The nature of the Taheen

[Brainslinger]

... and I think we can include the can-toi in this too.

Ok, we started discussing this on the Finli and Pimli thread. So we can leave that thread specific to those two characters, I though we could use this thread to discuss the taheen and can-toi as a whole.

I'm particularly curious as to their origin but it's fine if we discuss other stuff about them too.

So, they're described as being "Not of the world or the prim but something in between" (I'll look for the proper quote later.) So what does that actually mean?

It could mean that they are a mixture of demon (prim) and human (world), but I'm not so sure. The prim combination could simply refer to how they are made. Bearing in mind that the 'receding of the prim' is synonymous in the books (particularly The Song of Susannah) with the departure of magic I think it might simply mean that magic was utilized in their creation.

For this reason I actually chose "They were genetically engineered by the great old ones" and "They were created by the prim folk directly or indirectly."

In short I think it may have been a combination of both, the prim folk magic and knowledge combined with the great old ones science and technology resulting in the creation of taheen from human and animal stock. I don't think it's likely that they were created just by the Great Old Ones with science considering the prim was likely involved somehow. I think that's what 'in between' might mean.

Here follows something I gleaned from the comics, which might explain much:

According to the comics, Maerlyn was the demon responsible for increasing the GOO's knowledge of science and magic and their combination of such in the Dogans. He was partly responsible for a lot of the devastating weapons that were created.

Although it wasn't stated, I wouldn't be surprised if he had a role in the creation of the taheen as well. If they can create demon human hybrids, and combine sperm etc. and end up with a creature like Mordred, making human/animal hybrids would be simple in comparison.

Oh, and this Maerlyn is not Walter. He is a demon in human form. From the prim itself.

We also know the taheen serve the Crimson King. Could it be they were created for that very reason? To serve the people of the prim, the Red King being their heir in that world?

[Darkthoughts]

Cool - good thread topic :thumbsup:

I'm off to bed, but I'll return tomorrow with plenty of input ;)

[jayson]

Very interesting topic Brainslinger. I shall give it some thought and return to this thread with my opinions.

[mia/susannah]

I am really not sure of where the taheen and can-toi come from. Great thread. I will be very interested in everyones input as well

[Letti]

What would you like to see in the poll, Brainslinger?
Interesting thread. :rose:

[Brainslinger]

Thanks Letti. Since I went off on a bit of stream of consciousness in my first post, I'll edit it to make the options more clear. I'm happy for this thread to be a general discussion on the Taheen and can-toi however so it needn't be restricted to just the options of the poll.

Oh, and feel free to add clarify, or add any other options you can think of Letti. Working out the options was quite difficult in some cases as I realize the origins could be a combination of a number of things.

[Letti]

I cannot wait to start this poll. :rose:

*edit* And done.

[Brainslinger]

Thanks Letti. I've edited my first post again as it looks like I'm echoing. ;)

I think it was a good idea you allowed multiple choices. I was considering asking that... I decided not, but I'm glad you did.

It might be advisable to remove the "Combination of both" option, since they can explicitly do it by multiple choices. Or not, whatever you think looks best.

[theBeamisHome]

I think it's a combination but I was mostly attracted to the first option of them being created by the Great Old People. I also believe tho that they might be descended from prim and people sort of like CK... they have many demonic qualities i think like being evil... but i'm not sure because that is also known to be a hume trait sometimes.. because they're part animal genetic modification could be part of it.. i just don't see mutations being so cleanly manifested.

[Letti]

Thanks Letti.

The pleasure was mine, believe me. It's a hard but damn good poll. Keep thinking about it.
Right now I am with the other universe theory.

[ManOfWesternesse]

Good thread indeed, the books tell us very little (nothing) about their origin.

I voted "...genetically engineered by the Great Old Ones ....". It would not surprise me at all if that were the answer - some crossover genetics between Human and other animals.

[Letti]

Good thread indeed, the books tell us very little (nothing) about their origin.

