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obscurejude
03-27-2008, 09:02 AM
What is the Keystone World, and why is it significant? There's a passing comment that is bothersome to me in DT VII, "this is the only world which anything matters, at least in some significant way" I guess its just more reader naivete, but this is really bothering me. Keystone World represents the difference between Co-Op City (Eddie's where) and Brooklyn (the "real one"). This is empirical evidence (at least within the tale) and suggests that it isn't just a case of reader naivete in regards to time only moving one way. Clear disparity between realities in my opinion.

Okay, your thoughts.

Daghain
03-27-2008, 09:11 AM
I tend to take things at fact value, so when Roland says in Keystone World time only runs one way and death is for keeps, I tend to believe him.

Jean
03-27-2008, 09:47 AM
I tend not to believe any Roland's ideas at all. His is such a peculiar jumble of lore, myths, quotations, long-lost books and teachings, read only partly, or orally retold, old superstitions handed down from generation to generation, and all that in a world that is moving on and, thus, obliterating old meanings and mising up contexts... a world when information can't be saved, at that - books are scarce and other carriers nonexistent... he is not a liar like Walter (though sometimes he is), but he is definitely not a reliable source of knowledge.

Wuducynn
03-27-2008, 09:59 AM
I tend to take things at fact value, so when Roland says in Keystone World time only runs one way and death is for keeps, I tend to believe him.

So you believed him when he believed they were beyond ka?

jayson
03-27-2008, 10:05 AM
I tend not to believe any Roland's ideas at all. His is such a peculiar jumble of lore, myths, quotations, long-lost books and teachings, read only partly, or orally retold, old superstitions handed down from generation to generation, and all that in a world that is moving on and, thus, obliterating old meanings and mising up contexts... a world when information can't be saved, at that - books are scarce and other carriers nonexistent... he is not a liar like Walter (though sometimes he is), but he is definitely not a reliable source of knowledge.

i'm with you on this one. roland is a lot of things, but an authority on metaphysics he is not. he and the tet are capable of fine speculation based on what they experience, but we should not confuse that with the actual rules of the way the universe works. i don't recall any authority on any specific rules of keystone world other than this character-driven speculation.

Wuducynn
03-27-2008, 10:09 AM
i'm with you on this one. roland is a lot of things, but an authority on metaphysics he is not. he and the tet are capable of fine speculation based on what they experience, but we should not confuse that with the actual rules of the way the universe works. i don't recall any authority on any specific rules of keystone world other than this character-driven speculation.

This is exactly how I feel.

obscurejude
03-27-2008, 11:24 AM
Okay folks, points (all good) taken. But what about the fact that Eddie's home is not the real Brooklyn. What I meant by empirical proof is simply tangible evidences that suggest significance to the Keystone world. This is beyond Roland and his unreliability. What about this?

MonteGss
03-27-2008, 02:44 PM
The only thing I thought that made the Keystone World special was that Stephen King lives there. All the other worlds are the ones he created. As far as Jake existing in the Keystone World, that is possible, but Jake lives in other worlds because King created him in those worlds. So, it is entirely possible to "die" in the Keystone World yet still "come back." :)

obscurejude
03-27-2008, 02:50 PM
Monte, I'm inclined to agree except for the fact that King didn't create all of the multiverse did he? If there is an infinitude existing on a blade of purple grass, then might it be possible to presume that King didn't create all of them. If it was Gan, then the Keystone World is significant for other reasons. DT VII also mentions that Roland's world is a twinner of Keystone as well. If thats the case, then King couldn't have created it because it existed millenia before the Keystone World which hasn't "moved on" yet.

MonteGss
03-27-2008, 02:54 PM
I guess I don't see why King couldn't have created them simply because "they existed for a milenia." I understand your argument but those worlds existing for however long only exist because that is how King created and wrote them. Also, I suppose it may not only be King that created the multiverse, but previous writer's of Gan's/Roland's tale.

Also, Mid-World and Keystone are Twins of each other, not Twinners. :)

Good thread, hopefully, it can help me sort out my own beliefs. :thumbsup:

obscurejude
03-27-2008, 03:00 PM
Twins, not Twinners, got it. Thank you sir. Long day.

