The Official End Thread

[Wuducynn]

Yeah, if he gets there and does what he needs to do with Los', and then walks away. Hmmmm, don't know if he could do that. Also, isn't there always a chance that he could fail and Los' wins? I think there is...too many seem to think not on here. They think its guaranteed that he will win in every loop.

[Matt]

I think those problems would go away if Roland cried off. They weren't after the Tower, they were after Roland who is his own "tower" imo

[jayson]

Yeah, if he gets there and does what he needs to do with Los', and then walks away. Hmmmm, don't know if he could do that. Also, isn't there always a chance that he could fail and Los' wins? I think there is...too many seem to think not on here. They think its guaranteed that he will win in every loop.

i think nothing is guaranteed. there but for Oy, mordred would have eaten Roland on this loop. i still don't even see why i should believe the loops are the same. all i believe for sure is Los will continue to try to rule the Tower or bring it down and Roland will keep trying to stop him.

[Wuducynn]

Yeah, I don't think each loop is the same at all.

[jayson]

Yeah, I don't think each loop is the same at all.

i think the general nature of the quest is the same [ie. stop Los from getting to the top of the Tower] but not necessarily the events from desert to Tower and not necessarily the people he meets/draws/kills.

[Letti]

Next time Roland will end up in a McDolands. We all know it.

[jayson]

Next time Roland will end up in a McDolands. We all know it.

and if he supersizes it, he has to do the loop again ;)

[Letti]

Next time Roland will end up in a McDolands. We all know it.

and if he supersizes it, he has to do the loop again ;)

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[fernandito]

Do we actually KNOW that the universe will collapse if the Tower is left unprotected? Not really.

The other side of the coin : We also have no way of knowing that it won't.




But couldn't Roland just protect the beams and leave the Tower alone?

with the CK hanging out there and Mordred on his way? not sure that'd been a great idea.

My thoughts exactly.

[Ka-tet]

I still disagree with you odetta. I agree about Roland keeping his tet intact but he still needs to reach the tower, just with his tet intact. You say that he didnt learn this time around that things were more important than the tower, but i think he did i. Im sure that he dedicated reaching the tower to each member of his tet in turn before he enterd. I also belive that is why the tower gave him the horn this time around, thats why i belive things will be different.

You thoughs sai?

[jayson]

Do we actually KNOW that the universe will collapse if the Tower is left unprotected? Not really.

The other side of the coin : We also have no way of knowing that it won't.


precisely. better to err on the side of caution and not find out when it's too late. "oops, the Tower fell. Rule discordia."

[fernandito]

(confetti)

[jayson]

here's one for you Ka-Tet [and others who think the whole gang has to be there with Roland to go into the Tower]... what then do you make of Suze's departure? did she leave bc she knew they ALL had to go in, or bc she knew only Roland could go in, or another reason altogether. if the lesson to be learned is all for one and one for all, then surely Roland and Suze would have been better than just Roland, right? so why did she leave and why did he allow her to leave?

[Odetta]

I still disagree with you odetta. I agree about Roland keeping his tet intact but he still needs to reach the tower, just with his tet intact. You say that he didnt learn this time around that things were more important than the tower, but i think he did i. Im sure that he dedicated reaching the tower to each member of his tet in turn before he enterd. I also belive that is why the tower gave him the horn this time around, thats why i belive things will be different.

You thoughs sai?

I posted my opinion on the horn on another thread somewhere around here. Hmmm... let me check...
*digs around*

nope, can't find it at the moment. But it was something to the effect of...
'you know when you finish the final boss on a video game and they give you some kind of stupid cheat like invincibility that is totally irrelevant because you've already beaten the game? That's the horn.'

i DON'T think Roland learned anything. AND even if he did, it will be irrelevant because once he starts the new loop he will forget everything from the previous loop. It all starts with Jake. If he doesn't let go of Jake, then maybe there's hope that he cares more for his tet than the Tower.

[Wuducynn]

He has the Horn of Eld at the end meaning he has progressed, meaning inside Roland HAS learned something. I think its slow, but he has taken the change from this loop with him and that is why he has the Horn. I think its also evidence that this loop he will have his whole ka-tet with him like it says he should at the end of the poem, and with the Horn of Eld the top of the Tower will open to him.

[Wuducynn]

Thats if he survives to get inside it of course.

[Matt]

It all starts with Jake. If he doesn't let go of Jake, then maybe there's hope that he cares more for his tet than the Tower.

:clap:

Yep, that's the deal right there. Maybe having the horn will mean that he at least gives a shit about something other than the Tower and that will mean he has the capacity to give more of a shit about Jake and so on.

[jayson]

It all starts with Jake. If he doesn't let go of Jake, then maybe there's hope that he cares more for his tet than the Tower.

:clap:

Yep, that's the deal right there. Maybe having the horn will mean that he at least gives a shit about something other than the Tower and that will mean he has the capacity to give more of a shit about Jake and so on.

or maybe the loop will be completely different than the last and there won't be a Jake to consider dropping or not

[Odetta]

He has the Horn of Eld at the end meaning he has progressed, meaning inside Roland HAS learned something. I think its slow, but he has taken the change from this loop with him and that is why he has the Horn. I think its also evidence that this loop he will have his whole ka-tet with him like it says he should at the end of the poem, and with the Horn of Eld the top of the Tower will open to him.

how optimistic of you :wub:

I guess maybe I don't want a happy ending in this story. That could be why I see it the way I do.

[Matt]

It all starts with Jake. If he doesn't let go of Jake, then maybe there's hope that he cares more for his tet than the Tower.:clap:

Yep, that's the deal right there. Maybe having the horn will mean that he at least gives a shit about something other than the Tower and that will mean he has the capacity to give more of a shit about Jake and so on.

or maybe the loop will be completely different than the last and there won't be a Jake to consider dropping or not

I was using what we know as an example. With or without Jake he will be tested somehow and he needs to pass that test.

[jayson]

It all starts with Jake. If he doesn't let go of Jake, then maybe there's hope that he cares more for his tet than the Tower.:clap:

Yep, that's the deal right there. Maybe having the horn will mean that he at least gives a shit about something other than the Tower and that will mean he has the capacity to give more of a shit about Jake and so on.

or maybe the loop will be completely different than the last and there won't be a Jake to consider dropping or not

I was using what we know as an example. With or without Jake he will be tested somehow and he needs to pass that test.

i know what you mean.

[Wuducynn]

how optimistic of you :wub:

I guess maybe I don't want a happy ending in this story. That could be why I see it the way I do.

Why wouldn't you want a happy ending though?

[Odetta]

how optimistic of you :wub:

I guess maybe I don't want a happy ending in this story. That could be why I see it the way I do.

Why wouldn't you want a happy ending though?

good question. I've never been a fan of the typical 'happy ending', which is why I loved the ending of the series!
I don't know that Roland deserves a happy ending, I guess.

[Wuducynn]

good question. I've never been a fan of the typical 'happy ending', which is why I loved the ending of the series!
I don't know that Roland deserves a happy ending, I guess.

Well I doubt whenever it really ends it will be a perfectly "happy" one, but happier than having to try to get to the Tower again and possibly failing.

[Odetta]

mayhaps

[TerribleT]

I don't think he'll ever succeed because I think the only way for his quest to end is for him to stop trying to reach the Tower.

I totally agree, the only way to conquer the Tower is to not go.

which always leads us back to the same question... what happens to the multiverse when nobody protects the Tower? i still maintain the results can't be good.

Amen brutha!!!!

[TerribleT]

I think those problems would go away if Roland cried off. They weren't after the Tower, they were after Roland who is his own "tower" imo

Wouldn't breaking the beams destroy the tower?

[Ka-tet]

R of G said

here's one for you Ka-Tet [and others who think the whole gang has to be there with Roland to go into the Tower]... what then do you make of Suze's departure? did she leave bc she knew they ALL had to go in, or bc she knew only Roland could go in, or another reason altogether. if the lesson to be learned is all for one and one for all, then surely Roland and Suze would have been better than just Roland, right? so why did she leave and why did he allow her to leave?

I had completly overlooked that, but i still stand by with what i said. Even though it was Rolands tet maby he isnt the only one that has to learn a lesson? And i dont think it would have made a difference if suze was there with roland, the tet was still well and truly broken at that point. Ill think some more on this and reply.

Anyone have anything to add?

[jayson]

I think those problems would go away if Roland cried off. They weren't after the Tower, they were after Roland who is his own "tower" imo

Wouldn't breaking the beams destroy the tower?

sure seems like they thought so. if there goal was to go after roland, there'd have been plenty of chances to do it directly. they were DEF after the Beams which held up a real Tower which really was the nexus of the multiverse. the vision he gets when he goes in may be his alone, but the Tower is more than just something in Roland's subconcious. It's there, it's real and it is in danger.

[Ka-tet]

R Of G said

It's there, it's real and it is in danger.

We were lead to belive this all the way through the books but how can you be so sure? Nothing points to this theory not really there isnt that much evidance to show that the tower would fall if roland wasnt there. I dont honestly belive that every time roland enters the room at the top of the tower that the whole multiverse goes back in time, do you? only roland does therefore these other times still exist.

sai?

[Wuducynn]

There are plenty of reasons to believe without Roland going to the Tower it would fall. They are mentioned throughout the series and in the connected books.

[Ka-tet]

Yes we hear this, but not one of us saw the tower fall. Noone ever did. There was belife and thats all.

[Jean]

There are plenty of reasons to believe without Roland going to the Tower it would fall. They are mentioned throughout the series and in the connected books.
"believe" is key word here... it's only a matter of faith, that's what makes the book so precious for me personally.

[Wuducynn]

Of course we didn't see the Tower fall, Roland and his ka-tet saved it.

[jayson]

How do I believ there is a Tower? Because there IS a Tower, and other people besides Roland see it [Patrick sees it, Dandelo took a photograph of it]. It is there. The Beams are real bc otherwise the breakers are what, an elaborate ruse? The Beams are real bc Shardik was real. The Beam Guardian must be guarding something. How do we know it will fall? I think Feverishparade asked the more important question, how do we know it won't fall?

And no, I don't think the Tower is a giant reset button. I don't think Roland or the multiverse goes "back" in time. Roland comes out where he comes out, it never says what time it is in the universe [ie. before or after we saw him go into the Tower]. it is when it is.

[Wuducynn]

There are plenty of reasons to believe without Roland going to the Tower it would fall. They are mentioned throughout the series and in the connected books.
"believe" is key word here... it's only a matter of faith, that's what makes the book so precious for me personally.


Its more than just believing, there is solid evidence. The thinnies growing everywhere, slippage, plagues, beamquakes..etc. I am with you on the faith part though. There is a strong element of that in these books.

[Odetta]

There are plenty of reasons to believe without Roland going to the Tower it would fall. They are mentioned throughout the series and in the connected books.
"believe" is key word here... it's only a matter of faith, that's what makes the book so precious for me personally.


Its more than just believing, there is solid evidence. The thinnies growing everywhere, slippage, plagues, beamquakes..etc. I am with you on the faith part though. There is a strong element of that in these books.

maybe... but maybe those pieces of 'evidence' are not necessarily a sign of what would happen should the Tower fall.
There is a possibility that the beams could fall, there be a beamquake, and then life would go on. There is the ASSUMPTION that if the beams all crumble that the entire universe would collapse, but that truly is unknown.

