I thought this was going to be a futuristic Earth story

[FatherofRoland]

When I first read The Gunslinger, I really thought we were reading about a story on Earth far into the future after all of our civilization and machines ruined things. I still thought this until somewhere into the 2nd book.

Do you think this was King's intentions at first, but then he changed this as he went on?

I know he says he had an originaly outline that he lost so he supposedly had the whole story worked out in general before starting. But I really felt that we were reading about a guy far into the future, and I think that would have been a cool story, too.

[Wuducynn]

Do you think this was King's intentions at first, but then he changed this as he went on?


No, I think it was always meant to be an alternate world a lot like ours in some ways but totally different in others. What I always found very fascinating was that the more you read through the saga (and Insomnia and Black House) the more you understand the greater meaning behind the connections between our world and All-World.
Each time I have re-read the saga it hits me too.

[obscurejude]

Along with what CK said, I think King had very definitive themes that he wanted to write about, like the dangers of technologically advanced societies for instance. Although the theme may be more clearly presented than the the history of All-World in the Gunslinger, I think King clearly thought of Roland's world as an alternate to our earth, Jake's story for instance, "the boy from Earth." I can see where "Hey Jude" in the first chapter might throw you off, but All World and Keystone Earth are closely intertwined, twins, if you will. FatherofRoland, if you've read the whole series, you might find the "Keystone Earth" thread interesting as we've been trying to figure some of these things out pretty recently.

[Matt]

This conversation reminds me of a comment my son made as we were watching the original Star Wars movies...

"A long time ago in a far away place"

He wondered how the past could be so technologically advanced and I said it was their past (remember, he's 14 and just trying to grasp this stuff).

Obviously the example is about other universes or "worlds" than our own but I think it applies. There was never any reason for me to believe that Rolands world was in the future of ours because of the nature of the story.

there are other worlds than these...

[LadyHitchhiker]

I just figured this story was well into the future after the people took back over the world after the terminators had taken over the world...



*tongue in cheek*

[Woofer]

Welcome, FatherofRoland.

I have to agree that I think it was always a different world with ties to and crossovers with our own. I would've liked to see more of how ours was influenced by Roland's.

[FatherofRoland]

This conversation reminds me of a comment my son made as we were watching the original Star Wars movies...

"A long time ago in a far away place"

He wondered how the past could be so technologically advanced and I said it was their past (remember, he's 14 and just trying to grasp this stuff).

Obviously the example is about other universes or "worlds" than our own but I think it applies. There was never any reason for me to believe that Rolands world was in the future of ours because of the nature of the story.

there are other worlds than these...

Well, by the end of the book there are obvious issues and after you read the next book it becomes very obvious, but I just felt as I started reading The Gunslinger the very first time, without having any idea what the whole story was about, I thought this was a futuristic Earth, after our technology and war machines got the best of us. I don't usually start of reading books assuming they are talking about a parallel universe.

I actually like thinking about it as a futuristic earth because I think it is a good thought about what we may be heading for with our huge advances in technology and very little advancement in humanity (an unfortunately I think most average people mistake advances in technology for advancement in humanity). [Being able to text message really isn't much different the telegraphing someone, although the technology is fancier].

I guess a parallel universe means the same type of thing could happen to the Keystone world.

[Letti]

1. When I first read The Gunslinger, I really thought we were reading about a story on Earth far into the future after all of our civilization and machines ruined things. I still thought this until somewhere into the 2nd book.

Do you think this was King's intentions at first, but then he changed this as he went on?

1. It's an interesting idea and I can understand why these things came to your mind but for my part I had never thought anything like this. :)

2. I don't think he changed his mind. King didn't know all the details /of course/ but he knew what he had been writing about.

[obscurejude]

Welcome, FatherofRoland.

I have to agree that I think it was always a different world with ties to and crossovers with our own. I would've liked to see more of how ours was influenced by Roland's.

Me too Woofer. That was one of those things in the Talisman that I was hoping would be explored more in the DT series- how thin places between the worlds have all sorts of overlap and how certain careless actions can have catastrophic consequences (wasn't there something about how one thing something in the territories began WWII or something).

