Ka

[Letti]

Do you believe in it?

[MonteGss]

It's from a novel, it ain't real.

[Letti]

Okay but we all know that ka is something like fate.. isn't it?
A path you have to step on and you have no choice..
Roland had his own word for it and we have ours.

[MonteGss]

I was being a smarty....your question was only if I believed in Ka. :P

I do not believe in fate.

[Matt]

I voted yes because even though I have taken a lot of flack about it over the years. I totally believe in fate.

I could have saved Sarah Conner a whole lot of trouble. :lol:

[Rjeso]

Hahaha. Poor, poor Sarah Connor.

I think everything we do is based off of free will. I am not one to put a lot of stock in fate.

[Matt]

I think its because I am old and about to die :cool:

[OchrisO]

I tend to be torn on it. Some days I am pretty Nihilistic, and don't think that anything matters, has any basis, or any purpose. Other days, I believe in destiny, true love, finding "the one" and a higher purpose, all which can be exemplified in the concept of Ka.

[ManOfWesternesse]

Yes, I think that at least some parts of our lives are ruled by Ka. Many things we can control/affect with free will etc... but some aspects of our lives (different for everyone) fall into the realm of Ka.

[Letti]

I think its because I am old and about to die :cool:

Don't say such things. :couple:

[Matt]

:wub:

Thanks Letti. It was mostly a joke but I do believe that I become more spiritual and open as I age.

[Letti]

I felt it was a joke Matt but I had to write something. :wub:

[Jean]

:wub:

Thanks Letti. It was mostly a joke but I do believe that I become more spiritual and open as I age.
how does believing in ka make one more spiritual or more open?

[OchrisO]

Ka is based in spirituality, and it isn't conventional thought, so I'd say it fits the bill for spiritual and open.

[Jean]

Any attempt of man to understand where his place in the universe is or how that universe works is fundamentally based in spirituality. I can't see how believing in personal God and man's free will is any less spiritual than believing in ka.
Then, I don't think "unconventional" can work as a synonym for "open". One can be (and often is) close-minded, intolerant, bigoted and biased following any "unconventional" belief (see history and practice of sects and "spiritual" communities)

[Matt]

I just meant in my own little way Jean, not as a general comparison to other folks.

Just more open and spiritual in my own little life. :couple:

[Jean]

ah, but I wasn't making a personal argument! I was only trying to define our categories, which I think necessary before (or during) any serious talk; and any ka discussion will develop into a philosophical talk, as the experience has already shown

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Palaver/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Palaver/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Palaver/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Palaver/0134-bear.gif

[Matt]

Totally.

I just try to keep my comments in the serious stuff to my own prespective as opposed to generalizing how others should or shouldn't feel.

To answer your question though, I don't think believing in fate would make a person more open and/or spiritual at all. I just use those broad terms as a way to describe how it makes me feel.

The whole thing is probably lack of vocabulary on my part. :lol:

[Spencer]

I voted yes, but I think free will is a factor also.

[Baradin]

Ka + rma = Karma

You can bet your house that I indeed believe in Karma.

[BedOfRoses]

I voted yes because many times in my life I've looked back and was able to trace the path I was on; it seemed as though I WERE led to the place I ended up...thus, fate or Ka. Yet I had to make the decisions that kept me on that path, thus free will. It's a tough question, but in general I do believe things happen for a reason.

[ZoNeSeeK]

I don't believe in the concept of fate. I read Ka in the series as "whatever will be will be", not as a result of the function of a hidden machine. Obviously the series has license to use a more prophetic scope but it also uses a lot of manipulation of events and characters by other characters.

A trillion billion free choices is what brings about events, and zero of it is pre-ordained. For every result that seems like it 'was meant to be', there are a thousand that don't.

[Wuducynn]

I know Jean has the most belief in ka of all of us...












:P

[Jean]

I know Jean has the most belief in ka of all of us...
:P
:shoot: :shoot: :shoot: :shoot:

[Wuducynn]

Personally I believe there are a lot of forces that humankind is a part of but that are beyond us also and that one of those forces is "ka" or "destiny" or one of variety of other names.

[Matt]

I think we do have free will to a point. Just only that the result will always be the same.

Like pebbles rolling down a hill, some go fast, some slow. Some have a rough trip and others roll right through. In the end, they all end up at the bottom.

To me, our free will is within the confines of our ka and the two are not mutually exclusive

[Wuducynn]

There is free will and that effects ka and ka also effects free will, I believe there is some weaving of the two.

[Letti]

I know Jean has the most belief in ka of all of us...












:P

Yes, with me. :lol:

[Darkthoughts]

I like your analogy at the top of the page there Matt, its similar to the way I look at it.

I think we chose our own paths, but that there are some things that simply will happen along the way no matter which path you take. Although I don't think the final destination is preordained, that I think is subject to both randomness and concious change.

[She-Oy]

It really depends on what day it is. Today, I DO believe in ka/fate whatever you want to call it. Perhaps it's just easier to accept change that way. It's not that I believe in some kind of pre-determined destiny, I don't, but when somethings happen, whether big or small, from a move to meeting a new friend, it changes the path of our lives...and yes, most of it is free will, but sometimes maybe, just maybe it's not.


***If it sounds like I just reguritated what Darkthoughts said, sorry...strangely and honestly, I did not read that post before I posted mine, but they say the EXACT same thing...would have been even closer to the same because at first I used the term "preordained destiny" instead of pre-determined, but something made me change that...strange.