[Matt]

I totally agree with this line of reasoning. The Tower itself is an idea that was allowed physical manifestation for this tale.

I'm re listening to the first one now and the man is obsessed--someone needs to tell him..."the Tower is you man, what is being destroyed is you"

[jayson]

There are plenty of reasons to believe without Roland going to the Tower it would fall. They are mentioned throughout the series and in the connected books.
"believe" is key word here... it's only a matter of faith, that's what makes the book so precious for me personally.


Its more than just believing, there is solid evidence. The thinnies growing everywhere, slippage, plagues, beamquakes..etc. I am with you on the faith part though. There is a strong element of that in these books.

maybe... but maybe those pieces of 'evidence' are not necessarily a sign of what would happen should the Tower fall.
There is a possibility that the beams could fall, there be a beamquake, and then life would go on. There is the ASSUMPTION that if the beams all crumble that the entire universe would collapse, but that truly is unknown.

which takes us back to FP's question of are you willing to wait until the tower falls to find out?

[jayson]

I totally agree with this line of reasoning. The Tower itself is an idea that was allowed physical manifestation for this tale.

I'm re listening to the first one now and the man is obsessed--someone needs to tell him..."the Tower is you man, what is being destroyed is you"

so the Beamquake was what? Roland wasn't the only one to feel its affects, so clearly there was something happening to the physical world, no?

[Matt]

To me, its all Roland man---all of it, all of them...everything. :lol:

[jayson]

To me, its all Roland man---all of it, all of them...everything. :lol:

interesting metaphysical conception, that's for sure. so is it really happening, or is it just a manifestation of Roland's unconscious self?

[Wuducynn]

maybe... but maybe those pieces of 'evidence' are not necessarily a sign of what would happen should the Tower fall.
There is a possibility that the beams could fall, there be a beamquake, and then life would go on. There is the ASSUMPTION that if the beams all crumble that the entire universe would collapse, but that truly is unknown.

I was talking about evidence that the Tower was falling. And the evidence that if it did the multiverse (as we know it within the series) would be destroyed. Yes, we don't know for sure but there is plenty of evidence pointing towards it.

[Matt]

To me, its all Roland man---all of it, all of them...everything. :lol:

interesting metaphysical conception, that's for sure. so is it really happening, or is it just a manifestation of Roland's unconscious self?

I think its as real as it gets for him and I am also not saying that The Tower isn't real--this is just part of it.

[jayson]

To me, its all Roland man---all of it, all of them...everything. :lol:

interesting metaphysical conception, that's for sure. so is it really happening, or is it just a manifestation of Roland's unconscious self?

I think its as real as it gets for him and I am also not saying that The Tower isn't real--this is just part of it.

i love these DT_7 threads bc they let you play out your theories on the metaphysics of the series. as a comparative mythology geek, that's where my interest peaks

[Odetta]

There are plenty of reasons to believe without Roland going to the Tower it would fall. They are mentioned throughout the series and in the connected books.
"believe" is key word here... it's only a matter of faith, that's what makes the book so precious for me personally.


Its more than just believing, there is solid evidence. The thinnies growing everywhere, slippage, plagues, beamquakes..etc. I am with you on the faith part though. There is a strong element of that in these books.

maybe... but maybe those pieces of 'evidence' are not necessarily a sign of what would happen should the Tower fall.
There is a possibility that the beams could fall, there be a beamquake, and then life would go on. There is the ASSUMPTION that if the beams all crumble that the entire universe would collapse, but that truly is unknown.

which takes us back to FP's question of are you willing to wait until the tower falls to find out?

no, I am not. And even more importantly, I don't think it would be possible for Roland to either. His obssession will always override everything else. The only change to his newest loop is that he has the horn. He will remember nothing else. Will the horn really change anything? His desire, no, his NEED to get to the top of the Tower? I think not. Is he MORE obssessed about saving the Tower or just getting there and going in?
But this is why I think Roland's destiny is to continue to run this loop over and over forever... it is the epitome of the tragic hero.

[Wuducynn]

He will remember nothing else. Will the horn really change anything?

You don't know this for sure. What if his blindness in his obsession is lessened because of the events in the loop that we read about have changed him inside? Couldn't the Horn of Eld be a symbol of that? I think it is.

[Odetta]

again, always the optimist. ;)

[Odetta]

:lol:
I love when these debates turn into a kindergarten brawl!
Yeah? Well my mom says I don't have to play with you!

[Wuducynn]

:innocent:

[jayson]

yeah well my dad says the loops are different and my dad is BIG!:cool:

[fernandito]

He will remember nothing else. Will the horn really change anything?

You don't know this for sure. What if his blindness in his obsession is lessened because of the events in the loop that we read about have changed him inside? Couldn't the Horn of Eld be a symbol of that? I think it is.

Yes!

I believe that the horn signifies that something has changed within Roland; it may be subtle and/or infinitesimal, but something definitely has changed.

[ATG]

We'll see whenever Sai King gets around to finishing the series.

[MonteGss]

We'll see whenever Sai King gets around to finishing the series.

:| :unsure:

[Wuducynn]

We'll see whenever Sai King gets around to finishing the series.

Hello in there ATG...what color is the sky in your world?

[Odetta]

I think ATG is making a point here... I take it you feel a little, ahem... "unimpressed" by King's ending?

[Wuducynn]

No, he's already stated in another thread that he believes King is going to make nineteen books in the series...or something like that.

[Odetta]

oh... aren't there already 19 books connected, tho? Wasn't that the point?

[Wuducynn]

*shrugs* I think its a bunch of hooey personally...a bunch of giant cockey-doody hooey....and a half.

[Odetta]

well, that's what I heard, anyway.

[Wuducynn]

Well I was meaning the idea that he isn't done with the series.

[Brice]

Well I was meaning the idea that he isn't done with the series.

So...you don't believe there will be another dozen DT books? :lol:

[Odetta]

Well I was meaning the idea that he isn't done with the series.

So...you don't believe there will be another dozen DT books? :lol:

oh, god! I hope not!

[Wuducynn]

*shrugs* I think its a bunch of hooey personally...a bunch of giant cockey-doody hooey....and a half.



So...you don't believe there will be another dozen DT books? :lol:

Where did you get that idea?

[aurora]

My thought is that yes the Tower and the beams are real to everyone in the multi-verse. The Tower is both Gan and the beams which are extensions of Gan as well as machinery which was an attempt to replace the magic of the prim. Gan is not dying but technology is. Its the technology of the beams that are faltering and their eventual death leaves a wake of lack of magic and technology leading to chaos everywhere. Gan however would still be around in some form as well the existence of the Prim as wherever they actually went. Plus don't forget that in 'IT' the turtle was more then just machine it was Prim.

So now back to the question of Roland. What was Roland really after? Save the Tower? I don't think Gan would die if the beams all break, He may not stand as the Tower anymore but still he'd exist. So is it for Roland to save Gan? Or is it Roland, hire of Arthur Eld seeking to save the inhabitants of the Multi-Verse. Or has Roland been stuck in the loop at least several times and he's really seeking to save himself?

Me personally I think its a bit of each of the above. I believe that Rolands tiredness and pains towards the end of the quest are a result of some light dawning in him that he is failing himself as well as the people around him. He desires to be and do more then he has and yet seems lost as to why and how he is failing. He knows on the one hand he must save everyone so the loss of one is minor to the loss of the multi-verse. Yet its the loss of the one, the ones he knows and loves that torment him. He does not, can not know the infinite masses of the multi-verse how can he love them? How can he save the multi-verse if he can't save those that are close to him?

I think that the lack of the Horn of Eld is key to Rolands internal problem. He left the Horn with Cuthbert, one he loved dearly as a token of his love. Yet not having the Horn at the end means he can't open his love to the Multi-verse and thus he fails the multi-verse. Until Roland can find away to reconcile the loss of his friends as acts of their own quest and not a complete result of Rolands lack of abiltiy to save all, he will never climb the Tower successfully. In other words Roland traps Roland in the loop facilitated by Gan. People places and times are all the same, Roland is essentially the same therefore his choices vary little from loop to loop. Yet the simplest change may cascade into massive changes throughout his loop.

For example what if Roland kept the Horn of Eld? Would he not be tempted to use it in later battles? If so would that alert attention that was not there before and thus cause damage or success in ways not found in other loops? What if the entire Ka-Tet save Roland ended up dead in the Calla because Roland blew the Horn? Or what if only Jake and or Eddie died? He'd still fail because he lost the ones he loved. What is on the other hand he saved all and did indeed have the Horn of Eld, would he still open the top door and end his quest. No, I doubt it. Roland has not resolved his conflict he just managed to avoid it. I'm sure Gan would find away to makes sure that the conflict arises regardless of the fact he saved the ones he loved and had the Horn. For instance he still is a Gunslinger killing, well a lot, to save a faltering world. Those closest are saved but not all can be saved, there will always be loss. there will always be Walter, The Crimson King, Mordred, Los', thus always loss of some sort.

For me I think that Roland will endlessly wander the loops which he creates in his own mind which is facilitated by the sprite of Gan in the Tower. Why? Because its impossible for Roland to grasp the infinite of the multi-verse and how can you love something beyond your grasp to comprehend enough to reconcile the loss of those you do know and love?

[Odetta]

very well written, aurora

[Recker]

To me there is no doubt that the Dark Tower is a curse for anyone who tries to discover its secret. Roland was cursed to relive the same quest over and over and it’s unlikely that anything will ever change. He will make the same mistakes time and time again and follow the same path.

The same applies to the reader and I think this is a very clever thing on King’s part. If we the reader wish to continue reading about Roland the only thing we can do is go back to the very first book and start all over again. So if you like, the curse of the Dark Tower is also on the reader. We suffer the same fate as Roland.

I think it was a very appropriate ending. Like any book, the reader can only read it again. They can’t go on and read new adventures, because there won’t be any. It’s rather ironic, really when you think about it.

[fernandito]

Well, perhaps after every loop that Roland goes through he 'learns' something new and gains something new (i.e the horn), so you can't say that every adventure/loop will be exactly the same.

[Kyonn]

To me there is no doubt that the Dark Tower is a curse for anyone who tries to discover its secret. Roland was cursed to relive the same quest over and over and it’s unlikely that anything will ever change. He will make the same mistakes time and time again and follow the same path.

The same applies to the reader and I think this is a very clever thing on King’s part. If we the reader wish to continue reading about Roland the only thing we can do is go back to the very first book and start all over again. So if you like, the curse of the Dark Tower is also on the reader. We suffer the same fate as Roland.

I think it was a very appropriate ending. Like any book, the reader can only read it again. They can’t go on and read new adventures, because there won’t be any. It’s rather ironic, really when you think about it.

I still slightly disagree.

I don't think he's cursed for simply seeking the Tower but for the relentless way he pursued his quest and the choices he made along the way. Like choosing duty and the Tower over the life of his true love, being so relentless that he wouldn't even pause a few seconds to pick up his horn that meant so much to him and worse of all letting a 12 year boy fall to his death.

Those are the things that cursed Roland.

And seeing as he did paused to pick up the horn this time through the cycle that applies that Roland can change, even its only a small amount at a time, and eventually he may "get it right" and break the cruse.

[Brice]

To me there is no doubt that the Dark Tower is a curse for anyone who tries to discover its secret. Roland was cursed to relive the same quest over and over and it’s unlikely that anything will ever change. He will make the same mistakes time and time again and follow the same path.