[CyberGhostface]

The book I got made reference on the back to Jake being "the boy from Earth" so I figured that it took place in some alternate world.

[mia/susannah]

I would not say an alternate world, just a alternate when and where maybe, different worlds as well

[LadyHitchhiker]

I kinda thought Jake was from our Earth ...

[Philzilla]

I remember thinking it was the world of The Stand far into the the future.

[LadyHitchhiker]

Perhaps...

[Powdered Water]

A lot of good points all around folks. I guess I'm in the camp that always thought he was in his own world and I always thought that that was made pretty clear as early as the first book when he first meets Jake. If that wasn't clear enough it was certainly made clear during The Drawing of the Three.

[Wuducynn]

A lot of good points all around folks. I guess I'm in the camp that always thought he was in his own world and I always thought that that was made pretty clear as early as the first book when he first meets Jake. If that wasn't clear enough it was certainly made clear during The Drawing of the Three.

We're both campers in that camp then, cause I've always felt the same.

[ChickenPissInTheRoad]

In my opinion, this IS a futuristic earth story. I think it's very far into the future, after some kind of apocalypse, and it's still slowly withering away. The doors (in the second one, I dunno if you've read that one yet) are time traveling devices.

[Chap]

well it kind of IS a futuristic world story IMO. because Rolands world, before it "moved on" was very much like our own. So even if it isn't about this world - it's maybe about earth twinner? :thumbsup:

[Letti]

well it kind of IS a futuristic world story IMO. because Rolands world, before it "moved on" was very much like our own. So even if it isn't about this world - it's maybe about earth twinner? :thumbsup:

I see Roland's world (before the moving on) quite different from ours.

[Chap]

well it kind of IS a futuristic world story IMO. because Rolands world, before it "moved on" was very much like our own. So even if it isn't about this world - it's maybe about earth twinner? :thumbsup:

I see Roland's world (before the moving on) quite different from ours.

Really?
The following may contain spoilers for those who haven't read the whole series

I saw Rolands world (specifically the "Gilead when", but also later) as a post-apocalyptic earth, simular to what ours may/will be in the future. Technology is still there, but noone knows exactly how it works, and none can build any new machines. The result of the death of technology is, in the book, that people turn back to the more natural and non-scientific ways of magic and superstition. There are many simularities with our world (advertising, nazis, big cities of steel and concrete etc).

[Letti]

well it kind of IS a futuristic world story IMO. because Rolands world, before it "moved on" was very much like our own. So even if it isn't about this world - it's maybe about earth twinner? :thumbsup:

I see Roland's world (before the moving on) quite different from ours.

Really?
The following may contain spoilers for those who haven't read the whole series

I saw Rolands world (specifically the "Gilead when", but also later) as a post-apocalyptic earth, simular to what ours may/will be in the future. Technology is still there, but noone knows exactly how it works, and none can build any new machines. The result of the death of technology is, in the book, that people turn back to the more natural and non-scientific ways of magic and superstition. There are many simularities with our world (advertising, nazis, big cities of steel and concrete etc).

Yeah, but magic does exist in Roland's world. That one of the main things that makes me look at his world's as another world.
Think of Rhea and Walter. Not to mention the bag Roland owns and he can pull out anything from it and Roland's granddads fought with dragons. And their habits are very different too. The magical balls... and the beams. I think I could go on and on.
Of course there are many similarities, too.

[Chap]

Yeah, but magic does exist in Roland's world. That one of the main things that makes me look at his world's as another world.
Think of Rhea and Walter. Not to mention the bag Roland owns and he can pull out anything from it and Roland's granddads fought with dragons. And their habits are very different too. The magical balls... and the beams. I think I could go on and on.
Of course there are many similarities, too.

Magic existed in our world before as well, but now it's called science. Maybe the magic of Rolands world is simply something science brought up before the world moved on? (the nuclear war they hint at some places)
I'm not saying there is no real magic in his world, but we also have to remember that our own world was very much like Rolands, centuries ago.
And maybe a world that has lost it's insane focus on science and technology can "rediscover" the more natural forces that exists around us?
At least I think they exist :thumbsup:



also: post #100!