I voted "...genetically engineered by the Great Old Ones ....". It would not surprise me at all if that were the answer - some crossover genetics between Human and other animals.

And what could be the reason?

[ManOfWesternesse]

Good thread indeed, the books tell us very little (nothing) about their origin.

I voted "...genetically engineered by the Great Old Ones ....". It would not surprise me at all if that were the answer - some crossover genetics between Human and other animals.

And what could be the reason?

Pure human fuckery Letti.
We will get around to it eventually on this plane for real. We're already playing around with human/pig genetics to try to grow replacement organs. If a 'pig' only has a slightly-more-human-liver then you can kill the 'pig' and put the liver in a 'human'. But where will we draw the line? (We're not good at drawing lines).

[Letti]

You are right, Brian... I see your point. People are sick.

[Brainslinger]

i just don't see mutations being so cleanly manifested.

Yes, good point about mutants. Of course genetically engineered beings are mutants of a kind (I think) but not the kind I placed in the poll. Besides, ordinary mutants wouldn't fit the profile of being between the prim and the world, since, like humans, they are entirely of the world. (Unless you count the demon inspired weapons that caused them, but that's a massive stretch.)

[Brainslinger]

The pleasure was mine, believe me. It's a hard but damn good poll. Keep thinking about it.
Right now I am with the other universe theory.

I wondered about that too. If they are just from another world, I'm not sure where the prim influence might be though (that's assuming 'between the prim and the world' means that, it might not.) since they are of a world, if not that world.

However, I started wondering about those 'tower balcony' worlds. You know those ones that are off of the main tower, and filled with all the things of human imagination. I.e. more fantastical. Sure the entire cycle, and the multiverse created are fantastical, but I mean a step further, akin to fairy tales. The taheen seem to fit that mold don't they? And I'd imagine the prim to be the source . (Of course everything comes from the prim originally. Even, all the worlds and the Tower itself.)

I didn't pick that as my choice of their origin, but I thought it a considerable option.

[jayson]

"...genetically engineered by the Great Old Ones ....". It would not surprise me at all if that were the answer - some crossover genetics between Human and other animals.

i am leaning this way as well. it would explain why so many [if not all] of them are in league with the Crimson King.

[LemurJones]

I picked descended from humans and prim demons, because they had a lot of very human characteristics, and the unlikely way that their animal characteristics manifested seems too not-random to be the stuff of genetics. BUT I think this only applies to the Taheen.

I think the can-toi are different entirely, and probably WERE caused by the great old one's genetic manipulation and stuff, but i forgot to vote that. lemur is dumb.

[Brainslinger]

I picked descended from humans and prim demons, because they had a lot of very human characteristics, and the unlikely way that their animal characteristics manifested seems too not-random to be the stuff of genetics. BUT I think this only applies to the Taheen.

I think the can-toi are different entirely, and probably WERE caused by the great old one's genetic manipulation and stuff, but i forgot to vote that. lemur is dumb.

That's ok, the poll only concerns the taheen anyway. However you're welcome to include your ideas concerning the can-toi in this thread as well. I intended this thread to be a general thread about the taheen and can-toi, including a poll rather than just being about the poll, if that makes sense.

It would be difficult for a true human/animal hybrid to be created with specific animal head on a human shaped body it's true. Most likely they would be a mixture of human and animal characteristics all over, i.e. head, body etc somewhere between the two.

However I think we can assume their level of knowledge of the GOO would be particularly advanced, at least a 1000 years beyond our own. Couple that with the use of magic- who know what that could be capable of.

If the taheen are in fact chimeras (and I'm not convinced that's the case, but it's an idea) their appearance would be understandable since chimeras contain different DNA in different parts of their bodies, rather than the same DNA in each individual cell. (If I understand correctly.)

Naturally occurring human chimeras actually do exist. It's like having two non identical twins fused in one body. It's still only one person though, one brain, the right amount of organs, limbs etc but you might get different skin tones changing abruptly on the body. If you're a chimera you might give birth to a child who biologically appear to not be your own, because the reproduction cells (sperm, ovum) contain different DNA to much of the rest of your body. Freaky eh?

