly and no other ending would have been right the way this one is.

[pathoftheturtle]

"...Ain’t no livin’ in a perfect world. There ain’t no perfect world anyway.
Ain’t no livin’ in a perfect world, but we’ll keep on dreamin’ of livin’ in a perfect world..."
~ Huey Lewis & The NewsIt's pretty true that "Nothing is perfect," but I chose to vote for "It was impossible but King should have found a better ending."
After long consideration, I think that what he was trying to do with the DT ending was to elevate certain aspects of Roland's character while condemning others, and by analogy to do the same for his own work as a writer.
However, the ending is terribly vague, and it's too easy for people to mistake the good for the evil; to throw out the baby instead of the bath water.
Is Gan punishing Roland for taking Him too seriously? :unsure: You can't redeem art by trying to justify entertainment, says me. :nope:

All of this is forgivable, though, most certainly. King doesn't have to turn into an essayist, or to be held to standards beyond his form. (He should have just known that! :rolleyes: ) His novels imply great things, raise many good questions for people, and altogether really do work fairly well as true art. It's an okay ending. However, I still wish that he had not rushed it, like he apparently did, for I do believe honestly that he could have made it truly epic.

[cozener]

Well...how many people were dissatisfied with the way The Lord of the Rings ended? I've never heard anyone complain. So, apparently, it is possible to please almost everyone with the ending of an epic story.

But...

Could it have happened with THIS story? No. This series of books took what? 20 years to complete? Too much anticipation. Too much expectation. No, King could not have pleased everyone with it.

I loved the ending. I couldn't imagine a better ending. I could imagine a better way to wind down the story to that oh so perfect ending. I think that those of us that were disappointed with the last few books would say the same. But top the ending? No way.

[jayson]

However, the ending is terribly vague, and it's too easy for people to mistake the good for the evil; to throw out the baby instead of the bath water.


Well...how many people were dissatisfied with the way The Lord of the Rings ended?

i think path's point is a valid one and somewhat addresses coz's question. tolkien's story had a much clearer delineation of good and evil.

one of the things i love about roland is that he is not your white-hat only do good cowboy. he is every bit the anti-hero. he does terrible things but we still root for him to succeed (even if some of us are appalled by some of his choices).

would aragorn have dropped jake?

consider gandalf's advice to frodo about not being too quick to deal out death and judgment.

roland would have shot smeagol in the face on sight.

as i've said before, i am content (though perhaps not altogether satisfied) with the looping aspect of the ending as it fits nicely into several different mythological interpretations i enjoy superimposing onto the series. i didn't need king to answer all my metaphysical questions about how the multiverse works and i suspect i'd actually have been rather disappointed if he'd tried.

but, i am not altogether thrilled with the "final showdown" scene at the tower itself between roland (and patrick) and the CK. i found that extremely anti-climatic and i consider it part of "the ending."

so yeah, i guess i am saying the "perfect" ending is perhaps not possible in this case, but i think he could have done a bit better.

[MonteGss]

I agree with R_of_G. He said it nicely. :)

Man, it's been a while since I read this particular thread...I may have to backtrack to see if I had posted previously. :)

[Wuducynn]

roland would have shot smeagol in the face on sight.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH that is so damn true too.

[Letti]

roland would have shot smeagol in the face on sight.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH that is so damn true too.

:wtf: Without any hesitation.


but, i am not altogether thrilled with the "final showdown" scene at the tower itself between roland (and patrick) and the CK. i found that extremely anti-climatic and i consider it part of "the ending."

so yeah, i guess i am saying the "perfect" ending is perhaps not possible in this case, but i think he could have done a bit better.

How could it have been a bit better for you? Details please if you don't mind.

[Malice]

Honestly I was a bit suprised be the ending. I was still suprised my second time through the ending. I thought coming back to the start was an awesome way to end. But what really got me was that none of the ka-tet reached the tower. Not complaining, I agree with king. When a character is no longer needed, they are better off dead. Which he was nice enough to at least give the ka-tet a happy ending while telling Roland exactly where he could go.

I had two different ideas on who was going to reach the tower. My first one was on the basses of something Eddie and Roland though was going to happen. An all out war at the tower. I though the tet would arrive there heavily injured but still strong enough for one last stand. Where they would die but save the tower.

My other idea was that Roland was going to die and it would have been Eddie to enter the tower. I honestly did not think Roland was ever even going to see his tower. I though Eddie would reach the last room of the tower and find gan insane and have to battle him.

What did you think was going to happen?

[Candice Dionysus]

You may want to mention in the title that there's spoilers, for anyone who hasn't read the end yet.

I'm not sure I remember what I thought in regards to who would make it to the Tower. I try not to think about those kinds of things, and let them come with reading the story.

I hoped they would all make it, but as soon as Eddie kicked it, I gave up the notion of any of them actually getting there except Roland. But that was because I felt it wouldn't be right for an incomplete tet to reach the Tower. It was Roland's quest, so it was everyone or just him, to me.

[alinda]

Hi, Malicewelcome to the site! Can's absolutely right, this is a great idea for a thread but Whoa, I have to agree that a spoiler tag should be added to the title. Already in only two posts spoilers are rampid:panic:jejejejejeeje!
In answer to this question, I actually did think at the end it might just be him (Roland)
I honestly thought that there were "things" that he had to face alone, given the hard lessons he was learning on being with others. Does that make any sense? *shrug*
It's a close as I can get to off the top o'my head.

[Candice Dionysus]

I get what you're trying to say. Like he was building up the needing to learn to work as a part of a team thing so much that it would have to be only him in the end. Right?

[alinda]

Yeah, you know all that finding out how to love, figuring out
just what the cost was , and having to go it without them after all.:couple:

[Candice Dionysus]

:couple: Yeah, I get it. Makes sense, too.
I wonder how many other people thought that?

[alinda]

Ka is a wheel.....:P

[Malice]

Sorry for not posting a spolier tag. I honestly figuered anyone who would read this post would have already finished the book. I think the lessons for Roland started presenting them selves in the book right at Tull. The rooms in the tower also kind of serve as a lesson Roland must learn to complete his quest. And the voice at the top of the tower (be that of gan or Morgan Freeman...he lends his voice to everything else) tells him some of the mistakes he must learn from.

[Sickrose]

I thought all the Tet would make it because they had one last stand to make against the Crimson King and Mordred. When Eddie died I figured it would be Roland alone who would have to go and face the tower or i hoped Roland and Jake as father and son

[Brice]

Actually for this section no spoilers should be necessary.

Personally I didn't really try to figure out what would happen. I just cherished what did.

[Mark]

I thought all of them would make it, but then when Eddie died I thought only Jake and Oy, then when Jake kicked it, I thought only Roland and Oy, I assumed something would happen to Suze, possibly Mordred killing her.

I didn't like Patrick and wish he never saw the Tower.

[turtlex]

Well... I like to think that they all made it.

Roland's Call At The Tower :
I come in the name of Steven Deschain, he of Gilead!
I come in the name of Gabrielle Deschain, she of Gilead!
I come in the name of Cortland Andrus, he of Gilead!
I come in the name of Cuthbert Allgood, he of Gilead!
I come in the name of Alain Johns, he of Gilead!
I come in the name of Jamie DeCurry, he of Gilead!
I come in the name of Vannay the Wise, he of Gilead!
I come in the name of Hax the Cook, he of Gilead!
I come in the name of David the hawk, he of Gilead and the sky!
I come in the name of Susan Delgado, she of Mejis!
I come in the name of Sheemie Ruiz, he of Mejis!
I come in the name of Pere Callahan, he of Jerusalem’s Lot, and the roads!
I come in the name of Ted Brautigan, he of America!
I come in the name of Dinky Earnshaw, he of America!
I come in the name of Aunt Talitha, she of River Crossing, and will lay her cross here, as I was bid!
I come in the name of Stephen King, he of Maine!
I come in the name of Oy, the brave, he of Mid-World!
I come in the name of Eddie Dean, he of New York!
I come in the name of Susannah Dean, he of New York!
I come in the name of Jake Chambers, he of New York, whom I call my own true son!
I am Roland of Gilead, and I come as myself; you will open to me.

[cozener]

I never doubted that Roland would make it to the Tower. I also thought that the rest of the ka-tet would be killed off en route except for one. I thought Jake would make it to the end. And, before the last book, I fully expected Flagg to be at the Tower waiting for them.

[Melike]

Well... I like to think that they all made it.

Roland's Call At The Tower :
I come in the name of Steven Deschain, he of Gilead!
I come in the name of Gabrielle Deschain, she of Gilead!
I come in the name of Cortland Andrus, he of Gilead!
I come in the name of Cuthbert Allgood, he of Gilead!
I come in the name of Alain Johns, he of Gilead!
I come in the name of Jamie DeCurry, he of Gilead!
I come in the name of Vannay the Wise, he of Gilead!
I come in the name of Hax the Cook, he of Gilead!
I come in the name of David the hawk, he of Gilead and the sky!
I come in the name of Susan Delgado, she of Mejis!
I come in the name of Sheemie Ruiz, he of Mejis!
I come in the name of Pere Callahan, he of Jerusalem’s Lot, and the roads!
I come in the name of Ted Brautigan, he of America!
I come in the name of Dinky Earnshaw, he of America!
I come in the name of Aunt Talitha, she of River Crossing, and will lay her cross here, as I was bid!
I come in the name of Stephen King, he of Maine!
I come in the name of Oy, the brave, he of Mid-World!
I come in the name of Eddie Dean, he of New York!
I come in the name of Susannah Dean, he of New York!
I come in the name of Jake Chambers, he of New York, whom I call my own true son!
I am Roland of Gilead, and I come as myself; you will open to me.

Aww, Pam, it feels great to think that way. :huglove:

This may sound a little heartless but I expected Roland to reach the Tower alone.
To me, all characters were like dinamic particles of the story, except Roland, Man in Black(because of that obvious sentence in the beginning and in the end), and Crimson King which are stabile.

[SynysterSaint]

I expected Roland to make it alongside Eddie. During the whole "ka-shume" section before the battle of Algul Siento, I was so afraid for Jake. I started crying anytime they mentioned it because he was my favorite character. Because of that fear, I just assumed Jake wouldn't make it. I knew if Jake didn't, then neither would Oy, nor would Susannah. I figured at the end, it would be Roland and Eddie. I actually entertained the idea that Roland might have to sacrifice himself for the Tower while Eddie mounted the stairs to the top. The minute I saw Eddie was dead, however, I knew no one would make it except for Roland. The worst part was waiting for Jake to die. I cried almost as hard as I did for Susan.

[Malice]

.I actually entertained the idea that Roland might have to sacrifice himself for the Tower while Eddie mounted the stairs to the top

That is how I figured things would go.

[Lowmen45]

Ok, finished DT7, cant wait for 8, WitKeyhole. Ive been hearing about The little sisters, Everything Eventual is the only short story book of king i dont have, Im going to get the HC, but I heard Little Sisters is sold seperate as well in HC, true>? if so, how long is it? , and how much?.

Also, ive heard theres another story of Roland and Cuthbert chasing a werewolf, true?, unrealised?,

Are there more than this,
Are there more officially planned, eg. STated by King ?

[Brainslinger]

I thought Jake would probably make it if all the others didn't. At one point I thought Eddie would too as he seemed the closest to Roland (bar Jake), almost Roland's spiritual successor, albeit he's a very different person. However little hint by King in Song of Susannah that 'death would come between them' made me question that. (Although it could have been Roland who died instead.)