[Letti]

Science and magic aren't the same to me. Moreover they are the opposite of each other.

[Chap]

I'm not saying they are the same, but a lot of what was called magic before, can easily be explained by science now. It's not easy to see now that we know "everything", simpler times had simpler answers to explain the unknown.

[Kes]

well it kind of IS a futuristic world story IMO. because Rolands world, before it "moved on" was very much like our own. So even if it isn't about this world - it's maybe about earth twinner? :thumbsup:

I see Roland's world (before the moving on) quite different from ours.

Really?
The following may contain spoilers for those who haven't read the whole series

I saw Rolands world (specifically the "Gilead when", but also later) as a post-apocalyptic earth, simular to what ours may/will be in the future. Technology is still there, but noone knows exactly how it works, and none can build any new machines. The result of the death of technology is, in the book, that people turn back to the more natural and non-scientific ways of magic and superstition. There are many simularities with our world (advertising, nazis, big cities of steel and concrete etc).


I think that Rolands word IS our world and is our world in a very very far off future where choices are being made that determine how Roland ends up.

Think about it...what if IBM, North Central Positronics, etc DO create the world that is the ancient past of Roland's...it's OUR beginnings that spawn Andy, Blaine, etc. (In fact I think Eddie refers once to a recorded message voice as an ancient ancestor of Blaine the mono). That being the case...the defeat of Sombra et al by the Tet Corporations has even further flung implications doesn't it? The book doesn't ever specifically say...but it's pretty clear to me that the "Ancient Old Ones" are us now or in a few years and it's our abandonment of magick for technology that sets in motion what becomes Roland's world.

[Kes]

Science and magic aren't the same to me. Moreover they are the opposite of each other.

I would have to disagree.

In my opinion, while not exactly the same, they are very close relatives. What we once called "Witchcraft" we now call "Science" even in our own world.

There are very specific "magickal" principles that I could now define for you using what little we know of quantum physics.

I would suggest that the problem is in "intent". Magick has a very different intent, usually, than science. And it's this lacking of "spirit" that caused Roland's world to "lose the plot" for want of another phrase.

[Chap]

that's exactly what I'm thinking Kes, well put :)
either it IS our world, or it's a twin, imo.

[Kes]

Might I also add that there is still real magick in our world too.


You just have to know where to look for it...

[Letti]

Science and magic aren't the same to me. Moreover they are the opposite of each other.

I would have to disagree.

In my opinion, while not exactly the same, they are very close relatives. What we once called "Witchcraft" we now call "Science" even in our own world.

There are very specific "magickal" principles that I could now define for you using what little we know of quantum physics.

I would suggest that the problem is in "intent". Magick has a very different intent, usually, than science. And it's this lacking of "spirit" that caused Roland's world to "lose the plot" for want of another phrase.

I know that we all mean different things by the same words (and these days words are getting more and more flexible) but magic is the thing you cannot explain with science.
If you can levitate things just with your will = magic
If you heal someone with medicine = science
Now we can say that if someone doesn't know anything about medicines they can think doctors are magicians but why? Because they have no explanation. We get to the same definition.
So I don't say the line between them is thick but it's there, no question.

Roland's world was falling apart because the Great Old Ones had tried to replace magic with science but they failed. Because they are not the same. Robots are not spells... Even in Roland's world they are very different things.

[Letti]

Might I also add that there is still real magick in our world too.


You just have to know where to look for it...

I don't doubt it but it's not as much part of our culture as it's in Roland's world.

[Chap]

I know that we all mean different things by the same words (and these days words are getting more and more flexible) but magic is the thing you cannot explain with science.
If you can levitate things just with your will = magic
If you heal someone with medicine = science
Now we can say that if someone doesn't know anything about medicines they can think doctors are magicians but why? Because they have no explanation. We get to the same definition.
So I don't say the line between them is thick but it's there, no question.