As for the can-toi, we know they are taheen/human hybrids. I wondered how that happened too. I.e. is it the result of mating between humes and taheen, or, is it, as you say, genetic engineering?

I thought it interesting that the can-toi have a whole culture all of their own. I.e. seeing the human form as divine, and aspiring to it whilst the normal taheen despise humans. Which makes the bond between Pimli and Finli all the more interesting.

[Empath of the White]

I've actually wondered about the can-toi for a while now. They seem to be the King's favored servants, since they'd take mankind's place if the Tower fell.. At first I thought that perhaps the can-toi came about from the mating of a human with a taheen, like Sauruman's uruk-hai. However, the fact that they're ratheaded seems to debunk this idea. Instead, I think its possible that some strange sect that lived in All-World might've chosen some of their own to actually mate with the Great Ones of todash, with the can-toi being the result of said union. So human-prim being hybrids basically.

As for the taheen, I'm genuinley unsure. From The Long Road Home # 3 , recall that the Guardians (in the form that they appeared) had been likened to the taheen *mutants*. I'm thinking that perhaps the taheen were an attempt at the Old Ones to sort of...redeem themselves in the eyes of the Tower that preceeded the creation of the new Guardians like the robotic Shardik. Animal-human hybrids created in the mold of the original Guardians. Though this could also be debunked by the fact that there are taheen such as the rooster-headed one in the Devar, and there is not a rooster among the Guardians. I do think that their nature ties back in to the Guardians though. Something about the primitive or primeval nature of the Prim, hinted at through the Beam Guardians taking the form of animals.

[Darkthoughts]

There's an interesting passage in The Tommyknockers *spoilers coming up* that has given me another idea concerning the origins of the taheen.

One of the characters, Gard, is at a faculty party and is watching his fellow partygoers with a rather critical eye. One man is stuffing his face with abandon from the buffet, and Gard starts to see him with a pig's head - of others he sees:

The shaggy head of a wolf poked out of the collar of his white shirt with the narrow red pinstripes. It looked around, pink tongue lolling, greenish-yellow eyes sparkling. Arberg squealed some sort of approval and stuffed more odd lots into his pink pig's snout. Patricia McCardle now had the smooth sleak head of a whippet. the college dean and his wife were weasels. And the wife of the man from the electric company had become a frightened rabbit, pink eyes rolling behind thick glasses.

Obviously the animal heads in this passage represent the baser natures of the people described - and I wonder if the Taheen aren't some breed, a sort of psychological mutation of the subconcious thats been manifested in physical form, whereby your most basic nature determines your animal (head) appearance.

Whether engineered or natural occuring on some other level of the Tower, I'm still not sure.

[theBeamisHome]

^^ I like this one bestest

[Brainslinger]

Obviously the animal heads in this passage represent the baser natures of the people described - and I wonder if the Taheen aren't some breed, a sort of psychological mutation of the subconcious thats been manifested in physical form, whereby your most basic nature determines your animal (head) appearance.

Whether engineered or natural occuring on some other level of the Tower, I'm still not sure.

I like that. It also fits in very well with the balcony worlds idea I mentioned earlier. I.e. if there is a world with a gingerbread house, which Sheemie can access, and a world with a glass palace Flagg can access (I'm of the view that was a balcony world too, since they made it clear that it wasn't an illusion, and I don't buy it that Flagg could just magic a palace out of the desert) then it makes sense there would be a world where weird fantasial creatures exist.

With all the imagery of animal headed creatures that exist in our culture, from the dog heads that medieval people spoke of in far lands (I saw a recent programme mentioning this and of course I thought of the taheen) to the imagery of peoples baser nature DarkThoughts mentions from the Tommyknockers, and of course all the werewolf stuff, it makes sense that somewhere there might be a balcony world out there where such critters are real. And I'm sure those 'fantasy' worlds are closer to the prim than the worlds of the main tower.