The same applies to the reader and I think this is a very clever thing on King’s part. If we the reader wish to continue reading about Roland the only thing we can do is go back to the very first book and start all over again. So if you like, the curse of the Dark Tower is also on the reader. We suffer the same fate as Roland.

I think it was a very appropriate ending. Like any book, the reader can only read it again. They can’t go on and read new adventures, because there won’t be any. It’s rather ironic, really when you think about it.

I still slightly disagree.

I don't think he's cursed for simply seeking the Tower but for the relentless way he pursued his quest and the choices he made along the way. Like choosing duty and the Tower over the life of his true love, being so relentless that he wouldn't even pause a few seconds to pick up his horn that meant so much to him and worse of all letting a 12 year boy fall to his death.

Those are the things that cursed Roland.

And seeing as he did paused to pick up the horn this time through the cycle that applies that Roland can change, even its only a small amount at a time, and eventually he may "get it right" and break the cruse.


Well, if him choosing the tower over Susan or not picking up the horn were mistakes to be corrected he'd start the loop at an earlier point in time wouldn't he?

[Kyonn]

To me there is no doubt that the Dark Tower is a curse for anyone who tries to discover its secret. Roland was cursed to relive the same quest over and over and it’s unlikely that anything will ever change. He will make the same mistakes time and time again and follow the same path.

The same applies to the reader and I think this is a very clever thing on King’s part. If we the reader wish to continue reading about Roland the only thing we can do is go back to the very first book and start all over again. So if you like, the curse of the Dark Tower is also on the reader. We suffer the same fate as Roland.

I think it was a very appropriate ending. Like any book, the reader can only read it again. They can’t go on and read new adventures, because there won’t be any. It’s rather ironic, really when you think about it.

I still slightly disagree.

I don't think he's cursed for simply seeking the Tower but for the relentless way he pursued his quest and the choices he made along the way. Like choosing duty and the Tower over the life of his true love, being so relentless that he wouldn't even pause a few seconds to pick up his horn that meant so much to him and worse of all letting a 12 year boy fall to his death.

Those are the things that cursed Roland.

And seeing as he did paused to pick up the horn this time through the cycle that applies that Roland can change, even its only a small amount at a time, and eventually he may "get it right" and break the cruse.


Well, if him choosing the tower over Susan or not picking up the horn were mistakes to be corrected he'd start the loop at an earlier point in time wouldn't he?

Just because King shows us Roland in the desert doesn't mean he started back over there. In fact have the Horn implies that he did not.

We first meet Roland in the desert but we know his quest did not began there, that's just where King decides to start the tale and I think this cycle is no different. Personally I believe that Rolands lives his whole life over or at least from the point when he first exited the wizards glass and started his quest for the tower.

[sarah]

Just because King shows us Roland in the desert doesn't mean he started back over there. In fact have the Horn implies that he did not.

We first meet Roland in the desert but we know his quest did not began there, that's just where King decides to start the tale and I think this cycle is no different. Personally I believe that Rolands lives his whole life over or at least from the point when he first exited the wizards glass and started his quest for the tower.



Thanks for this post. I never thought of it that way but it makes total sense. Just because King has him in the desert in the loop doesn't mean he started over there. Just because he opened the door to the desert doesn't mean he was really starting there. Interesting theory. I'm in the middle of rereading DT7 (I have the dreaded readers block at the moment) but I will hopefully have fresh insight upon finishing this reread.

[MonteGss]

Just because King shows us Roland in the desert doesn't mean he started back over there. In fact have the Horn implies that he did not.

We first meet Roland in the desert but we know his quest did not began there, that's just where King decides to start the tale and I think this cycle is no different. Personally I believe that Rolands lives his whole life over or at least from the point when he first exited the wizards glass and started his quest for the tower.



Thanks for this post. I never thought of it that way but it makes total sense. Just because King has him in the desert in the loop doesn't mean he started over there. Just because he opened the door to the desert doesn't mean he was really starting there. Interesting theory. I'm in the middle of rereading DT7 (I have the dreaded readers block at the moment) but I will hopefully have fresh insight upon finishing this reread.

Well just before Roland enters his last door, the book states (thru Roland) that he does go into the desert each time and for a specific reason too.

[Matt]

My co worker to me in the middle of her first read of the 3rd book.

"is the Tower just a euphemism for obsession?"

wow! :beat:

I told her I didn't know and its the truth. :lol:

[Wuducynn]

My co worker to me in the middle of her first read of the 3rd book.

"is the Tower just a euphemism for obsession?"

wow! :beat:

I told her I didn't know and its the truth. :lol:

Thats definitely one of those "Get to the end and you'll have to make up your own mind" things. For me, I don't think ANYTHING in the Dark Tower series is euphemistic or purely symbolic. I don't think King writes that way, the Tower is the lynch pin of the worlds and Gan himself. Not symbolic of anything necessarily.

[LadyHitchhiker]

I think that Roland is part of a universal machine (for lack of a better word) that keeps the beams intact. Without Roland, the beams would decay and all words would crumble. Unless CK were to take over, and then ... well the worlds I do not think would decay but would change for a mad man would be behind the wheel.

[Kyonn]

Just because King shows us Roland in the desert doesn't mean he started back over there. In fact have the Horn implies that he did not.

We first meet Roland in the desert but we know his quest did not began there, that's just where King decides to start the tale and I think this cycle is no different. Personally I believe that Rolands lives his whole life over or at least from the point when he first exited the wizards glass and started his quest for the tower.



Thanks for this post. I never thought of it that way but it makes total sense. Just because King has him in the desert in the loop doesn't mean he started over there. Just because he opened the door to the desert doesn't mean he was really starting there. Interesting theory. I'm in the middle of rereading DT7 (I have the dreaded readers block at the moment) but I will hopefully have fresh insight upon finishing this reread.

Well just before Roland enters his last door, the book states (thru Roland) that he does go into the desert each time and for a specific reason too.

The book also says:

“He shifted his gunna from one shoulder to the other, then touched the horn that rode on his belt behind the gun on his right hip. The ancient brass horn had once been blown by Arthur Eld himself, or so the story did say. Roland had given it to Curthbert Allgood at Jericho Hill, and when Cuthbert fell, Roland had paused just long enough to pick it up again, knocking the deathdust of that place from its throat”

How was he able to pick up the horn if he started back in the desert?

[Wuducynn]

How was he able to pick up the horn if he started back in the desert?

My theory is that each time he goes into the Tower and gets closer to being able to go into the room at the top of the Tower, he is changing his life and his memory of things that happened change, like this instance. Before he didn't have the Horn of Eld, he had left it there, but now as a gift from Gan he actually picked it up.

[Kyonn]

How was he able to pick up the horn if he started back in the desert?

My theory is that each time he goes into the Tower and gets closer to being able to go into the room at the top of the Tower, he is changing his life and his memory of things that happened change, like this instance. Before he didn't have the Horn of Eld, he had left it there, but now as a gift from Gan he actually picked it up.

I still disagree.

I think the whole point is that Roland needs to make the right decision on his own of his own free will. If Gan made the decisions for him (gifted things to him) then Roland could never truly learn thus never have any hope for real salvation.

If Gan were willing to give things to Roland how would he earn them or why would he need to punished in the first place.

[MonteGss]

Just because King shows us Roland in the desert doesn't mean he started back over there. In fact have the Horn implies that he did not.



Thanks for this post. I never thought of it that way but it makes total sense. Just because King has him in the desert in the loop doesn't mean he started over there. Just because he opened the door to the desert doesn't mean he was really starting there. Interesting theory. I'm in the middle of rereading DT7 (I have the dreaded readers block at the moment) but I will hopefully have fresh insight upon finishing this reread.


Well just before Roland enters his last door, the book states (thru Roland) that he does go into the desert each time and for a specific reason too.


The book also says:

“He shifted his gunna from one shoulder to the other, then touched the horn that rode on his belt behind the gun on his right hip. The ancient brass horn had once been blown by Arthur Eld himself, or so the story did say. Roland had given it to Curthbert Allgood at Jericho Hill, and when Cuthbert fell, Roland had paused just long enough to pick it up again, knocking the deathdust of that place from its throat”

How was he able to pick up the horn if he started back in the desert?

There is a specific reason he starts at the desert. There is a reason Gan throws him back there.

This passage is from The Dark Tower and I cannot say it better:

"How many times had he climbed these stairs only to find himself peeled back, curved back, turned back? Not to the beginning, but to that moment in the Mohaine Desert when he had finally understood that his thoughtless, questionless quest would ultimately succeed?

As far as how he has the horn, I agree with CK on his interpretation. It is a gift from Gan basically.

[obscurejude]

Good point Monte. We've always got to address the cycle question with why the desert specifically?

[Wuducynn]

I still disagree.

I think the whole point is that Roland needs to make the right decision on his own of his own free will. If Gan made the decisions for him (gifted things to him) then Roland could never truly learn thus never have any hope for real salvation.

If Gan were willing to give things to Roland how would he earn them or why would he need to punished in the first place.

Who said anything about Gan making his decisions for him? Not me. He has to make his own decisions to sucessfully make it to the Tower.

[Kyonn]

I still disagree.

I think the whole point is that Roland needs to make the right decision on his own of his own free will. If Gan made the decisions for him (gifted things to him) then Roland could never truly learn thus never have any hope for real salvation.

If Gan were willing to give things to Roland how would he earn them or why would he need to punished in the first place.

Who said anything about Gan making his decisions for him? Not me. He has to make his own decisions to sucessfully make it to the Tower.

What I meant was that if the horn, as well as the memory of picking it up, was a gift from Gan then someone else (Gan) made the decision to pause and pick up the horn not Roland, thus Roland didn't really learn anything himself.

I guess I just need to read book 7 over again.

[obscurejude]

Kyonn, those are legitimate points and we always end up talking about them around here. Divine and human agency are certainly in the series, and neither are very definitive at points. You are certainly justified in trying to bring them out. :thumbsup:

[MonteGss]

But I see it as a gift from Gan because of what he learned before he entered the Tower. All that he learned about love before the last door was the reason for the gift.

[obscurejude]

Monte, case in point.

[Kyonn]

I guess we could have a whole debate about freewill and determinism but I rather not.

One thing that does interest me in the time nature of the cycle. When Roland is transported back to the desert is he just physically transported and had his memory wiped, thus each journey to the Tower would have a different set of circumstances and a new cast character (no Jake, Eddie and Susannah). Or does he get transported back in time a relive the whole thing over again

We know the cycle we read was not Roland’s first time through, but only the cycle that was channeled though the writer Stephen King. Maybe each cycle is different with a new set of circumstances and since it takes place in a different time period relative to true earth were time onlu moves one way, thus a new writer would channel the story in a different time period.

[MonteGss]

I guess we could have a whole debate about freewill and determinism but I rather not.

One thing that does interest me in the time nature of the cycle. When Roland is transported back to the desert is he just physically transported and had his memory wiped, thus each journey to the Tower would have a different set of circumstances and a new cast character (no Jake, Eddie and Susannah). Or does he get transported back in time a relive the whole thing over again

We know the cycle we read was not Roland’s first time through, but only the cycle that was channeled though the writer Stephen King. Maybe each cycle is different with a new set of circumstances and since it takes place in a different time period relative to true earth were time onlu moves one way, thus a new writer would channel the story in a different time period.

