Finli and Pimli *spoilers of course*

[CyberGhostface]

What were your thoughts about these two? While I hated Mordred, Dandelo and the Crimson King these two guys were some of my favorite characters in the series.

Pimli, for example, was very human and complex character, so him killing Eddie made the scene more effective than if he was killed by a "pure evil" villain. I almost teared up when Roland shot Pimli just as the two were trying to comfort each other.

[jayson]

I agree. I thought Pimli and Finli were a bit more three-dimensional than some of the other late-series villains, particularly Mordred. I think King's sharing of their backstories fleshed them out a bit more and added depth. They were certainly much more than just a couple of "bad guys." I particularly thought the exploration of Pimli's religious beliefs was interesting especially in light of what he knew his job to be.

[Woofer]

I, too, have to chime in on these guys. King really made me care for them, and I found myself hoping that something would happen that would give each a change of heart. I knew it wouldn't happen - at least I hoped I would be disappointed in that - but I still wished that it would. Yeah, I wanted to see more of them. :D

[Brainslinger]

Definitely great characters, and I agree concerning their 3 dimensional nature. It's also interesting that the very fact that Pimli had such religious beliefs and indeed a sense of morality, and yet somehow still incorporated the breaking of the beam, and hence the multiverse into it somehow, paradoxically made him all the more despicable. (In the moral sense I mean.)

I.e. if a character is through and through evil, and that's all they are, such an act is understandable. For someone who is pretty low down the food chain as far as evil is concerned, doing such a thing, somehow seems more evil. That is a contradiction I know. I guess what I'm saying is, in his heart he must have known that it was wrong, but went along with it and deceived himself anyway... which is all the worse... in a sense.

I'm not saying that to suggest he isn't an interesting character though. The opposite in fact.

I was quite interested to see how the taheen and can-toi were portrayed too. I.e. they're not the all out evil critters like orcs and trolls of Tolkien either, but also 3 dimensional entities, human even, despite their weirdness.

It was interesting that Roland showed the last few guards (of all species) mercy at the end, when he could have just wiped them out as inhuman misbegotten vermin.

I hope the comics at some point will amplify on the origins of the taheen. The statement given that they are 'not of the world or the prim but somewhere in between' is a curious one. I'm curious how that would be interpreted. Maybe I should set up a thread to discuss that.

[Darkthoughts]

I'd love to hear more on that too. Almost sort of like Lillith and the Nephilim I'd imagine, with some demon of the Prim in the Lilith role.

[obscurejude]

I'd love to hear more on that too. Almost sort of like Lillith and the Nephilim I'd imagine, with some demon of the Prim in the Lilith role.

I wrote a 25 page paper on the Nephilim in college. That's interesting Lisa.

[Darkthoughts]

Hah! Cool!!!

I love that taboo side of Christian mythology. Did you study the 3 Eves as part of it?

[obscurejude]

Hah! Cool!!!

I love that taboo side of Christian mythology. Did you study the 3 Eves as part of it?

Yes, but to go into any detail would be to derail like crazy. I so agree with you though, the taboo side contains some great stuff.

[Brainslinger]

Lilith is more Jewish folklore mythology than Christian I believe (so yeah, a link.) The nephilim though, they're certainly biblical, although that part of the bible is interpreted differently. I've often found that fascinating too.

I assume you're suggesting the taheen being 'between the prim and the world' are hybrids of both? The animal aspects actually being the demon side? Kind of a variant on the origins of the Crimson King?

I was considering that too. Other suggestions were that they are genetically engineered hybrids (human and animal) but then they'd surely be of the world still right? (Unless the forbidden prim magic was utilized as well. Hmmm...)

There was a brief mention of taheen mutants, or words to that extent in one of the previous issues of The Long Road Home. I'm not sure I like the idea that they're just another kind of mutant though as that doesn't fit King's hint at their origin. To be fair, they were left out of the section on Mutants in the last issue though.

Sorry that's off topic. Not sure if there is enough discussion material to warrant a whole new thread though.

[obscurejude]

Lilith is more Jewish folklore mythology than Christian I believe (so yeah, a link.)

Not really, but leave it to you to argue about something off topic.

[The Lady of Shadows]

lilith (or lilin) with one "L" is technically a night demon in judaism. an amulet was inscribed with the names of three angels and given to the newborn male to protect him until his circumsion. also, a male child's hair wasn't cut until he was three to confusion lilith into thinking the child was a girl.

she is definitely thought to be a demon in judaic tradition. there is, however, a tradition in folklore stories telling of her being adam's first wife. and there are some traditions in kaballah which state that lilith was created first. which makes for an interesting dichotomy.

[Darkthoughts]

I'll have to continue with the off-topicness for a moment...

Yes, there are Lilith myths in Judaism and Kabbalism and Christian mythology - it seeps into other Eastern mythology too.

Lilith was made before Eve, she was made of the dirt as was Adam and end up being cast as this demonic figure because she refused to be subserviant to Adam...good on her I say!
Theres also a tale of a third Eve, but she was simple and mute was destroyed after she was made...I can't find my files though where I'd stored stuff on her.

[Brice]

Lilith is more Jewish folklore mythology than Christian I believe (so yeah, a link.) The nephilim though, they're certainly biblical, although that part of the bible is interpreted differently. I've often found that fascinating too.


The portion of the bible that is considered to be about the nephilim that I believe your referencing is in the first few verses of Genesis 6. If the bible is to be interpreted literally I believe the "sons of god" referenced in that section must either be angels, or other men created directly by god. The only other option I see for them to be would be aliens. There are various other mentions of the nephilim in non-canonical works also.