[Chassit]

I am agnostic so I'll quote Ozzy Osbourne


Don't look to me for answers
Don't ask me--I don't know

[Darkthoughts]

***If it sounds like I just reguritated what Darkthoughts said, sorry...strangely and honestly, I did not read that post before I posted mine, but they say the EXACT same thing...would have been even closer to the same because at first I used the term "preordained destiny" instead of pre-determined, but something made me change that...strange.

Its ka! :D

[maerlyns_rainbow]

Ooh, this is tricky. I believe that we all have free will which moves us through our day to day lives, but there are some things pre-destined for us, whether we realize this or not. I don't think it's been predetermined that I'm going to have cereal for breakfast, but definitely who I'll spend my life with is. I don't think that "ka" or "fate" or "destiny" is something we can see or feel most of the time, but at key points in our lives, when something is just pulling you toward it for no particular reason, what else could there be but ka? Although I do think that some people use ka or fate or whatever as an excuse when they make mistakes in life, and that is definitely not its purpose.

[Letti]

Why is it good to think that there are things that must happen to us? There must be something very romantic or good in it that so many people think that.

[Baradin]

I can't believe I'm about to admit this but:

I kinda like how Sylvia Browne put it. We all chart or map out our lives before we come back to earth each time. Certain "waypoints" are set in stone. Whom you marry, where you die ect ect. But all the inconsequential things (what you eat for dinner, who you goto the Hockey game with) are random and completely up to you. Tho one *could* argue that since you mapped out your life previously, that in fact everything comes down to free choice anyhow.

And yes I have actually read a couple of her books. They were lent to me and I'll read anything.

[Matt]

I go a step further because in a way, every single decision we make in our lives is a part of our ka and destiny.

Missing a bus can literally change your life. The question is weather or not you were "supposed" to miss that bus, I believe that you were.

"you" being general in this case.

[Letti]

I go a step further because in a way, every single decision we make in our lives is a part of our ka and destiny.

Missing a bus can literally change your life. The question is weather or not you were "supposed" to miss that bus, I believe that you were.

"you" being general in this case.

You are my man, Matt. :D
So do you say we can't take real decisions because everything is already written down?

[maerlyns_rainbow]

Why is it good to think that there are things that must happen to us? There must be something very romantic or good in it that so many people think that.

Maybe in a way this is a romantic thought for me, because the main reasons I believe in some sort of ka are because of the person I am with and the deep connections I have with family members. Where with family I understand that I grew up with these people, there is some reason why we are so alike, but as far as purely romantic love goes, I find it extremely hard to believe that I just happened to stumble across someone who is perfect for me. I just find it very hard to believe that there wasn't something pulling us towards each other to make sure we got it right. I also believe that intuition is something like ka, kind of helping us to make the right decisions so we can have a better life.

And Baradin, don't be too ashamed of reading Sylvia Browne. I have too :lol: I only read her Secrets and Mysteries of the World book, but it made for very interesting reading at the very least. She also has a great outlook on life. I imagine her to be a very happy person.

[Letti]

Rainbow - isn't it better to think that you both fought a lot and you are the people who you are because of the things that happened to you because of the things you fought for and the fact that you met was a big present of the life or God or I don't know what but if you had taken other decisions if you had failed more you would have never met or you would have met but you wouldn't have matched so much...
I mean... isn't it better to think that not an "an touchable big power" but you did it that you are together?

[Matt]

I go a step further because in a way, every single decision we make in our lives is a part of our ka and destiny.

Missing a bus can literally change your life. The question is weather or not you were "supposed" to miss that bus, I believe that you were.

"you" being general in this case.

You are my man, Matt. :D
So do you say we can't take real decisions because everything is already written down?

Actually I do. My mom used to have a saying that the "universe is unfolding as it should". Meaning even when things were bad, they were bad for a reason that we couldn't see.

I am not talking religion here, I am talking universal design all the way down. Turtles don't you know :lol:

I also believe that peoples "paths" can be easy or hard but are always going the same way. Its hard when you fight against it or push bad karma out in the universe by treating people badly.

We can all light the universe from our own little corner and treating folks well will always return to us through universal harmony.

[Letti]

Brice, I am waiting for your post here so much..

[Letti]

I go a step further because in a way, every single decision we make in our lives is a part of our ka and destiny.

Missing a bus can literally change your life. The question is weather or not you were "supposed" to miss that bus, I believe that you were.

"you" being general in this case.

You are my man, Matt. :D
So do you say we can't take real decisions because everything is already written down?

Actually I do. My mom used to have a saying that the "universe is unfolding as it should". Meaning even when things were bad, they were bad for a reason that we couldn't see.

I am not talking religion here, I am talking universal design all the way down. Turtles don't you know :lol:

I also believe that peoples "paths" can be easy or hard but are always going the same way. Its hard when you fight against it or push bad karma out in the universe by treating people badly.

We can all light the universe from our own little corner and treating folks well will always return to us through universal harmony.

Althought there is a lot in what you write we couldn't think more differently about this question. ;)

[Brice]

Brice, I am waiting for your post here so much..


I know I know...I am just procrastinating trying to find the right words. :D

[Matt]

I go a step further because in a way, every single decision we make in our lives is a part of our ka and destiny.

Missing a bus can literally change your life. The question is weather or not you were "supposed" to miss that bus, I believe that you were.

"you" being general in this case.

You are my man, Matt. :D
So do you say we can't take real decisions because everything is already written down?

Actually I do. My mom used to have a saying that the "universe is unfolding as it should". Meaning even when things were bad, they were bad for a reason that we couldn't see.

I am not talking religion here, I am talking universal design all the way down. Turtles don't you know :lol:

I also believe that peoples "paths" can be easy or hard but are always going the same way. Its hard when you fight against it or push bad karma out in the universe by treating people badly.

