Languages and Etiquette

[cozener]

At work my bosses have decreed that folks that are bi lingual can only speak Spanish to customers and not each other. Apparently, they consider speaking Spanish to eachother to be rude to those of us that do not speak Spanish. I, for one, don’t really get it. I figure that if someone is talking about me and they can’t say whatever they have to say to me directly then their opinion lacks conviction, therefore, doesn’t really matter to me. I don’t feel left out if people speak another language around me. If they were talking to me they’d speak English. I’m sure that if I moved to some other country I’d be more comfortable speaking English and it would be easy to lapse into it if I were surrounded by Brits, Aussies, Canadians, and other Americans just like I’m sure its easy for these folks to lapse into Spanish around Dominicans, Mexicans, Cubans, and Puerto Ricans.

[jayson]

I agre with you a hundred percent Cozener. At one point I worked in an office where nearly everyone else spoke both English and Spanish. I was not "offended" or even concerned when they would speak to each other in Spanish. I just figured that since for many of them it was their native language it was more natural bc it was the language in which they think. I was comfortable enough in my relations with people that if anyone had something to say to or about me they'd do it in a language I understood so I never thought twice about what they might be saying if I didn't know [I do speak a little bit of Spanish]

[Jean]

what I know for sure, however, that I would speak Russian (or any other language) in the presence of people who don't speak it no more than I would masturbate or pick my nose in their presence. It's not a matter of anyone getting hurt, it's just the question of personal culture, like cleanliness or decency.

I like the position of those who speak for language majority here, though: it's up to the majority to be sympathetic with the minorities' problems and tactful towards minorities themselves; but it's a matter of the minorities' decency - ultimately, honor, - not to trespass on that tactfulness.

[cozener]

Masturbating and picking your nose...now thats an interesting comparison. Not just between speaking a language around those that don't speak it and these two activities but between these two activities with one another. :lol:

[Jean]

I hope the audacity of the trope won't derive the thread from its course. (there was no comparison, by the way. I said I would do that no more than I would do this, it's an entirely different figure of speech)

[cozener]

Ah ok. I took it to mean that all of these things were in the same class. ;)

[Daghain]

I'll be the first (maybe only) dissenter here. I think it's the height of rudeness to stand around and speak in a language that you know someone else doesn't understand, and that is not the native language of that country. If you work in Germany, you speak German in the office. If you work in the US, you speak English. I think it is just basic politeness.

[Jean]

if you go back to my post, you might notice that it's exactly the point I was trying to make

[Daghain]

Well, my reading for comprehension is shit today. :)

I need to go to the doctor and get some "real" drugs for this cold. :(

[jayson]

Well, my reading for comprehension is shit today. :)

I need to go to the doctor and get some "real" drugs for this cold. :(

and you expect that to help your reading comprehension? :lol:

[Daghain]

No, but it may help my cold. Being sick for a month sucks. :cry:

[fernandito]

I'll be the first (maybe only) dissenter here. I think it's the height of rudeness to stand around and speak in a language that you know someone else doesn't understand, and that is not the native language of that country. If you work in Germany, you speak German in the office. If you work in the US, you speak English. I think it is just basic politeness.

There is a huge difference between the U.S and any other country - The U.S is a country of immigrants, and the diversity of races here towers over any other country. Here in my workplace alone, there are mexicans, guatemalans, koreans, fillipinos, chinese, and a handful of other nationalitys, and all of them speak in their native tongues. Why? Because it's a lot more comfortable for them to do so- they've spent a better part of their lifes in a different country, speaking a different language and with different cultural practices. I was born and raised here, so it's a lot easier for me to carry a conversation in English then it is for , lets say, my parents, whom where raised south of the border.

[Daghain]

Yes, but they live in the US NOW, so it would be polite (and prudent) to learn and use the language of the country they are in. When in Rome...

What you speak at home is your own business, and I do believe kids should be brought up to be bilingual whenever possible.

[obscurejude]

what I know for sure, however, that I would speak Russian (or any other language) in the presence of people who don't speak it no more than I would masturbate or pick my nose in their presence. It's not a matter of anyone getting hurt, it's just the question of personal culture, like cleanliness or decency.