Wow Kyonn, that is a good theory! I like it! :thumbsup:
I'm glad there are some cool Tower Junkies around here. :cool:

[obscurejude]

I guess we could have a whole debate about freewill and determinism but I rather not.

One thing that does interest me in the time nature of the cycle. When Roland is transported back to the desert is he just physically transported and had his memory wiped, thus each journey to the Tower would have a different set of circumstances and a new cast character (no Jake, Eddie and Susannah). Or does he get transported back in time a relive the whole thing over again

We know the cycle we read was not Roland’s first time through, but only the cycle that was channeled though the writer Stephen King. Maybe each cycle is different with a new set of circumstances and since it takes place in a different time period relative to true earth were time onlu moves one way, thus a new writer would channel the story in a different time period.

I'd like to respond, but I'm really not following you. Does your second paragraph follow the argument of your latter point in paragraph 1 or the former?

[Kyonn]

I guess we could have a whole debate about freewill and determinism but I rather not.

One thing that does interest me in the time nature of the cycle. When Roland is transported back to the desert is he just physically transported and had his memory wiped, thus each journey to the Tower would have a different set of circumstances and a new cast character (no Jake, Eddie and Susannah). Or does he get transported back in time a relive the whole thing over again

We know the cycle we read was not Roland’s first time through, but only the cycle that was channeled though the writer Stephen King. Maybe each cycle is different with a new set of circumstances and since it takes place in a different time period relative to true earth were time onlu moves one way, thus a new writer would channel the story in a different time period.

I'd like to respond, but I'm really not following you. Does your second paragraph follow the argument of your latter point in paragraph 1 or the former?


Sorry for it being so poorly worded, but I just hacked it out without editing it for clarity. If by first paragrah you mean the part about freewill then nno, it does not have anything to do with the rest of the post.

[jayson]

One thing that does interest me in the time nature of the cycle. When Roland is transported back to the desert is he just physically transported and had his memory wiped, thus each journey to the Tower would have a different set of circumstances and a new cast character (no Jake, Eddie and Susannah). Or does he get transported back in time a relive the whole thing over again


I think it is closer to the former. I don't like seeing the Tower as a big ashy reset button. Also, this would mean the cycles are not the same, which I also agree with.



We know the cycle we read was not Roland’s first time through, but only the cycle that was channeled though the writer Stephen King. Maybe each cycle is different with a new set of circumstances and since it takes place in a different time period relative to true earth were time onlu moves one way, thus a new writer would channel the story in a different time period.

VERY interesting theory.

[Woofer]

We know the cycle we read was not Roland’s first time through, but only the cycle that was channeled though the writer Stephen King. Maybe each cycle is different with a new set of circumstances and since it takes place in a different time period relative to true earth were time onlu moves one way, thus a new writer would channel the story in a different time period.

VERY interesting theory.

Like Browning's poem? :innocent:

[MonteGss]

That is an awesome point. Browning was channeled one time (or more, who knows?) and King also. Actually doesn't Book 7 say as much at some point? I seem to remember this.
Great idea though. :)

[Childe 007]

Yes... King's inclusion at the end of Browning's poem I thought at the time suggested that Browning may have penned "the final cycle."

[sarah]

That's is how I saw it. That this was the second to last time to the top of the Tower and the last time was the poem. At least that is what I hope for our beloved Roland. Let him find peace at the top of the Tower and be done with it.

Letti made a post months ago about Roland having to always go through the loop because he is what helps the Tower stay up. He is part of the Tower. I can't remember her specifics but I thought that was a good point.

[fernandito]

...the last time was the poem. At least that is what I hope for our beloved Roland. Let him find peace...


...he is what helps the Tower stay up. He is part of the Tower...

But if Roland is a part of the Tower in the sense that you're describing, wouldn't that imply that he will never find rest/peace?

[Wuducynn]

But if Roland is a part of the Tower in the sense that you're describing, wouldn't that imply that he will never find rest/peace?

And that is exactly what Sarah's opinion is too.

[fernandito]

Thanks Sarah. :)

[Wuducynn]

Well shes already said it in other posts, fuck-face.

[fernandito]

I believe you, fuck face. :)

[Wuducynn]

Who let you out of your cage anyway? Shouldn't you be begging for scraps and pissing yourself?

[Storyslinger]

Alright you two, don't make me put my foot down.

[Wuducynn]

Alright you two, don't make me put my foot down.


Ohhhh shit! What would that entail!? :thumbsup:

[Storyslinger]

Alright you two, don't make me put my foot down.


Ohhhh shit! What would that entail!? :thumbsup:

My foot hitting the ground. *shrugs* :lol:

[FatherofRoland]

I've never message boarded on the Dark Tower before. I finished the series this past December. I always saw the books in college and wanted to start it but finally got around to it last year (6 yrs after graduating from college). I read it religiously, and I am not a big reader, although I go through streaks of books vs lots of TV.

What do people think about the ending? My first impression to be honest, is that I should have listened to King's warning not to read it because the journey is the big thing. I really wanted to see or have Roland get to the top of the tower and have something big happen or profound or, I guess, final, whether it be his death and then going back to being with Susan in an afterlife (which would probably be to happy of an ending for King) or something bad like him just dying or seeing the end of the world or something else. What happened was just a recycling of the whole story, which is frustrating and almost the worst possible ending (for Roland, not necessarily for the story) there could be. So I guess King wrote,to me, the worst scenario, even worse than dying.

The more I thought about it. I came to accept it and like it. My view point on stories or movies is not to get angry because they didn't turn out like I wanted it to or would have made it, but to accept it as the way it is and try to understand. Because that is how life is, things don't work out the way you want, they just happen and you deal with it, unpredictably. The best movies are unpredictable like life.

Anywho, I felt the ending was like ka....a wheel that turns and comes back again. But then I thought maybe he will eventually complete his task because he now has the horn and somehow that will make a difference in how things play out. Or maybe this is like the 100th time he has done it and it will never end (most disheartening but probably most accurate). Or maybe our version was his first trip and it ends with the 2nd starting.

What do other people think?

[Daghain]

Hey, welcome to the site, FatherofRoland!

The first time I read the ending, I was in complete and total shock. I totally did not see it coming. After thinking about it, however, I decided it was the best way to end it - it brings everything around in a circle (ka like a wheel) and means the story really doesn't end, at least as far as we know.

[Letti]

Welcome! :rose:

For my part I did love the ending. It was touching and well done.
Have you reread the books? If you haven't you should try to find some time to do it because it will rock and you will realise even more amazing things about the series.

[ManOfWesternesse]

Welcome FatherofRoland - & well posted.
Yes, I love the ending (non-ending / never-ending?), and as Letti says, it only improves with each re-read.

[obscurejude]

I actually saw the ending coming and was not surprised in the least. I thought it was fitting, and given its nature, it has provided a lot of vitality for this site (because we keep talking about it and what it means and how it causes us to re-interpret the rest of the series etc...)

Welcome, FatherofRoland. Have a look around, there are several threads dedicated to aspects of the ending. Good to have you. :)

[Storyslinger]

I was one of those that had to read the ending no matter what. When it comes to Roland or his ka-tet, if there are words written about them, I will read it no matter the cost. I was shocked at first, but then grew to like the ending. Welcome to the site.

[FatherofRoland]

I have reread The Gunslinger. There are parts that obviously made a lot more sense. I never read the original, though. The version I had was one the King went back and "finished". I will have to look for an original version and see what the difference is.

Sometimes I think King ran out of ideas and just decided to make it cyclical.

So do people think it is a continuous circle and what we read was just one of the times, or do you think eventually it will end. THe fact that he has the horn at the end makes me think something is a little different each time. OR maybe the quest ends when Roland decides not to keep going for it and to settle down.

[Wuducynn]

The more I thought about it. I came to accept it and like it. My view point on stories or movies is not to get angry because they didn't turn out like I wanted it to or would have made it, but to accept it as the way it is and try to understand. Because that is how life is, things don't work out the way you want, they just happen and you deal with it, unpredictably. The best movies are unpredictable like life.

Very wise and understanding attitude to have. I like that.



Anywho, I felt the ending was like ka....a wheel that turns and comes back again. But then I thought maybe he will eventually complete his task because he now has the horn and somehow that will make a difference in how things play out. Or maybe this is like the 100th time he has done it and it will never end (most disheartening but probably most accurate). Or maybe our version was his first trip and it ends with the 2nd starting.

What do other people think?

I think it will end for him one way or the other. Maybe he won't succeed and the multiverse will go back to the Discordia it came from?

[MonteGss]

Sorry to be such a party-pooper.....but, don't we have about a billion other "DT ending" threads? I'm sure this can be merged...no?

No offense to you at all, sai FatherofRoland. :grouphug:

[Erin]

Monte is right. Mergey merge merge!

Interesting observations FatherofRoland. Welcome to the site. :D

[obscurejude]

Thanks Erin. :thumbsup:

[Wuducynn]

Mmmmm Erin gives great merge..

[Erin]

:lol: You know it.

[FatherofRoland]

I was one of those that had to read the ending no matter what. When it comes to Roland or his ka-tet, if there are words written about them, I will read it no matter the cost. I was shocked at first, but then grew to like the ending. Welcome to the site.

I looked for an ending message and couldn't find it but thanks for putting it in the right place. I'm sure I will never have problems finding it again?

Kudos to you "storyslinger" for showing such courage in reading books no matter what the cost. I am forever entertained by overthetop, geeky melodrama. Just please don't jump off any dark towers because the story may not end for you the same way.

I've read what some people have said, and I see how it is like ka, going around and coming back to the place it started, but.....

It wasn't a perfect circle because Roland started off at a beginning point and somehow walked into this circle. When was the first time he started into the desert chasing the Man in Black. How did he go from the Baronies to the big war on that hill (that I can't recall the name of now) to chasing the Man in Black? There is a huge chunk of untold story.

It is not a big circle because then Roland would have gone back to his birth. His circle jumps somewhere in the middle and is stuck there. Why is it stuck there? Why is that the point that he keeps coming back to?

Also, the timing of things bug me. Susannah is from the 60s, Jake the 70s and Eddie the 80s, and 9/11 has a little part to play, as well as, the Bo RedSox and Father Callahan. The Keystone world is said to continue moving forward. So when Roland goes back does he actually go back in time to the Keystone world too? Does he keep doing this and throughout hx from the 1800s on through the 2200s he will keep this ka rolling? Does he not always meet the same 3 that were drawn to him?

I'm just curious what others who have read this think about these things.

[Jean]

FatherofRoland: please look around, you might find specific threads where the questions you have raised are being discussed.

[Storyslinger]

I was one of those that had to read the ending no matter what. When it comes to Roland or his ka-tet, if there are words written about them, I will read it no matter the cost. I was shocked at first, but then grew to like the ending. Welcome to the site.
Kudos to you "storyslinger" for showing such courage in reading books no matter what the cost. I am forever entertained by overthetop, geeky melodrama. Just please don't jump off any dark towers because the story may not end for you the same way.

Why? Do you happen to know any towers I could take a leap from? It's always worth a try.8)

[Wuducynn]

And I have JUST the parachute for you to use too!

[Storyslinger]

And I have JUST the parachute for you to use too!