We can all light the universe from our own little corner and treating folks well will always return to us through universal harmony.

Althought there is a lot in what you write we couldn't think more differently about this question. ;)

That's the beauty of the question.

[alinda]

"Everything is " :rose:
Matthew I believe your so very close to describing what I see.




There is free will and that effects ka and ka also effects free will, I believe there is some weaving of the two.

[Letti]

There is free will and that effects ka and ka also effects free will, I believe there is some weaving of the two.

Wow. :rose:

[NeedfulKings]

I do believe in Ka. Fate. Destiny. Even if it's affected by my free choices, it's a collision with someone elses free choices. I am responsible for how I live my life, but something else (surely not me) is responsible for those obsticles/people that are put in my path.

Ka.

And, if I'm wrong, I'll never know it! :innocent:

:D

[Letti]

I do believe in Ka. Fate. Destiny. Even if it's affected by my free choices, it's a collision with someone elses free choices. I am responsible for how I live my life, but something else (surely not me) is responsible for those obsticles/people that are put in my path.

Ka.

And, if I'm wrong, I'll never know it! :innocent:

:D

I see what you say but isn't it a paradox?

[Matt]

Not to me, I believe you can have free will within destiny.

For instance, when we shop, the kids can get whatever they want from this rack

freedom to choose, within boundries

[Letti]

I see. There are things that have to happen, I agree with it.
But not because of destiny. Yes, we have boundaries.. but they aren't given... we ourselves build them. We build the walls. Of course after awhile these boundaries are so strong and big that they are real and we aren't absolutely free.
Anyway it's very hard to be free for a human being. But not because of some God or some destiny. But because of themselves.

[Matt]

I actually totally agree with that. The boundries are not specified but I think a person can sense them if they are really in tune with their own destiny.

**cue twilight zone music**

I just think our destiny's (ka) are broad and allow for a few turns and twists in the road to it.

One school of thought is that everything is destiny all the way down to weather or not I decide to type the next word.

word <--desitny, had to be done

[Letti]

And why does destiny exist? (Does this question mean any sense? - for me it does but I can describe it more if you wish)

[Matt]

For me, its on a universal scale, and not stopping there, its on a multi-universal scale.

What I mean is that all of existence is (to me) like a clock and all its moving pieces have to do exactly what they are supposed to.

Destiny is the plan, but not in a God way (imo)

[Letti]

So... we can choose but these choices aren't real choices they don't make any really difference because we always go to the same direction. Hm? Something like this?

[Matt]

Kind of, the destination is the same but how we get there can be as varied as we are.

Personally, I believe the more you accept it, the easier your life is but I am a little crazy :lol:

Our choices are real but if you are going to get smashed by a rock on the highway 3 years from now (it happens around here), that is going to happen no matter where you go or what you do

[Letti]

It doesn't matter when or how you die but the things you have done in your life by that point.

[Matt]

Exactly!! (and I love this conversation by the way :wub:)

That is why it is so important to live everyday like it was your last--because in the end it is how you lived, not how you died.

[Daghain]

This is a fascinating discussion. :)

I totally believe things happen for a reason. Maybe to teach you a life lesson, maybe just to move things in general forward. I always try to look at what the purpose might be to things that happen to me.

[Matt]

Same here, good or bad there has to be a purpose for things. Even though we may never know what it is.

[Letti]

Exactly!! (and I love this conversation by the way :wub:)

That is why it is so important to live everyday like it was your last--because in the end it is how you lived, not how you died.

But listen... if everything goes the same direction... and most of the things or all of the thing must happen, why is it important in your view how I live?
I'll tell you an example.
We say things must happen. Let's imagine that I have a sister. She is in a big trouble but destiny or something like that says and leads everything to that direction that she will pull herself together and she will solve her problems.
Because it's in the big book. She will not fail. She will manage.
Why the blue hell should I help her? Why should I be a good sister and be next to her if I not someone else will help her to get out of that big trouble?
Do you see my question?
If everything goes the same direction and life is like a nice clock... as I see it reponsibility... gets very little.
Do you see what I don't understand? :D

[Matt]

I see your question perfectly.

Mostly my crazy opinions just work for me so take everything I say with a grain of salt, everyone is totally different imo.

also, I am totally non religious (not that its a bad thing :grouphug:)

As far as the example, I believe there is a way to achieve what we might call a "smoother" passage by living well and being kind to others. It strikes a chord that resonates across all of this. That means that it comes back (karma/pay it forward--whatever)

But to me the fact that I helped someone is for me, to just do the right thing, not their eventual destiny. I at least try my best to be a good person.

Not sure if that makes any sense though, I think these things are as varied as we are as individuals.

[Daghain]

Wait. I think I have the answer to Letti's question.

What if part of YOUR ka is to help your sister? To learn something by giving her assistance?

Even though she will eventually solve her problems, you don't know that for sure, and maybe she needs your help to do it. And, maybe, by helping her you are learning something about yourself in the process, something that you will take on to your next challenge.

Does that make any sense?

[Brice]

I do believe in Ka. Fate. Destiny. Even if it's affected by my free choices, it's a collision with someone elses free choices. I am responsible for how I live my life, but something else (surely not me) is responsible for those obsticles/people that are put in my path.

Ka.

And, if I'm wrong, I'll never know it! :innocent:

:D

I see what you say but isn't it a paradox?

Not entirely. Why would it be a paradox for seperate destinies and choices to intertwine? Or why would it be a paradox for all of those detinies and choices to exist within a seperate predestination?

[Aesculapius]

"I am not Ka, I am not its ribbon, I am a vehicle of Ka..."