What I was suggesting is that Mid-World wasn't created by King bc King didn't exist until he was born in the Keystone World. If Mid-World is real in the same way that Keystone is, then how could King have created it? The prim, its recession, the Old ones etc.. these "really" happened and aren't false like Co-Op City. Do you see what I'm saying? I'm not sure how to word it.

MonteGss
03-27-2008, 03:40 PM
Twins, not Twinners, got it. Thank you sir. Long day.

What I was suggesting is that Mid-World wasn't created by King bc King didn't exist until he was born in the Keystone World. If Mid-World is real in the same way that Keystone is, then how could King have created it? The prim, its recession, the Old ones etc.. these "really" happened and aren't false like Co-Op City. Do you see what I'm saying? I'm not sure how to word it.

Ohhhh, I get you. Well, I personally believe that Keystone and Mid-World can still be Twins but yet Mid-World is on a different level of the Tower..meaning King created it. The only world King didn't create is the Keystone World and everything else is "different" because it comes from him, including Mid-World. I don't think this fact negates those two worlds being Twins. I hope that makes sense. :)

obscurejude
03-27-2008, 03:55 PM
So, what does the two worlds being Twins mean? Mid World comes chronologically before, I think. I took Twin to mean they were created by the same thing.

MonteGss
03-27-2008, 04:08 PM
For me, "twins" in the Dark Tower is only a way to illustrate similarities between two things. *shrugs* :)

obscurejude
03-27-2008, 04:10 PM
How convenient Monte. :) Am I the only one in left field here?

obscurejude
03-27-2008, 04:14 PM
Monte, if King didn't create Keystone, but somehow facilitated it, Do you think its possible that the author of Arthurian tales did the same for Mid World? I'm having a hard time believing that King created Mid World. I mean isn't Roland unique because he doesn't have a twin (or so the consensus seems to be). Seems that if he was created by King, he would have a twin.

MonteGss
03-27-2008, 04:21 PM
Monte, if King didn't create Keystone, but somehow facilitated it, Do you think its possible that the author of Arthurian tales did the same for Mid World? I'm having a hard time believing that King created Mid World. I mean isn't Roland unique because he doesn't have a twin (or so the consensus seems to be). Seems that if he was created by King, he would have a twin.

Yes, it is very possible.
Hmm, perhaps King only created the other levels of "Earth" and not Mid-World. Nice point. That would indeed explain Roland's lack of a twin.
Interesting. This makes me want to revisit my Twins & Twinners thread....:D

obscurejude
03-27-2008, 04:22 PM
*follows Monte*

Childe 007
03-27-2008, 05:08 PM
What is the Keystone World, and why is it significant? There's a passing comment that is bothersome to me in DT VII, "this is the only world which anything matters, at least in some significant way" I guess its just more reader naivete, but this is really bothering me. Keystone World represents the difference between Co-Op City (Eddie's where) and Brooklyn (the "real one"). This is empirical evidence (at least within the tale) and suggests that it isn't just a case of reader naivete in regards to time only moving one way. Clear disparity between realities in my opinion.

Okay, your thoughts.

Though not literally the "real" world - this is the one where Stephen King the character/ writer lives. The one where Tet Corp. has built it's Black Tower in New York and is in constant corporate warfare with Sombra and North Central Positronics. This is The Keystone world - once you've been and done there are no do overs.

MonteGss
03-27-2008, 05:09 PM
Except for Jake, of course. ;)

obscurejude
03-27-2008, 05:12 PM
Childe 007, I think you should probably read the other posts. This much has been established...

Childe 007
03-27-2008, 05:23 PM
Except for Jake, of course. ;)

You think Jake got a Do Over?

obscurejude
03-27-2008, 05:24 PM
Again, its always helpful to read what has already been written. I mean, seriously dude.

MonteGss
03-27-2008, 05:29 PM
So jude, you think Mid-World was the "first" world, the basepoint of the Tower? And the Rose with Keystone Earth followed it? Or did that exist/begin at the same time?

obscurejude
03-27-2008, 05:32 PM
I think so, yes. I often view Roland's quest in terms of saving Keystone from the fate of Mid-World. I think that explains the time difference, why Mid World is so far ahead. I also read an interview King gave back in 84 when he said that the Dark Tower series was very concerned with some of the dangers of technology.