[Brainslinger]

I think Little Sisters is only available as an anthology. Even if it isn't I'd suggest getting Everything's Eventual as there are other great stories there apart from Little Sisters, including Dinky's story... the one that lends it's title to the book.

As for the story about Roland and Cuthbert chasing a werewolf, that would be The Wind Through the Keyhole which is yet to be written (if it ever is.). From what King has said, they aren't the main characters though.

[Letti]

Not complaining, I agree with king. When a character is no longer needed, they are better off dead. Which he was nice enough to at least give the ka-tet a happy ending while telling Roland exactly where he could go.

Are you talking about the ka-tet here?!?!


Sorry for not posting a spolier tag.

Don't be. At this section of the site spoiler tags are not necessary.


For my part I was sure Roland (all by himself) would find King at the top of the Tower as he was writing the sage. I hoped from the bottom of my heart it wouldn't happen.

[Brice]

I think Little Sisters is only available as an anthology. Even if it isn't I'd suggest getting Everything's Eventual as there are other great stories there apart from Little Sisters, including Dinky's story... the one that lends it's title to the book.


Little Sisters is included in-

Everything's Eventual
Legends (original appearance)
and the Grant revised titled Little Sisters of Eluria

[Jean]

I thought Jake would probably make it if all the others didn't. At one point I thought Eddie would too as he seemed the closest to Roland (bar Jake), almost Roland's spiritual successor <...> This is, by all means, a great observation. There are not many books where the spiritual successor dies, and the dinh - teacher - guru - sensei - goes on; don't think I can remember any at the drop of a hat.

[ICry4Oy]

I don't think I ever thought anyone but Roland would end up at the tower. He is such a tragic figure and his previous Ka-tet and everyone he loved had died and I always assumed his current Ka-tet would also perish.

[Brice]

Gasher

[Letti]

Gasher

:wtf:

[stone, rose, unfound door]

I never doubted that Roland would make it to the Tower. I also thought that the rest of the ka-tet would be killed off en route except for one. I thought Jake would make it to the end. And, before the last book, I fully expected Flagg to be at the Tower waiting for them.

It's funny to see we thought so alike!
From the Wastelands on I thought Jake would make it to the Tower and at some point in the story, I started doubting Roland would ever but then I knew he would see it with his own eyes like in the poem and he'd call all their names exactly like in the poem.

[Mark]

Thinking about it, I also thought Flagg would make it to the Tower, I thought he'd be waiting there for Roland.

[stone, rose, unfound door]

Thinking about it, I also thought Flagg would make it to the Tower, I thought he'd be waiting there for Roland.

Me too! I was expecting an epic battle between them and I even imagined Roland would be killed right in front of the Tower but I never thought Flagg would go in.

[Mark]

Thinking about it, I also thought Flagg would make it to the Tower, I thought he'd be waiting there for Roland.

Me too! I was expecting an epic battle between them and I even imagined Roland would be killed right in front of the Tower but I never thought Flagg would go in.

I wouldn't have thought Flagg COULD get in, thats why he had to wait for Roland.

[Jean]

Thinking about it, I also thought Flagg would make it to the Tower, I thought he'd be waiting there for Roland.

Me too! I was expecting an epic battle between them and I even imagined Roland would be killed right in front of the Tower but I never thought Flagg would go in.
I sincerely hoped none of the above would happen, and, luckily, it didn't.

[BROWNINGS CHILDE]

Yes, as we all know, bears despise action.

[Jean]

bears especially despise cliches, you know. They would be immensely disgusted to see the quest culminating in an epic battle at the foot of the Tower.

[ManOfWesternesse]

I thought that Roland and Jake (and possibly Oy) would make it to the Tower, and that Roland (and Oy) would fall there while clearing the way for Jake to enter the Tower alone.

[Letti]

I thought that Roland and Jake (and possibly Oy) would make it to the Tower, and that Roland (and Oy) would fall there while clearing the way for Jake to enter the Tower alone.

This is the first ending option I find incredibly good and beautiful.

[ManOfWesternesse]

Ha!
I was sure of it. King/Roland had let the boy fall once, i was fully sure they would not do it again - he HAD to be the one to enter the Tower!

But king is a better man than me. He COULD drop him again (& how i cried when he did), but i think he was right!

[Sickrose]

I thought that Roland and Jake (and possibly Oy) would make it to the Tower, and that Roland (and Oy) would fall there while clearing the way for Jake to enter the Tower alone.

This is the first ending option I find incredibly good and beautiful.

I agree i like this a lot - Jake would be taking over from Roland it does kind of feel right:)

[Letti]

Ha!
I was sure of it. King/Roland had let the boy fall once, i was fully sure they would not do it again - he HAD to be the one to enter the Tower!

But king is a better man than me. He COULD drop him again (& how i cried when he did), but i think he was right!

King is the wordslinger but first time since I finished the series you made me wonder if there might have been a better ending or not..

[ManOfWesternesse]

....Jake would be taking over from Roland it does kind of feel right:)
yes, that's exactly what I thought. That Jake would take up the quest in full when Roland fell, and would do whatever it was that had to be done at the Tower, and carry on from there as THE Gunslinger.


....King is the wordslinger but first time since I finished the series you made me wonder if there might have been a better ending or not..
I'm sure the same potential ending occured to others Letti, way back then when we were waiting with baited breath for the last Books. Did we have speculation threads back on .net? (BEFORE DT7) I can't recall.

Anyway, King IS the Wordslinger, and is therefore right! (he's also right because what he did WORKED!)

[Letti]

Anyway, King IS the Wordslinger, and is therefore right! (he's also right because what he did WORKED!)

I absolutely agree. :couple:

[Sickrose]

yes, that's exactly what I thought. That Jake would take up the quest in full when Roland fell, and would do whatever it was that had to be done at the Tower, and carry on from there as THE Gunslinger. Absolutely I do like this idea :)



Anyway, King IS the Wordslinger, and is therefore right! (he's also right because what he did WORKED!)You say true I say thankya

[Mark]

bears especially despise cliches, you know. They would be immensely disgusted to see the quest culminating in an epic battle at the foot of the Tower.

So by saying this, do you like the way Flagg went? It wasn't cliché in the slightest. And there was a battle of sorts, Roland shooting the sneetches that CK threw. I thought that Flagg would die on the doorstep of his lifes goal.

I also like the Jake and Roland ideas, but I don't think King could write that, it's too happy. I don't think Roland LET Jake fall again, I think Jake just fell.

[ManOfWesternesse]

...I don't think Roland LET Jake fall again, I think Jake just fell.

No, agreed.
I said King chose to drop him.

[Mark]

...I don't think Roland LET Jake fall again, I think Jake just fell.

No, agreed.
I said King chose to drop him.

Ah I see, I agree with you that it worked too, It did upset me that Jake had to die again, but Roland had to do this journey alone, and I really dislike Patrick Danville because of that.

[pathoftheturtle]

We were talking about the ending on another thread, and Sickrose said --
...the world isn't ready for the Dark Tower not that Roland needs to change or become a better person. He is flawed but so is everyone and not everyone ends up on a cycle or a spiral.

Because the world isn't ready the tower protects itself by sending Roland back to the dessert. ...
... - i mean all worlds. I see that they are all headed, in some way, to the ways of the old People who had the disastourous wars and meddled with majic.

Despite Roland saving the beam and setting up the Tet corporation they will still be threats to the DArk Tower. There needs to be a paradigm shift in progress to allow people to live side by side with majic or the unknowable. When this happens there will be no meddling with the beams or anything like this and the tower will stand unaided.

When this can happen there is no need for Roland and he can go on. It just seems hash his improvement is at such a premium when he isnt the only flawed character.

...That idea certainly is one of the big themes of the series. I wanted to point it up here because I think that an ending which somehow focused clearly on such social questions, I would have considered a more perfect ending. Risky, yes; King would have needed to be very adroit in writing to give such a moral without being accused of preachiness, but even if it hadn't been too popular, it could have made the series more vital.

[Mitchel]

I just finished book 7, thereby finishing the entire story of the Dark Tower.

I'd thought that I was going to write some long review, paying attention to certain details of things I found (and even wrote down to remember for the review). But I realize of course, that no one cares what I think. I'm just another critic, some random guy from nowhere mid-western USA. So I'll try to keep this brief (and spoiler free).

Despite the glaring errors with direction and navigation (not related to the world moving on) which I wrote about earlier, I was quite enthralled with the first 3 books. It went downhill after that. In my opinion, each subsequent book after those first three became increasingly ridiculous and more of a reach by Stephen King.

There are literally dozens of inconsistencies - glaring ones - in the final 3 books, mostly in book 7, which are an insult to the 'Constant Reader'. It's as if we are taken for stupid. That, or Stephen King's editor was half asleep during the entire editing process.

How the ending, and the approach to the ending, are handled is sadly pathetic. He really limped this story over the finish line. It's almost like he just wanted to be done, not caring what discerning readers thought, but rather focused on the horde who will swallow anything that is 'Stephen King' material.

The Dark Tower is a supreme disappointment, and I will quite likely not read Stephen King again. Never in life... and it does me fine. Of course that means I'll not have reason to post here anymore either, as I am not interested in discussing all the issues I found with DT, especially in the final books. I think that while some people might mock me for this review and call me to the carpet to ask what I found that was inconsistent and contradictory in the books, I am going to bow out anyway. This is, after all, only my opinion... and I really don't want to contribute to anyone else not enjoying the story because of what I say. No "Oh yeah" effect. It's like music. Some hear the words more than the beat, others just want the beat and don't care if they even understand the words. Some still just want the bands T-Shirts.

Take care.

[ur2ndbiggestfan]

I agree with you. I found the last three books of the series terribly dissapointing, and very difficult to read.
However, I still read King's books, because I like most of his stuff.

[gsvec]

It's like music. Some hear the words more than the beat, others just want the beat and don't care if they even understand the words. Some still just want the bands T-Shirts.
I love this analogy!

[flaggwalkstheline]

Mitchel, your's is the initial reaction of many folks upon initial completion of the series
give yourself time to digest it
The ending of DT7 is something that is complicated enough to take quite a bit of cotemplation to totally comprehend

[Jean]

The ending of DT7 is something that is complicated enough to take quite a bit of cotemplation to totally comprehend
This.

[Daghain]

I don't know. I loved the ending. I though it was perfect. *shrugs*

[Jean]

So did bears, Irish Dawn... so did bears.

[Mars Eclipse]

I don't have to many problems with the ending to be honest. I enjoy books where you can make up what happens next ^^ (Or, at least, until the author decides to finish the series.)
However, I will go a bit past the ending to explain my reasoning for not liking/liking parts of it. First off, I'm glad Susannah wasn't there to see the tower like Patrick and Roland were. Say sorry. I just don't like her.
When Oy died, I felt that the fight was disappointing. It was anticlimactic, the way that Morded died. Oy's death was pretty sad too.
When Patrick drew the Crimson King and erased his body, I had a moment of 'yay!' only to be upset when Patrick was sent away 'out of King's eyes.' The least King could have done was have Patrick show up in New York with Susannah, Eddie, and Jake. :arg:
When Roland popped back out in the desert, with no memory, I had a moment of: Oh, good, I can come up with what happens this time all by my little 'ol self. :P
So, it was okay, but I think King could have done better.