It it one of those that has a big hole in the middle! :excited:

[Wuducynn]

And I have JUST the parachute for you to use too!

It it one of those that has a big hole in the middle! :excited:

How did you guess? It gives you extra speed...

[Storyslinger]

Just luck.

[glm]

So if Roland improves on his quest somehow during each cycle . . .. . . than how would you imagine Roland on his first cycle.

[MonteGss]

Hello. Welcome and nice idea for a thread. However, be sure to read posting and spoiler guidelines listed in relevant forums. Here are some examples:

Content which would give away the end of the series MUST be marked with Spoiler Tags

Threads which allow spoilers to go unmarked are permissible, if the thread is labelled in its title as a Spoiler Thread (ex- Thread title: Asfdglsajf ***SPOILERS), but the topic must be tagged in its first post with the radioactive post icon.

For next time. :)

[glm]

I'll make sure to do it next time.

[Hannah]

Hi glm, I edited the title of your thread a little bit, and marked it for spoilers. If you'd like it titled anything different, please let me know.

Thanks, and welcome to the site!

[sarah]

Hi glm. Good question. I'm having a hard time seeing the first time around because of how it was this time around. I tend to just see this version. I guess I need to stretch my imagination a bit. :lol:

[Wuducynn]

Magic! :o

[mia/susannah]

I will have to think about this question. I cannot picture how Roland would be the first time around right now.

[Wuducynn]

Assuming that the loop that we read about him on, isn't the first time, I guess I picutre his first loop as much less introspective and not doing things like sacrificing himself for Jake in Maine, not thinking about the Horn of Eld and whether it was as important as his guns.

[nategator]

One thing that I remember hoping for after the book ended was whether King, since he loves meta-fiction, etc. was leaving himself an opening to return back to the DT series. Much like Gunslinger, where King decided to go back and add a bunch of content, King could throw in 20-30 pages of material per book adding some changes with the horn and show how it culminates in a different -- and perhaps more final -- ending. This would be satisfying for the fans in seeing how a subtle difference could have massive consequences plus would allow King to republish every book and make a lot of $$$. He could also substantially revise Susannah and DT, which seemed a little rushed due to King's brush with death. I don't know, probably wishful thinking...but what do you guys think?

[alinda]

King has said no , so I think I'll go with that answer :nope:

[mia/susannah]

Welcome nategator, I don't think King will be writing any more on the Dark Tower series. I am kind of sad about it but I understand as well

[alinda]

I had not noticed your post count, sorry nategator...
http://ts2.images.live.com/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1568090636237&id=ddf5d6c319ebfbb6fe7f4733a6af209e

[nategator]

I had not noticed your post count, sorry nategator...
http://ts2.images.live.com/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1568090636237&id=ddf5d6c319ebfbb6fe7f4733a6af209e

cry your pardon. Where did King say no?

[ATG]

I agree with your premise that it's not impossible. HE said he would rewrite them all, and who knows what that may lead to?

And welcome to the site nategator!

[alinda]

I'm not sure where, but I felt completely secure in this knowledge
untill you questioned it. I'm not sure how to respond...I hope your
right? Although for me it was the perfect ending, the only one.

[Wuducynn]

If he was going to do a re-write of the series, from what Ms. Mod says over on the SK.Com message board, it would be books 1 -3. Not the ending.

[Rjeso]

Dammit, those are the good ones! Leave them be!

[Wuducynn]

I meant 2 - 3. "Good ones". :rolleyes: They're all great.

[Rjeso]

Eh, my interest tails off during WotC, and never comes back fully after that. I still like them, but they don't captivate me like the first 4 1/2 do. Those I can reread over and over.

[Wuducynn]

While I can re-read the whole series over and over. Which I am in the midst of at the moment.

[alinda]

Oh I am sure I didnt know any of that, thanks for setting me straight.
Altho' I have no doubt I'd buy the books I personally dont feel any re-write is needed.

[Brainslinger]

If King does do any rewrites (which I have my doubts), he would probably need to do Wizard and Glass too. He still thinks of Walter and Marten as separate people there, and there are also minor errors where Roland and Eddie keep swapping guns!

As for rewriting the rest... I doubt that will happen. I would love it if he were to fill in a few holes, things that were left unexplained. Not that everything need be explained, it's good to leave some mystery, but there are things here and there which have an impact on the plot.

One example would be that note which Calvin Tower found in his safe. It really bugged me that we never found out who sent that note, it just came out of nowhere.

There are some times that such things work. For example when useful items are found in the vacant lot near the rose such as Jake's key and the bowling bag/turtle can-tah later. I just figured, the Rose is the Tower, and can therefore generate tools required by the ka-tet. Besides the whole tone of those scenes (be it Jake's first experience at the Lot or the rest of the ka-tet minus Susannah/Mia) was magical, it felt right that such things could happen.

But the note in the safe? That I think should have had some explanation. After all The Writer stated in the book that he can only send things directly once, therefore the explanation should come from within the story not just because the writer put it there. (Actually King sends twice, but the second was something earned as a result of being saved by the ka-tet.)

I wonder if it was intentional on King's part or if he simply forgot in his rush to get the last books done. Not that I dislike the last books as a whole, I thought they had great moments.

There are other things which I disliked in the last book, but I don't think King should necessarily change them. For example, the way the various villains were depicted. I'd love to read a book where Walter played a bigger role in the end game, or Mordred didn't suddenly get sick from eating sickly meat. However, where those things are concerned it seems clear King just didn't see things that way, and it wouldn't be fair to expect him to change things for the readers' whim. (Of course if he changed his mind concerning Walter I'd really love to read that version, although I'd accept the fate of the other villains. I'd just count the two versions as occurring in different cycles. ;) )

A bit more explanation as to why things turned out that way would be nice though. I.e. why Walter's foreshadowing in Wizard and Glass was not the prophesy it appeared, why the Red King the lord of glamour needed to rely on technical items like sneeches to attack Roland etc.

I.e. don't change those things, just explain them a bit better.

[CyberGhostface]

I'd like it if he rewrote the last book too, but I'm not holding my breath. King has said he had plans of revising the entire series in the future, but even if he did do that, I don't think there's going to be any substantial changes in terms of plot. Knowing him, it'd probably just have a lot of extra calla-speak and more 'foreshadowing'.

[eldsai]

I totally agree Kyonn--very well said too.

Welcome to the site

Thanks

I would like to add that not only is Roland being punished but we the readers are being punished in a metatextual way.

At the beginning of the last section King warns us to leave Roland’s tale at the door to the Dark Tower and just accept that he made it. King goes on to tell us that some people can never enjoy things in life and that it’s the journey not the destination that’s important, he uses the analogy with sex, how the true joy of lovemaking is the act and not the climax

Those of us who read on despite King’s warnings are “punished” with an ending that he knew most of us would find unsatisfying. To be honest I was pissed with the ending at first, thinking it was all to cruel a fate for Roland but after typing these few paragraph and reading what you others have written on here I now agree when sai King wrote “I wasn’t crazy about the ending either, if you want to know the truth, but it’s the right ending”

I only wish I could have stopped at what I like to call the “ninth gate” ending when Roland enters the Tower (if you’ve seen the movie you’ll understand why I call it that) but like Roland nothing (even sai King’s warning that it was a bad idea) would stop me seeing my little quest to the end.


so basically by reading on we all fell into the trap of "going for the tower" just like Roland did. Its kind of neat how King did that.

but being a book that I paid for Im obviously going to read every word.

[Kyonn]

I totally agree Kyonn--very well said too.

Welcome to the site

Thanks

I would like to add that not only is Roland being punished but we the readers are being punished in a metatextual way.

At the beginning of the last section King warns us to leave Roland’s tale at the door to the Dark Tower and just accept that he made it. King goes on to tell us that some people can never enjoy things in life and that it’s the journey not the destination that’s important, he uses the analogy with sex, how the true joy of lovemaking is the act and not the climax

Those of us who read on despite King’s warnings are “punished” with an ending that he knew most of us would find unsatisfying. To be honest I was pissed with the ending at first, thinking it was all to cruel a fate for Roland but after typing these few paragraph and reading what you others have written on here I now agree when sai King wrote “I wasn’t crazy about the ending either, if you want to know the truth, but it’s the right ending”

I only wish I could have stopped at what I like to call the “ninth gate” ending when Roland enters the Tower (if you’ve seen the movie you’ll understand why I call it that) but like Roland nothing (even sai King’s warning that it was a bad idea) would stop me seeing my little quest to the end.


so basically by reading on we all fell into the trap of "going for the tower" just like Roland did. Its kind of neat how King did that.

but being a book that I paid for Im obviously going to read every word.

So true.

But its just like when the leaders of the Tet corp. told Roland that he had saved the Tower and that he should stop his quest because it would not end well.

Just like Roland had come to far to stop, the same was also true for us the reader.

[John_and_Yoko]

I voted "Completely satisfied."

Yeah, there's no happy ending for Roland, nor should there be. He's not that kind of hero. He's so focused on one thing that he loses sight of all else, and even when given opportunities to reform, he doesn't always take them.

I honestly can't think of a better way to end it--besides, as long as it is, the whole series is too short to really do justice to the world Stephen King has described (which is why I'm glad for all the other, related books that I've been reading).

Besides, that ending moved me, and that's all I'm looking for in a story--I try not to nitpick and let things bother me, unless they're so blatantly nonsensical that they distract me from the emotion of the piece, and I didn't get that with the ending.

I am so grateful for having had the opportunity to experience Roland's journey to the Dark Tower, and--like Roland--I will return to it someday. :D

[MonteGss]

Yes!!! Another one! Glad you liked it! :)

[John_and_Yoko]

Heaviness. That's really the best way I can describe it. A tugging at my heartstrings. Just--how the same sentence can mean two so very different things.... It's like a children's story, really, where the same song or poem from the beginning is repeated at the end.

[John_and_Yoko]

Yes!!! Another one! Glad you liked it! :)

Me too! Talk about a birthday present (and it only took me 4 1/2 months to finish, including non-Dark Tower books related to the series)! :D

The Dark Tower is without a doubt Stephen King's masterpiece, and my only hope is that it comes to pervade our culture in the way it deserves to. A true story to end all stories.

And the best part is that I can go back and visit my old friends again whenever I'd like. :D

[Wuducynn]

The Dark Tower is without a doubt Stephen King's masterpiece, and my only hope is that it comes to pervade our culture in the way it deserves to. A true story to end all stories.



QUOTED FOR TRUTH :harrier:

[Mark]

I voted number 4. I didn't like Flaggs death(see everyone else's reasons), and i was spoiled by someone telling me Roland and CK had a fight, when i was told this, i believed a full on, face to face blasting fight inside the tower.

I understand the loop was the only way to end it, but, like Feev said in his first post, i needed closure, i want to know what's up there. I know this would upset some people, but, to me, it wouldn't, this is me being selfish i know but i really wanted to see what was up there, what it looked like. I wasn't impressed that i never got to know, because that denies me the closure i want, but then again, this means the journey is unendable, which means more re-reads.

[Aballah]

I thought the shouting of the names and the path up the tower and finally the door at the top was all magnificently done. I do wish CK's and RF's endings were a bit grander. And I never really liked Patrick, it was too sudden for him to suddenly show up and be the only one with Roland. I wish Roland had gotten there alone. But I was satisfied with the Coda.