MonteGss
03-27-2008, 05:36 PM
So, saving the Tower not only halts/slows the decline of Mid-World but it also prevents/slows the decay of Keystone World. Hmm, again I say interesting.

obscurejude
03-27-2008, 05:41 PM
What initially gave me this impression is the first time that Roland sees Eddie's world (I guess it isn't Key Stone, but it serves the point). Several times on the way to Balazzar's in DT 2, Roland goes on and on in Eddie's head about how his (Eddie's) world hasn't moved on. Paper abounds, medicine abounds, buildings touch the sky etc... I re read it late last year, and I still feel the same way.

obscurejude
03-28-2008, 05:52 PM
I'm bumping my own thread, not because I'm egomaniacal, but bc I don't want Jean and Jayson to forget about it.

Jean
03-28-2008, 10:25 PM
I will not forget, but I may have to reread the later volumes first. I never paid enough attention to the ontology while reading (of all philosophy it has always presented the least interest to the bear)

jayson
03-29-2008, 07:12 AM
nor have i forgotten Ryan. i've been trying to wrap my head around it for awhile now. i have to admit the "Keystone" thing never meant more to me than just being the world King lives in. the whole notion of one world being as "twin" of the other is confusing and one i have yet to be able to really put my finger on what it means. bc of this thread i am attempting again to figure out what i think king means by all of this. more to follow hopefully...

obscurejude
03-29-2008, 07:20 AM
Take your time, dear friends, I just wanted to let you guys know that I was anxious to hear your wisdom.

MonteGss
03-29-2008, 07:39 AM
As am I. Fellow junkies unite! :)

obscurejude
03-29-2008, 07:40 AM
Aye Monte. You say true.

MonteGss
03-29-2008, 07:47 AM
So, here's a question for you jude (or anyone else, of course).
If Mid-World and the Keystone World are indeed special/different and we believe that the many levels of the Tower are tied to King by way of his other stories, how did the "other worlds than these" come to be before King? Or, is King adding to an already existing number of levels?
Do you take my meaning?

jayson
03-29-2008, 07:55 AM
If Mid-World and the Keystone World are indeed special/different and we believe that the many levels of the Tower are tied to King by way of his other stories, how did the "other worlds than these" come to be before King? Or, is King adding to an already existing number of levels?

Monte, that is the crux of what i keep struggling with. surely King can't have "created" all of the other worlds as he exists within a specific period in time. the whole Keystone thing never sits right with me however i look at it.

MonteGss
03-29-2008, 07:57 AM
I agree with you but I still question why he could not have created them, even though he existed in only one time period. If King writes about something that takes place before he exists, doesn't that make it exist...before himself?

Wuducynn
03-29-2008, 08:03 AM
So, here's a question for you jude (or anyone else, of course).
If Mid-World and the Keystone World are indeed special/different and we believe that the many levels of the Tower are tied to King by way of his other stories


I don't believe this. The worlds were created by Gan, I don't think they are tied together by way of King's stories, they are tied together by the Beams. King's role is of a facilitator or singer of Gan's song. Now Gan's song maybe is making new worlds...

MonteGss
03-29-2008, 08:08 AM
So, here's a question for you jude (or anyone else, of course).
If Mid-World and the Keystone World are indeed special/different and we believe that the many levels of the Tower are tied to King by way of his other stories


I don't believe this. The worlds were created by Gan, I don't think they are tied together by way of King's stories, they are tied together by the Beams. King's role is of a facilitator or singer of Gan's song. Now Gan's song maybe is making new worlds...

Ok, then how can we explain the different levels of, New York, for example. King writes something one way, that isn't correct or that is different (ie, Eddie's hometown) and this world/level exists. Right? Or do you think that Gan already created those different New Yorks where little things may be different?

I always saw it that King wrote about Takuro Spirits and Nozzala existing in one or more of his stories and those became/were different levels of Earth/New York. I guess I believe Gan created "the worlds" in a sense but not creating all of the different levels/different particularties of the Tower. Damn good point though, CK.

Brice
03-29-2008, 08:24 AM
Stephen King wrote Gan into creation so Gan could create all those worlds before King was created. :lol:

Wuducynn
03-29-2008, 08:29 AM
Ok, then how can we explain the different levels of, New York, for example. King writes something one way, that isn't correct or that is different (ie, Eddie's hometown) and this world/level exists. Right? Or do you think that Gan already created those different New Yorks where little things may be different?
I always saw it that King wrote about Takuro Spirits and Nozzala existing in one or more of his stories and those became/were different levels of Earth/New York. I guess I believe Gan created "the worlds" in a sense but not creating all of the different levels/different particularties of the Tower. Damn good point though, CK.