[pathoftheturtle]

I just finished book 7, thereby finishing the entire story of the Dark Tower.
...The Dark Tower is a supreme disappointment, and I will quite likely not read Stephen King again. Never in life... and it does me fine. Of course that means I'll not have reason to post here anymore either, as I am not interested in discussing all the issues I found with DT, especially in the final books. I think that while some people might mock me for this review and call me to the carpet to ask what I found that was inconsistent and contradictory in the books, I am going to bow out anyway. This is, after all, only my opinion... and I really don't want to contribute to anyone else not enjoying the story because of what I say. No "Oh yeah" effect. It's like music. Some hear the words more than the beat, others just want the beat and don't care if they even understand the words. Some still just want the bands T-Shirts.

Take care.I agree with you. I found the last three books of the series terribly dissapointing, and very difficult to read.
However, I still read King's books, because I like most of his stuff.This.

I hate to see anyone lose interest in King altogether just because of the imperfections of TDT. It's no secret that he's mostly better at anthems than ballads, but still, he has done a variety of fine work.

Also, I'm sure that you'll still be welcome here, should you change your mind about wanting to discuss. Different opinions and viewpoints make this site rock. Please don't feel pressured, either way. Respect!

[Brainslinger]

I hate to see anyone lose interest in King altogether just because of the imperfections of TDT.

I agree. The Dark Tower is rather different from all his other works after all, (The Talisman being a possible exception).

Not that I'm putting down the Dark Tower books myself. They're probably amongst my favourite King books in fact although I didn't like everything that happened necessarily and agree to some extent with Mitchel's assessment of DT7. (The very end was good though.)

[echoRacer]

I also disliked the confrontation between Roland and the CK, i always imagined the CK to be some wise old fucker who would attempt to deceive Roland before attempting to kill him, similar to Flagg in some ways, not some lunatic who screams "EEEE" at the top of his lungs.

As for the "was it possible at all to write an ending that would have been loved by everyone?" question...No, definitely not. King could never please everyone with his ending of such a long and epic series, but he wrote what most of us agree is the right ending.

However, at first i did get the "OH YOU SON OF A BITCH" feeling when i read the ending, but as i closed the book i realized i wouldn't have liked it any other way.

If Roland met some immortal God, or Dragon, or some strange ending, it would have cheapened the series.

[echoRacer]

After reading the ending, i did get the whole "OH YOU SON OF A @#@$* feeling, mostly because i didn't expect King to end the series like that at all. My countless wondering of how the series would end never resulted in a, "oh but what if he has to do it again?". I assumed Roland would meet some God and end up having to take his damned seat and be eternally chained to the Tower.
But, after closing the book and some thought, i realized that it was the RIGHT ending.
I would rather the eternal loop to some immortal dragon or God which Roland has to defeat, that kind of strange ending would have cheapened the series as a whole.
And plus, it's Stephen King, his endings are always a shocker. He is a horror writer by nature after all.

Also, i disliked the confrontation between Roland and the CK at the tower. I expected the CK to be some wise old demon who would try to deceive Roland in some way before attempting to kill him, rather than some insane old guy who screams "EEEEE" at the top of his lungs. What did that even mean?
Or, if not that, i thought it would have been more fitting to see Flagg waiting for Roland, resulting in a good old western standoff between two powerful forces. I was extremely disappointed to see him killed so cheaply by Mordred

[echoRacer]

I actually wanted Roland to meet Flagg at the Tower, and for some kind of battle to ensure. But alas, he was killed by spiderboy.
The battle with the CK, however, i despised, i thought the way the CK was portrayed, as an insane old guy who screams 'EEE', took away his evil credibility that was established throughout the series. :lol:

As for who would end up at the Tower, i thought the whole Eddie going instead of Roland was a possibility, as much as i didn't want it to be, and also Jake going instead of Roland, which i liked a whole lot better. But deep down i knew it would be Roland with the tet or Roland alone.

[echoRacer]

I felt a shiver down my spine.
No, i'm serious, i really did.
It was just brilliant; with all the endings imperfections, it just did it for me.
:rose:

[Letti]

I also disliked the confrontation between Roland and the CK, i always imagined the CK to be some wise old fucker who would attempt to deceive Roland before attempting to kill him, similar to Flagg in some ways, not some lunatic who screams "EEEE" at the top of his lungs.

I am sure the CK used to be a wise old fucker (let me use your description because I like it) but he went inside. Yes, that's it. For my part I like it. While Roland could keep his sanity and reach his goal the CK failed. He failed before he could have any battle with Roland face to face. Which tells me Roland was stronger than him.
I know many people are disappointed at the CK but I was absolutely happy with him as he was.

[Thorsig]

Alright first off I did like the ending for a few different reasons. It follows the theme of the books as "ka is a wheel". I was a bit taken back at first and didn't quite like it but after some time and a few palavers with some buddies I came around and realized that if it just ended then there wouldn't be much discussion on the topic. The ending is up to interpretation though it does push you in a direction that suggested a few different ways it could go.

First I want to say what I felt the ending was going to be. I have read the comics and the background stories before i finished book 7 and I thought that there might be some ties between the two. I always liked the lure of Arthur Eld and how he traveled to the Tower and received the sword of eld from the top. I had always thought that that symbolized the old ways of magic being taken out of the tower or its defense of itself in some way. With the power of the tower Arthur could bring peace. The sword was eventually made into the two guns of eld which became Rolands. The tower ever since the removal had started to degrade with out the sword and the world slowly changed. Now i always thought that when Roland got to the Tower he would rightfully replace the guns at the top and restore the power which the tower would then repair the world. Maybe later they would be taken by another person looking to bring peace to the lands and so the cycle begins again...

I see now that that was not how it ended but I still understand and like the way it did end. I have read a few different ideas on the ending and have accepted a few of them. My own tet came to a somewhat conclusion that Roland is slowly proving himself and growing through each cycle. This cycle he let jake fall but by the end of the journey he states that he would give up the tower if only to have is "son" back. Maybe in cycles before he was to much of a stone cold killer to believe that and so he much continue on his cycles. With his growth and compassion in this cycle Gan or the tower has given him a tool to maybe end his continuing journey.

I think the ending to his journey lies in Robert Browning's "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower came". I believe, though it may not be true and am open for debate on this, as it is said in the last two stanzas that Roland reaches the tower WITH the Horn of Eld and cries out the names of his family, friends and those he cares about. He then blows the horn and then can rest. I take this as the tower gave him the horn so he can finally end his journey.

Other ideas i have had include:
-Roland has actually died at Jericho Hill or at some other point and he his reliving this journey as he is in "hell" or his own "hell". This maybe kinda sad but as i write this Groundhogs day is on tv. Does that move remind you of anything.........only in compassion does phil break free of his cycle in the movie.
-Roland proves throughout the first half of the series how egocentric he is and will give anything (even other people's lives) to fulfill his own goal. Only through complete selfishness will he finally know rest and release.
-Maybe he is a warrior of the tower and is saving world after world from evil in a never ending journey.
-i had a few others when i began but now forget. I'll post them as i remember them.

Kinda long but not bad for my first post. Glad to join all the other DT fans out there.

I am definitely open to debate and review and gladly welcome it.

[Letti]

Other ideas i have had include:
-Roland has actually died at Jericho Hill or at some other point and he his reliving this journey as he is in "hell" or his own "hell".

Although it's very far from my thinking it's a very interesting and moving idea.

Welcome to the site. Kickass first post indeed.

[Woofer]

There are literally dozens of inconsistencies - glaring ones - in the final 3 books, mostly in book 7, which are an insult to the 'Constant Reader'. It's as if we are taken for stupid. That, or Stephen King's editor was half asleep during the entire editing process.

There were, yes, but many of those could be explained away. As we have nothing concrete listed here (and don't feel you have to list them, I'm just pointing out some alternatives), inconsistencies could range from thinnies where different worlds are bleeding into Rolands to deliberate tainting by beings from other worlds (aka levels of the tower).


How the ending, and the approach to the ending, are handled is sadly pathetic. He really limped this story over the finish line. It's almost like he just wanted to be done, not caring what discerning readers thought, but rather focused on the horde who will swallow anything that is 'Stephen King' material.

While I know some people who feel that way, I found it a refreshing change, one that hearkened back to original first book but this time pulled the audience into the action. Regarding the ending: I thought it was perfect. Given the story that had gone before, there could be no other ending.



The Dark Tower is a supreme disappointment, and I will quite likely not read Stephen King again. Never in life... and it does me fine. Of course that means I'll not have reason to post here anymore either, as I am not interested in discussing all the issues I found with DT, especially in the final books. I think that while some people might mock me for this review and call me to the carpet to ask what I found that was inconsistent and contradictory in the books, I am going to bow out anyway. This is, after all, only my opinion... and I really don't want to contribute to anyone else not enjoying the story because of what I say. No "Oh yeah" effect. It's like music. Some hear the words more than the beat, others just want the beat and don't care if they even understand the words. Some still just want the bands T-Shirts.

Take care.

I definitely wouldn't see that as a reason to never read an author again unless that was the only work you liked in the first place.



It's like music. Some hear the words more than the beat, others just want the beat and don't care if they even understand the words. Some still just want the bands T-Shirts.
I love this analogy!

I like it, too.




The ending of DT7 is something that is complicated enough to take quite a bit of cotemplation to totally comprehend
This.

It is. It's hardly a simple "What? That's it? Oh for the love of chocolate..."


I don't know. I loved the ending. I though it was perfect. *shrugs*

I'm in complete agreement. I think any other ending would feel forced and wrong. IIRC, my first thought upon finishing it was "Of course".


First off, I'm glad Susannah wasn't there to see the tower like Patrick and Roland were. Say sorry. I just don't like her.
When Oy died, I felt that the fight was disappointing. It was anticlimactic, the way that Morded died. Oy's death was pretty sad too.

I liked Susannah, but I hated the entire pregnancy storyline. That is the part that felt contrived to me. Thus, although Oy's death bothered me, I was thrilled to see Mordred get it.


When Patrick drew the Crimson King and erased his body, I had a moment of 'yay!' only to be upset when Patrick was sent away 'out of King's eyes.' The least King could have done was have Patrick show up in New York with Susannah, Eddie, and Jake. :arg:
When Roland popped back out in the desert, with no memory, I had a moment of: Oh, good, I can come up with what happens this time all by my little 'ol self. :P
So, it was okay, but I think King could have done better.

Patrick showing up was something I found contrived as well. He just happened to be pulled into this world? Really? And he just happened to be situated within sight of the Tower? Really?


Also, i disliked the confrontation between Roland and the CK at the tower. I expected the CK to be some wise old demon who would try to deceive Roland in some way before attempting to kill him, rather than some insane old guy who screams "EEEEE" at the top of his lungs. What did that even mean?
Or, if not that, i thought it would have been more fitting to see Flagg waiting for Roland, resulting in a good old western standoff between two powerful forces. I was extremely disappointed to see him killed so cheaply by Mordred

I didn't dislike it, and, in retrospect, I find it a perfectly fitting manner for the cowardly CK to fight. Regarding what Eeeeeeeee means: Have you ever been around someone with serious mental health issues? Some can, and will, vocalize in all manner of ways. I think that in CK's case it was the scream of frustration from someone who is totally and completely batshit crazy.



Other ideas i have had include:
-Roland has actually died at Jericho Hill or at some other point and he his reliving this journey as he is in "hell" or his own "hell".

Although it's very far from my thinking it's a very interesting and moving idea.

Welcome to the site. Kickass first post indeed.

What beautiful Letti said.