[Letti]

Wait. I think I have the answer to Letti's question.

What if part of YOUR ka is to help your sister? To learn something by giving her assistance?

Even though she will eventually solve her problems, you don't know that for sure, and maybe she needs your help to do it. And, maybe, by helping her you are learning something about yourself in the process, something that you will take on to your next challenge.

Does that make any sense?

Oh yes it does.
But it means I have to do everything for myself because I work for MY ka. I can't influnce others' lives (because everything goes the same direction without my effort too nothing depends on me) and noone can make a really difference in my life because I am the only one who can form it BUT I don't really form or influence it because things happen without my help too.
If I must become homeless I can work damn hard I wil become one. If I must become rich (because it's in my Big Book) I will win on the lottery because I must.
I am sure I am dark but I don't see why we should fight for anything if we see the things this way.

[Matt]

You fight if it is your ka to fight. That's why some decisions feel so right even if its the hardest thing you will ever have to do.

Also why a person does things they shouldn't even though they know it will hurt them.

[Letti]

You fight if it is your ka to fight.

I fight because there are so many things to fight for. My friends my love my family.
Anyway why would it be ka? That's life. Fight. To find something to fight for. Sometimes we fail.. we stand up and we go on. And sometimes we win.

[Jean]

It is interesting to see how in this thread people suddenly started calling Ka everything that is of spiritual nature or goes beyond immediate physical experience. In every particular case, Ka may be replaced by an appropriate philosophical or religious term, which will make the matter much clearer, and eliminate Ka as superfluous.

[Letti]

Ammmazing to see you here, Jean. *hugs* All of your words are shiy pieces of jewellery.

[Daghain]

I am not religious by ANY means. Okay, yeah, I was raised Catholic, and while I kind of like the geegaws, I don't practice. I was sure when I went into the Catholic church 7 years ago for my father's funeral that I would get hit by lightning LOL. Since that didn't happen, I kind of figure there's no power there. :)

I like ka. I like the idea that "what will be, will be".

Letti, I see what you're saying. You think that if the outcome is the same regardless, that you working towards it doesn't matter. Am I correct?

If so, then what I'm thinking is that while the other's ka (your sister, a friend, whatever) may be preordained, and yours too, the fact that you must help them or work towards a common goal is part of ka, too.

YOU are learning something by working towards another's ka. YOUR ka is to work towards a goal. You may not gain monetarily, or spiritiually, but at some point the work you did there may build on a future work, something that forwards YOUR ka.

Yes, I know, my BS meter has been set to high these days, but I truly believe that whatever happens happens for a reason - you just have to find out what that reason is. :D

Ah hell, maybe I am talking in circles. But, if ka is a wheel, that makes sense, too, I guess. :)

[Jean]

1. I am not religious by ANY means. Okay, yeah, I was raised Catholic, and while I kind of like the geegaws, I don't practice. I was sure when I went into the Catholic church 7 years ago for my father's funeral that I would get hit by lightning LOL. Since that didn't happen, I kind of figure there's no power there. :)

2. I like ka. I like the idea that "what will be, will be".
<...>
3. Ah hell, maybe I am talking in circles. But, if ka is a wheel, that makes sense, too, I guess. :)
1. Wouldn't like to start religious discussion unless it is absolutely necessarily, but would like to draw your attention to the fact that there is some difference between Christian God and country fair prestidigitator.

2. Why do you insist on calling it ka? There are more interpretations to the idea, and there is more than that to the concept of ka (itself hardly consistent, by the way)

3. And here comes an interruption of logic. You like the idea (see above), and you call it ka; but since ka is like a wheel, you are ready to accept the idea of the wheel in your reality. Why? How does it logically follow from "what will be, will be"? How does it tie in with the rest of your picture of the world? What are your foundations for your beliefs? Do you believe in wheel only because a writer happened to cover it with the same conceptual blanket as "what will be, will be" idea?

[Matt]

The thread is called Ka Jean.

I understood that is what we were here to discuss. Sure, the idea has all kinds of names but calling it Ka in this thread seems appropriate.

[Jean]

Matt: The concept of Ka is not reducible to fate, or destiny, or karma, or dao (all of which should be discriminated between, too). If someone accepts one part of a system of beliefs, it does not mean they should accept the rest automatically and blindly. It may very well be that the part they accept would make more sense in a different system of beliefs. It's all a matter of consistence, which I personally find important.

[Matt]

Sure, I totally understand that. If my opinions in this thread have given the impression that expected anyone to accept anything, that was not my intention.

My beliefs work only for me and the complexities (and inconsistencies) are unique to me.

[Jean]

Absolutely. But if you post, it must mean that you are ready to argue your position, right, including the foundations and the consistence of your beliefs? It is not about whether or not you want anyone to accept it, too - I don't know how this motif appeared at all - it's only how well you realize what your own beliefs consist of, or result in; how important they are to you and how seriously you take them.

[Matt]

it does not mean they should accept the rest automatically and blindly

That piece of you post was all I meant.

If my beliefs don't seem consistent to you, that is nothing I would lose sleep over or expect you to change. Being able to exchange opinions without the expectation of changing anyone is what has always been cool about these conversations to me.

I take my own beliefs very seriously but that's me. I don't expect anyone else to because they are built on personal experience.

So I may be unclear on what the issue with the current conversation is. Is it personal beliefs, or what we are calling them or the idea that we are individually inconsistent in small ways.?

[Jean]

If my beliefs don't seem consistent to you, that is nothing I would lose sleep over or expect you to change.
It is a pity. If my beliefs didn't seem consistent to you, I certainly would lose sleep over that, because I respect your opinion. Likewise, my idea of respecting a person's position is discussing it, not just taking it into consideration. I thought that's what we were here for?