[Letti]

Somehow I wasn't fond of Patrick either but I think I couldn't spend enough time with him to open my heart for him.

[Jean]

Somehow I wasn't fond of PAtrick either but I think I couldn't spend enough time with him to open my heart for him.
this is a very good observation. It implies that if you had spent more time with him, you could have opened your heart; thus, that he was a viable character, not a tool created by Mr.King ad hoc to facilitate the ending. I am inclined to feel the same.

[Jon]

I wanted a Roland/Flagg showdown or something like that. But the way Flagg bought the farm sucked...very lame.

[Wuducynn]

I feel your pain, Jon. http://www.theirishcurse.com/Bill_Clinton.jpg

[Jean]

et tu, Brutus???

[Wuducynn]

No actually, I was just messing with Jon. I wasn't expecting things to happen in any particular way and I didn't have all these "Oh it must happen" kind of things built up in my mind.

[Brice]

Nor did I. I went in with no expectations, only excitement for more DT.

[Brice]

Well to be perfectly honest I had an ear to ear smile and was crying at the same time. :lol: Explaining just how I felt is beyond me.

[Brainslinger]

I half expected the last line, mainly because I'd read speculations on dt.net as that's what would happen. Along with the so called 'loop theory'.

It still gave me a thrill when I read it though.

[Brainslinger]

I remember seeing many theories concerning the end on Dt.net, and one of them was the loop. On reading that I thought "I hope that doesn't happen."

Funny thing is, when it did, I rather liked it. Mainly because of the sense of hope that was included with it: the inclusion of the horn.

So I am satisfied with the very end.

I'm not satisfied with the way the baddies were dealt with. I didn't mind the way The Crimson King himself was defeated, but I would have preferred a bit more explanation as to why he had to rely on sneeches to do his work. I've seen many theories, and made a couple myself, but I think this is something that should have been spelled out in the book. Not everything, need be, but stating that he can kill with a thought, and has his own personal tornado, (and this is after Roland and co had saved the beams) and then relying more or less entirely on technology... I just didn't buy it.

I'm not saying it shouldn't have happened that way, I'd just have liked a bit more explanation as to why.

As for Mordred, to be fair he wasn't defeated as easily as many state. If it wasn't for Oy, Roland would likely have been killed. It was quite a close thing in the end. I wasn't keen on the whole poisoned nag thing though.

Walter... I wish he'd had a part to play at the end. Perhaps in place of Dandelo, or at least working behind him. The fact Mordred killed him doesn't bother me too much, just how easily, and when it happened.

[Letti]

I know I am almost or absolutely alone with it but I liked Flagg's death. And you know what? Because for me it had a big message.
You can think that you are big.. and powerful.. and you can play with others' life but there is always someone who is bigger and more powerful than you and if you forget to fear everything can happen to you and your life is no more but a card-tower.
Yeah, something like this.
But I wasn't fond of his character anyway so I don't think I would have been disappointed if he had got hit by a car, either so I know my opinion is not so significant.

[Letti]

Well to be perfectly honest I had an ear to ear smile and was crying at the same time. :lol: Explaining just how I felt is beyond me.

Absolutely the same here.
And I never wanted to hug Roland as much as I wanted to at the end of the book.

[Jean]

I wonder why you know you're alone, since I was advocating approximately the same point of view on scores of pages at .net, and, although violently opposed by Cyber, I wasn't alone even then; I believe it has been expressed here by some people, too. http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wink-1.gif
I'm glad, however, to find out we're thinking along the same lines again. I hope to get back to this question soon (when I can get back to everything else) http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

[Jean]

yes... I think Brice managed to capture the essense of what I was feeling, too

[Unfound One]

Yes, yes! Brice, that's perfect.
For me it was frustration and denial, then an understanding that the ending was perfect.
Hence, the crying and smiling. :)

[Letti]

And somehow I was sooo proud of Roland.

[Letti]

If King rewrites the last book (and if he makes and changes about the main points) I am not gonna read it.
Anyway I don't think he will.

[Jean]

oh, I will read it. Out of interest for Sai King and his developments, not for the Dark Tower. The Dark Tower story for me is concluded.

[Letti]

Maybe you say it because you haven't read the revised Gunslinger yet. I can become really closed and stubborn if someone tries to change about something I love a lot and I feel I belong to.
So it doesn't matter how much it will make me curious I won't read it.

[Wuducynn]

You can think that you are big.. and powerful.. and you can play with others' life but there is always someone who is bigger and more powerful than you and if you forget to fear everything can happen to you and your life is no more but a card-tower.


I strongly agree Letti. Very well put.

[obscurejude]

Assuming that the loop that we read about him on, isn't the first time, I guess I picutre his first loop as much less introspective and not doing things like sacrificing himself for Jake in Maine, not thinking about the Horn of Eld and whether it was as important as his guns.

What's confusing is that we have Wizard and Glass, and Roland seems like a pretty introspective lad (at least for 14). Its a hard question to answer.

[Wuducynn]

hey, man. May i have a question? May i post a message to you?

No.

[obscurejude]

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wink-1.gif
I'm glad, however, to find out we're thinking along the same lines again. I hope to get back to this question soon (when I can get back to everything else) http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

I think I speak for many when I say how much we miss the bear's opinions on this and all things. Return when you can Jean, I'll always look forward to reading what you have to say about anything.

[Brainslinger]

I know I am almost or absolutely alone with it but I liked Flagg's death. And you know what? Because for me it had a big message.
You can think that you are big.. and powerful.. and you can play with others' life but there is always someone who is bigger and more powerful than you and if you forget to fear everything can happen to you and your life is no more but a card-tower.

Whilst I disliked his fate... or rather when it happened (not so much how) you make a very good point there.



But I wasn't fond of his character anyway so I don't think I would have been disappointed if he had got hit by a car, either so I know my opinion is not so significant.

Could just as well say, my opinion in disliking his fate is insignificant cos I like Flagg.

Without opinions our discussions wouldn't go far would they?

[Indigo_Seven]

I felt that Ka has treated him very badly (as well as making no sense, as this means the Tower takes itself from safety into danger again, assuming the events really happened).

I also felt satisfied, as the open ending allowed me to end the story as I would like.

[Merlin1958]

I voted satisfied with major issues. However when I first finished it I was ROYALLY PISSED. You have to understand I began reading it when SK started writing it - 30yrs ago. I had to deal with the long hiatus' between Tome's, the statements from SK that he may never finish it and all that material that kept showing up in his other stories. However with a re-read, time passed and the comic ARC I have come to terms with it for the most part.

Perhaps the biggest issue I have is his dismissal of the "connecting" books in DT7. I mean finally getting the last 3 books in quick order I expected alot of that stuff to have story line tie-ins especially Talisman, Black House, Tyler Marshall and IT to name a few. I mean I was reading those stories the same way you searched Beatle lyrics and played their records backwards like there was some all encompassing mystery. For the Calvin's to just toss all that away just seemed like a big letdown IMHO

[Ka-tet]

I was completely satisfied with the ending, rolands journey ended as it should have. With no end.

And one day there will be, but we wont read of it, and i like that because it give me infinite room to think about what will happen next. And not knowing that only increases the ammount that i think about it.

There was no end to the dark tower for me, and i am greatful.

[Bama71]

I think that ending is really the only ending it could have. Remember, even in DT I, The Man In Black says, "Death, but for not for you, Gunslinger." At the time, I figured that only Roland would reach the Tower. Then, Roland thinks about Eld's Horn, and how it would be the work of two seconds to pick it up but doesn't. Then, the end of DT VII, when the Tower pushes him back in time to the Mohaine desert on the trail of the Man In Black, he has the horn. It locked into place for me that Roland was being forced to make his quest again and again to attone for his wrongdoings, and each time he gets a chance to change his outcome, eventually righting all wrongs and allowing him to reach the clearing at the end of the path. King himself even refered to the books as a 'cycle' even before the last two books were published. I really do hope he doesn't add any extra material. It's a masterful and powerful story, and I'm satisfied with the ending.

[SaiCmont19]

The first time I read them my exact thought was, "That's it?"

But I've reread them a few times now and the ending makes me happier...

It makes you think :orely:

[razz]

the first thing i felt was depression. it's all over. nothing else to read. i should go cry and cut myself.

[Ka-tet]

Understanding.

[alinda]

*I love that line*

[The Lady of Shadows]

I am still not over the first time I read the ending. I don't think I ever will be.

i think this is perfect. i've read this series, what, four times now (not counting the rereads as each book was published b/c i'm ocd that way) and i still remember how i felt the first time i finished vii - how i sat there with the book in my hands, staring at the sentence, wondering, crying, trying desperately not to cry on the book.

[Letti]

Why did you try not to cry? I was crying so happily and freely.

[The Lady of Shadows]

Why did you try not to cry? I was crying so happily and freely.

oh, i was bawling like a 7 month old. i was trying not to cry on my book. it was after all a first edition. :)

[velanthis]

I finished the last book about 30-40 minutes ago, had dinner and I have to say I'm absolutely mind blown.:nope: The ending was very surprising but please look ar my version of it.

They only thing that changed this time was the Horn of Eld. The tower changed it. It made it so that he picked it up on Jericho hill. It was also mentioned that he had a possible route for salvation (heaven) this time. I think it will be like that because of the horn-look at it this way.
He killed many innocents in Tull. Thats because they went crazy. What if blowing the horn took away their madness and the demon within Silvia? What if this time he didn't have sex with Allie. What if, this time somehow he found a way to save Jake and not kill him. This time he helps Eddie in the right way, he doesn't lose his fingers, escaped Shardik without killing him, he helps the old people like Aunt Talitha in the wastelands, this time he didn't have sex with the demon so to prevent Mordreds birth (or at least uses the horn in some way to convince mordred his only blood son to join him). What if this time, he blows the horn to stop the driver from nearly killing King:rose: and save Eddie before he dies. Maybe this time he saved himself from falling into Dandelo's trap using the horn and this time Suzannah and Eddie and Jake and Oy all go to the end (maybe even Callahan). Maybe in the end he blows the horn to stop the voices calling him into the tower (even though it probably will be really hard) and this time he reached the top.

[razz]

i agree this may very well be possible, but htere are many thread where we've dicussed this.

[velanthis]

I think if he is finally able to resist that sound calling him to the Dark Tower in the end, (oh by the way, he doesn't have sex with the married women Mrs. Tassenbaum bitch that she is)[and idiot that he was] than he will finally reach the top. If the Horn isn't hard to blow he'll probably go through the cycle again (still with the horn) until he gets it completely right. Maybe it's what SLK really anted to say-it's about the journey not the end, because the end (the dark tower) was inevitable but he had to use the right means to get there. Maybe when he gets it completely right they will ALL get to go there.

[velanthis]

lol I've got no patience to go back and look at all of those. please leave a comment!

[velanthis]

what I'm trying to say is it will keep sending him back until he finally gets it completely right. than he will truly find out what is beyond.

[Letti]

Great to see you here, velanthis. And yes, razz is right we have many threads about this topic and I am sure you will be happy to see that manym people think this way in the big world.
Anyway, for my part, I don't think that the next loop will be Roland's last one but he is getting closer to break the loop every time.

[Babymordred121]

Yada yada yada. Anyway you look at it, he was still a demigod of chaos and he was still defeated by a freakin' eraser. It was horrific, and not in a good way.