[echoRacer]

Regarding what Eeeeeeeee means: Have you ever been around someone with serious mental health issues? Some can, and will, vocalize in all manner of ways. I think that in CK's case it was the scream of frustration from someone who is totally and completely batshit crazy..

I didn't consider that before...thank you for clarifying.

[CrimsonMordred]

Yes, this is the end to this journey, however! According to the poem, Roland's entire journey actually ends on his 5th coming to the Dark Tower. In that case... it's up to you to decide on an ending.

[Mars Eclipse]

lol, Woofer gets it!
Patrick is awesome, don't get me wrong, but he seemed like an easy way out for Roland.
And I agree with the pregnancy thing.

[CrimsonMordred]

One thing I seriously didn't like about the ending is that there WAS NO BEAST IN FRONT OF THE TOWER! And yes, the easy way out was very cheap. But I would say it could have been almost beyond his ability to draw if its detail was far too great! That would have been cool if he used the right kind of beast. I also hated the Harry Potter sneeches.... why would the most powerful wizard imaginable throw sneeches?!

However, I am quite cool with the open ending, it makes it easy to come up with the next journey that Roland makes.

[Woofer]

lol, Woofer gets it!
Patrick is awesome, don't get me wrong, but he seemed like an easy way out for Roland.
And I agree with the pregnancy thing.

Exactly.


One thing I seriously didn't like about the ending is that there WAS NO BEAST IN FRONT OF THE TOWER! And yes, the easy way out was very cheap. But I would say it could have been almost beyond his ability to draw if its detail was far too great! That would have been cool if he used the right kind of beast. I also hated the Harry Potter sneeches.... why would the most powerful wizard imaginable throw sneeches?!

However, I am quite cool with the open ending, it makes it easy to come up with the next journey that Roland makes.

I agree. Mostly. I'd like to see it, I don't know, materialize or something because the action of anyone approaching the tower triggered it.

[CrimsonMordred]

Rowsdower... can you put out my head?

[Honkmafah]

I just finished the series for the first time - Absolutely loved it. I was reeled in from the very beginning and couldn't put it down. In fact I've already started the series back over.

I was fine with the ending. Obviously there are questions to be answered but overall it was a decent ending.

I think Susannah got off easy, though. Then again I'm not a big fan of hers.

[MonteGss]

AND.....she threw Roland's gun away. :cry:

[SynysterSaint]

AND.....she threw Roland's gun away. :cry:

I always hated Susannah, and I could never figure out why; I realized my reasons as soon as she threw away Roland's gun.

[Kronz]

But it turned into a prop and just like the kids from It, she won't even know she was involved in the story (or what's different with the new Eddie and Jake) within a short period of time. That's how I read it anyway.

She did maybe get off the hook a little too easy, but we needed at least one person with Roland near the end, he'd have died on Odd's Lane otherwise.

[MonteGss]

Yes, we remember what happened to the gun when she went through the doorway but that doesn't make throwing it away any less sad.

[Kronz]

I just don't think it's sad. Presumably Roland has both again shortly after, no?

[Honkmafah]

Glad to know I'm not the only one who didn't like Susannah.

I think I would have liked her fine if, after she became Susannah, the annoying Detta personality would have disappeared forever. When she slipped into Detta mode, it grated my nerves to no end.

[Letti]

I just don't think it's sad. Presumably Roland has both again shortly after, no?

So if your loved one throws away your wedding ring and you find it later it doesn't mean anything sad?

[Kronz]

I don't know. But it's funny you should mention that because my wife DID lose her wedding ring and no one's found it yet. :(

[Letti]

Losing it and throwing it into a dustbin are very different.

[Kronz]

I just don't think it's sad that she threw away the gun. If she'd lived by the gun and gone on to the Tower, she'd have died from a sneetch or something since there was no way anyone but Roland was going inside (as far as I can tell). So by choosing to throw away the gun she gets liberated and her life away from violence and the quest doesn't need the brutal reminder that she's seen nearly all her friends die. She doesn't need to remember the guns. Roland's personal relationship with Susannah isn't so strong that I got much of a sad parting vibe. I found the scene incredibly touching and was moved by it, but not at all because of the gun, but because her reunion or meeting with the new Jake and Eddie was just lovely. Even though these books are among my favorites I don't like guns very much I guess.

[Brainslinger]

I found the scene incredibly touching and was moved by it, but not at all because of the gun, but because her reunion or meeting with the new Jake and Eddie was just lovely.

I don't like to think that I'm sentimental (which doesn't mean that I'm not, by the way), but I loved that scene too. Just.. .magical. I wasn't all that keen on her throwing away the gun though, even though it was useless. I think in her shoes* I'd have chosen to keep it, even if it just ended up in a drawer at home somewhere. (Mind you I'd find the object fascinating in itself even without the memory surrounding it, but then... I'm a bloke.)

However, I did get the impression that she threw it away because she was meant to. Just like she was meant to go through that doorway.

*Ooh, the irony. You know what I mean.

[Brice]

Yes, we remember what happened to the gun when she went through the doorway but that doesn't make throwing it away any less sad.

If it makes you feel any better, Monte I have it now.

[Woofer]

And remember, when you finish The Dark Tower, be sure to celebrate with an ice cold Nozz-a-la, the cola that picks you up and doesn't let you down.

Website: www.nozzala.com

Contact By Mail:
The Nozz-a-la Company
1900 19th Ave
Brooklyn, NY 11204

Tee shirt:
http://images8.cafepress.com/product/14192118v0_480x480_Front_Color-White.jpg

[pathoftheturtle]

...I'd have chosen to keep it, even if it just ended up in a drawer at home somewhere...Yeah, it's always smart to keep an unlicensed handgun lying in with your personal effects.

[SynysterSaint]

But it turned into a prop and just like the kids from It, she won't even know she was involved in the story (or what's different with the new Eddie and Jake) within a short period of time. That's how I read it anyway.

Just throwing this out there: I haven't read It yet.

[MonteGss]

However, I did get the impression that she threw it away because she was meant to. Just like she was meant to go through that doorway.



I just reread the scene and I can see how you could get that impression. It seems as if Susannah is hearing Roland's voice in her head, perhaps urging her to do it..?

I would add that even Susannah felt it was sad that she threw away the gun, thinking that it "hurts her heart."

[Kronz]

But it turned into a prop and just like the kids from It, she won't even know she was involved in the story (or what's different with the new Eddie and Jake) within a short period of time. That's how I read it anyway.

Just throwing this out there: I haven't read It yet.

well I don't think I spoiled anything too badly, sorry...you'll find out what I meant within half an hour of picking up the novel, which I am sure you are planning on doing any day now right? :)

[Woofer]

But it turned into a prop and just like the kids from It, she won't even know she was involved in the story (or what's different with the new Eddie and Jake) within a short period of time. That's how I read it anyway.

Just throwing this out there: I haven't read It yet.

well I don't think I spoiled anything too badly, sorry...you'll find out what I meant within half an hour of picking up the novel, which I am sure you are planning on doing any day now right? :)

Don't forget to read the spoiler guidelines for each forum. A good rule of thumb is if it involves an end or a character's death, spoiler it. Also, we have two spoiler options here: one that just uses spoiler tags and another that allows you to add the name of the work being spoilered (Yeah, yeah. I know.)

{cast 'wipe memory' SynysterSaint}

http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo194/TheCuteWoofer/Wolves/groupwolfhug-1.jpg

[Brice]

I'd say that's a spoiler only by the most extreme definitions of the term. It is something you could expect to see in just a very brief synopsis of the story.

[Woofer]

Great! Now you've spoilered that it wasn't much of a spoiler!

[Brice]

:rofl:

[SynysterSaint]

well I don't think I spoiled anything too badly, sorry...you'll find out what I meant within half an hour of picking up the novel, which I am sure you are planning on doing any day now right? :)

That's fine; it's not a problem. It was just a subtle reminder to [tag] anything you're not entirely certain of. I had no idea if it was a big part of the plot or not, but it seemed like it might have been. I was afraid to look online to see if it was or not lol

[MonteGss]

bump, to get thread back on track




However, I did get the impression that she threw it away because she was meant to. Just like she was meant to go through that doorway.



I just reread the scene and I can see how you could get that impression. It seems as if Susannah is hearing Roland's voice in her head, perhaps urging her to do it..?

I would add that even Susannah felt it was sad that she threw away the gun, thinking that it "hurts her heart."

[Brice]

:nope: Even an imaginary Roland in her mind wouldn't tell her to throw away those guns.

[pathoftheturtle]

I don't remember if I ever posted to declare, but I voted here for option #2 -- "not satisfied, although there are things I liked about the ending ." One thing I liked is the openness in the very nature of it. I don't think that TDT is really all done.

[MonteGss]

:nope: Even an imaginary Roland in her mind wouldn't tell her to throw away those guns.

After rereading the scene, I can certainly see how one could think that though.
:(

[Brice]

Imaginary Roland would send her west after making her cry pardon! :angry:

Oh, I can see it, but :nope: I don't believe it.

[Sickrose]

The throwing away of the gun has always bothered me - it just seemed so sad. A gun from the line of Eld just being thrown into a bin! The guns are part of the white surely and throwing them away seems wrong.

However on my second reading her saying ''it hurt her heart'' made me not quite so sad (and a little angry) about the guns being thrown away. I guess she had to get rid because they wouldnt work and she is no longer a working gunslinger. As much as this makes sense I still dont like it. However, when roland says tht he is glad she has it in case she ends up in Todash darkness it eased it a bit.

I hate the scene where she leaves Roland and think this is much of why I dont like her!! Throwing away the gun shows disdain for the line of eld and the ways of gunslingers.

[pathoftheturtle]

...Eddie laughed, although now the tears were coursing down his cheeks. "Oh, wonderful. Wonderful! Just what I need! My brother Henry. He was a gunslinger. In a place called Viet Nam, that was. It was great for him. ..."
~ DT II:| Don't get me wrong, I don't think that Steven Deschain (or John Kennedy) were all wrong... but it's so damned easy to lose focus. As Callahan might say, "Behold the paradox!" Symbols can serve the White, but no symbol can BE the White.
No offense meant. Here's another DoTT quote which I think is close to where you guys are coming from:
"... They are as they are because they live in the light, the gunslinger thought suddenly. That light of civilization you were taught to adore above all other things. They live in a world which has not moved on.
If this was what people became in such a world, Roland was not sure he didn't prefer the dark. 'That was before the world moved on,' people said in his own world, and it was always said in tones of bereft sadness ... but it was, perhaps, sadness without thought, without consideration."There is a point in there that I believe actually is valid, to a certain degree. Most people are naturally prone to carelessness. Thoughtlessness. I don't worry about Susannah, though.
I take a different meaning from that scene.
"Down in Alabama, 1955,
Not many of us here tonight were then alive;
A young Baptist preacher led a bus boycott,
He led the way for a brand new day without firing a shot.

Don’t say it can’t be done
The battle’s just begun
Take it from Dr. King
You too can learn to sing
So drop the gun.
..."
~ Pete Seeger

[BigSchu22]

Hello everyone, this is my first post to the site, so bear with me for probably a long first post. First off, just wanted to say that I love the DT series. I actually started reading with book 2 that I randomly found in the ship's library during a deployment many years ago. I was instantly hooked even though I was missing some back story from book 1. I began reading with book 1 and have read all 7 now this past year, so book 2 twice now.

I've been reading most of the posts in this thread and I have to say, like many others, that the ending is probably the right ending and as much as it frustrated me, I too felt that it was the right ending. I knew for a couple of books before 7 that Roland would probably end up repeating his quest as he does seem to be ancient.