How I see it is Gan created all the worlds within himself...remember the multiverse IS the Dark Tower too, and so the multi-verse is Gan. Of course there is the Outer Dark, the worlds of darkness and Discordia outside Gan. It seems like Gan has a prophet every so often who is a facilitator of its song, who also creates more worlds, maybe those various levels of America's for instance. I think both can be happening. For instance there seems to various levels of All-World, for example the All-World of The Eye of the Dragon is slightly different than the one of Roland's where.

MonteGss
03-29-2008, 08:52 AM
Oh, I like that line of thinking, CK. :thumbsup:

jayson
03-30-2008, 05:11 AM
How I see it is Gan created all the worlds within himself...remember the multiverse IS the Dark Tower too, and so the multi-verse is Gan. Of course there is the Outer Dark, the worlds of darkness and Discordia outside Gan. It seems like Gan has a prophet every so often who is a facilitator of its song, who also creates more worlds, maybe those various levels of America's for instance. I think both can be happening. For instance there seems to various levels of All-World, for example the All-World of The Eye of the Dragon is slightly different than the one of Roland's where.

this line of thinking is making it easier for me to understand.

Unfound One
04-10-2008, 02:40 AM
How I see it is Gan created all the worlds within himself...remember the multiverse IS the Dark Tower too, and so the multi-verse is Gan. Of course there is the Outer Dark, the worlds of darkness and Discordia outside Gan. It seems like Gan has a prophet every so often who is a facilitator of its song, who also creates more worlds, maybe those various levels of America's for instance. I think both can be happening. For instance there seems to various levels of All-World, for example the All-World of The Eye of the Dragon is slightly different than the one of Roland's where.

When Roland puts Sai King into a trance at his home:

"Roland raised his mutilated right hand. 'When you do, you'll start with how I lost my fingers. Do you remember?'
'Lobstosities,' King said. 'Bit them off.'
'And how do you know that?'
King smiled a little and made a gentle wissshhhing sound. 'The wind blows,' said he.
'Gan bore the world and moved on," Roland replied. 'Is that what you mean to say?'
'Aye, and the world would have fallen into the abyss if not for the great turtle. Instead of falling, it landed on his back.'"

So...
Gan created everything originally, Sai King says.
But Roland and the tet need Sai King to write the rest of the story.
Is this to say that if Sai King doesn't record as this comes to him, it never comes to be? Even though it's already been created by Gan?

Or has it?

"Gan bore the world."
Like a mother bears her child?
Or like a turtle bears a weight upon it's back?

The more I look at it I'm almost lead to believe the latter. The world was already created, by Sai King or whomever, and Gan just played a supporting role. In fact, the world would have "fallen into the abyss" if not for the great turtle who saved the (already created?) world from falling.

Is this making any sense?
Thoughts?


EDIT: Also, I realize this really has nothing to do with the Keystone World. Say sorry - it just seemed like where the thread was headed... Or should I copy/paste it to the trance thread All_Hail started?

obscurejude
04-10-2008, 04:14 AM
You're fine SJ, its very related. I just read the part where Jake dies in DT 7 a couple of days ago and had similar thoughts running through my head. Why does King have to live? I keep asking myself that and I'm finding it harder and harder to answer. If he is merely a facilitator, then why does Jake have to die? Why can't someone else write out Gan's song?

I think the turtle bearing the world is very astute SJ. Gan is presented as creator, but not the sustainer. Ka is presented (at least to me) as a separate entity in the series, and not necessarily a constituent of Gan. They almost seem at odds.

I just woke up, so I'm not going to delve into this further right now. But Gan certainly needs a little help to get shit done in the multiverse.

Brice
04-10-2008, 04:16 AM
Why does King have to live?

He has more tales to tell. :thumbsup:

obscurejude
04-10-2008, 04:23 AM
Why does King have to live?