I like the position of those who speak for language majority here, though: it's up to the majority to be sympathetic with the minorities' problems and tactful towards minorities themselves; but it's a matter of the minorities' decency - ultimately, honor, - not to trespass on that tactfulness.

Well said Jean. I agree.

[fernandito]

Yes, but they live in the US NOW, so it would be polite (and prudent) to learn and use the language of the country they are in. When in Rome...

What you speak at home is your own business, and I do believe kids should be brought up to be bilingual whenever possible.

So what if they're in the U.S? Being bilingual is an advantage, not a handicap. The owner of this place (whom is American and a caucasian) gives specific instructions to her kids 'nana' to never speak to them in English, only in Spanish; she wants her children to have the advantage of dominating a different langauge apart from English, because she knows of the types of benefits that it can produce.

[Daghain]

Like I said, I think it's good to raise bilingual kids. However, when you are in a business setting, you should speak the language of the country you are in. It's impolite, IMHO, to stand around work speaking a language not native to that country.

[fernandito]

Like I said, I think it's good to raise bilingual kids. However, when you are in a business setting, you should speak the language of the country you are in. It's impolite, IMHO, to stand around work speaking a language not native to that country.

And like I said, it's not that simple. This country is a trump card, it is special because of the MASSIVE amount of immigrants residing here- latin, asian, european, whatever. People like you or me can never understand what it's like to come from another country and to try to immerse yourself into this country and it's cultre, simply because we have the privilege of being born here. My parents "arrived" in this country with little more than the clothes on their backs, and they had to make a monumental effort to try to adapt to their new enviroment and to learn the native tongue (with no help from some of these racist fucks). Considering the fact that my mother was not able to attend school here , I am extremely proud of her for being able to speak English as well as she does, given the fact that the learning facilities (a*k*a school) was unavaible to her.

[Daghain]

Yes, but what opportunities are open to people who can't speak the language? Yes, it's harder for an adult to learn, but not impossible. And, the more you use it, the better you get. Not becoming fluent in the native language of a country is doing yourself a disservice and closing the door to a lot of opportunities that would otherwise be open to you.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. :)

[fernandito]

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. :)

Yeah, I think so. :)

Oop! pardon me a minute, someone is calling me here to my work phone...

Oye, boricua! Come esta todo? Tranquilo? Eso es todo!


:innocent:

[Jean]

казалось бы, люди могут проявить уважение к стране, которая их приютила?

[fernandito]

Jean, that is very impolite of you!

[Jean]

I didn't say I was polite, or I was after politeness, by the way...

[jayson]

according to google translator he said:

seemingly, people can show respect for the country which sheltered them?

[Jean]

Right. Again, is not a question of politeness or political correctness, but that of gratitude; the former does not seem important to me (unless politeness is an outward manifestation of some inner need, urge or just habit; again, much akin to cleanliness), while the latter is one of the basic features that form personality. Neglecting basic principles of gratitude; trespassing on other's people hospitality or tolerance is like forgetting the face of one's father. I understand it may be difficult to learn a language, but people who are unable or too old to do so shouldn't at least try to pass it as their virtue or sacred right.

[fernandito]

I think you have taken this completely out of proportion, no one is 'ungrateful' here.

[Girlystevedave]

I understand that people should learn the prominent language of the country they live in, but I think it's mainly for their benefit, not mine. If they choose to speak their language with someone else, I don't have the right to complain. That would be like me saying that it's impolite for someone to pass notes back and forth without me knowing what is being said. It's their business. I don't speak any language other than english and I work with the public. I have encountered a lot of customers who speak only Spanish, and I don't get upset at them for it. I simply try to communicate with them the best that I can. Because, although I think I would try to learn the language of the country I live in, I don't know that certain person's circumstances. And I would hate to think someone would turn their nose up at me because of a language barrier.

[fernandito]

I understand that people should learn the prominent language of the country they live in, but I think it's mainly for their benefit, not mine. If they choose to speak their language with someone else, I don't have the right to complain. That would be like me saying that it's impolite for someone to pass notes back and forth without me knowing what is being said. It's their business. I don't speak any language other than english and I work with the public. I have encountered a lot of customers who speak only Spanish, and I don't get upset at them for it. I simply try to sommunicate with them the best that I can. Because, although I think I would try to learn the language of the country I live in, I don't know that certain person's cisrcumstances. And I would hate to think someone would turn their nose up at me because of a language barrier.