Anyway, I felt that while the ending was appropriate, it felt a bit rushed and not as fulfilling as it could have been. Here are my thoughts:

First, I didn't like the whole pregnancy saga. When Susannah was first raped by the demon in the speaking circle, I suspected it might lead to a demon child, but not in the form of a CK/Roland/spirit from Discordia hybrid. It seemed too contrived and somehow, suspension of disbelief aside, even though it was explained logically and reasonably, it just didn't seem plausible. It seemed like a James Bond villian plot, to save the sperm from the oracle, somehow knowing that Roland would couple with it, etc., etc. Also, with all the buildup through book 5/6, Mordred dies almost too clumsily and easily... so much for CK's master plan. It was as if King ran out of ideas for the character, and as King himself admits in book 6 or 7, sometimes authors kill characters they don't know what to do with. Which brings to mind the Tick-tock man. His character was introduced somewhat elaborately in book 3 with Jake's capture in Lud... Flagg saves his life and I thought he would serve some great purpose later on in another book, except in book 4 he randomly dies in the Emerald Palace, like King lost where he was going to go with him.

Two, Flaggs death was extremely disappointing. The whole is he mortal or not mystique erased so easily. Why would an agent of the CK (Mordred) kill one of the CK's best Lieutenants? Or why would CK let his son kill one of his best Lieutenants, a guy who has literally brought down many of the other worlds, not to mention mid-world. It just didn't seem appropriate to end Flagg so easily after so much mystique about Flagg, the wizards, etc. throughout the novels.

Third, on a side note, do the wizards glasses remind you guys of the polantias (SP?) from LotR? I know that was an influence on King anyway. CK destorys the remaining wizard's glasses when he runs from his castle... did that annoy anyone else? I know he knew his plans were going awry, thanks to Roland, and if he couldn't have them he didn't want anyone else to either, but could he not have used them as a weapon against Roland (as with the grapefruit) at the tower instead of sneetches?

Fourth, I did like the character of Patrick, but as mentioned in earlier posts, his drawing into mid-world at the foot of tower road seems a little too convenient as with his ability to create or erase anything he draws, I knew that was how the CK would die and was glad for it, but it seemed all too easy for Roland's last trial before reaching the tower.

Fifth, If Roland can't remember any of his previous iterations in the DT quest loop, how can he ever learn or change his behaviour except through some sort of instinct or intuition. The whole loop thing brings up another point, if Roland is constantly repeating his quest, no matter how different it is each time through, then he always saves the beams and the towers. So, does that mean the tower or the beams is ever really in danger at all? If Roland has saved the tower/beams countless times before, it sort of cheapens the journey because he always does it and there's no consequences because he'll just do it again. What if he doesn't succeed in one of the iterations? Would the loop end with the end of the universe?

Sixth, Susannah's happy ending... I'm all for happy endings, but it didn't feel right to me. Throwing away a gun of Eld bothered me as well. I thought maybe she would keep it, saving it for a day she might need to return to mid-world or be drawn into it or at least just incase the agents of the CK were on her train again. Also, why would the gun change to the plugged version... they had brought them to worlds before with no such effects, perhaps it was what she thought when she went through the door, somehow she knew she was going to her new life and knew she could leave that part of her behind, but I still didn't like it. I also hated Susannah, she seemed to be much more of a liability than an aid at times, especially in Detta mode.

Seventh, why wouldn't Susannah go to the keystone world, why would she go to one of the worlds on another arc of the beam or level of the tower? Wouldn't there be versions of Eddy and Jake in the keystone world? When Eddy and Jake died I was thinking that somehow they would restore the Tet by drawing a Jake and Eddy from another world or from the keystone world, forming an even stronger Tet maybe. If she went back to the keystone world she could have her happy ending, reunite with Eddy and Jake, and possibly continue to protect the tower/rose working with the Tet corporation. In addition, Jake and Eddy were brothers in that world... Jake was adopted maybe? Seems a bit of a stretch.

Eigth, I felt like there were some hints towards the end of book 7 of a relationship between Roland and Susannah. I remember Roland thinking something about Susannah in book 6 I believe. Susannah makes a few references about Roland that make it seem like they might have been going toward a Roland/Susannah relationship. I know it would be a slap in the face to Eddy, but their union could have possibly resulted in a true son for Roland and a white counterpart to the red Mordred with Mordred taking CK's place and Susannah/Roland son taking Roland's place leading to a much greater confrontation between the two siblings later on.

Ninth, I've read a lot of King before and I know he doens't always explain a lot of things, which is good because it lets you imagine what you want without exactly codifying what things should be. However, I was hoping for more explanation about North Central Positronics/La Merc and other subsidiaries. What their relationship was to the tower and the beams, the cyborg guardians they created, etc. What exactly was going on there... I know there is some explanation with the magic versus science with the much more perfect magic doors and the poor scientific doors created by NCP, but I thought there could have been more elaboration about the beams or the scientific aspects of the tower or something. I was intrigued by the station at the start of the bear/turtle beam in book 3 with the yellow and black lines, I just wish there was more explanation behind them I guess.

Tenth, what will happen to black 13? It's only safe until 2001 I think. How will Roland's repeating loop iterations affect all the timelines in the other worlds, does everything in every world reset? Does the world keep moving on around Roland even though his quest restarts?

Last, I think, just always wondered about the exact relationship between mid-world and the keystone world other than the twin aspect, is mid-world our world many thousand years in the future or did mid-world advance much faster than our own world, it's just a little confusing given all the references to it being a later when of our world since NCP is in the keystone world, but not as powerful yet. I think the brain machines in book 6 or 7, where the kids from the calla go at the arc 16 experimental station, mention that they have been doing things since the ten thousands, so it leads me to believe that the great old ones were at least 8 thousand years more advanced than we are in the keystone world, and obviously would have to be to invent telepathic machines and robots.

Oh, the CK himself... I was expecting a bit more than a crazy old man throwing sneetches. Again, a lot of mystique surrounding this character throughout the novels and even in other novels, such as Insomnia. Extremely anti-climactic when we get to his castle and to finally meeting him at the tower. He commands vampires, low men, can toi, etc. in countless worlds, established a network of corporations and influences in countless worlds, and engineered the downfall of many... yet we get an old man in red throwing sneetches. Doesn't seem like the guy Bango Skank would wish to hail nor the dark and demonic influence he should have been. Hmm, just expected more from the notorious Crimson King.

So, this was extremely long, just some thoughts about the ending and thanks for reading. DT is amazing and I was glad to read it and will again, just some thoughts.

[pathoftheturtle]

Welcome! Many of your points are addressed on other threads in this forum. I hope you enjoy looking around, and we'll hopefully have other discussions. Here & Now..
...why would the gun change to the plugged version... Ka.
...What if he doesn't succeed in one of the iterations? Would the loop end with the end of the universe? ...
Good question.

... If Roland can't remember any of his previous iterations in the DT quest loop, how can he ever learn or change his behaviour except through some sort of instinct or intuition. ...
This is very interesting. We usually associate morality with conscious thought. It could be that our normal thinking is not as crucial at is assumed by our normal thinking, but it's certainly worth considering what that might mean to TDT.

[pathoftheturtle]

Gee, I was hoping that someone would contribute more to this by now. Oh, well. Here’s one possible interpretation: It’s a basic tenet of Judeo-Christian culture that mankind received the Bible through Divine revelation so that we’d at least know what we should do well enough to make informed choices. Of course, many people don’t believe that, which is compounded by the fact that those who do still disagree over numerous points as religious sects. Thus, SK may feel that all of us are, like Roland, expected to guess, and then judged by God.
Personally, I’ve never considered that element of the DT ending to be particularly realistic, but I’m not very agnostic.

[Brice]

I'd submit that you either are agnostic or you are not. There are not really degrees with such a thing. :lol:

[pathoftheturtle]

There are, though. Really. One may be a fully committed theist, a confident atheist, or anywhere in between. Few people actually have any extreme assurance.

[Brice]

I know what you mean, but an agnostic believes things are essentially unknowable and there aren't really degrees of that. Something is either knowable or it is not. There are numerous shades or denominations within all other points of view be it theist, atheist, etc..., but I still must maintain that one is either completely agnostic or not agnostic. One must'nt doubt their doubt, ya' know? :lol:

[pathoftheturtle]

Yar. Technically, I should have said "I'm not very close to becoming agnostic." I knew that you'd know what I meant, but on behalf of those less familiar with the subject, thanks for clarifying.

[pathoftheturtle]

But just for the record, even though I'm not "very agnostic," I do think I'm pretty Zen.

[Brice]

Okay, I wasn't clarifying really. I was a bit mixed up myself. It happens...quite a lot actually. :lol:

[killboi]

Just completed the series, guys!! And i found the ending completely acceptable if not memorable...But was surprised by the contempt shown by Stephen King in the afterword. Dunno who he is pissed at...

[pathoftheturtle]

I agree. It's palpably adequate.

IMO, SK was just uptight because his chosen career is not all sunshine.

[Brainslinger]

Just completed the series, guys!! And i found the ending completely acceptable if not memorable...But was surprised by the contempt shown by Stephen King in the afterword. Dunno who he is pissed at...

If you're referring to the 'know me through my work' stuff I don't think he intended to be contemptuous. I think maybe some fans were also becoming a bit of a nuisance invading his privacy. Also bear in mind he was going through a rough patch at the time still in pain from his accident. (I think.)

[pathoftheturtle]

Oh, yes, that's very true. Some had gone far beyond being "a bit of a nuisance." I don't mean to trivialize King's problems. (although there's an up-side as well + many other people also go through trials about as bad.) I thought that we were talking about the "I'd end it here" stuff written earlier on.

[LovesSweetExile]

(Do apologize, can't get the spoiler thing to work, if you haven't read the series, then DO NOT read on)

So we all know the point of the story, Roland finds the horn, repeats his quest blah blah blah finally does everything 'right' and finds redemption...so, what then?

Are we meant to believe that Rolands quest has nothing to do with saving 'everything' but just a personal gain?

The Tower doesn't want to be saved? Gan doesn't care either way? as long as Roland finds redemption, then everything's fine and dandy? sorry, but no, thats ridiculous, unless you take the side story of SK himself being Gan or Gans secretary seriously (implying that it really was all just fiction, nothing before the events of the mohaine desert actually occurred) why wouldn't Gan or the Tower take more serious steps to help itself and help Roland save the Tower? If the Tower is falling, why in gods name would it take its own resources, magic and energy to waste on torturing Roland by looping his quest over and over? IT DOESN"T MAKE SENSE !

I had to take the ending with a pinch of salt, but if we're all honest, can't we agree that we find the ending made no sense whatsoever and was thoroughly confusing and disappointing?

[Brainslinger]

I think he always saves the Tower. That's his ka, if you like. It is suggested that he has been doing this numerous times before even this cycle.

The Tower/Gan, being the centre of space and time probably knows this when he/it sends him back.

[LovesSweetExile]

Yeah but he never saves the Tower does he? even Mia said it was almost impossible, but by only using magic, and since most of the magic is gone, the Tower really can't be saved by Humans, not by slow mutants or the demons of the prim, so how can it be his ka to constantly save something that has never been saved?

[ur2ndbiggestfan]

I actually don't remember what the reason was (if any), why Roland had to start all over again. But I do know I found the ending highly unsatisfactory (to put it extremely mildly), as I also found the last three of the Dark Tower books. I read The Worm Ouroborus back in high school, it was done once, and I don't think it should have been done again.