He has more tales to tell. :thumbsup:

Thanks Brice, that solved everything. :rolleyes:

Brice
04-10-2008, 04:25 AM
I know! I try to help where I can. :D

Wuducynn
04-10-2008, 05:50 AM
How I see it is Gan created all the worlds within himself...remember the multiverse IS the Dark Tower too, and so the multi-verse is Gan. Of course there is the Outer Dark, the worlds of darkness and Discordia outside Gan. It seems like Gan has a prophet every so often who is a facilitator of its song, who also creates more worlds, maybe those various levels of America's for instance. I think both can be happening. For instance there seems to various levels of All-World, for example the All-World of The Eye of the Dragon is slightly different than the one of Roland's where.

When Roland puts Sai King into a trance at his home:

"Roland raised his mutilated right hand. 'When you do, you'll start with how I lost my fingers. Do you remember?'
'Lobstosities,' King said. 'Bit them off.'
'And how do you know that?'
King smiled a little and made a gentle wissshhhing sound. 'The wind blows,' said he.
'Gan bore the world and moved on," Roland replied. 'Is that what you mean to say?'
'Aye, and the world would have fallen into the abyss if not for the great turtle. Instead of falling, it landed on his back.'"

So...
Gan created everything originally, Sai King says.
But Roland and the tet need Sai King to write the rest of the story.
Is this to say that if Sai King doesn't record as this comes to him, it never comes to be? Even though it's already been created by Gan?


Right, the force of Gan is passing through SK, he is the conduit for Gan's song..hence "kas-ka Gan" or "Singer of Gan's Song" or "Prophet of Gan"



Or has it?

"Gan bore the world."
Like a mother bears her child?
Or like a turtle bears a weight upon it's back?

The more I look at it I'm almost lead to believe the latter. The world was already created, by Said King or whomever, and Gan just played a supporting role. In fact, the world would have "fallen into the abyss" if not for the great turtle who saved the (already created?) world from falling.

How would SK have created the multiverse when he only lived within period of time within it? Gan created the multiverse out of the Prim or "primal chaos" and every generation there is a new kas-ka Gan to sing Gan's song or to be the funnel for His water. Now how or why Gan needs a kas-ka is probably a good subject for another thread.

obscurejude
04-10-2008, 05:55 AM
Then why does King have to live? Its relative to this thread IMO. Why not just pick another? I.e Roland's life seems contingent upon King's (the shared hip pain and headaches), but Mid-World was not created by King- or so we have seemed to have decided.

Wuducynn
04-10-2008, 06:04 AM
Then why does King have to live? Its relative to this thread IMO. Why not just pick another? I.e Roland's life seems contingent upon King's (the shared hip pain and headaches), but Mid-World was not created by King- or so we have seemed to have decided.

I don't understand why Gan needs a kas-ka. Its something to think about.

obscurejude
04-10-2008, 06:06 AM
I suppose it is.:orely:

MonteGss
04-10-2008, 03:07 PM
I don't know how to respond to this discussion at the moment.
:lol:



Let's see, King is needed, of that much I am sure. Why? Fuck if I know. :D

I personally am not entirely convinced King didn't create Mid-World. I still don't understand why it is not possible for King to have created/expanded the multiverse, even though he lives in only a small part/time of it. Isn't the act of writing it, creating it? So, really, it doesn't matter at all when it is written, only that it is. He can write about a parallel New York in the 1890s, which is before his time, and that when is created....isn't it?

Damn I like this thread! A true junkie paradise. :D

Unfound One
04-10-2008, 05:16 PM
I personally am not entirely convinced King didn't create Mid-World. I still don't understand why it is not possible for King to have created/expanded the multiverse, even though he lives in only a small part/time of it. Isn't the act of writing it, creating it? So, really, it doesn't matter at all when it is written, only that it is. He can write about a parallel New York in the 1890s, which is before his time, and that when is created....isn't it?

Damn I like this thread! A true junkie paradise. :D

This IS a good thread :thumbsup:

If I've read this thread correctly, I think that's the debate, Monte.
If the act of his writing created everything or if Gan predestined things, so to speak.
And IF Gan predestined things, will they still happen if SK doesn't translate them to paper?
I'm really not sure either way.

And then we're back to: does Gan need a kas-ka?
Damn.

obscurejude
04-10-2008, 06:28 PM
Damn is right.

Wuducynn
04-10-2008, 07:13 PM
And then we're back to: does Gan need a kas-ka?


Need, or want...and if so, why?