:wub:

[Jean]

I think you have taken this completely out of proportion, no one is 'ungrateful' here.

God, where "here"? I was referring to that:


There is a huge difference between the U.S and any other country - The U.S is a country of immigrants, and the diversity of races here towers over any other country. Here in my workplace alone, there are mexicans, guatemalans, koreans, fillipinos, chinese, and a handful of other nationalitys, and all of them speak in their native tongues. Why? Because it's a lot more comfortable for them to do so- they've spent a better part of their lifes in a different country, speaking a different language and with different cultural practices.

[fernandito]

I don't understand your question...are you asking me what I meant by "here"? If so, I meant here where I work at (office). And I don't see how can derive any sense of ungratefulness from my post above.

[Jean]

Feverish... why did you decide I was meaning you personally, or your office? I was referring to those people, who come to a country, whether it is the USA, or any other, and do not learn the language.

The big difference for me is, then, whether they don't speak it because they are unable to, or they refuse on principle. The latter seems to me ingratitude, and it represents for me things I don't like about people. I am, frankly, a little scared and very much surprized that the question of you in your office could in any way be tied to my post. (maybe because of some wrong post chronology? I still don't know. Why would you think I would so suddenly get that personal? I was thinking thoughts based on my own life experience, furthest possible from anyone around here. That chain of thoughts was started as a response to a statement you made and which I considered theoretical; if I knew if could be taken personal I would have never ever spoken.)

[fernandito]

Misunderstood you, muchacho.

On the subject of refusal - from what I've experienced, many if not most of immigrants that come to this country (latin or otherwise), make a sincere effort to at least learn the bare minimum; perhaps some of them may not do it with principle in mind so much as for personal benefit, but the effort is there.

[cozener]

Yes, but they live in the US NOW, so it would be polite (and prudent) to learn and use the language of the country they are in. When in Rome...

What you speak at home is your own business, and I do believe kids should be brought up to be bilingual whenever possible. By that rationale we should all be speaking Apache... :D

[Jean]

On the subject of refusal - from what I've experienced, many if not most of immigrants that come to this country (latin or otherwise), make a sincere effort to learn the language; perhaps some of them may not do it with principle in mind so much as for personal benefit, but the effort is there.
Very much unlike here. (much to my horror, because it breeds an assortment of escalating bad feelings from both sides)


Misunderstood you, muchacho.
Yes. It shows, by the way, that the question of language is explosive, like, alas, anything connected with politics. (otherwise you would have known that it's me, - the bear, remember? - grumpy old brute, of course, but ultimately harmless and, basically, one of the good guys...)

[Jean]

Yes, but they live in the US NOW, so it would be polite (and prudent) to learn and use the language of the country they are in. When in Rome...

What you speak at home is your own business, and I do believe kids should be brought up to be bilingual whenever possible. By that rationale we should all be speaking Apache... :D
No, because it is not the question of the territory occupied, but that of the civilization that prevails. Immigrants don't immigrate to get to your land, it's to use the benefits of the civilization you've created; thus, it's them who have to accept the culture, too - at least to an extent that would enable them to communicate without experiencing or causing difficulties.

[obscurejude]

Exactly Jean.

[fernandito]

:)

[Girlystevedave]

I'm just gonna throw this out, although it's not the religion thread, but oh well,:
Tower of Babel:orely:
Anyone

[Jean]

Tower of Babel, what?

(my whole life is Tower of Babel... I more or less speak a shit ton of languages, and have friends in a shit ton of countries, and teach a shit ton of stuff to people from all kinds of backgrounds and mothertongues... you can's scare a bear with a Tower of Babel, which isn't even dark.)

[Jean]

:)
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

[obscurejude]

The Tower of Babel illustrates the purpose of language. Without going into Wittgenstenian constructions of language games, suffice it to say that the purpose of language is to muddle along in societies. Thats why it isn't appropriate to speak languages no one can understand in an office setting. At its core, every language has arose for the same purpose- they have a common origin in this sense.

[fernandito]

Thats why it isn't appropriate to speak languages no one can understand in an office setting.

In your opinion*, maestro.