I loved the first four books of the series, even re-reading them a few times, but those last three, let me use a literary term here - yech!

[Jake_S]

Roland had to perform the quest again because he did have the Horn of Eld. Remember the series is based on the epic poem "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came". There is a line in the poem that mentions Roland blowing his horn upon his arrival at the tower. When Roland reached the tower he did nto have the horn since it fell with Cuthbert in battle.

Here are the last stanza's of the poem and the last line mentions Roland blowing the horn.

What in the midst lay but the Tower itself?
The round squat turret, blind as the fool’s heart,
Built of brown stone, without a counter-part
In the whole world. The tempest’s mocking elf
Points to the shipman thus the unseen shelf
He strikes on, only when the timbers start.

Not see? because of night perhaps?—Why, day
Came back again for that! before it left,
The dying sunset kindled through a cleft:
The hills, like giants at a hunting, lay,
Chin upon hand, to see the game at bay,—
“Now stab and end the creature—to the heft!”

Not hear? when noise was everywhere! it toll’d
Increasing like a bell. Names in my ears
Of all the lost adventurers my peers,—
How such a one was strong, and such was bold,
And such was fortunate, yet each of old
Lost, lost! one moment knell’d the woe of years.

There they stood, ranged along the hill-sides, met
To view the last of me, a living frame
For one more picture! in a sheet of flame
I saw them and I knew them all. And yet
Dauntless the slug-horn to my lips I set,
And blew “Childe Roland to the Dark Tower came.”

[Jake_S]

I do agree with you both on the ending. It was very haphazard and not a worthy ending for what I consider a marvelous collection

Jake

[Brainslinger]

Yeah but he never saves the Tower does he?

I thought you were referring to the Tower putting itself back in danger by sending Roland back.

Of course he saves it before that happens! That happened when they stopped the breakers! He wouldn't be sent back otherwise as there would be nothing to do the sending. It came pretty close, but it was strongly stated that once the breakers stopped attacking the Beam the beams would regenerate themselves over time. They still have a long way to go, but Roland saw an improvement on the way to the Tower. I don't think the magic ever left the world completely. The rising of industrialism and materialism certainly had a damaging affect, but the ka-tet, the few standing true did a lot to sway the difference in my mind.

As for Mia, while she says a lot of interesting things concerning the nature of the multi-verse she doesn't know everything and had a tendency towards pessimism.

[LovesSweetExile]

Yeah I know what you mean, but it still doesn't make any sense the Tower would keep looping him, unless, when it very first happened, the first time the Tower was saved, perhaps Gan wouldn't let Roland move to the end of the clearing unless he proved himself worthy? hmmm, but isn't wanting to save the Tower worthy enough cause?

[Brainslinger]

Yeah I know what you mean, but it still doesn't make any sense the Tower would keep looping him, unless, when it very first happened, the first time the Tower was saved, perhaps Gan wouldn't let Roland move to the end of the clearing unless he proved himself worthy? hmmm, but isn't wanting to save the Tower worthy enough cause?

Not if he did it with the wrong attitude. I.e. did he save the Tower because he wanted to save the whole of creation, or did he save it just so he could go to the top and see what is there?

I think actually it was a bit of both, but there seems to be a great emphasis on the latter as shown in his palaver with the folks of the Tet corporation. Also he entered the tower leaving a gun, the sigul of the closer of doors and the entrance instead of blowing the horn (which he had effectively cast aside).

I see the horn and the gun as being two necessary but thematically opposing parts of what it is to be a gunslinger. The Gun represents the killing side. The horn represents reliance and ka-tet (I.e. you blow a horn as a rallying call to bring others to your aid.)

I think he learnt a lot this cycle round. He learnt to rely on his ka-mates and learnt to love again, but he still entered the Tower with only the sigul of death. He still has a long way to go. (That's not to say having the horn oo-er will be enough next time, but it's a step up.)

[Bev Vincent]

My take: He saves the Tower by freeing the Breakers. He rids Mid-World of an insane and powerful schemer by reaching the Tower and defeating the Crimson King. At that point, his job is done -- he should turn away and find something else to do for the rest of his life. I always imagined him going back to the Calla and hooking up with Rosalita. His fatal error every time is to have the gumption to go into the Tower. To presume that he can know the unknowable. Hubris gets him every time, so far.

[Sickrose]

My take: He saves the Tower by freeing the Breakers. He rids Mid-World of an insane and powerful schemer by reaching the Tower and defeating the Crimson King. At that point, his job is done -- he should turn away and find something else to do for the rest of his life. I always imagined him going back to the Calla and hooking up with Rosalita. His fatal error every time is to have the gumption to go into the Tower. To presume that he can know the unknowable. Hubris gets him every time, so far.

I like this idea, a lot. It hadn't occurred to me before, but it does make sense. If he doesnt go up the tower - why would he - then he wont be sent back. He can still about himself etc

I have always thought, Roland is sent back, not just to find redemption and pick up the horn but because the tower isnt safe in the world as it is. He may have got rid of the breakers, but the world Eddie etc came from looks like it will still go the way of the old ones with the nuclear weapons that destryed the world. Instead of trying to find the reason for everything, the world should live side by side with majic or unknowable. Till this happens, the tower isnt safe and Roland goes back. Maybe if Edie had ben the only one standing and had gone up the tower, maybe he would be sent back?

[Bev Vincent]

To me, picking up the horn is part of his "redemption." It's a sign that he's a slightly better incarnation of himself. His eye isn't so much on the big prize in the distance that he doesn't notice the small but important things going on around him.

[Canada]

I always thought (and this is wishful thinking because it just makes more sense to me like this) that when Roland was "sent back" as it were, the world he ventured into would be different this time around. Major things like Lud, Sombra, and the Crimson King would remain constant, but perhaps his tet would consist of different people, they would come across completely different towns, Mordred wouldn't be born, etc. because the actual Multi-Verse never "reset". Roland is simply "Held" until a time when he can be "reset" himself and plunged back into the world. The multi-verse is most likely cyclical, and very very old, and Roland just keeps getting reset and put back later and later in the Multiverse's life. That would be why he has to keep saving the tower, maybe in the next cycle it won't be from breakers, but something else will be threatening it.

I feel like Roland is the tower's constant champion, always saving it, yet never saving himself. Gan is trying to "reward" Roland by giving him all these chances to redeem himself (yeah I know, a crappy reward, but bear with me.) because when he's redeemed he can die and then go to the multiverses' version of heaven, instead of hell. (As a side note, this also means that, yes, I think Roland can indeed be killed by his enemies at any time during any "loop" and since he has not redeemed himself, would go to hell. Plus, that theory just makes him seem that much cooler since that means he's gone through an undefined number of huge quests without dying.)

So...TLDR: Roland has to keep saving the tower from new dangers, and Gan is trying to "reward" him with redemption.

Or,

Roland is simply dead and in hell, because as we can see from Everything's Eventual, in that short story about the catholic woman who died on that airplane and has to keep reliving driving around in a car with her husband,( lol, forgot the actual name of the story, sorry), King pretty much says (pretty sure in the afterword) he always thought of hell as a place where people repeat certain parts of their lives forever. But then that would mean we read a 7 book saga about something that never happened or mattered, and that's not something I want to think about, lol.

[Brainslinger]

I always thought (and this is wishful thinking because it just makes more sense to me like this) that when Roland was "sent back" as it were, the world he ventured into would be different this time around. Major things like Lud, Sombra, and the Crimson King would remain constant, but perhaps his tet would consist of different people, they would come across completely different towns, Mordred wouldn't be born, etc.

Concerning the tet mates (and I know your post wasn't primarily about that) I actually think he always pulls the same people. Or at least versions of them, possibly from other worlds. I remember a particular passage where Roland considers the fact that nothing but death can break Ka-tet. He then goes on to say that Cort thought not even death would...

That suggests to me it will always be the same people and also explains the deja-vu the others experience later in the series. It might also explain what happened to the keystone version of Susannah and Jake since our versions are not from that world.

Anyhoo... sorry a bit off topic, but all related to the loop etc. And I think his trust in his ka-tet are key to his redemption, something he figured out this loop, hence his reward of the horn.

[pathoftheturtle]

...Or,

Roland is simply dead and in hell... But then that would mean we read a 7 book saga about something that never happened or mattered, and that's not something I want to think about, lol.Why not? Because it would equal a waste of the precious time of us who are alive and do matter? :orely:
So we all know the point of the story, Roland finds the horn, repeats his quest blah blah blah finally does everything 'right' and finds redemption...so, what then?

Are we meant to believe that Rolands quest has nothing to do with saving 'everything' but just a personal gain?

The Tower doesn't want to be saved? Gan doesn't care either way? as long as Roland finds redemption, then everything's fine and dandy? sorry, but no, thats ridiculous, unless you take the side story of SK himself being Gan or Gans secretary seriously (implying that it really was all just fiction, nothing before the events of the mohaine desert actually occurred) why wouldn't Gan or the Tower take more serious steps to help itself and help Roland save the Tower? If the Tower is falling, why in gods name would it take its own resources, magic and energy to waste on torturing Roland by looping his quest over and over? IT DOESN"T MAKE SENSE !

I had to take the ending with a pinch of salt, but if we're all honest, can't we agree that we find the ending made no sense whatsoever and was thoroughly confusing and disappointing?Have you read The Colorado Kid?

Roland sets out on his quest because he believes that there may be something fundamentally wrong with creation. Are we supposed to believe that the only real problem is this idea of his? Not necessarily. Does it make sense for Gan to deal with him in this way? Not really. I think that was intentional. I believe that King indeed knows well enough how to write a proper romantic epic, where order is restored and heroes reach their just rewards. However, what he chooses is to write horror. I myself happen to believe that all the problems of life do have rational solutions, but I realize that not everyone shares my religion. Some actually find real life to be thoroughly confusing and disappointing. What I think is that what King thinks is that this depiction of things is truer to the actual contradictions he sees in real experience than are most other myths. What we have, in Roland’s Horn, is intimation that God just might have taken care of absolutely everything, but probably has not.
To me, picking up the horn is part of his "redemption." It's a sign that he's a slightly better incarnation of himself. His eye isn't so much on the big prize in the distance that he doesn't notice the small but important things going on around him.Important from our small perspective. The question (for Roland) is what objective validity that has. If there is a nexus of size, so that the chaos of the subatomic serves a purpose relevant to human-level values, yet that purpose is unknowable, then what difference does it make? I've heard some say that the Crimson King continues to exist because there must be evil, always. That's horrible. Are we made to suffer? What is redemption, what is its value? Can one even know, ever? Why not? Can one even ask, or is the very concept of meaning simply meaningless? Is the unexamined life the best that we can hope for?

[Seneschal]

i suppose this is a more appropriate place for a post i made earlier, though as we know from the dark tower it's all connected anyway.

but i digresss.... i maintain that once the tower/keystone world is saved once, it is saved infinitely. the fact that keystone world cannot deviate from linear time is the "key" to saving the tower itself. it is said more than once that the rose in the vacant lot of keystone world actually IS the dark tower, not merely a representation of it like in other worlds (hence the reason destroying the rose in the keystone world would bring an end to all things...) once roland saves it once, it is just SAVED. time only moves forward in that world, the one that matters. every iteration of the loop--through all world, mid world, and end world where roland is on his quest--is merely another alternate reality, one step further away from the actual occurrence of him saving the tower (and all the incidents that led to that end).

at least, this is how i sleep at night.