Unfound One
04-11-2008, 02:00 AM
Sigh.
I wish I knew for sure.
I've got more quotes but I'm too tired to type them out right now.
Sometime tomorrow...

Darkthoughts
04-11-2008, 02:17 AM
Ok, seeing as I'm jumping in halfway through a discussion - I'll just go back to the beginning and try and catch up.


So, what does the two worlds being Twins mean? Mid World comes chronologically before, I think. I took Twin to mean they were created by the same thing.
This is Monte's favourite topic :D I don't know if you went to his Twins/Twinners thread (I'm working my way down the board) but as you rightly stated above Twinners need essentially to be created at the same time (albeit in different wheres), this is cemented by Wolf telling Jack that Twinners are "litters" of people.
Twin beings/places can be in different wheres and whens, so I'd say the same point of origin isn't necessarily a factor. Especially if you look at this in terms of authors and worlds of their creation. Some authors purposely create a world that is a twin of some previous authors creation (usually as a hommage), some do it inadvertantly...which leads me on to this...


I guess I believe Gan created "the worlds" in a sense but not creating all of the different levels/different particularties of the Tower.


How I see it is Gan created all the worlds within himself...remember the multiverse IS the Dark Tower too, and so the multi-verse is Gan. Of course there is the Outer Dark, the worlds of darkness and Discordia outside Gan. It seems like Gan has a prophet every so often who is a facilitator of its song, who also creates more worlds
I think Keystone World is important, not just because its where King comes from, but its the level of the Tower where all our authors exist.
CK, I love how you phrased the lines I bolded in your quote. If you look at authors as Gan's prophets, then its almost as if Keystone World is Gan's "forspecial" drawer, his keepsake box where he keeps all his story spinners together to ensure his song is being eternally sung.

My understanding of it combines Monte and CK's views - that Gan created the Multiverse (within the Tower) but that it was in part an empty shell - but one with infinite potential that the authors fill with their infinite worlds.

Unfound One
04-11-2008, 02:41 AM
I think Keystone World is important, not just because its where King comes from, but its the level of the Tower where all our authors exist.
CK, I love how you phrased the lines I bolded in your quote. If you look at authors as Gan's prophets, then its almost as if Keystone World is Gan's "forspecial" drawer, his keepsake box where he keeps all his story spinners together to ensure his song is being eternally sung.
My understanding of it combines Monte and CK's views - that Gan created the Multiverse (within the Tower) but that it was in part an empty shell - but one with infinite potential that the authors fill with their infinite worlds.

Well said, and this helps me to understand things a bit better.
However, I'm still confused about the kas-ka.

Why does all of this information seem to flow through and out of Sai King if it's his own creation? If it was his own creation, I could see where the empty shell theory comes in, but I'm not sure it is.
He says himself that he's added some of his own opinions, but it definitely seems that it's not his original material. If Gan wants to make sure his song is being eternally sung, it's his original material, right?
The kas-ka(s) are just there to interpret and record it. (and make it happen? back to that again...)

Maybe Gan didn't create everything... Maybe we need to consider ka in this whole equation. I like what Ryan said earlier, that ka is unrelated to Gan. Maybe ka is the force that created everything, or, since ka is a wheel and a wheel always turns, maybe everything has always existed and nothing created it. Like steady-state theory in physics. Blah, I feel like I'm talking religion or science now and I'm getting waaaaay off topic. I'm gonna stop.

And yet again, I still have questions. :rolleyes:

Darkthoughts
04-11-2008, 02:49 AM
I would say that SK might feel, for the purpose of the story, that he has embellished the message he's been given (Gan's song) with his own ideas, thus making it his creation...but thats partly an author's ego talking. I like the saying "theres no such thing as an original idea" - in fiction it applies very well to the concept that there were 6 original stories at the beginning of time, and that every story that exists, has its origins in the original six.

I mean, we know that The dark Tower is not infact SK's concept - it was Robert Browning's...who's to say that Browning's poem wasn't influenced by another writer, etc, etc.

I think Gan indulges his story tellers by letting them assume they have created more than they did, that much of the Tower existed prior to their contribution - but massaging their ego's is a (small) price Gan is willing to pay for the greater good of the Tower.

Wuducynn
05-08-2008, 08:15 PM
I think Gan indulges his story tellers by letting them assume they have created more than they did, that much of the Tower existed prior to their contribution - but massaging their ego's is a (small) price Gan is willing to pay for the greater good of the Tower.