So I may be unclear on what the issue with the current conversation is. Is it personal beliefs, or what we are calling them or the idea that we are individually inconsistent in small ways.?

The only point was that everyone who has professed belief in Ka here doesn't really seem to mean Ka as described in the book. Ka of the book is a complex concept that includes lots of aspects. Taking one and ignoring others seems to me inconsistent. For example, most of discussion is not about Ka as a whole, it is about the existence and role of free will.



If someone accepts one part of a system of beliefs, it does not mean they should accept the rest automatically and blindly
That piece of you post was all I meant
If someone suddenly finds out s/he believes in immortality of soul, s/he doesn't have to immediately accept the rest of Christianity, immaculate conception, Trinity and all. S/he might as well consider Islam, Zoroastrism etc. The same with Ka: acceptance of one aspect doesn't have to entail automatic acceptance of all the others. I don't know why this statement suddenly called such controversy. http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_unsure.gif

[Matt]

Oh no, not at all. And I do respect you and everyone else on the site Jean.

To me, respect in someone's opinion means that just because it seems inconsistent to me, doesn't mean it actually is. That is perspective and I would never assume that I fully understood someones beliefs enough to pass judgment on weather or not it is consistent.

I just wasn't sure where anyone said that anyone else should accept an option lock stock and barrel.

But its not controversy, just a discussion :couple:

[Jean]

To me, respect in someone's opinion means that just because it seems inconsistent to me, doesn't mean it actually is. That is perspective and I would never assume that I fully understood someones beliefs enough to pass judgment on weather or not it is consistent.
Definitely so; which also means that if anything raises questions, everyone has perfect right to ask them - just to be able to fully understand where someone stands.

And, of course, it also should be understood - I think we might even think of placing it somewhere in Big Golden Letters as a universal rule of the boards - that

everyone who expresses his/her opinion fully understands that s/he does not possess the Absolute Truth and begs everyone to perceive whatever s/he says as an invitation to further discussion

(at least, that's how I feel)

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/bears_friends.gif

[Matt]

I believe we are in total agreement here Jean and are just under a miscommunication. :grouphug:

I totally agree with the above

[Jean]

In fact, we've been both saying the same* in different words. It often happens when people don't see each other, especially when one of them isn't a native speaker... or is, God forbig, a bear...

*on all subjects except Ka, of course... http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_tongue.gif

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

[Odetta]

Here's a question... do you think Stephen King believes in "Ka"?

[Jean]

I don't.

What I think is that Ka is one of the many beliefs existing in Roland's world, akin to citizens of Lud's belief in demons inside the drums, and as deadly as that. I think when that belief became predominant, it may even have led to the world moving on... although I got to give it more thought. The whole saga for me is about Roland overcoming his false beliefs, fighting the fascination of Ka, and finally learning to exercise his free will, thus eventually becoming free.

[Odetta]

I think that in some ways, Roland's constant use of Ka as his answer for everything is, in a small way, SK's reflection of how some people use "god" as their answer for everything.

[Matt]

Good question. I think the religious undertones in all of Kings books say a little about his beliefs. I always considered him a basically religous person.

Weather he believes in Ka, I am not sure but I am convinced that he does believe in the multi-verse

[Jean]

I think that in some ways, Roland's constant use of Ka as his answer for everything is, in a small way, SK's reflection of how some people use "god" as their answer for everything.
Exactly! Or "karma", or, if they are not religious, "nature", or "that's how it is", or any other entity that fits to explain everything if people don't want to think. It doesn't mean that notions themselves are not sound; it's their use in the way that would relieve people of independent thinking that I object to.


Good question. I think the religious undertones in all of Kings books say a little about his beliefs. I always considered him a basically religous person.

Weather he believes in Ka, I am not sure but I am convinced that he does believe in the multi-verse
I think the same, although I am pretty sure he doesn't believe in Ka. Multiverse is, however, an entirely different kettle of fish... I am inclined to rather like the idea of a universe organized in such a complex way. Luckily, the two concepts are mutually independent.

[Matt]

Totally independent :D

[Daghain]

For me, there really IS no difference between organized religion and a country fair prestidigitator. :D But hey, that's a whole different thread.

I think things do move in a circle. We're born, we die, another is born, etc. What goes around comes around. The energy you put out, positive or negative, comes back to you.

But I also don't really have a lot emotionally invested in any particular belief system in the first place. The idea of a multiverse is kind of cool, though. :)

[Matt]

:rock:

I think there are billions of Matts living in billions of time lines and I got the best shake. :lol:

I bet I'm with Dora in 90% of them too

[Daghain]

LOL If that's the case, I want to find out in which world I'm a rock star. :lol:

[Odetta]

that's in my world, babycakes! ;)

[Matt]

I'm totally keystone Matt. :lol:

[Letti]

This thread is living, huh? :D

[Letti]

YOU are learning something by working towards another's ka. YOUR ka is to work towards a goal. You may not gain monetarily, or spiritiually, but at some point the work you did there may build on a future work, something that forwards YOUR ka.

You say I fight to be able to learn something that can become important in my life.

As I see life I learn to be able to fight for something that can become (or is already) in my life.

[Daghain]

The quest for knowledge is generally an uphill battle. :)

[Letti]

BUMP.
Because we have so many new people around and I am interested in their opinions about the topic. :)

[HanzouNorak]

to decribe the course of events, ones fate, and hinting that all conicidences are linked together creating history.

[ATG]

KA is short for karma.

Sorta.

[Malficeus]

i wish free will existed but since God has created all things he knows all things meaning knowing what we are going to do, destroying the fact we dont have control so yes Ka is Fate in Roland's world which mean it is true

[Storyslinger]

Of course, and it is my answer to everything.

[Letti]

Of course, and it is my answer to everything.

That's easy. ><

[LadyHitchhiker]

I agree with Spencer

[Storyslinger]

Of course, and it is my answer to everything.

That's easy. ><

:dance:

[Letti]

Of course, and it is my answer to everything.

That's easy. ><

:dance:
:rolleyes:

[Matt]

i wish free will existed but since God has created all things he knows all things meaning knowing what we are going to do, destroying the fact we dont have control so yes Ka is Fate in Roland's world which mean it is true

I agree that Ka is basically "fate" but you lost me with the God thing. :lol:

[Malficeus]

i wish free will existed but since God has created all things he knows all things meaning knowing what we are going to do, destroying the fact we dont have control so yes Ka is Fate in Roland's world which mean it is true

I agree that Ka is basically "fate" but you lost me with the God thing. :lol:

lol i awlays do with anybody just see it as over thinking. As for the God thing look at it as a perfect working rube goldberg device.. he created it and knows when it working what it is going to do exactly, thats what my point i was trying to get out

[Brice]

i wish free will existed but since God has created all things he knows all things meaning knowing what we are going to do, destroying the fact we dont have control so yes Ka is Fate in Roland's world which mean it is true

I agree that Ka is basically "fate" but you lost me with the God thing. :lol:

lol i awlays do with anybody just see it as over thinking. As for the God thing look at it as a perfect working rube goldberg device.. he created it and knows when it working what it is going to do exactly, thats what my point i was trying to get out

I'm not religious at all, but the two concepts are not mutually exclusive. They can both simultaneously be true. You can have the free will to choose and a god can know what you're choices will be without impacting upon or interfering with them.

And yes, I think fate is a part of what ka is.

[John_and_Yoko]

Didn't used to believe in what The Dark Tower series calls "ka" (and which term didn't even originate therein), but now I'm changing that belief.

I think of it as like a law of physics--like water running downhill. Yeah, it may make twists and turns along the way, but it always runs downhill eventually.

Likewise, you have free will, and you can deviate from the "path" to whatever degree, but eventually you do get drawn back to it.

And I can vouch for that--not least of which is my being "drawn" to The Dark Tower series, which is fast becoming one of my favorite stories ever (not to say my most favorite). I've had opportunities in the past but turned them down, but finally I've made it. And I'm glad. :D

[pathoftheturtle]

...The only point was that everyone who has professed belief in Ka here doesn't really seem to mean Ka as described in the book. Ka of the book is a complex concept that includes lots of aspects. Taking one and ignoring others seems to me inconsistent. For example, most of discussion is not about Ka as a whole, it is about the existence and role of free will. ...Absolutely. The single question of this thread is inadequate to all of the connected issues that stand around those various aspects. One of several other threads which we should have here is one, for example, specifically dedicated to asking about the relationship between ka and Gan.



...2. I like ka. I like the idea that "what will be, will be".
<...>
3. Ah hell, maybe I am talking in circles. But, if ka is a wheel, that makes sense, too, I guess. :)
...
2. Why do you insist on calling it ka? There are more interpretations to the idea, and there is more than that to the concept of ka (itself hardly consistent, by the way)

3. And here comes an interruption of logic. You like the idea (see above), and you call it ka; but since ka is like a wheel, you are ready to accept the idea of the wheel in your reality. Why? How does it logically follow from "what will be, will be"? How does it tie in with the rest of your picture of the world? What are your foundations for your beliefs? Do you believe in wheel only because a writer happened to cover it with the same conceptual blanket as "what will be, will be" idea?...I think things do move in a circle. We're born, we die, another is born, etc. What goes around comes around. The energy you put out, positive or negative, comes back to you. ...So, in fact that was not a direct chain, but an example of independent events from common causes. Daghain didn't accept the wheel idea into her reality because King suggested a connection; rather, she accepted his suggestion because she already had in her reality the belief which King was writing about.:orely:
...


Here's a question... do you think Stephen King believes in "Ka"?I don't.

What I think is that Ka is one of the many beliefs existing in Roland's world, akin to citizens of Lud's belief in demons inside the drums, and as deadly as that. I think when that belief became predominant, it may even have led to the world moving on... although I got to give it more thought. The whole saga for me is about Roland overcoming his false beliefs, fighting the fascination of Ka, and finally learning to exercise his free will, thus eventually becoming free....Weather he believes in Ka, I am not sure but I am convinced that he does believe in the multi-verse
I think the same, although I am pretty sure he doesn't believe in Ka. Multiverse is, however, an entirely different kettle of fish... I am inclined to rather like the idea of a universe organized in such a complex way. Luckily, the two concepts are mutually independent.It's ironic here that I happen to think that King was actually mostly criticizing the multiverse as portrayed by other writers, because I disagree unreservedly with Jean's interpretation of ka as a fiction within the fiction. I'm not sure, either, whether King really believes in ka, but what I have to say is clear is that he meant it as truth within the novels.


Now, then, to turn to what is literally, if not yet authentically, on topic here. Do I really believe in ka?
Yes, I think so.
I believe in destiny, sure, although that is not necessarily the same as believing in determinism (in any of its recorded forms) or believing in fate. It is important to know that, as Jean pointed out, all of these ideas actually have their own established definitions.
Like Daghain, I, too, do believe that the wheel is in reality. I can't deny it, although, if that is ka, then I most certainly do hope that it is possible to be "above ka."
I believe that powers beyond my control, which I cannot define, are doing things which I don't understand. I don't know how they'll affect me, or when that might occur, but I do my best.
So tell me, if you want to try to sort out what was and was not said in TDT, what else than this does "ka" mean?

[flaggwalkstheline]

One thing I took out of the dark tower is that because roland is reliving his journey albeit slightly different each time from the previous time, then ka is preordained for him because everything he does has already happened, except that ka shifts just a little each time, so in his case its not quite what lost fanatics refer to as "Whatever happened happened" but its close

[BROWNINGS CHILDE]

I voted "yes", but with a caveat. I do believe that individuals are born with innate abilities and disabilities that would lend certain tendencies to their destiny. However, I feel that, for better or worse, your destiny is earned by your actions. I don't believe in absolute, inescapable "Ka" by any means, but I do feel like certain attributes would make one path more or less likely.

[pathoftheturtle]

flaggwalkstheline: An excellent point, which shows that the ideas of ka and alternate realities may not be so unrelated after all. A multiverse in which every possibility occurs is one in which nothing is ordained, because everything is. To define a thing is to take away what is not that.
But listen... if everything goes the same direction... and most of the things or all of the thing must happen, why is it important in your view how I live?
...
If everything goes the same direction and life is like a nice clock... as I see it reponsibility... gets very little.
Do you see what I don't understand? :DIndeed. Do you see how indeterminacy turns out to have the same problem? If I know that, if I do not do my duty today, there will still be a universe where I do, then why should I bother? Plus, if I know that, if I do do my duty today, there will still be a universe where I do not, then, again, why should I bother?
The question of responsibility is "What difference does it make?" If the existence of every option is ka, then I don't see how anything can be making any, really.

BROWNINGS CHILDE: You are talking about the difference between determinism, which says that all events result from causes, and fatalism, which says that no causes can alter events. You're also saying that there is free will, and questioning its limits. You may be right that those limits are related to ka, but I think that it'll be less confusing to phrase as a question, "Is ka inescapable fate?" than to state that you "don't believe in absolute ka."



I do believe in Ka. Fate. Destiny. Even if it's affected by my free choices, it's a collision with someone elses free choices. I am responsible for how I live my life, but something else (surely not me) is responsible for those obsticles/people that are put in my path.

Ka.

And, if I'm wrong, I'll never know it! :innocent:

:D

I see what you say but isn't it a paradox?

Not to me, I believe you can have free will within destiny.

For instance, when we shop, the kids can get whatever they want from this rack

freedom to choose, within boundries:orely:
The first time that I ever heard the phrase "free will," I took it as a contradiction in terms. The "will" tries to control. So long as people use their wills, there cannot be freedom. The paradox would be in saying that I can make free choices for myself without affecting others. Either I can get what I want from them, or I cannot. Who decides? Or to put the same question into different words: What is destiny?

I think that Matt was on to something, there. Something like what B'sC was referring to.

I have a problem with the assertion that there is no ka, if that is intended to mean that free will should be absolute. The "Great Old Ones" were free, in that sense. They did not follow the way of duty, they did not fear any God... They respected no limits, and the Waste Lands were the result. Karma is the law of consequence. The boundaries, in that belief system, are the boundaries of natural law. You can drink all you want, but you're the one who'll have the hangover. Isn't that the way it should be? If we can "cure" all of that, change the laws of nature, so that we can do whatever we want, then don't we need to consider metaphysical questions? That is, are there any higher laws which say what will happen if the laws which have said what has been happening are changed, or laws which can show which of the alternatives to those simpler laws might be better used?

How can humanity limit humanity?

Jean: In saying that the moral of TDT is that the post-cataclysmic pagans have a bad system, weren't you ignoring that religious lesson in the books which King made the most explicit? --

Callahan had to learn to have a deeper faith; to know that the true God was not in his symbols or his own ideas.In theory, Christianity means that the old self passes away, so that the Christian's aims are like God's, serving the entire universe instead of putting one person ahead of others. In practice, what often happens is that the same sinner goes on, imagining that God's aims are like his own, insisting others follow him along a road of good intentions.
Not to say that about you personally, my brother. Just trying to clarify the issues at stake in these discussions.

[Jean]

Jean: In saying that the moral of TDT is that the post-cataclysmic pagans have a bad system, weren't you ignoring that religious lesson in the books which King made the most explicit? -- Mike, sincerely, I don't see what made you think I ever said that. I am notorious for reading Christianity into every line of TDT (at which you have already gracefully hinted before http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wink-1.gif); I also said a few times that the system (social, political, or moral) of the post-cataclysmic pagans seems to me highly unacceptable, but I never reduced everything said in the book to this only point - if anything, I stretched the Christian message of the book beyond the limits of universal acceptability, to which I happily admit.

[pathoftheturtle]

I am notorious for reading Christianity into every line of TDT (at which you have already gracefully hinted before http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wink-1.gif)Are you calling me tactless? :wtf:
Perhaps so, but no offense meant. I may also be just as guilty of reading Christianity into things, if not quite as notorious. ;)
Anyroa', to rephrase, isn't much of this--
...What I think is that Ka is one of the many beliefs existing in Roland's world, akin to citizens of Lud's belief in demons inside the drums, and as deadly as that. I think when that belief became predominant, it may even have led to the world moving on... although I got to give it more thought. The whole saga for me is about Roland overcoming his false beliefs, fighting the fascination of Ka, and finally learning to exercise his free will, thus eventually becoming free.--contradicted by the pere's discovery of "the ka of Mid-World"?

[flaggwalkstheline]

I am notorious for reading Christianity into every line of TDT (at which you have already gracefully hinted before http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wink-1.gif)Are you calling me tactless? :wtf:
Perhaps so, but no offense meant. I may also be just as guilty of reading Christianity into things, if not quite as notorious. ;)
Anyroa', to rephrase, isn't much of this--
...What I think is that Ka is one of the many beliefs existing in Roland's world, akin to citizens of Lud's belief in demons inside the drums, and as deadly as that. I think when that belief became predominant, it may even have led to the world moving on... although I got to give it more thought. The whole saga for me is about Roland overcoming his false beliefs, fighting the fascination of Ka, and finally learning to exercise his free will, thus eventually becoming free.--contradicted by the pere's discovery of "the ka of Mid-World"?

I tend to overinsert polytheism into the DT more than I should lol
anyway...
I think that because Roland is the central character and all the stories and worlds somehow intersect with him then they are connected with his mostly predetermined fate by the loop as soon as roland goes somewhere or meets someone then they are immedietly touched by his Ka, in effect wherever roland goes, ka like a wind follows due to his mostly predetermined destiny. A world not touched by roland would in effect not be affected by kabecause it would not be in the loop the paradox being that all the DT except DT4's flashback takes place within it, with that exception, any story outside of it is something we as readers cannot see within it. another paradox is the fascinating question of just what he did leading up to the first time he climbed that staircase, because according to my theorizing that first time: his path was not 90% predetermined the way it became from then on

[Jean]

I am notorious for reading Christianity into every line of TDT (at which you have already gracefully hinted before http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wink-1.gif)Are you calling me tactless? :wtf:

I am calling you observant! http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif


Perhaps so, but no offense meant. I may also be just as guilty of reading Christianity into things, if not quite as notorious. ;)

No, you are not notorious, you are famous.


Anyroa', to rephrase, isn't much of this--
...What I think is that Ka is one of the many beliefs existing in Roland's world, akin to citizens of Lud's belief in demons inside the drums, and as deadly as that. I think when that belief became predominant, it may even have led to the world moving on... although I got to give it more thought. The whole saga for me is about Roland overcoming his false beliefs, fighting the fascination of Ka, and finally learning to exercise his free will, thus eventually becoming free.--contradicted by the pere's discovery of "the ka of Mid-World"? Yes, if we talk about his immediate experience, it is. It doesn't mean, however, that if he was given sufficient amount of leisure - thing absolutely necessary for clear, consistent and free thinking, especially when the matter is as complex as this - he would accept the notion in the form it existed in the school of thought Roland tried (not always consistently) to keep to. What he felt immediately was very much forced by the circumstances he could have never foreseen or thought of beforehand; I think in the end he would have seen that the notion is, as I tried to show at .net (and some day will resume trying here) partly reducible to others, partly just empty of meaning, partly product of ideology fabricated to enable survival, but he was not allowed these free thought, - though the refusal itself was a result of his free choice. He is, and has always been, confused, but at some point he chooses to choose action over reflection; and Ka, at the moment, is a concept that helps him - ad hoc - overcome his confusion and start direct action.

[pathoftheturtle]

Balderdash. :P

Getting a bit off topic, but I'd just like to clarify that my point about "serving the entire universe" wasn't meant to assert that Christianity should be presented so as to be universally acceptable. Firmly holding hard doctrines is fine and, IMO, admirable. I was talking about still being a Good Samaritan.
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

-- Matthew 7:22-23Nonetheless, Jean, I still think that you're being overly narrow, in defense of one perspective. When you're ready to show more detail, you might change my mind, (who knows?) but while I'll agree now that the systems of New Canaan had much room for improvement, I still think that they were better than what came just before, and I can't see what is so bad about ideology that enables survival or what is so problematic about ka in specific. :nope:

flaggwalkstheline: I don't know. That's complicated. Hard to argue, however. Time-travel, mysticism, religion, destiny, all of the things we're talking about here, often do involve irony of cause. I think that ka is everywhere, but then, it is hard to see how any world could actually be "not touched by" Roland's quest, anyway, since all things are eventually connected. It's stated several times in TDT that ka comes from the Dark Tower, so maybe, just maybe, the Divine Plan works in the DT mythos through Roland in a way like what you describe. :orely:

ETA -- To be more clear:What I think is more likely is that Roland looping is a result of ka, rather than the other way around.

[Jean]

spam? backsavekk, you have 24 hours to reveal yourself. If you are not a spammer (which you in all likelihood are, though), post something articulate.

Thank you.

[Brice]

Jean, fuck that! He is a spammer. Maul him. :)

[Jean]

wait, I am seasoning my breakfast... playing bear-and-mouse...

[Brice]

:D

[Letti]

yeah?

Best question of the thread. Hands down.

[blavigne]

yeah?

Best question of the thread. Hands down.

Letti you are too cool :)

[Storyslinger]

Jean, fuck that! He is a spammer. Maul him. :)

Do it! :lol:

[Jean]

: drumroll :

that's life of a spammer. Here today, gone tomorrow!

[Storyslinger]

If ka wills it, so be it

[Sai Sheb]

I believe!
Only when we are open to belief van we see / witness it.
Ka leads us to points in our lives that we must visit or a reason but with our eyes closed we miss all the heavenly glory. There was a belief that we thought life into existence, Ka works along the same path, we can tell it what we need (see it, feel it) and leave the rest to Ka...

[BadWolfGirl]

In ancient Egypt, I believe, Ka was basically one's soul or self. It was the essence of a person that had to be preserved for the afterlife. But since I'm definitely not a scholar of ancient history, I have to wonder (rather than know) if that concept wasn't broader. Could that have been the inspiration for Stephen King's "Ka" which seems to mean Fate/Destiny more than anything else?