[airgirl]

I also voted completly satisfied with the end, and agree with the others who voted this way. I was totally relieved that Suze met up with the other Eddie and Jake in NY, I wanted some sort of happiness for these 3 for what they went through, because Roland was not given the happy ending and closure that many hoped for. I was very sad about Oy's fate - I would have liked to see him re-united with Jake, and not as a dog but as himself. Even though SK said some version of Oy would show up in that world eventually, I would have liked him to have a happy ending for all his bravery.

[LadyHitchhiker]

I'm beginning to think this story was more about the journey than the ending...

[LadyHitchhiker]

I definitely agree.. it is a journey I wouldn't mind reading again at all, even if it changed..

[Jean]

I also voted completly satisfied with the end, and agree with the others who voted this way. I was totally relieved that Suze met up with the other Eddie and Jake in NY, I wanted some sort of happiness for these 3 for what they went through, because Roland was not given the happy ending and closure that many hoped for. I was very sad about Oy's fate - I would have liked to see him re-united with Jake, and not as a dog but as himself. Even though SK said some version of Oy would show up in that world eventually, I would have liked him to have a happy ending for all his bravery.
very well said, airgirl! I feel very much the same

[Wuducynn]

Yada yada yada. Anyway you look at it, he was still a demigod of chaos and he was still defeated by a freakin' eraser. It was horrific, and not in a good way.

Anyway YOU look at it. Why don't you keep that it in mind.

[Bumbler]

When I first finished the series, I was pretty angry. My life itself wasn't so good at the time, and having "friends" killed off probably didnt help matters. Plus, reading the afterwards immediatly after kinda seemed like a slap in the face at the time. I re-read the afterwords not long ago, and found nothing wrong with it. Actually found it kind of nice. Now, I think that the end was just right. I think it fit the rest of the adventure well.

[Tony_A]

I was completely satisfied on all levels. I did not mind the loop in the least. It fits the storyline perfectly, IMO.

It actually reminded me of the Star Trek TNG episode "Cause and Effect" (18th episode of season 5) where the Enterprise is constantly looping after being completely destroyed. After each loop, little things are remembered that eventually helps the crew ultimately avoid the catastrophe.

[Matt]

That was exactly how I described it after reading it the first time and I believe it is the case to this day.

As far as the ending, its satisfied the shit out of me on further reflection and now we know it wasn't an end at all. There is more Dark Tower stuff out in the world now than there ever has been before.

<hugs Marvel>

[Arthur Heath]

It wasnt the loop that bothered me (Tony, I completely remember and totally dig that TNG episode) but the showdown between the Crimson Kind and Roland was anti climatic. In The Gunslinger the very mention of the Crimson King (during Walter and Rolands palaver) causes an avalanche. This is way before we even had an inclination of who the CK was. In DT 7 CK lobbing sneetches at Roland, who continually shot down them down while Patrick literally erases him, was lame as hell in my opinion. After reading the series I came to the conclusion (as did Lady) that, for me, it was all about the journey. Mayhap I was disappointed because friends who had read the series said I would be 'blown away' by the ending. The only book to ever do so was Enders Game. Having said that I sure do love me some DT and DT Dot Com. Both, overall, great.

[Emsizz]

I just finished the book. For the first time. Like... right now. And let me say it was my first time reading them ALL this past month. I still don't know what I think. I think I'm pissed only about the fact that it's over. I liked the Susannah/Eddie/Jake thing, call me a sap, but I was touched by that. And Roland... well let's just say I haven't had enough time to reflect, but one thing I thought was immediately great was that Stephen King was kind of speaking to me when he ended the way he did, because even before I was halfway through the series I knew I was going to have to go back and start over immediately, if not only for the fact that I had read the non-revised gunslinger (I borrowed an old copy from a friend) and wanted to read the changes. Now, however, the reason I'm going to open that one up is because I want to go back... so badly... if only the book could change the second time through, with the horn...

[ManOfWesternesse]

Very good Emsizz.
I've re-read a few times already, and started The Gunslinger (original) again night before last - I'm off on the adventure again!

[Wuducynn]

I think I'm pissed only about the fact that it's over


There is more Dark Tower stuff out in the world now than there ever has been before.<hugs Marvel>

The journey continues and the world is expanded upon, in the graphic novels.:rock:

[velanthis]

The one thing I don't understand is why Mrs. Tassenbaum slept with him. Why is she such a bitch? I mean doesn't she have a faithful husband?

[Jean]

never thought she was a bitch... I always understood that scene the way she helped him as she could, at what I believe was the worst moment of his entire life. I mean, I believe if she could achieve the same effect with a doughnut, she would have fed him one.

[Letti]

She did it because she wanted to help him AND because she wanted him. She wanted to be close to him, to feel him and she hoped she could turn off his mind a little bit.
Anyway that woman's worth a thread.

[mia/susannah]

I think he has a few more loops but he almost has it right. He has learned to love and cherish relationships with others, he has gained a son as well

[Tony_A]

As I mentioned in the "Were you satisfied" sticky, I was satisfied on all levels. I also didn't care about the anticlimactic battle against the Crimson King as others do.

As far as the loop goes, this is something that is prevalent in the sci-fi genre. One prime example, which I also mention in my post on the sticky, is the Star Trek TNG episode "Cause and Effect" where the Enterprise is constantly looping after being completely destroyed. During each loop, the crew find themselves experiencing increasing feelings of deja-vu, ultimately resulting in the avoidance of the disaster.

[razz]

Anyway, for my part, I don't think that the next loop will be Roland's last one but he is getting closer to break the loop every time.
so he is not breaking the habit tonight?

[Frisco]

When I finished the 7th book awhile back (more than a year ago), the ending damn near killed me. I have been involved with the DT series since the Gunslinger came out. When it came out, I had read every other SK book and I snatched this off the book shelf and started in. So I have to had to wait for each new book to come out. While I waited I re-read each book to be ready for the new one. I came to know all of them very well and I grieved for days after the series ended. I am not a crier or weepy, but I wept through out this book and at the end I wept for Roland. I have never had anything affect me this much.

When the emotion was over, I think the ending was right for the most part, but I am disappointed with some of it, too.

I think Roland's loop has been continuing for a very long time. His palaver with Walter that ends up with Roland waking up finding Walter looonnng dead would indicate this. Somehow this palaver is a jumping off in the loops, which explains Roland's age. Like some kind of purgatory, is Roland supposed to change something or an action before he catches up to Walter. Do the tarot cards change each loop? How many times has he had to fix his action with Jake until he gets it right?

Anyway, I am grateful to find this and read your thoughts and ideas. I live out in the toolies and the local book club reads stuff I can't get into. I'm glad I'm not the only one emotionally involved with this series (because out here, I am) And I am really gobbling up and soaking up the ideas here.

Bravo to all of you!!

[Letti]

*hugs Frisco* Great to have you here. I am always happy to read if someone liked the ending. Because I know how much we all got to love Roland and his ka-tet and all of their steps on the road got important parts of our life.

Hope to read your posts all around the board.

[stone, rose, unfound door]

I loved it. Hated it at first (for the first minute, actually) but hey, how could he have ended it better than that? King's just a master story-teller!

[Fathers Face]

Truly there never could be a "Ending" to a story of this Magnitude any definite ending would seem out of place unless Roland was to die when entering the Dark Tower. Therefor the story must go one and it has. Great ending.
Now if only Steven King could continue to write Rolands countless journeys to the Dark Tower, i doubt that Gan would allow for that maybe on some other world the story of the great Gunslinger Roland and his quest is still begin Channeled by some other strange but great Artist.

[JQ The Gunslinger]

The End-were you satisfied?

Does a bear shit in the woods?

[obscurejude]

The End-were you satisfied?

Does a bear shit in the woods?

Not if there's no one to smell it. :D

[Letti]

I don't get it at all. *hides under the carpet*

[Wuducynn]

Truly there never could be a "Ending" to a story of this Magnitude any definite ending would seem out of place unless Roland was to die when entering the Dark Tower. Therefor the story must go one and it has. Great ending.


I agree it was a great ending/loop, but I'm don't agree that there could never be an ending to the story. Although I know you didn't say this, I also don't agree that "it couldn't have ended any other way", like a lot of folk tend to say for some reason. Hell, Letti-love here did her own ending to the Dark Tower series that gave me chills up my arms and back.

[Merlin1958]

I'm probably gonna get a whole lotta shit for this, but a lotta people post in these forums about supposed heinous acts that Roland committed and point to them as reasons why he repeats the loop when in fact they are really bending these events to their own personal opinions. I happen to be almost in the middle of a re-read (I'm halfway through Wastelands) so a lot of what I have to say is really fresh in my mind.

Case in point: In the first post of this thread the poster claims Roland "went crazy" and killed all the people of Tull. Well, actually TMIB put all the townspeople under a spell that turned them into extra's from a G. Romero flick. I mean I defy someone to come back with some liberal view point alternative actions for Roland in Tull (Run? he tries that, doesn't work move on lol ). He barely got outta there!! I mean its not like he could sit and "talk about they're feelings" or try ascertain, through intense group therapy sessions, the childhood event which occurred to EVERYONE in town that lead to them all suddenly developing a taste for murder and human flesh (Redrum?).

And another thing, BTW I know this is turning into a Dennis Miller rant but hey baby I'm on a roll here and the rent's due lol, everyone points to the incident under the mountains when Roland dropped (KEY word being used here "drop") Jake. First, if you go back and re-read that scenario there is absolutely no guarantee that Roland was gonna pull him up anyway. He was hanging on by a thread too and so was Jake. Not to mention that this whole quest is under the jurisdiction of Ka/Gan and Jake somehow knew it, hence the "other worlds than these" remark.

But, nevermind those arguments Roland got a "Do-Over" anyway. Thru time travel and a strategically placed door, which (by the way we KNOW TMIB or CK had a hand in the prior events as well as the future events from the palaver in the Golgotha) Roland uses to deal with the pusher before he kills Jake and sets in motion the events, which lead to the way- station and ultimately the death under the mountain. (here's one for u'all to chew on....ever wonder what happened to the version of Jake that fell? I am of the mind that he was a different version somehow because when Roland goes thru the Pusher door he enters Jake's world prior to anything ever happening to Jake. So, in a manner of speaking, Roland saves the original Jake, but we never find out the ultimate fate of the fake Jake lol). Of course some will jump in and say that the "fake Jake" and the original Jake were one in the same. But, if so, then the worst thing Roland did was give him a Ka/Gan orchestrated nightmare, which is evidenced in Wastelands by both Roland and Jake suffering from "dual" memories and going insane until, they draw Jake thru the house portal. And if all of that doesn't make you re-think your position on the matter SK listed the "R" in wastelands as REDEMPTION.

No I believe SK was going for the more subtle approach. Yes, Roland was a cold-hearted bastard, but he changes (with the help of his ka-tet) from that bastard to someone who cares and can control his obsession with the tower (which BTW is as the old-timers say "the purpose for which God/Gan put him on this here green earth"). IMHO the horn is just a talisman a symbol from his past the real answer to Roland ever getting to that room lies within him. Not in his guns or his horn or whatever else they stick on his person like some cosmic version of a G.I. Joe doll with accessories.

Wow that was some post, even cathartic. Damned if now there isn't a fucking horn laying next to my chair. With apologies to the Clash "Should I pick it up or let it go?" lol lol:wtf::wtf:

[LadyHitchhiker]

didn't i read this somewhere else before??? Hmmmm.....