I think his kas-ka Gan's at some deep level know, like King did as evidenced in his trance, that they are not the true author but the teller of Gan's tale or the Singer of Gan's song if you'd prefer.

sasquatch012
10-30-2008, 07:26 PM
roland's world is a keystone world an there is no going back in time right?

so am i stupid for thinking that this one law completely negates the book's ending? and apologies if this has been covered elsewhere..

LadyHitchhiker
10-30-2008, 07:43 PM
Wow! Great post! Welcome to tdt.com!

I hope someone with a more in depth understanding of time travel will be in here promptly to come up with theories for answers to your questions!!! in the meantime enjoy the site!

Sam
10-30-2008, 08:31 PM
The Tower IS the Keystone and can make it's own rules.

Letti
10-30-2008, 09:57 PM
It has never been said that Roland's world is the Keystone world.
The world where Stehpen King lives, that's the Keystone world.

Welcome to the site, sai. :rose:

Wuducynn
10-30-2008, 10:24 PM
There is a thread already made for chat about this topic - http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=2481&highlight=Keystone

Letti, could you merge this with that one?

Letti
10-30-2008, 10:28 PM
Thank you for finding it, Matthew.
Yeah, I'll merge the threads soon.

razz
10-31-2008, 02:17 AM
basically, i think that once the Tower has something up it's sleeve, all bets are off.

Bev Vincent
10-31-2008, 03:16 AM
I don't think Roland went back in time. He advanced to a different level of the Tower (in an Insomnia sense). He is transported both to a new time and a new place. He's not the same person we met on page one of The Gunslinger. Roland 2.0 (or 19.0 or 119.0).

sarah
10-31-2008, 07:09 AM
Yes, I agree Bev. Thanks for posting that. I think Roland is always advancing forward and never backward.

Matt
10-31-2008, 07:49 AM
I totally agree with that too. Was never real fond of the "reset time" idea.

Bev Vincent
10-31-2008, 09:52 AM
People talk about a "loop," but I prefer to describe it as an upward spiral, like a helix.

alinda
10-31-2008, 09:53 AM
That said, please remember to set your clocks back Sat. Nov 1 before you go to bed
Thank you ......:ninja:

LadyHitchhiker
11-08-2008, 03:31 PM
:wtf:

I love you Linda...

Ves'Ka Gan
11-13-2008, 05:29 PM
People talk about a "loop," but I prefer to describe it as an upward spiral, like a helix.

Maybe I have thought of it this way but not in these words--but Bev--for a second there--you blew my mind!

[ epiphany ]OF COURSE ITS A SPIRAL & NOT A LOOP! Duh![ /epiphany ]

Jean
11-14-2008, 12:04 AM
::coughs::

just for the sake of equity... in a conversation with Matt and AllHail, this here bear introduced the concept of spiral as long ago as in August of 2008 (in this thread (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=625), from post #22 down; also at .net long before that); the notion being so thoroughly Hegelian it could hardly have escaped someone's notice sooner or later.

Bev Vincent
11-14-2008, 03:19 AM
Not to mention the fact that it parallels the staircase inside the tower, which is also spiral.

Jean
11-14-2008, 05:57 AM
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_thumb.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_thumb.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_thumb.gif

(That is, in fact, something I would have never noticed - bears don't pay much attention to descriptions)

Letti
11-14-2008, 11:26 PM
Okay. I merge this thread with our other Keystone thread. I hope you don't mind it much. See you all there. :rose:

Galdaran
12-07-2009, 07:48 PM
I think Mid-World is important because is where the embodiment of Gan are. And the Keystone world is where the "voice" of Gan lives, maintain and creates another worlds. That could explain why Roland's World and Keystone World are twins. They have same importance, and are beyond the "normal worlds".
Cloto and Laquesis says the short-time beings (we) lives in the two first floors of the Tower. Maybe Roland's World it's in the first floor, and the Keystone World is in the top of the second, creating the solid base of the Dark Tower.