[Babymordred121]

I don't know, but my guess would be that the Prim demons created them using a mix of Prim demon and human DNA, probably either the same way that Mordred was born by using corrupted semen or with the aid of the Great Old Ones' machines.
Yeah, those Taheen were some of the creepier critters of Dark Tower. But just looking at how they seem to behave in the story, I'd bet that not even they really know what they are.

[Babymordred121]

Also, that's a very interesting quote from "Tommyknockers." What's the context? I mean, I remembered in "The Dark Tower," that it said that the Taheen were psychic, so I wouldn't be surprised if they could mask their appearance mentally or something.

[Brainslinger]

I think the Tommyknockers extract was probably a reference to Animal Farm.

(Not to say the taheen link isn't relevant, the thought just occurred to me as I read that post again. That's a book I don't think I've read, although I've seen the animation.)

[Darkthoughts]

I've read the book - and yes, it could be applied in that way - although with Animal Farm the animals had been humanised rather than the other way round.

But, what struck me about the Tommyknockers passage, in reference to the Taheen, was that it occurred to me as a possible "creation story" rather than a direct reference to them as characters.

[Jean]

did anyone already mention The Island of Doctor Moreau?

[Brainslinger]

did anyone already mention The Island of Doctor Moreau?

No, but that's a good example of such similar things.

I find myself thinking of those strange pictures where men with dog heads sit around a table as well. We have those in some pubs in England.

I guess, along with the Dr. Doom type robots, sneetches and lightsabers, it's could be another example of realities bleeding together (Darthoughts Tommyknocker example is relevant here.)

I'm not saying that the fiction of other realities directly created them though. In the same way that the great old ones created the sneetches and 'light sticks' (although, as another poster suggested in another thread, they could have gotten ideas from America side), I'm sure the taheen had a direct origin too but this thought stuff could play a part. In a similar way that the Writer writing facilitates the worlds to be, they're still spun from prim-stuff on the spindle of the Tower. (Patrick Danville's ability could be another good example of this, although I think he alters rather than creates, but that's another thread.)

I think maybe the taheens creation could be all part of that.

[Brainslinger]

I recently purchased the End World Almanac. It's by the same writers as the comics (Robin Furth, Peter David) and could be taken as a companion of sorts.)

It also covers things not mentioned in the comics (so far) including sections on the taheen and can-toi.

Anyway, most of the stuff are things we know already from the books, but it has a couple of extra nuggets. Some might not consider it legitimate, not being directly by King but for completeness I'll include it here. Since it's not book material I'll spoilerize it, although it's not really much of a spoiler.

"Although the precise origin of the taheen is unknown, it is believed that they did not originate in the natural world (as humans), nor did they arise from the Prim (as demons). Rather, they are believed to somehow be the missing link between the Prim and the natural world."

The idea that they're neither of the prim or the world but somewhere in between is stated in the books, but is 'missing link' just another way of describing that or does it refer to something specific? It usually pertains to evolution, although I'd think a different kind of link would be suggested here since humans do not arise from the prim, except in the sense all the world(s) does.)

It could also back kup the demon/human hybrid idea, although I'm not sure that's quite right either. (And why that particular form?)

There is also this concerning their history. (Not their origins, but I think it's relevant to the thread at least:

"The vast majority of taheen live in End-World, specifically, in the sprawling region between Fedic and Thunderclap.

"Legend has it that there was once a great schism in the taheen community, pitting avaian," (thats bird heads to you and me) "and mammalian taheen against each other. However, it is rumored that the two warring subspecies put their differences aside after reaffirming their shared aversion to humans. There is no indication that any such subspecies-based tensions still exist in taheen society today."

The can-toi are described as the result of human/taheen interspecies mating. That's not much of a surprise since we know from the book that they are human/taheen hybrids, but it narrows the nature of their hybridization (I wasn't sure that was a word but my browser didn't redline it. It did redline 'redline' however. ;) ), since genetic engineering or magic were alternate options.