[pathoftheturtle]

... take it a step forward...theoretically, the loop we saw may not truly have even been the time that he actually saved the keystone/tower.Or another step forward ... there may not truly have even been any keystone tower which needed to be saved at all. :orely:

[Seneschal]

If there is a nexus of size, so that the chaos of the subatomic serves a purpose relevant to human-level values, yet that purpose is unknowable, then what difference does it make? I've heard some say that the Crimson King continues to exist because there must be evil, always. That's horrible. Are we made to suffer? What is redemption, what is its value? Can one even know, ever? Why not? Can one even ask, or is the very concept of meaning simply meaningless? Is the unexamined life the best that we can hope for?

these questions, really dig way deeper than merely the dark tower obviously.

the part where we all get tripped up is rooted in the human condition of having to define good and evil. yin and yang, white and black (or red in this case), are nothing more than our own definitions based on experience. there's only a such thing as the word daylight because there is a darkness. but to say which one is good and which one is evil is an exercise in futility, as both simply ARE. they cannot exist without the other.

think of it like this, if the wind blew all the time and at the same speed forever, we wouldn't need to define it any further. people would never say, "its windy today!" no one would get annoyed with the wind, you would think someone crazy for even talking about the wind. boat trips would never be cancelled, certain places would always be cold, and hats would likely all have straps on them. who knows, maybe its always blowing at 140mph, but having known no different our perception about it would be a far cry from what it is currently. the good vs. evil question is the other side of that same coin. we have things that we define as "this is good" and "this is bad". but ultimately, it all comes down to our perception of events on a daily basis, and what we allow to happen within our own little world. some events, with or without our judgement of them, will happen anyway. (ie, devastating hurricanes are not evil, they just are).

[Seneschal]

... take it a step forward...theoretically, the loop we saw may not truly have even been the time that he actually saved the keystone/tower.Or another step forward ... there may not truly have even been any keystone tower which needed to be saved at all. :orely:

precisely!

..and my brain hurts.

[pathoftheturtle]

If there is a nexus of size, so that the chaos of the subatomic serves a purpose relevant to human-level values, yet that purpose is unknowable, then what difference does it make? I've heard some say that the Crimson King continues to exist because there must be evil, always. That's horrible. Are we made to suffer? What is redemption, what is its value? Can one even know, ever? Why not? Can one even ask, or is the very concept of meaning simply meaningless? Is the unexamined life the best that we can hope for?

these questions, really dig way deeper than merely the dark tower obviously.

the part where we all get tripped up is rooted in the human condition of having to define good and evil. yin and yang, white and black (or red in this case), are nothing more than our own definitions based on experience. there's only a such thing as the word daylight because there is a darkness. but to say which one is good and which one is evil is an exercise in futility, as both simply ARE. they cannot exist without the other.

think of it like this, if the wind blew all the time and at the same speed forever, we wouldn't need to define it any further. people would never say, "its windy today!" no one would get annoyed with the wind, you would think someone crazy for even talking about the wind. boat trips would never be cancelled, certain places would always be cold, and hats would likely all have straps on them. who knows, maybe its always blowing at 140mph, but having known no different our perception about it would be a far cry from what it is currently. the good vs. evil question is the other side of that same coin. we have things that we define as "this is good" and "this is bad". but ultimately, it all comes down to our perception of events on a daily basis, and what we allow to happen within our own little world. some events, with or without our judgement of them, will happen anyway. (ie, devastating hurricanes are not evil, they just are).You are wrong in presuming that we all get tripped up in the same way. Believe it or not, I have heard what you are saying before. I'm sure that SK has, as well, and I think that you are also wrong to say that the questions I posed dig deeper than The Dark Tower. You sound like Louis Creed in early chapters of Pet Semetary; "Nothing could be more natural than death." Aside from you yourself happening to believe that the concept of evil is purely a subjective one, do you have any evidence that this is how TDT is best interpreted?

[Seneschal]

i wasnt saying anyone was wrong, i merely meant that some of the questions you ask will delve further into people's beliefs than the realm of the Tower...

what i posted are my beliefs. but to think that you are not tripped up by your own perceptions is a bit odd i think. you may be able to see a lot of sides of a lot of things, but somewhere along the line, your own experiences always influence your thought. thats all i was really getting at.

[pathoftheturtle]

Nah. I'm just a bit more blunt about it.
No offense intended, though, and none was actually taken on my part.

[Seneschal]

Nah. I'm just a bit more blunt about it.
No offense intended, though, and none was actually taken on my part.

I didnt take any either, but i actually thought somehow i offended you when really i was just expressing deep interest in the very questions you were posing.

[pathoftheturtle]

... i maintain that once the tower/keystone world is saved once, it is saved infinitely. the fact that keystone world cannot deviate from linear time is the "key" to saving the tower itself. it is said more than once that the rose in the vacant lot of keystone world actually IS the dark tower, not merely a representation of it like in other worlds (hence the reason destroying the rose in the keystone world would bring an end to all things...) once roland saves it once, it is just SAVED. time only moves forward in that world, the one that matters. every iteration of the loop--through all world, mid world, and end world where roland is on his quest--is merely another alternate reality, one step further away from the actual occurrence of him saving the tower (and all the incidents that led to that end).

at least, this is how i sleep at night.This is also pretty thought-provoking in its way. I'll try to further respond later. Have you read this thread (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=10303) yet?

[Avin_River]

Hey all. I'm new here and this may be an old topic as far as I know, if it is I cry your pardon ;) Has anyone else made the choice not to read the end of the last book? I've read the series about five times and always chosen not to follow into the tower. Not a big deal except that I haven't found anyone else who has made the same choice AND my hubby thinks I'm crazy. Anyone? Thanks!:blush::rose: Avin

[turtlex]

Hey Avin - Welcome to the site. We actually have a couple of existing threads that discuss the ending of the series.

That Thing, You Can Only Talk About If You've Finished the Series (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=1778)

and

The Official End Thread (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=376)

there's also the What did you feel when you read the last line (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=788) thread.

[Erin]

Hey Avin! Welcome!

I have a friend who actually didn't read the very end as well!

However, for myself, there was NO way I'd have ever been able to stop, knowing there was more story. I'm far too curious. :lol:

[pathoftheturtle]

Hey Avin - Welcome to the site. We actually have a couple of existing threads that discuss the ending of the series.

That Thing, You Can Only Talk About If You've Finished the Series (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=1778)

and

The Official End Thread (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=376)

there's also the What did you feel when you read the last line (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=788) thread.Spoiler warnings. All of these are about the part of the ending that you didn't read.
To answer your question: Yes, some other people have posted here about doing that, er, not doing that. Some finally did finish. I can't remember who said that they still hadn't, or where those comments are, offhand...

[pathoftheturtle]

I just feel like the supposed moral of the series is self-contradictory. We're led to believe that Roland is being punished for putting self-image ahead of real philanthropy, yet at the same time, the punisher is assuming that his personal development matters more than any issues of general progress.

[mystima]

This is just an opinion here, just some thoughts as to why some of the things he said at the end might be the reason for it....remember just an opinion not fact.

At the time that King was in the process of writing his epic story, he had a major traumatic incident happen to him. A lot of fans were worried they would not get to see Roland reach the tower. During the time he was recuperating from the accident, he was bombarded by letters from all kinds of people. A death row inmate and a very sick elderly woman, just to name a couple begged him to tell them what the ending was so that they could go on from this world knowing what happened. In my opinion he wrote the last three books in a hurry because: 1) he was not sure if he would be able to due to said accident. 2) people were clamoring for an ending to the story, and he was trying to accommodate them and in doing so, we have the last three books that we have. 3)And last he said something somewhere that he was planning on making the end of the story have the last sentence the same as that of the very first sentence of the very first book. The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

[johnnyonthespot1]

So... I just finished reading DT7 for the first time. I was completely enthralled by this book. It was action-packed, major characters died heartbreaking, sacrificial deaths, and had perhaps as much plot as all the other books combined. I was loving it.

I took many deep breaths before reading the "final" chapter, "The Crimson King and the Dark Tower." I had been reading for the series for six months, and now the moment of truth had finally arrived! During that time, I was thinking to myself, "What is going to happen when the gunslinger finally reaches his goal? How do I want this story to end?"

And I was truly horrified and profoundly disappointed by how the final showdown unfolded.

I am no writer. I am no Stephen King. I do not have the breadth nor depth of imagination to conceive of, or write this entire series. And I will be grateful for the journey I have taken in reading these books. But I can certainly think of a better confrontation for the ending of Roland's quest. We know that a movie/TV series is being developed, and comics are well underway, and to some extent, they will change the way events transpire. Even the "resumption" Coda seems to allow for some flexibility in the story.

So here is how I would tell the story of the final showdown if I were directing/writing these movies and comics. And minus the Patrick Danville stuff and the sneetch-throwing, this is what I pictured happening in my mind before I read that final, fateful chapter...

Remember the prophecy that Mordred would kill his own father? Well, he has two fathers, Roland and the Crimson King, right? Also, Roland cannot kill the Crimson King with his gun since he is now "undead." And going into a fight, Roland usually has a plan to outwit his enemies. Here's an ending that takes all of that into account.

Let's pick things up in DT7 at the point where Oy sacrifices himself so that Roland can kill Mordred. Roland buries Oy. Patrick Danville and Roland reach the top of the hill where they catch their first full glimpse of the Dark Tower. Roland lays down the handles of the cart, and in the cart we see Mordred's monstrous, limp, charred body.

The Crimson King curses Roland, throws his sneetches and Roland fends them off, just like in the actual story. Danville finishes his drawing, adds the rose-juice/blood coloring and the picture comes alive, just like in the real story.

At this point, Roland reaches through the picture, grabs the Crimson King, and pulls himself through the paper onto the balcony of the Dark Tower where the Crimson King is perched. (Alternately, Roland pulls the Crimson King OUT of the picture and onto the pyramid of rocks behind which he is hiding.) In any case, Roland is using Danville's creation to draw himself/Crimson King - not to another world, but - to another location within Canka No Rey, which is, after all, "End-World/All-World."

Roland and the Crimson King grapple, wrestle, an epic battle ensues. The Crimson King wounds Roland grievously as they fall from the Dark Tower to the ground below. All seems lost. But Roland has one last trick up his sleeve.

As the Crimson King closes in on Roland's face to devour his enemy, Roland clenches his two-fingered hand, which is holding Mordred's (head/spider leg/heart/whatever) and shoves it into the Crimson King's mouth. The Crimson King leers at Roland, then bites down with savage force, taking off Roland's hand at the wrist. The Crimson King reels back, stunned by the poisonous flesh in that (head/spider leg/heart/whatever). He convulses, then liquefies or crumples or explodes in a shower of gore.

The Crimson King is dead. The prophecy of Mordred's patricide has been fulfilled. And Roland, even without his gun, has outwitted his enemy and prevailed. Roland has killed with his eye, his mind, his heart. He has not forgotten the face of his father.

Roland dismisses Patrick Danville.

Then, holding his wounded arm, he hobbles to the foot of the Dark Tower, lays down his gunna, and croaks the names of those he has met and sacrificed along his journey. The doors open, and he drags himself through them.

And you can leave it at that, or just continue the story from there more or less as King wrote it. You may say that this is a typical Hollywood showdown between good guy and bad guy, but it certainly takes into account some of the things I thought were foreshadowed earlier in the book, but never came to pass in King's telling of the story.