About Kas-ka Gan:
I believe that the voice of Gan changes of host when the last one dies, and this host have to belong to The Purpose, and that's why the ka-tet have to protect Stephen King, to not let the random cut his "Ballon string". May that "Living Voice" only exists in the Keystone World, never in another worlds, that would make it so special.

pathoftheturtle
04-13-2010, 09:37 AM
roland's world is a keystone world an there is no going back in time right?

so am i stupid for thinking that this one law completely negates the book's ending? and apologies if this has been covered elsewhere..

I don't think Roland went back in time. He advanced to a different level of the Tower (in an Insomnia sense). He is transported both to a new time and a new place. He's not the same person we met on page one of The Gunslinger. Roland 2.0 (or 19.0 or 119.0).King had put himself into a double-bind, though: either Roland went back in time within the Tower Keystone world, proving that the past can be changed, or he went to a new place / different level, proving that there is more than one Tower.

boq
04-20-2010, 03:21 PM
No, surely there's only The Dark Tower. One. How does King describe it?... the axle/pivot of all time/space/size.
It's represented in different worlds in different ways (a rose for example) but is not accessible from all worlds.

pathoftheturtle
04-21-2010, 09:32 AM
There's a basic paradox in the idea of a multiverse, or even the concept of the universe, or any grouping of units regarded as a singular unit unto itself. (Many as one, or possibly one from many.) Many implications in that regarding ontological issues, certainly as relates to TDT and various related issues of its mythos.

As far as the concept goes, though, it's perfectly sensible to equate the Tower with higher oneness. What I was talking about was just the smaller claim, made in DT7, that there is only one world in which that Tower appears as (i.e. is represented, to use your term) an actual tower.

Still, inevitably, it all will come back to how we define "a world" or distinguish many worlds, and all worlds, and reality as a fundamental concept.

Pedro97
04-28-2011, 04:39 PM
What is the Keystone World, and why is it significant? There's a passing comment that is bothersome to me in DT VII, "this is the only world which anything matters, at least in some significant way" I guess its just more reader naivete, but this is really bothering me. Keystone World represents the difference between Co-Op City (Eddie's where) and Brooklyn (the "real one"). This is empirical evidence (at least within the tale) and suggests that it isn't just a case of reader naivete in regards to time only moving one way. Clear disparity between realities in my opinion.

Okay, your thoughts.

Eddie, Jake and Susannah come from a similar version of our Earth, since Eddie mentions the shining movie in DTII. And this is where the they confront Andolini for the first time.
Keystone Earth is another version of Earth with some differences, in this version King exists as a character but he is merely a person who canalizes the events of the Dark Tower series and parallel-earths and then writes them down.
Then there is another version of Earth, in which the majority of King's work takes place where Father Callahan comes from.

Slender
04-30-2011, 07:11 AM
Eddie, Jake and Susannah come from a similar version of our Earth, since Eddie mentions the shining movie in DTII. And this is where the they confront Andolini for the first time.
I'm not sure if Eddie's mention of The Shining as a film can be used to draw any definite conclusions. Gardener in The Tommyknockers also mentions the film – at one point he considers smashing through a door with an axe 'like Jack Nicholson in The Shining'. This has never really made sense to me – Pennywise makes a brief appearance in The Tommyknockers, meaning that it takes place in the same universe as IT, which features a brief appearance from Dick Hallorann, meaning that The Tommyknockers and The Shining take place within the same universe. Perhaps Danny Torrance grew up and wrote a book about what happened in the Overlook – possibly publishing it in novel form – and then sold the rights to a film producer or something? A shaky explanation, but it's the only way I can think of that the film could exist as a work of fiction within the universe of the book.

pathoftheturtle
04-30-2011, 08:37 AM
If you go to the Library of Congress and memorize the titles of all contemporary novels every few weeks, and that list does not contain anything more coincidental and surreal than you can possibly accept, (or no such thing that you notice) and it stays consistent, it doesn't waver like the contents of a dream, (or doesn't seem to relative to what your own mind can retain) then you might take that experience as a fairly good sign that you are not at all an imaginary character in someone else's novel. (Or at least, not by someone too wildly imaginative.)

Jean
10-12-2012, 07:37 AM
just registered here and wanna say hi you all.

cheers


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Merlin1958
10-12-2012, 09:01 PM
just registered here and wanna say hi you all.

cheers


It is remarkable, rather valuable message

You, two. Yes, you. You have 48 hours to prove you're not spammers.

Or else.

Go get 'em, Jean!!!

You're Bad-ass!!! LOL