[LadyHitchhiker]

They're just another kind of mutant, a result of the devastating wars much like the slow mutants. <----- this was my vote, but I'm not entirely sure they didn't have some help perhaps. Maybe they were engineered, and then the wars made their states mutate even worse.

[Empath of the White]

Since the OP said we could discuss the can-toi as well, I'd like to here some ideas on this:

According to The End-World Almanac, the can-toi came about through human-taheen interspecies breeding. What then, I wonder, would give them the rat heads we see in the Almanac?

My theory is that the Almanac took the rat-headed description literally. Prior to the Almanac, I viewed them as having more or less humanlike heads with slightly protruding snouts/mouths and furry inherited from the genes of the taheen that give them their animal heads. For the record, I do like the more literal interpretation of the Almanac.

[Brainslinger]

Prior to the Almanac, I viewed them as having more or less humanlike heads with slightly protruding snouts/mouths and furry inherited from the genes of the taheen that give them their animal heads.

That was how I interpreted the can-toi too. I think their heads would need to be almost human in shape at least, to carry of their disguise. I.e. a rat's head is a completely different shape to that of a human.. yet we know the can-toi, with mask, can pass for human (at least with a cursory glance.)



For the record, I do like the more literal interpretation of the Almanac.
The pictures do look great don't they? I think the ones in the novels are actually depicted that way too (although the Almanac versions are much more scary!)

The bleeding eye though... that was wrong. It shouldn't ooze like that...

[Letti]

Just one simple question: is there any connection between the species of the head and the personality?
Finli was a weasel and I think it tells a lot about him but maybe my fantasy is playing with me.
What do you think?




(Soon this thread will get merged with The nature of the Taheen thread.)

[Letti]

So far I agree with every single post.

[cozener]

I don't recall this topic being discussed in the books but it makes sense that an individual taheen would have some of the characteristics of the animal whose head he has sitting on his shoulders. Then again, maybe not. Considering their origin, I suppose their personality makeup doesn't have to follow any rhyme or reason.

[ola]

It seems to me like there is a connection, mostly because of the game that Pimli and Finli play when drinking, where Finli imagines what type of taheen famous humans might be.

[Atanóno Fána]

Although the precise origin of the taheen is unknown, it is believed that they did not originate in the natural world ( as humans ), nor did they arise from the Prim. Rather, they are believed to somehow be the missing link between the Prim and the natural world = They patchwork between people and the "demons" from Prim. PROBABLY

It occurs to me that a demon fucked with Can-Toi ...

[Mark]

I think a by-product from a great war involving the Great Old Ones and The Prim, although I don't know if this ever happened or not, it's my guess. I think The Prim may have used some sort of magic to transform some of the Great Old Ones into these creatures, but wiped their memories or something, and they've eventually regained intelligence.

[ola]

I prefer to think they are from some other level of the Tower. Genetically engineering taheen seems pointless and all the Prim stuff pisses me off a little. It's also fun to imagine that there is some connection between Egyptian animal-headed deities and the taheen...not sure if that has been mentioned yet or not.

[Letti]

It's also fun to imagine that there is some connection between Egyptian animal-headed deities and the taheen...not sure if that has been mentioned yet or not.

What a great thought! That fella with the bird head always seemed familiar but I couldn't put my finger on it. Now I can.

[Wuducynn]

all the Prim stuff pisses me off a little.

What about "all the Prim stuff" pisses you off?

[ola]

all the Prim stuff pisses me off a little.

What about "all the Prim stuff" pisses you off?

That part of the mythology seemed tacked on at the end. Maybe it will leave a different impression the second time I read books 5/6/7.

[Jean]

all the Prim stuff pisses me off a little.

What about "all the Prim stuff" pisses you off?

That part of the mythology seemed tacked on at the end. Maybe it will leave a different impression the second time I read books 5/6/7.