Ryan, if you still have that paper could you maybe send me a copy, please?


Perhaps there should be a seperate thread for gnostisim, kabballah, non-canonical works, etc... ? :unsure:

[Darkthoughts]

Or we could discuss it in the established religious discussion thread? :D

[obscurejude]

Lilith is more Jewish folklore mythology than Christian I believe (so yeah, a link.) The nephilim though, they're certainly biblical, although that part of the bible is interpreted differently. I've often found that fascinating too.


The portion of the bible that is considered to be about the nephilim that I believe your referencing is in the first few verses of Genesis 6. If the bible is to be interpreted literally I believe the "sons of god" referenced in that section must either be angels, or other men created directly by god. The only other option I see for them to be would be aliens. There are various other mentions of the nephilim in non-canonical works also.

Ryan, if you still have that paper could you maybe send me a copy, please?


Perhaps there should be a seperate thread for gnostisim, kabballah, non-canonical works, etc... ? :unsure:

Didn't we talk about this a few hours at that bar?

[obscurejude]

Brainslinger has a knack for picking things apart unnecessarily. I don't think Lisa was making absolutist statements. Anyways, no one would argue that it isn't Jewish in origin, it comes from Genesis, so thank you Brainslinger for pointing out the obvious.

Good thoughts everyone.

Brice the paper is in a box at my parents, but pm if you want to start a diatribe. Ryan doesn't like to discuss in the religion thread. *

*I'm going to do the third person thing off and on bc Wireman does, and he's usually right.

[Brice]

Lilith is more Jewish folklore mythology than Christian I believe (so yeah, a link.) The nephilim though, they're certainly biblical, although that part of the bible is interpreted differently. I've often found that fascinating too.


The portion of the bible that is considered to be about the nephilim that I believe your referencing is in the first few verses of Genesis 6. If the bible is to be interpreted literally I believe the "sons of god" referenced in that section must either be angels, or other men created directly by god. The only other option I see for them to be would be aliens. There are various other mentions of the nephilim in non-canonical works also.

Ryan, if you still have that paper could you maybe send me a copy, please?


Perhaps there should be a seperate thread for gnostisim, kabballah, non-canonical works, etc... ? :unsure:

Didn't we talk about this a few hours at that bar?

We did. We talked about this and many other things. :)


Brainslinger has a knack for picking things apart unnecessarily. I don't think Lisa was making absolutist statements. Anyways, no one would argue that it isn't Jewish in origin, it comes from Genesis, so thank you Brainslinger for pointing out the obvious.

Good thoughts everyone.

Brice the paper is in a box at my parents, but pm if you want to start a diatribe. Ryan doesn't like to discuss in the religion thread. *

*I'm going to do the third person thing off and on bc Wireman does, and he's usually right.

I'd say my knowledge of the subject is somewhat limited, but there will be a PM about in in the near future.

[Brainslinger]

Originally Posted by obscurejude:
Brainslinger has a knack for picking things apart unnecessarily. I don't think Lisa was making absolutist statements. Anyways, no one would argue that it isn't Jewish in origin, it comes from Genesis, so thank you Brainslinger for pointing out the obvious.

Ouch.

Apologies for any offense caused.

Anyway I didn't mean it as a put down at all, though I accept I was rather anal in picking up on a little point. (Do I do it that much? . I'll certainly check myself in future.)

Actually that was just one line of the post anyway, it was the second part- the similarities between the taheen and the Lilith /nephilim stuff I was interested in discussing rather than going down the religious discussion route, but never mind that now, since that's off topic too (albeit connected to Finli being a member of the species.)

Anyway moving on...
...back to Pimli.

Another interesting little point- Pimli comes from a world similar to our own, rather than Mid/End world.

Why was that particular type of person picked I wonder? Has it something to say about a certain lack of empathy with certain (certainly not all) people of our world that it was one of those people who were chosen to run the Beam (and hence multiverse) breaking machine (obviously under CK, Walter, and Sayre.)? And he became so incorporated into End-World too, even taking the taheen name.

[Darkthoughts]

I wasn't offended :)

Personally, I don't think we're going off topic if we're discussing similarities between taheen and nephilim - as long as we don't get diverted from the reason why we're making the comparison (by me mostly :lol: ) - so carry on, I'm interested to hear what interests you about it :D

[Brainslinger]

Thanks Darkthoughts, I just sensed a bit of hostility (not from you mind!) but the criticism made was at least partly legitimate; namely my dissecting the minutia of what was said rather than keeping to the main point. (Although I meant it more as a continuation of discussion than negatively, but it obviously rubbed someone the wrong way. Tone is sometimes a difficult thing in posts isn't it?)

Anyway, no harm done. I have started a new thread (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=3296) specific to discussing the Taheen so we can keep this thread specific to Finli and Pimli.

[The Lady of Shadows]

i don't think touching on those "religious" topics is off-topic at all given the character's own "religious" beliefs and discussions about them. (and i put "religious" in quotes only because part of what i posted wasn't based in religion, more in folklore).

just my two cents

[Brainslinger]

i don't think touching on those "religious" topics is off-topic at all given the character's own "religious" beliefs and discussions about them. (and i put "religious" in quotes only because part of what i posted wasn't based in religion, more in folklore).


Agreed, I think in that context it's fine. The thread was starting to become purely about religion (partly my fault too), that's what the references were to.