Roland's world was falling apart because the Great Old Ones had tried to replace magic with science but they failed. Because they are not the same. Robots are not spells... Even in Roland's world they are very different things.

Maybe we will be able to explain "levitating things with your will" in years to come, and then replicating it with scientific methods. Healing with medicine was considered magic before as well, that's why shamans (who took drugs to get in trance) had so much power in their tribes. the only difference between what we call science and what older generations called magic may be that we have more knowledge, and therefore give it a different name.
Unexplained (no knowledge) = magic
explained (knowledge) = science

And a comment to the first line in the spoiler tag:
how do we know we're not in the middle of doing the exact same thing right now? :)

[Letti]

I know that we all mean different things by the same words (and these days words are getting more and more flexible) but magic is the thing you cannot explain with science.
If you can levitate things just with your will = magic
If you heal someone with medicine = science
Now we can say that if someone doesn't know anything about medicines they can think doctors are magicians but why? Because they have no explanation. We get to the same definition.
So I don't say the line between them is thick but it's there, no question.

Roland's world was falling apart because the Great Old Ones had tried to replace magic with science but they failed. Because they are not the same. Robots are not spells... Even in Roland's world they are very different things.

1. Maybe we will be able to explain "levitating things with your will" in years to come, and then replicating it with scientific methods. Healing with medicine was considered magic before as well, that's why shamans (who took drugs to get in trance) had so much power in their tribes. the only difference between what we call science and what older generations called magic may be that we have more knowledge, and therefore give it a different name.
Unexplained (no knowledge) = magic
explained (knowledge) = science

And a comment to the first line in the spoiler tag:
2. how do we know we're not in the middle of doing the exact same thing right now? :)

1. I feel we agree on many things but for my part I believe there is real magic. It exists. Without any science. And I see this phenomenon in Roland's world much more. That's why I see the two worlds so different (or more exactly it's one of the main reasons). In my mind they aren't the same Earth they are close to each other but definitely not the same.
Just my two cents of course. :)

2. I think this question deserves a thread. I have been thinking about it for awhile, too.

[Kes]

As a practitioner of Magick and a believer in Science I can tell you that while not the "same" they are more alike than not.

Here is my favorite quote that comes the closest to explaining what I mean:

"Science is the process of collecting and organizing facts to reach an understanding of their significance.
Magic is the process of using an understanding of the significance of things to reach a harmony of facts and occurrences."

"Mahogany Trinrose" by Jacqueline Lichtenberg


"Twinners" of a sort, if you will. Perhaps the mistake the Old Ones made was making either Magick or Science equal "Gan"?

Of course I'm also in agreement with the delightful old whoremaster Aleister Crowley when he said:

It sometimes strikes me that the whole of science is a piece of impudence; that nature can afford to ignore our impertinent interference. If our monkey mischief should ever reach the point of blowing up the earth by decomposing an atom, and even annihilated the sun himself, I cannot really suppose that the universe would turn a hair.

[Chap]

1. I feel we agree on many things but for my part I believe there is real magic. It exists. Without any science. And I see this phenomenon in Roland's world much more. That's why I see the two worlds so different (or more exactly it's one of the main reasons). In my mind they aren't the same Earth they are close to each other but definitely not the same.
Just my two cents of course. :)

2. I think this question deserves a thread. I have been thinking about it for awhile, too.

Yep, I do think we agree and disagree at the same time. I also believe there is "real magic", but we can't say that said magic will not explained scientifically in the future.
As a fan of "The Legend of the Ice People", I've grown up reading about magic, witches, witchmasters, superstition, folklore etc, so it's very close to home for me :)

[Brainslinger]

I'm kind of in between.
If science explains the world, and magic is a natural part of the world then isn't there a scientific basis? Even if we don't know how it works?

On the other hand, in the Dark Tower cycle, the two are separate.

As for whether or not Roland's world is a future version of our own, I wondered about this too when I started. I think the later books provide an answer, but for the sake of those of you who haven't read them yet, but still clicked this spoiler, I'll let you open that door for yourself.