[JQ The Gunslinger]

Theres only one point i agree with you. Blowing the horn on the top of the Dark Tower. The rest, well srry but to me that just sounds stupid. Its too easy to say alright all the bad stuff that happened, all he has to do this time is blow a horn. Ik its not a regular horn, but come on

[pathoftheturtle]

It was also mentioned that he had a possible route for salvation (heaven) this time...All I have to say at the moment is that salvation and heaven are not necessarily the same thing.

[Tatts4Life]

You know with the word Ka being used throughout the whole series I wasn't surprised at all with the way the book ended. I started to suspect that type of an ending when I was reading Wolves of the Calla. I thought the ending was good and will probably start reading the series again since it's such a great read.


Hell, Letti-love here did her own ending to the Dark Tower series that gave me chills up my arms and back.

Where can I find her version of how the book ended? I just joined the message board recently and would love to see if there are any other versions that people came up with.

[Emsizz]

Same. Link me? LoL...

[cbo680]

I read the whole series over the course of two months, i do feel a little robbed. It makes me feel like there is so much more that could have been written, the crimson king battle was too quick, i just have some minor issues with the ending but overall i loved the whole series. I was definitely sad to see Eddie and Jake, (ofcourse Oy), die. But happy with the way they were reunited.

[cbo680]

Ka is a wheel and WTF KAKA :)

[theBeamisHome]

i had spoiled it for myself :doh: reading stuff on here :lol:
King would have my head
but i was still upset. now i'm relieved, tho, cuz i feel like the story can go better this time and maybe so many people wont get hurt.

[JRSly]

Like many have said, I had, from my point of view, the advantage of reading them all back to back over the course of a few months and that is certainly something to take into account compared to folks who have been following Roland since the '70s.

Unfortunately, I felt angry and cheated most of all, and still do over a year later. I love the series and I've come to terms somewhat with the conclusion and come to appreciate it some more, but the ending I think will always sting.


I think the denouement of this series refutes the claim that King is unequipped when it comes to conclusions. I think the conclusion here is just as profound as in The Stand, or his other epic works of horror-fiction.
I think the exact opposite, but with your same examples. Of what I've read, "The Stand" and "The Dark Tower" both have similarly unfulfilling...I know it'll sound blasphemous, cry pardon...lazy-feeling endings. While I can sympathize with King's oft-repeated "It's the journey, not the destination" sentiment...I don't think him expressing that releases him of trying to deliver a good ending. I find all parts of the story necessary, and just because he likes to warn us about endings not living up to expectations doesn't make a crummy ending sit any better. I just think coming to finales are a weakness in his ability and he tries to make it sound like it's the case with all stories.

I'm gonna go ahead and spoiler the rest to be safe, don't wanna commit a faux pas...

Gah...I'm trying not to ramble on too long here..I'll try to finish up here quickly. It was hard to finish the series in any way, cause it's the longest series I'd read, the most attached I'd become to characters, the most invested I'd become in someone's hopes and goals...as deliriously excited as I was to get to the end, I didn't really want to say goodbye either. But immediately after reading the end, as unexpected and thought-provoking as it might be and as much as I enjoyed the series, it almost felt like a waste to have read it. Because everything had been erased...the reset button was pressed. All that I'd been invested in was now gone, it all felt meaningless. It was only shades more satisfying than an 'it was all a dream' ending to me.

I felt a bit like I'd been tricked, getting hooked in by these exciting encounters and harrowing adventures..only to have everything wiped clean at the end. It felt cruel to Roland and to the readers. And then to have him tease us with the horn at the end as if to say, "And here begins the final loop, the actual story...but you won't get to read it." It felt like King managed to find the one loophole where he didn't have to actually write an ending but could still leave the story in an interesting way.

I'm sure I've lost some of my train of thought...so almost done here. But at the same time, I know that it's better than a schmaltzy ending. And in this case, King really was facing an almost insurmountable obstacle of living up to thirty years of anticipation.

Phew...sorry for the length, I don't really have anyone to talk Dark Tower with, so there was a lot bottled up. :unsure: I hope to discuss many other points of the books with you fine folks in the future.

[theBeamisHome]

wow... welcome JRSly! it's good to have you! and such insight, i love it!

even though many may not agree with you.... lol

[stone, rose, unfound door]

I felt really angry at first and I hated King for like 5 seconds. Then I reread the sentence and I felt like I had made the most important discovery in the century. I went out of my room and was really happy telling everyone I had finished it... and handing back the book to my sister's ex-boyfriend because I didn't have enough money to buy it yet and the bookshop in which I always got my books didn't have it in stock in soft cover yet (yes, that was the thing I was waiting for!)

[Tony_A]

Count me as one of those who loved the ending. It made perfect sense to me when I first read the stories over several years and when I finished my re-read (which began in April or May) last Saturday.

[JRSly]

wow... welcome JRSly! it's good to have you! and such insight, i love it!

even though many may not agree with you.... lol
I'm prepared for that. :thumbsup: Just as long as I don't get run out of town for saying it. :unsure:

Thanks for the welcome!

[JRSly]

I'd be very interested in reading Letti's ending as well.

[Letti]

Don't expect much. Nothing special.
Here is the thread: http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=665
And here is the post: http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showpost.php?p=99539&postcount=36

[Wuducynn]

Don't expect much. Nothing special.


:rolleyes:

[stone, rose, unfound door]

All_Hail, I think that most people saying "it couldn't have ended any other way" actually mean that the ending King chose was the "right" one to them (at least, that's how it worked for me) and that, whatever they could have imagined, it just didn't fit really well in the story. I had thought ever since I'd read The Gunslinger that Roland was going to die lamely right in front of the Tower, so I guess you can understand why I liked the "real" ending so much!

[Wuducynn]

I had thought ever since I'd read The Gunslinger that Roland was going to die lamely right in front of the Tower, so I guess you can understand why I liked the "real" ending so much!

Yep, I do. I didn't know what was going to happen or if he'd even make it. Reaching the Tower and the end of the last book has been one of those moments in my life that touched me deeply.

[Arthur Heath]

For me it was the entire journey that touched me. For a long time I consider the 'ending' the moment Roland reached the tower and I found the last 20 pages to be anticlimactic and fairly disappointing, but as I stated the sum of the journey was so excellent it could be easily overlooked. Than I started viewing the entire DTVII book as the end and it changed my perception as many of my favorite moments are in that volume. The ending is now my favorite part of the series.

[Askani]

Well guys, hi!
I just finished reading DT and I just HAD TO find someone to talk about it...
And then you guys showed up! But anyway, can we continue to talk abou the ending or is it old news?
So, my take on it...
When Roland gets to the top of the tower, his life resets, all time shifts and there is another chance to do the things right. But, onde thing that kept me thinking was, that, even though the new begining starts in the desert, we have no real proof that it was there that his journey really started...
Let me explain this a little better...
When Roland got the pink ball that Rhea loved so much, it just got him trapped untill one of is friends took it from his hands right? And the book itself shows that when this happened his eyes changed and so did his voice, in sk words, he became the man that he was going to be further in his journey.
Hence, imho, this is where his journey starts...
Another point to be seen is that Roland is the last gunslinger and the last Eld alive and if Susan had not died, he would have a son, to carry on not only hys name and his legacy but also the excalibur! To me seems that the tower needs an Eld to protect her and when the tower became more important to Roland than life itself, something has to be done to change it!
One more thing, when Roland reaches the final room, there is nothing waiting for him bacause there is nothing left for him... the search of the tower was his only goal in his life, could it be that the tower gave him what He desired most? Assuming that He could have had a life with Susan, a child and built a real story, He would have a place to GO back and the journey to save and reach the tower wouldnt be na empty jouney at all, He would be doing it in order to achieve a greater goal, being that goal to save the universe for his kin, his kA-tet or else!
In this run, the journey was the purpose of his life, yet He came to Love his second kA-tet more than He loved the first one I think, and when Love comes to the equation, everything changes... If He now let love inside, his Love for Susan wouldnt let him let her alone and this should be the new beginning!
Again, to me when re enters the tower, He is transported to the moment when He looked inside the Pink crystal Ball...
Sorry not to mention names and such, but I am Brazilian and I read dt in portuguese, so names can be a lot diferent...
Anyway, thanks for your time, great site and what areyour takes on my thoughts?

[stone, rose, unfound door]

I had thought ever since I'd read The Gunslinger that Roland was going to die lamely right in front of the Tower, so I guess you can understand why I liked the "real" ending so much!

Yep, I do. I didn't know what was going to happen or if he'd even make it. Reaching the Tower and the end of the last book has been one of those moments in my life that touched me deeply.

So you actually have a heart, All_Hail! :o I had been wondering for quite a while, but you've shown me you're not as bad as the CK you worship!

[Wuducynn]

Whatever gave you the impression that I don't have a heart? I'm a very caring, loving, sweet individual.:fairy::rose:

[theyspunaweb]

Well. I kind of jumped ahead and spoiled the ending for myself on accident. I was searching for the last page just to see how many total pages there were (1031) when I was at about pg 800. And I just couldn't help seeing that very last line. You know, the one:

"The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed".

It's all italicized and even without reading it, I knew what it said. So, it was my fault, I guess for being like Roland, haha I was just too curious to see just how much I had left before I was going to finish and when I read that line, I had a pretty good idea of what was going to happen. Because, how else could Roland be BACK IN THE DESERT FOLLOWING MARTEN? BACK TOWARDS THE TOWER? Ugg.


So that was kind of annoying. But it was a good enough ending. Like I read in a similar post, King emphasized it well, he warned us readers, and if we wanted it perfect we could have left it. But I felt like after reading a lot of these posts it's helped me make up my mind and feel alright with the ending. I didn't really know what I expected but when I was done, I sort of felt like...haha of course, what else would happen anyways. Because, I for sure wouldn't know how to end this series and make it and ending of what it's worthy...I don't think I would have been satisfied with Roland finding a rose on top or dying up there being happy or reuniting with everyone on top happily ever after. The ending really did seem incredible enough for after all of that, Roland must journey again, and I thought the message was clear and well enough (even if there are still some that people question (what the horn means etc.)) I thought it was clear enough that the Tower was forcing him back to the quest because of his choices and what he needed to realize was important in life and not take for granted for the quest of the tower. The horn was a sign of change, and intriguing. Enough for me to put the series to rest and be done with the story. It's probably better that we don't know what happens at "the top" when he completes it perfectly because I don't think S.K. even knows how to write a beautiful enough ending for himself and all of us, or, maybe Roland hasn't finished his quest yet ;) haha cheesy I know.

[Tony_A]

Well. I kind of jumped ahead and spoiled the ending for myself on accident. I was searching for the last page just to see how many total pages there were (1031) when I was at about pg 800. And I just couldn't help seeing that very last line. You know, the one:

"The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed".

I do that all the time (look at the back to see the total # of pages). Luckily, when I looked at the last page in Dark Tower, I didn't see the last line, but I did ruin the ending James Patterson's "Roses are Red" and found out who the Mastermind was.

[Jean]

I always read the last page(s), like Harry (When Harry Met Sally)! I want to know what the author is driving at.

Before we have gone too far off topic, I am happy to tell you that we have Reading Habits (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=395) thread where such things are discussed! http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif