The prisoner of the...

[Letti]

The Crimson King is the prisoner of the Tower the way I see it. He can't leave the balcony.
Why did the Tower/Gan or I don't know did it to him? What would have happened if he could have reached the top? Did the Tower try to avoid something horrible?
Would the same have happened to Roland if he had stopped at the balcony?

[ManOfWesternesse]

God Letti, you always come up with the questions that force us to turn our brains (poor thing that it is, personally speaking) inside out! :lol:

Well, something trapped old CK on the Balcony. Was it Gan, or the Tower itself. Were we told? (I feel a re-read coming on!). Why? Because, given his connection to the line of Eld the CK would, like Roland, have been able to open the door at the top - and that was not desirable to Gan/Tower/Whatever. WHAT might CK have done had he reached that room..... was the harm only that Roland would never then have reached it & was THAT why Gan/Tower intervened to prevent it?
(I'm asking a lot of questions and answering none, methinks)

On the second question, NO - I don't think Roland would have been trapped on the Balcony, I think that was a trap for the CK only (or for Mordred too should he have reached it first?)

[Letti]

Some more questions. Great. :D

[Wuducynn]

The Crimson King is the prisoner of the Tower the way I see it. He can't leave the balcony.
Why did the Tower/Gan or I don't know did it to him? What would have happened if he could have reached the top? Did the Tower try to avoid something horrible?
Would the same have happened to Roland if he had stopped at the balcony?

Yes, Los' is the prisoner of the Tower which is Gan's physical body. It sure seems to me that Gan wanted to hold Los' there until the gunslingers could save the Beams and then they (Gan and the reborn Beams) would collectively weaken and entrap the Crimson King, to keep him from climbing to the top and destroying them.
Mordred was Los's last hope of both helping the Breakers break the last beams and/or slaying the gunslingers before Roland could make it close the Tower. Mordred was also Los's last hope of releasing him from his prison on the Tower balcony, because he was at that point too weak to be able to do it himself.

[ManOfWesternesse]

....the Tower which is Gan's physical body.....

Good post CK. Not really sure I buy this bit ^^ though? You base that on anything specific?

[Jean]

on comics, as far as I know

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_whistle.gif

I've had a long discussion with the partisans of that theory somewhere, because for me this idea seems outrageously vulgar and oversimplified, comics or no comics. Moreover, I am not inclined to bring the comics into any more or less serious discussion, - but that's for another thread, too

[Wuducynn]

....the Tower which is Gan's physical body.....

Good post CK. Not really sure I buy this bit ^^ though? You base that on anything specific?

Several parts of the series that I don't have access to at the moment and the graphic novels.

[Wuducynn]

When I get home I'll find the references for you, Brian. If I remember to. If the stars and planets are in the right alignment.

[ManOfWesternesse]

When I get home I'll find the references for you, Brian. If I remember to. If the stars and planets are in the right alignment.
:lol: You can read it in the entrails of a chicken while you prepare dinner!

[Wuducynn]

How did you...know...



:o



shhhhhhhhhh

[Brainslinger]

The idea that the Tower is Gan's physical body isn't just mentioned in the comics. It's something Roland speculates about in the field of roses. Roland could be wrong, but it came across revelatory....

[Wuducynn]

Roland could be wrong, but it came across revelatory....


Right. It sure seems at that moment he would know what he is talking about. Not pure speculation on his part.

[Jean]

The idea that the Tower is Gan's physical body isn't just mentioned in the comics. It's something Roland speculates about in the field of roses. Roland could be wrong, but it came across revelatory....
Roland has never struck me as anyone who is very good at metaphysics or theology. That's precisely the vulgar idea he might have had once he had started, instead of relying to his hunches and intuitions immediately, to force them into words and categories. Too bad the comics autors followed him.

[jayson]

... instead of relying to his hunches and intuitions immediately, to force them into words and categories.

in buddhist terms, I'd say this is why he doesn't break free of his looping. only when categories of description are surpassed is enlightenment achieved.

[Brainslinger]

Roland could be wrong, but it came across revelatory....


Right. It sure seems at that moment he would know what he is talking about.


Roland has never struck me as anyone who is very good at metaphysics or theology. That's precisely the vulgar idea he might have had once he had started, instead of relying to his hunches and intuitions immediately, to force them into words and categories.

That's the thing though Jean, in that section you get the impression it is an intuition on his part, i.e. something that just occurred to him. Not deep theological speculation, something which I agree isn't something he is given to.

I remember it being mentioned that whilst Roland does get things wrong, if he has a particular intuition about something, he tends to be right.

I'll try and grab the quote soon so we can decide for ourselves straight from the source.

[alinda]

... instead of relying to his hunches and intuitions immediately, to force them into words and categories.

in buddhist terms, I'd say this is why he doesn't break free of his looping. only when categories of description are surpassed is enlightenment achieved.


:clap:

[Brainslinger]

Ok, considering whether or not the tower is Gan's body. Here is a link to a post I did on another thread. (Save repeating myself.)

PROOF FROM OUTSIDE THE COMICS. (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showpost.php?p=166566&postcount=32)

[Letti]

It's quite strange to see such a short post from you, Brainslinger. ;)

[mia/susannah]

i think that the crimson king was trapped on the balcony so that he could not get to the top before Roland and so that Roland could save the beams therefore saving the dark tower.

[alinda]

Exactly so. that said, I was about to say that
in my opinon we all are the creators of our own
prisions whatever they may be.GOD/Gan it seems
to me have no reason to imprison us..it is rather
we who make the bricks out of our very beliefs.
The CK perhaps set his own inability to proceed
(his own trap) with his fear (s) and inadequacy.
Post loosing his mind of course.

[Brainslinger]

It's quite strange to see such a short post from you, Brainslinger. ;)

Cheeky!

You should see the post I link to. I talk more in that one. (Not as near as much as I did in that Callahan thread you started though.)

Funny thing is, when I'm with people, I'm usually the quiet one sipping his beer whilst the others chat away. I guess I make up for it online.

[Matt]

The CK perhaps set his own inability to proceed
(his own trap) with his fear (s) and inadequacy.
Post loosing his mind of course.

I agree and I think his access to the Tower was blocked by fear long before he went crazy.

[Wuducynn]

This fear keeping the CK trapped is very interesting but do you have any evidence of this within the series books or graphic novels?

[Matt]

I didn't say his fear trapped him, I said his fear meant that he could never reach the top.

I was just agreeing with the idea.

I personally believe The Tower is a personal manifestation and so if we assume it is the "CK" Tower than it trapped him because of what was inside himself. Evil

[Wuducynn]

The CK perhaps set his own inability to proceed
(his own trap) with his fear (s) and inadequacy.
Post loosing his mind of course.

I agree and I think his access to the Tower was blocked by fear long before he went crazy.

Okay, if thats not what you're saying than please help me understand, where you say you agree to Linda's post above where she quite clearly states that she feels that the CK perhaps sets his own inability to proceed (his own trap) with his fear? It seems to work out to be the same thing.

[Matt]

That is exactly what I mean. The CK was "trapped" but only in a physical way on the Tower balcony.

However, I believe Linda's point is that no matter what he did or how hard he tried, a being like the CK could never actually climb to the top. Because the Tower is you in many ways and what was inside of him prevented that.

The balcony and locked door are simply ways to physically illustrate the fact.

[mia/susannah]

matt, I think you and alinda had a great answer. I tend to think along the same lines

[Wuducynn]

Its interesting speculation, but I don't see any basis in it. We know that the Crimson King has been trying to bring down the Tower for a long, long time. We know that he snapped when he saw Roland's ka-tet's victory at Blue Heaven, killed almost everyone in his castle, and then rode to the Dark Tower wrapped in a storm, and got onto a balcony of the Tower and was trapped on the balcony.
We also know from events in Black House that he was weakened by the destruction of An Tak, his engine for spreading discordia, strong speculation says that An Tak is the same as the King's Forge.
My speculation still stands that Los' was trapped on the Tower balcony because of the re-awakening Beams weakening him and by Gan so that he doesn't climb to the top where there is a real possibility he could destroy the Dark Tower.
So Gan and the Beams have trapped the King until Roland and Patrick come to do battle with him and hopefully win. I am not convinced that Gan holds all the cards and has total control over all events so that it can make sure Roland wins in each loop and stop the Crimson King.
I think the danger to the Tower is real each time.

[alinda]

Maybe it was his KA.

[obscurejude]

Its interesting speculation, but I don't see any basis in it. We know that the Crimson King has been trying to bring down the Tower for a long, long time. We know that he snapped when he saw Roland's ka-tet's victory at Blue Heaven, killed almost everyone in his castle, and then rode to the Dark Tower wrapped in a storm, and got onto a balcony of the Tower and was trapped on the balcony.
We also know from events in Black House that he was weakened by the destruction of An Tak, his engine for spreading discordia, strong speculation says that An Tak is the same as the King's Forge.
My speculation still stands that Los' was trapped on the Tower balcony because of the re-awakening Beams weakening him and by Gan so that he doesn't climb to the top where there is a real possibility he could destroy the Dark Tower.
So Gan and the Beams have trapped the King until Roland and Patrick come to do battle with him and hopefully win. I am not convinced that Gan holds all the cards and has total control over all events so that it can make sure Roland wins in each loop and stop the Crimson King.
I think the danger to the Tower is real each time.

I'm very much in agreement with CK on this one. The three Stephen Kings pretty much say the same thing to Roland and Susannah. CK was permanently placed on the balcony once Blue Heaven was destroyed. Fimalo tells Roland that his interest in going to the tower is self serving for the fact that it might give Los an out if he obtains one of the guns of Eld, which would let him leave the balcony. Other than that, the CK is trapped indefinitely.

[Letti]

I don't think CK can/could destroy the Tower.
He is the prisoner of the balcony because... how can I put it into words... it's like when a splinter goes into your finger. Slowly you body throws and pushes it out because it feels it doesn't belong there. A little splinter under the skin can't kill the body but that's how the body works.
I feel something similar happened to CK, too.

[Matt]

Great description of the idea Letti. I agree and I think the CK could be summed up as nothing more than an irritant to the Dark Tower.

It is, after all, the center off all time and space and size.

[Jean]

I don't know if I agree with the idea, but it sure is a terrific metaphor!

[Letti]

Thank you, guys. It came to my mind immediately as I tried to explain how I thought it and I couldn't get rid of it... so I wrote it down.

[Merlin1958]

Its interesting speculation, but I don't see any basis in it. We know that the Crimson King has been trying to bring down the Tower for a long, long time. We know that he snapped when he saw Roland's ka-tet's victory at Blue Heaven, killed almost everyone in his castle, and then rode to the Dark Tower wrapped in a storm, and got onto a balcony of the Tower and was trapped on the balcony.
We also know from events in Black House that he was weakened by the destruction of An Tak, his engine for spreading discordia, strong speculation says that An Tak is the same as the King's Forge.
My speculation still stands that Los' was trapped on the Tower balcony because of the re-awakening Beams weakening him and by Gan so that he doesn't climb to the top where there is a real possibility he could destroy the Dark Tower.
So Gan and the Beams have trapped the King until Roland and Patrick come to do battle with him and hopefully win. I am not convinced that Gan holds all the cards and has total control over all events so that it can make sure Roland wins in each loop and stop the Crimson King.
I think the danger to the Tower is real each time.


This may seem a little simpler than you all would prefer but I think the CK became the prisoner of the Tower for the simple reason that he was crazy enough to enter it. Plus. as previously mentioned in this thread. he removed his mark of Eld. I think that removing the mark trapped him on the balcony itself but had he not removed it he still would not be strong enough to reach the room at the top.

I think the key to the CK be able to "enter the room" was weakening and bringing the Tower down to his level a la Satan in Paradise Lost. Otherwise, what would really have prevented him from entering the Tower long before Roland ever got there? As the comics hint, wasn't the "Evil Plan" to bring forth a child bearing the mark of Eld with Chaos seed from the start? otherwise why the ruse in the court of Arthur Eld (Gunslinger Born)?

Just some thoughts

[mia/susannah]

merlin1958, great post. I don't have the comics to read but I tend to think that CK is trapped on the balcony to keep him from causing more damage to the Dark Tower. I may be wrong

[pathoftheturtle]

I don't think CK can/could destroy the Tower.
He is the prisoner of the balcony because... how can I put it into words... it's like when a splinter goes into your finger. Slowly you body throws and pushes it out because it feels it doesn't belong there. A little splinter under the skin can't kill the body but that's how the body works.
I feel something similar happened to CK, too.It can lead to an infection, actually, and end up killing you that way. I may be wrong, and I hate to contradict the positive attitude, because I basically agree about the CK as a threat. However, I have never had the experience, myself, of a splinter just being pushed out. I know the body feels it doesn’t belong there, and it will react, in part by sending you increasing pain signals, but when I get a splinter, I go after it myself, with a needle. In India, they say “It takes a thorn to remove a thorn.” What I mean to say, in essence, is that I think Gan uses Roland.
...I am not convinced that Gan holds all the cards and has total control over all events so that it can make sure Roland wins in each loop and stop the Crimson King.
I think the danger to the Tower is real each time.Perhaps. You may be right; King does seem awfully fond of that idea that “the column of truth has a hole in it.” I personally do believe it, though... that it is ka, it’s meant to be, all of that...
...The three Stephen Kings pretty much say the same thing to Roland and Susannah. CK was permanently placed on the balcony once Blue Heaven was destroyed. Fimalo tells Roland that his interest in going to the tower is self serving for the fact that it might give Los an out if he obtains one of the guns of Eld, which would let him leave the balcony. Other than that, the CK is trapped indefinitely.Okay, well, let me just say once and for all that I do not trust Rando Thoughtful. “Stephen King” and “Fimalo” both turn out to be aliases; the only thing from this scene which “we know” for sure is that they were definitely deceptive, offering food that was really foulest poison. Plus, this guy says “The job is done, there’s no more threat, everything is fine,” and then he gets eaten by Mordred. I say that if they’d listened to him, the same (at best) is what would have happened to the multiverse: we all would have gotten eaten by Mordred.
...I personally believe The Tower is a personal manifestation and so if we assume it is the "CK" Tower than it trapped him because of what was inside himself. EvilIf I understand what you are saying, I don’t quite agree with that idea, either.
Another nineteen steps took him to the second landing and the second room. Here bits of cloth were scattered across the circular floor. Roland had no question that they had once been an infant’s clout, torn to shreds by a certain petulant interloper, who had then gone out onto the balcony for a look back at the field of roses and found himself betaken.The simplest explanation would seem to be that “the interloper” was petulant over the fact that these rooms are dedicated to the life of Roland. Do you think the torn clout was pure illusion made for Roland? That he sees it as a “translation” of some other artifact, one from CK’s own life, that he had torn up for some other reason? Or could you agree with me that the evil inside him might have gotten him trapped even if The Tower we're shown is a universal manifestation?

I like this thread a lot, Letti, and hope to try to give my own answers for the questions which you started it with, before too long. At the moment, though, I just felt like bumping it, and sharing some opinions about these other theories. Hope it's alright. :)

[Darkthoughts]

Too bad the comics autors followed him.
But they are led by Stephen King, which is why I take it as canon. I know that you refuse to consider extra material once a series has reached "The End" though :D



Roland had no question that they had once been an infant’s clout, torn to shreds by a certain petulant interloper, who had then gone out onto the balcony for a look back at the field of roses and found himself betaken.The simplest explanation would seem to be that “the interloper” was petulant over the fact that these rooms are dedicated to the life of Roland. Do you think the torn clout was pure illusion made for Roland? That he sees it as a “translation” of some other artifact, one from CK’s own life, that he had torn up for some other reason? Or could you agree with me that the evil inside him might have gotten him trapped even if The Tower we're shown is a universal manifestation?
That's an excellent point! Because I think we generally assume that the Tower is different for each individual that enters it.

Then again, if you need the mark of the Eld to reach the top, perhaps it is only for people of that lineage and the rooms within are only pertainent to those of the Eld.

Or...

...perhaps as Roland is trapped in the loop, the Tower is for him alone (which would mirror his obsession with it) and therefore anyone entering it would see the rooms Roland sees time and time again.

[Brainslinger]

Considering whether the Tower was ever really in danger from the Crimson King...

If the beams had all weakened, certainly. However, ka is such that, I think Roland would prevent that from happening each loop. I might have misunderstood the way ka works, but considering that there appear to have been lots of loops before this, and Roland saved the Beams each time it seems a fair conclusion to come to.

If the Crimson King reached the top room, also very likely the Tower would fall. However, would he ever reach the top, even if he had never been trapped on the balcony? If he had reached the door at the top, couldn't the Tower have just deposited him somewhere in his past like it did Roland? Maybe sticking him on the balcony was just to make certain of his fate with the gunslinger, and er, rubberslinger. (That's eraserslinger in Americanese. I'm not suggesting Patrick flicked condoms at him, although that is a funny image,

Red eyes eh? thought Patrick. How's this for an encore?

Thwack!
"EEEEEEEEEE!") A way of dealing with him once and for all. Well, in this loop anyway. (I think it's still relevant and that time continues even when Roland is sent back. Otherwise Susannah meeting with the new brothers Toren would be short-lived.)

Ultimately, I'm not convinced the Tower would/will ever fall.

[theBeamisHome]

gosh guys... i thought he couldn't go up because he didn't have the guns.. lol

[Darkthoughts]

If the Crimson King reached the top room, also very likely the Tower would fall. However, would he ever reach the top, even if he had never been trapped on the balcony? If he had reached the door at the top, couldn't the Tower have just deposited him somewhere in his past like it did Roland?
I was thinking this earlier when I was reading this thread. It seems a little contradictory doesn't it.
On one hand we're told that if the CK reaches the top he will vanquish the Tower. But on the other hand, the Tower has the power to throw Roland into a loop each time he reaches the summit - so why not the CK too?

Unless of course, its something to do with the Tower's power only being relative to Roland - which again fits in with the idea that the loop is outside of time and the actions performed in each loop affect nothing but Roland, ie the whole journey is a purgatory (but obviously not an infinite one, as shown by Roland obtaining the horn on the last loop).

[Letti]

...perhaps as Roland is trapped in the loop, the Tower is for him alone (which would mirror his obsession with it) and therefore anyone entering it would see the rooms Roland sees time and time again.

Yes, I agree that the Tower is for Roland alone but I don't think CK could have seen those rooms full of Roland's past.
I think he would have seen empty rooms and he would have found a blank door at the top of the Tower (that would have never opened for him BUT for my part I think the Tower forced him to step on the balcony to lock him out. He didn't belong there.

[Darkthoughts]

But the CK had ripped up some of Roland's baby clothes in the room who's balcony he was trapped in...

[pathoftheturtle]

Considering whether the Tower was ever really in danger from the Crimson King...

If the beams had all weakened, certainly. However, ka is such that, I think Roland would prevent that from happening each loop. ...Yeah, that's what I think, too. What the CK's minion says is that he has found a way into the Tower's mouth, and holds it against Roland; that if he cannot climb it, he just wants to deny Roland what he wants, and doesn't care at all about understanding it.

I believe that Roland (and his inevitable approach) is what was on the CK's mind when he stepped out to look back. His own fear and apprehension led him to make the choice that ka wanted him to. He's really just there to oppose the hero's entry.

What I don't agree with is the advice to let him have his way in that. Rando Thoughtful says that they'll pass beyond ka if they don't turn back, but I don't think that's true at all. Taking the guns might be the CK's plan, but that doesn't mean that Roland has to be afraid. It comes down to a judgement call, but I think the call that he does make is the one that keeps him under ka's protection.

[Brainslinger]

What I don't agree with is the advice to let him have his way in that. Rando Thoughtful says that they'll pass beyond ka if they don't turn back, but I don't think that's true at all.

I agree. I don't think the 3 Kings were lying over a lot of the things they said, (apart from the 'food' and their disguise of course) but I do think they may have been incorrect on some particulars. Particularly that bit about being beyond ka. I don't think anyone is ever beyond ka (in the world of the story), except possibly when they die.... and maybe not even then.

[Bumbler19]

well i thought i understood this well...

CK in a way renounced the tower even when he was inside it, the fact he took a gander outside shows he puts himself before the tower, HE wanted to take one last look outside, or one last look at what he intended to destroy. He was Selfish, therefore barred from reentry.

Its like... you are on your way to heaven, eternal bliss, amazingness, eternal life, everything you could ever dream of you ever wanted you ever needed right there in heaven and you are on your way there, but then being like... I think i'll stop at the red light district to get one last Squirt out on a whore before I go... personally I don't think God is gonna go for that, do you?

Roland wanted to make it to the top... period.

[Letti]

Its like... you are on your way to heaven, eternal bliss, amazingness, eternal life, everything you could ever dream of you ever wanted you ever needed right there in heaven and you are on your way there, but then being like... I think i'll stop at the red light district to get one last Squirt out on a whore before I go... personally I don't think God is gonna go for that, do you?

Hm, nice thought.
But if you ever can step on the path to Heaven I don't think you are that type of person who will take a short visit at your favourite whore.

CK never had a chance to enter the top room. My two cents.

[razz]

here's a question: Why did he go out ON to the Balcony? was he forced onto it? Because i seriously doubt he became distracted by the beauty of the CanKaNoRe when he looked out there.

[Letti]

here's a question: Why did he go out ON to the Balcony? was he forced onto it? Because i seriously doubt he became distracted by the beauty of the CanKaNoRe when he looked out there.

Because he thought he owned everything and he wanted to feel it with every sick cell of his. You know... when you buy your new castle and you don't give a damn about the view but the money you spent and you feel proud and you step in the balcony and you feel you are the king of the world.
Something like this.

[razz]

So the crazy mofo did it because he wanted to fell like a homeowner? :wtf:

[Letti]

So the crazy mofo did it because he wanted to fell like a homeowner? :wtf:

You know what I meant. ;)
Anyway he might have wanted to take a last look at the world. He was planning to destroy the Tower and I think he was sure he could destroy the whole universe with that, too.

[razz]

yeah i know what you meant :P

So you're saying he went out there, because he wanted to look at something that he would soon destroy. kind of gloating.

[Letti]

yeah i know what you meant :P

So you're saying he went out there, because he wanted to look at something that he would soon destroy. kind of gloating.

Yeah, just like the killer looks deep into his victim's eyes... full of sick joy.

[jayson]

I figured he went out there to wait for Mordred, maybe not realizing he'd be trapped out there. He wanted Mordred to enter and climb the Tower with him so they could bring it down and rule the ensuing chaos together.

[Letti]

I figured he went out there to wait for Mordred, maybe not realizing he'd be trapped out there. He wanted Mordred to enter and climb the Tower with him so they could bring it down and rule the ensuing chaos together.

Why do you think he cared about Mordred at all?

[jayson]

He seemed pretty pissed off when Roland killed him. I'd not go so far as to say he loved him. I don't think the CK loves anything. But I do think the potential of Mordred to help him in his plans meant something to him.

The CK did plot for Mordred's creation, and I suspect he had more in mind than just creating something that could kill Roland.

It's something I wish King would have fleshed out a bit more. Mordred seemed a bit too much like an undeveloped afterthought to really figure out much.

[Letti]

He seemed pretty pissed off when Roland killed him.

I don't remember it... I need a reread. I remember that he was pissed of when Roland arrived (EEEEEEEEEEEE) but I think the very sight of Roland made him bloody pissed.

[jayson]

Roland's presence indeed pissed him off, but I vaguely remember him (the CK) saying some things about Roland killing his son which indicated he was none too pleased about it. I'd need to look at the book to find anything exact, or perhaps someone else will find something and post it.

[Letti]

Roland's presence indeed pissed him off, but I vaguely remember him (the CK) saying some things about Roland killing his son which indicated he was none too pleased about it. I'd need to look at the book to find anything exact, or perhaps someone else will find something and post it.

I'll check it, too.

[Bumbler19]

He seemed pretty pissed off when Roland killed him. I'd not go so far as to say he loved him. I don't think the CK loves anything. But I do think the potential of Mordred to help him in his plans meant something to him.

The CK did plot for Mordred's creation, and I suspect he had more in mind than just creating something that could kill Roland.

It's something I wish King would have fleshed out a bit more. Mordred seemed a bit too much like an undeveloped afterthought to really figure out much.
__________________


Why do you think he cared about Mordred at all?


I figured he went out there to wait for Mordred, maybe not realizing he'd be trapped out there. He wanted Mordred to enter and climb the Tower with him so they could bring it down and rule the ensuing chaos together.



Mordred had TWO purposes, one was to kill Roland, the other was to reopen the door on the balcony.

The red mark on his foot which turned into (an hourglass? i think? if i remember correctly) when in spider form was a mark of ELD, which would grant access to the tower, and also reopen the door on the balcony.

That is the reason Walter/man in black/flagg was in the Dogan in fedic... he needed to essentially tear off mordred's spider stomach (where the mark was). In order to obtain a mark of Eld to get into the Tower. Of course the whole thing backfired a bit...

I remember this whole thing pretty clearly... it was explained awfully thoroughly >.>

So whether or not CK actually cared for Mordred in particular, I dunno, I just know that he was upset because without Mordred he only had a very, very small chance of reentering the tower, only other way was to somehow obtain Roland's guns as explained by the 3Kings.

As for why he was out there in the first place... Roland thinks to himself as he passes the second floor (where CK was) he thinks to himself and says something close to "I could go out on the balcony, and take one last look at those beautiful roses, but I won't make that mistake, like the Crimson King." not sure of exact wording...

To me, that said CK either wanted to literally, like Roland go look at the roses one more time, or at least go and see all that he was attempting to destroy before he destroyed it.

[The King of Kings]

But wouldn't that mean he had to enter the Tower in order to get to that balcony in the first place?

[Bumbler19]

But wouldn't that mean he had to enter the Tower in order to get to that balcony in the first place?

Well there is two possibilities I think...

A. it didn't matter that he had a mark of eld, if he renounced the tower it was going to refuse him access, its like he was hoping that he could slip in the door when mordred opened it. Similarly how the 3kings talked about with Roland and his guns.

B. Remember the torn up baby clothes? other threads have explored the idea that they weren't really Roland's baby clothes, but CK's original mark of Eld... He tore it up for some reason only a luntic can really conclude, and maybe he figured since Mordred was born, going to kill Roland, and then enter the tower, that he didn't really need his own mark anyway.

Maybe he did go out on the balcony to wait for mordred, but i also thing that CK didn't want to fight Roland inside the tower, for many reasons, cramped, maybe he figured Roland had a better chance inside the tower, so he went out on the balcony to try and take out Roland before he even entered.

[pathoftheturtle]

...Remember the torn up baby clothes? other threads have explored the idea that they weren't really Roland's baby clothes, but CK's original mark of Eld... He tore it up for some reason only a luntic can really conclude...:unsure:Ok, I'm looking for those threads now.

Currently, I still like the idea that it was because of Roland on his backtrail that the CK looked away, but I must admit that textual points do seem to more support the "homeowner" angle.:orely:

[Darkthoughts]

Surely the CK should have been able to enter the Tower simply because he is Arthur Eld's son (abomination though he is!)
I think alot of the end game is contradictory and slightly rushed.

[jayson]

I think alot all of the end game is contradictory and slightly exceptionally rushed.

Fixed that for you. :evil:

[Wuducynn]

Surely the CK should have been able to enter the Tower simply because he is Arthur Eld's son (abomination though he is!)
I think alot a lot of the end game is contradictory and slightly rushed. But my opinion is always wrong about this kind of thing anyway so I really shouldn't post.

Fixed that for you :huglove:

[flaggwalkstheline]

Technically the CK still had conscioussness at the "end" of the story, hence him goading roland into facing him on the balcony, I think being bested like that must have really pissed him off but if he had known what Flagg knew judging by his tarot reading of roland I think he would have been a little bit less angry and more "c'mon up! make urself at home!"

[Bumbler19]

Surely the CK should have been able to enter the Tower simply because he is Arthur Eld's son (abomination though he is!)
I think alot of the end game is contradictory and slightly rushed.

I don't ever remember reading anything about simply being of the line of Eld. Everything I remember always says something or another about having a sigul. But just because SK didn't write about him having a sigul, doesn't mean he didn't have one, SK just knew it wasn't an important detail to list specifically what it was. Although it makes us all wonder soooo much grrrr

[jayson]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole "needing a sigul of the Eld" thing was in reference to RF's thoughts about his own planned entrance to the Tower. He was not of the Eld and thus thought he'd need a sigul to get in.

It also raises the question of whether or not he was even correct in his assumptions. The "rule" was part of his thinking not something out of a "Dark Tower Rules & Guidelines" text. It's like the sticking points some people have with the time issues of the Keystone world. It was never more than speculation on the part of the characters so it need not be fit into and hard and fast rules.

[Bumbler19]

Well... there is also a lot of information that points towards the fact of a sigul is required. True, some things are from characters such as the 3Kings, others are little facts that point toward it... The 3Kings went fairly in depth about Roland's guns(his sigul) and how CK would need them(or his son's sigul) to get back in, if only the line of eld was necessary CK wouldnt need either of their siguls for CK is of the line of Eld.

Fact that points to it for instance, Mordred wouldn't need a sigul at all. If all he needed to be of was the line of eld... he was CK's son, making him Eld, as well as Rolands making him Eld, the red foot and hourglass held no other importance other than MAYBE the symbolic significance of the painting of mordred standing over the (Pegasus?) But now i'm just pulling at strings.



I guess I can see your conclusion about Flagg getting the sigul from Mordred scene, and how maybe it was just Flagg's delusion. But I think the 3Kings scene ruins that for me... Ok I guess they could be lying or wrong about it, but I don't think they were about the guns/sigul thing. There is just something about the reiteration that I conclude to be true IMO:panic::pullhair::panic:

Again this is more of a thought of Roland's but the was tempted to go outside on the balcony but refused and was thinking that he did not want to be trapped there, implying that if he lost his guns to CK, or w/e he wouldn't be able to get back in....

[pathoftheturtle]

...I guess I can see your conclusion about Flagg getting the sigul from Mordred scene, and how maybe it was just Flagg's delusion. But I think the 3Kings scene ruins that for me... Ok I guess they could be lying or wrong about it, but I don't think they were about the guns/sigul thing. There is just something about the reiteration that I conclude to be true IMO:panic::pullhair::panic:

...Maybe that's just you knowing SK's style. It does make lots of sense that individual characters may not know everything, and that they may have particular theories based on their own perspectives, but such things rarely happen in King's novels. :| That's why telepathy and prescience are such great devices for him: One character will decide to think of something by a pet name out of his own history, and then, within a few chapters, everyone everywhere is familiar with it, somehow. There are lots of examples; a tendency that's rather frustrating when we wish to analyze the logic in his series.:arg:

[Bumbler19]

Kinda like how sometimes they stay in the same place but the dialect slightly changes 50 pages later? XD and other characters use the same dialect and have nothing to do w/ that region XD

[gunszingx]

How about it was Ka that placed the CK on the balcony. The balcony itself was a trap. Whether it was Roland or the CK or whoever. CK fell for the trap thank Gan.