Maybe it will. It still doesn't sit well with bears, however; maybe another reread might do the trick. http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_unsure.gif

[Wuducynn]

That part of the mythology seemed tacked on at the end. Maybe it will leave a different impression the second time I read books 5/6/7.

It may have seemed tacked on to you, but Mia tells it for a reason when you learn about how it was that - Song of Susannah spoiler Mordred could be both Roland and the Crimson King's child. Seems like some pretty important insight into things to me.

[ola]

That part of the mythology seemed tacked on at the end. Maybe it will leave a different impression the second time I read books 5/6/7.

It may have seemed tacked on to you, but Mia tells it for a reason when you learn about how it was that - Song of Susannah spoiler Mordred could be both Roland and the Crimson King's child. Seems like some pretty important insight into things to me.

I get that the story becomes important when explaining Mordred. I think what bothers me is the creation story itself, and how it suddenly attempts to tie everything together (vampires, demons, etc) - haphazardly, in my opinion. I'm happy with a random portal existing without it having been "left behind from the Prim" and explained to death.

[Canada]

Lol, incredibly late I know but I just now saw this topic.

I didn't vote cause I'm mostly gonna focus on the Can-Toi here. I'm of the persuasion that a little psychoanalysis can go a long way in telling a person (or species, if you wanna stretch it)'s origins. My theory is maybe not so much canon, since the End-World Almanac says they were bred from humans and taheen, but judging from their behavior, here's what I think.

Since the Taheen do not rever humans, they act similar (in my eyes, at least) to most of the demonic enemies in the books / rest of the King universe, so in my opinion they are not related to the Can-Toi in any biological sense. They are most likely some kind of creature or demon, perhaps one that evolved (if demons do evolve, and what's to say they don't?) from some ancestor of the prim, but now live in mid-world. They must be very old, as a species, since they seem to be pretty widespread across Roland's universe, (Roland recounts seeing a taheen as far back as the Mohaine desert.)

As for the Can-Toi, as has been mentioned in the books and on here, they revere humans, and try to emulate them (in weird ways, I admit). As the Low-men, they drive loud cars and wear bright colors, and it makes me wonder why, exactly? Could they do this because perhaps they were not able to before? (Kind of like a "Holy crap, I've been in the desert so long, now I'm gonna drink a ton of water round the clock, just cause I can!)Their behavior (and appearance) point towards genetic mutation, possibly by the Great Old Ones. In my mind, the Can-Toi were created (for whatever purposes, but most likely to try to understand / recreate the taheen) by the GOO and were never quite perfected as a species (as noted by the teeth growing out of the sides of their heads, and their generally unpleasant appearances) and so most of them were either destroyed or exiled by the GOO. Some were perhaps forced underground or in hiding in cities like Lud, where they had to hide themselves by wearing dark or drab colors and resorting to inconspicous methods of travel (carts, bikes, etc.) if they were living in or under the cities at the time. They wear the bright colors and drive the loud cars because to them it's like stretching long and hard after having been cramped in a cupboard for months, they are free from their former opression and have sided with the King to guarantee their new freedom. They still emulate humans because they once were human and feel that to attain that form once again they might be accepted back into normal human society (how little of it there is left in mid-world.)

As for their physical appearance, I do think they are literally rat-headed. I think it speaks a little of their origins to, as the GOO might well have used rats or mice in their genetics experiments, and never perfected the rat/human hybrids so they never moved on to another animal. As for the masks fitting their faces and appearing convincing, it's the fact that they ARE indeed so convincing that tips me off that they may be glammers. You don't notice until you get close that it's a mask, but I don't believe I've ever seen a truly convincing "human" mask that couldn't be spotted a mile away. Their false faces would be seen for what they are too easily to be useful, whether their faces fit them perfectly or not. Most likely they are either enchanted relics from the king or from the GOO.

Anyways, just my two cents.

[Shinra]

Um, just gonna toss in that Taheen ain't restricted to animal head/human body but also animal body/human head.

:)