I'm not sure how I feel about the final ending (the "resumption" Coda), but it was fitting and I can live with it. But the showdown with the Crimson King was profoundly disappointing... so I'll live with my own version of that story until Stephen King, Ron Howard, Robin Furth or someone else comes up with something better.

I'm curious as to what you thought when you read the final showdown with the Crimson King. Did you like it? Did you despise it? Would you have done it differently, if anything?

[flaggwalkstheline]

you just finished the book, perhaps you should give yourself some time to think about it prior to so swiftly passing judgement

it's been like 7 years since the book came out and we're STILL arguing about dt7 here

[Merlin1958]

HISHE:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrcF7dYADsw&feature=popt00us0a


"Who wants some eternity water"??????????

LOL

[Brainslinger]

I don't think Patrick Danville's power quite works like that, but some interesting and rather gruesome ideas. I wouldn't quite like that version either (no offence) but I agree that the foreshadowing should count for something. Mind you, I guess one could argue that those who made the prophesy were just wrong, or intended it to be self fulfilling. By that I mean it wasn't really fated at all, more a statement that the King and his henchmen tried to implement, but even so...

All the major villains seemed way bellow their potential though. The MOST satisfying was probably Roland's slaying of Mordred. That was both devastating on one hand (Oy) but pretty cool all in all. He was way underused as a villain though. And I won't even get into what happened to Walter (or rather, not so much what happened, as when it happened) but I think he should have survived long enough to be the villain in the Dandelo bit. Considering the crystal palace, that bit seemed to be the kind of thing he might pull, but never mind. The IT references were cool.

I was somewhat disappointed with that ending too. Not so much the Danville painting/rubbing out bit. I quite like that. I just wish we'd seen the Crimson King using more of his power after being built up so much. I understand the reasoning that has been given, but it would have been nice if that had been made a bit more explicit, if they had to take this more depowered route.

[DoctorDodge]

When i voted in this thread, (whenever the hell that was,) i thought the ending was perfect and gave it a 5. Having just finished the series for the 2nd time (and, i imagine, it'll be quite a while before there's a 3rd time, with all the book series i need to read), i'm reminded of how much Mordred sucked, and how dissapointing the battle between Roland and the Crimson King was, but despite that, I still love that ending, the true ending of the coda. I just thought that, despite how much Roland had redeemed himself, it was very fitting to show how much his obsession has ruined his life. The ending still sent shivers down my spine as it did the first time, and i still felt a compulsion to listen to Just by Radiohead right afterwards (don't ask me why, i just love that song). So whilst i have a few problems with how the final volume ended (although, considering how much plot it was able to pack in and how most of it went, it's just a couple of (admittedly pretty major) parts that i disliked, i'd give it a 4/5 overall), i'd still give the ending itself a 5/5.

Well, that's one awesome long series done, now it's time to start seeing what all the fuss of A Song of Ice and Fire is all about...

[beam*seeker]

The ending may have fit and been appropriate but I was dissatisfied. Probably because I didn't want it to end.

But als0--I did not like the alternate NYC ending with Eddie, Suze and Jake
Felt the Crimson King and Roland's last battle was anticlimatic
Felt that Mordred could have been more evil

I guess the ending was "right" give the idea that Roland is compulsively trying to reach the tower life after life, but I think the ultimate reality is I did not want the books to end and no ending could have been "big enough"

[pathoftheturtle]

I just think that he tried too hard to please everyone. A lot of people prefer what he gave us to what they figure that he could have given us; but I imagine that I still would have preferred the kind of thing that they wouldn't have.

[detroitdave]

I just finished the Dark Tower VII last week. I began reading the series way back in the early 90's and started over again last year (as novels IV through VII did not yet exist my first time through). I like many others who have posted, was disappointed not with the ending...or beginning again if you like. My disappointment comes from knowing my journey through the epic story had come to an end. I don't think there ever is a "good way" to end something so deep and compelling. As with many other forms of great storytelling (tv shows, movie series), the disappointment is that it is over.

[Brainslinger]

Never mind. While it is over (in a sense) there's a bit more journey 'in between' to come.

[blavigne]

I just finished the Dark Tower VII last week. I began reading the series way back in the early 90's and started over again last year (as novels IV through VII did not yet exist my first time through). I like many others who have posted, was disappointed not with the ending...or beginning again if you like. My disappointment comes from knowing my journey through the epic story had come to an end. I don't think there ever is a "good way" to end something so deep and compelling. As with many other forms of great storytelling (tv shows, movie series), the disappointment is that it is over.

Exactly. :)

[beam*seeker]

I just finished the Dark Tower VII last week. I began reading the series way back in the early 90's and started over again last year (as novels IV through VII did not yet exist my first time through). I like many others who have posted, was disappointed not with the ending...or beginning again if you like. My disappointment comes from knowing my journey through the epic story had come to an end. I don't think there ever is a "good way" to end something so deep and compelling. As with many other forms of great storytelling (tv shows, movie series), the disappointment is that it is over.

Yeah, this mostly. I have to say that philosophically I agree with the end and that it was the "right" ending, but I that doesn't mean that I liked it! I guess I am was wanting Roland to find something heavenly or just really cool at the top of the tower and I was disappointed for him. Or, maybe just disappointed for me.

But I guess in teh end, I also wanted to series to keep going. But I wanted a closure too. Maybe I just could not be satisfied with any ending, that is probably it.

And I agree the ending seemed rushed like he was pressured to come up with an ending. It was a good ending. It was the right ending. I could not envision a better ending.

[The Gasherman]

I liked the final ending in the tower. It left it open for me to dream of the resumption of the quest and what he should do differently.

I didn't like the part with Suze, or the parts with the Crimson King, Flagg or Mordred. The way the Crimson King was so easily dispatched was probably my least favorite part of the whole series.

[pathoftheturtle]

I liked the final ending in the tower. It left it open for me to dream of the resumption of the quest and what he should do differently.
...Agreed. I've been complaining a little about the final scene, but that is indeed a good point.

... The way the Crimson King was so easily dispatched was probably my least favorite part of the whole series.Not my own very least favorite, but I really agree with you there, too! Disappointing. <_<

... or Mordred...Uh, kind of... that could certainly have been better... :|

... or ... with ... Flagg...Nah, now, that part I liked somewhat. I understand, though; we have another thread where lots of folken have complained about it.

I didn't like the part with Suze...And that I liked totally, actually. It's another topic which we have a separate thread on, as well.
Funny how many ways different people view all of these elements.

[pathoftheturtle]

Oh, and there's another thing that I disliked more than how Mordred turned out: Patrick Danville. ><

[Tatts4Life]

I liked the way it ended because it let you be able to read the story over again if you wanted to. I try to read the series from beginning to end starting in January. I've reread it twice so far.

[WeDealInLead]

I actually liked the part with the ka-tet back in New York. They gave everything and were rewarded for it.

I wonder why did the tower pick Roland? And why does it demand perfection? We all have our imperfections and Roland was going to sacrifice everything for it. He has done it before. Isn't that enough already?

[Adumbros]

i can't say i was satisfied with the ending, but for one reason, which i doubt has been named thus far: it was too predictable. all that ka-is-a-wheel shit, you honestly knew it was gonna end with a thud if you thought laterally for even one second. and honestly, the ending didn't feel like the truth. at all. like, he goes through the door, only this time, he has the Horn, and yet it's apparent by Rollie's own memory as he passes through the door that this has occurred repeatedly, and so why is it just now he finally comes through with the Horn? way too contrived for my taste. as i've stated on other threads, the entire last three volumes felt rushed and forced, as if poor mr. king was hellbent for leather on finishing the series as quick as possible after his car accident just in case he didn't live long enough to do it properly. personal opinion, w/o the accident, we'd just now be looking at the release of book 6, accordin to the schedule of the previous volumes in the series. just...felt like a completely dishonest ending.

[Jimimck]

I just finished reading it about an hour ago. Started The Gunslinger about 6-7 years ago, and have obviously taken my time with it all.

I felt very invested in the story and characters (as no doubt everyone here did), and at first I had to take a deep breath and realise what I had just read.

I wasn't expecting exactly what happened, but as he was walking up The Tower, I knew it was building up to something that I thought I would dread.
Now I've had a bit of time to think about it, I'm very happy with it. It kinda keeps the story alive, and the characters still together (or will be together again).

I'm sure I'll focus on other areas of the final book and already have a few issues with things like the alternatate NY etc, but overall, I'm pleased with it, and will love reading ther series again in the future.

[RolandLover]

I loved the ending but I will say that Suze choosing to leave Roland because Eddie wasn't there was a copout on her part. She could've have made it to the Tower with Roland because she said she would do it and believed in it. To think Eddie was worried that Roland would leave her behind for the DT in the DOTT. All in all I'm glad sai King "ended" the way he did. Btw I love this board and I'm sad I just found it and missed all of the great posts.

[Jean]

how did you miss them? they're all here

there is a thread somewhere about Susannah's decision (which I advocate, by the way), too

[pathoftheturtle]

... there is a thread somewhere about Susannah's decision (which I advocate, by the way), tooSo you're consistent. It seems that the majority favor the theory that Roland's quest is simply an unhealthy obsession, yet also disdain Susannah for not sharing it. :beat:

In general, (though I'm open minded, and sometimes even joke about the issues) my personal position endorses Susannah's ultimate decision for her and also Roland's for him.

[Jean]

why, of course

[RolandLover]

how did you miss them? they're all here

there is a thread somewhere about Susannah's decision (which I advocate, by the way), too

I should say I'm a couple of years late on the discussions but better later than never :) Thanks!

[The Road Virus]

4

[Tatts4Life]

I couldn't find a thread about this but it sort of has to do with the end so I'll post it here. I HATE the way Flagg/ MIB is killed off. I mean really? Killed by a F'in spider because he was tired. I think that was lazy of Stephen King to kill him the way he did.

[pathoftheturtle]

King went out of his way to justify his work by adding the essay "On Being Nineteen" to the revision of DT1 he published after writing DT7, an essay which says that literary writers are just as selfish as commercial ones, in that they're basically introverted, they want to improve themselves and be good examples, not serve the audience's wishes. But then he slams his audience at the end of the series and shows Roland punished apparently for not being introverted enough or a good enough example. It's really quite tricky -- his mixed message makes EVERYBODY guilty.

[Wuducynn]

I couldn't find a thread about this but it sort of has to do with the end so I'll post it here. I HATE the way Flagg/ MIB is killed off. I mean really? Killed by a F'in spider because he was tired. I think that was lazy of Stephen King to kill him the way he did.

If you think Mordred was just a fucking spider then you need to do a re-read. Especially all that build up with the explanation of the prophecy. Yeah. Just a spider. Okay. Just say you don't like your favorite baddie getting dispatched like a bitch and just leave it at that.


King went out of his way to justify his work by adding the essay "On Being Nineteen" to the revision of DT1 he published after writing DT7, an essay which says that literary writers are just as selfish as commercial ones, in that they're basically introverted, they want to improve themselves and be good examples, not serve the audience's wishes. But then he slams his audience at the end of the series and shows Roland punished apparently for not being introverted enough or a good enough example. It's really quite tricky -- his mixed message makes EVERYBODY guilty.

Path, Path, Path...that was no "justification" that was explanation of why he revised The Gunslinger. Sounds to me like you've built up in your own mind your own idea of what King was "really" meaning by his essay, instead of just taking it at face value. There is no mixed message. There is exactly what he said. You may not like what he said and that's fine but don't give me the mixed message crap.