[obscurejude]

In my opinion, Ludwig Wittgenstein's, St. Augustine of Hippo, and Moses if he wrote Genesis.

[fernandito]

:lol:

[obscurejude]

:lol:

[Brice]

In my opinion, Ludwig Wittgenstein's, St. Augustine of Hippo, and Moses if he wrote Genesis.


Really, Ryan? I don't seem to recall any of them mentioning an office setting. :P

[cozener]

Yes, but they live in the US NOW, so it would be polite (and prudent) to learn and use the language of the country they are in. When in Rome...

What you speak at home is your own business, and I do believe kids should be brought up to be bilingual whenever possible. By that rationale we should all be speaking Apache... :D
No, because it is not the question of the territory occupied, but that of the civilization that prevails. Immigrants don't immigrate to get to your land, it's to use the benefits of the civilization you've created; thus, it's them who have to accept the culture, too - at least to an extent that would enable them to communicate without experiencing or causing difficulties. I think I just got bitchslapped in an argument. Hmmm...so thats what it feels like...

[obscurejude]

In my opinion, Ludwig Wittgenstein's, St. Augustine of Hippo, and Moses if he wrote Genesis.


Really, Ryan? I don't seem to recall any of them mentioning an office setting. :P

I'll explain it to you on the 7th. They really did, or at least vicariously through Wittgenstein. Read Philosophical Investigations, pg 45 or 46 of the routledge guide if I recall.

[Daghain]

Yes, but they live in the US NOW, so it would be polite (and prudent) to learn and use the language of the country they are in. When in Rome...

What you speak at home is your own business, and I do believe kids should be brought up to be bilingual whenever possible. By that rationale we should all be speaking Apache... :D
No, because it is not the question of the territory occupied, but that of the civilization that prevails. Immigrants don't immigrate to get to your land, it's to use the benefits of the civilization you've created; thus, it's them who have to accept the culture, too - at least to an extent that would enable them to communicate without experiencing or causing difficulties. I think I just got bitchslapped in an argument. Hmmm...so thats what it feels like...


:rofl:

Never stops me from arguing, anyway. :)

[ATG]

The best is when spanish speakers assume I can't understand them;
" Qué un culo perezoso "

equals = your fired.

[Ka-mai]

I don't normally have any problems with people speaking other languages, unless they expect me to understand them (which I won't) or we're playing poker... it's generally a rule that you have to speak English at the table so no one thinks you're cheating.

I usually go by "if I were in another country, would I do this/expect people to do this for me?" and if the answer is no, then I don't let it bother me.

:lol: ATG, I know the feeling, my best friend taught me all the Spanish curses so I know exactly what's being said to me. It's awesome.

[cozener]

I don't normally have any problems with people speaking other languages, unless they expect me to understand them (which I won't) or we're playing poker... it's generally a rule that you have to speak English at the table so no one thinks you're cheating.Oh I didn't think about poker. Yeah...I'd have to say thats a good rule. :)

[Daghain]

Cute story: I used to work out on the factory floor and one of the older women there told me she was working with two temps who spoke only Spanish to each other all day, cutting down everyone they were working with, talking trash, etc. This woman did not look at all Hispanic but was born & raised in Mexico.

Anyway, she lets them blather all day long, then about 5 minutes before the shift ends she looks up at both of them and rattles off a shitload of Spanish to them.

Needless to say the two temps never came back. :lol:

Lesson of the story: Don't assume I can't speak your language. :lol:

[Bethany]

let's tweak this argument a little and see if anyone's position changes. let's take "language" out of the equation because the language we speak is so much more to us than the words that come out of our mouths...

my home town is home to the alabama institute for the deaf and blind (AIDB), kind of a really big deal because of some chick named helen keller :P. this is not only a school for the deaf and blind but also the largest employer of the same in the state. several years ago, a rule was put in to place that ALL conversations on campus had to be in ASL--even if between all non-deaf participants. needless to say, a big ruckus ensued. i'm not quite sure what the final outcome was. i think this situation raises some very good thought provoking issues to this conversation.

[John Blaze]

Funny you should mention that, I just donated money to the Hellen Keller foundation at Movie Gallery, they're doing some kind of fundraiser. I took

I agree with Jean and others that it can be extremely rude to speak a language that is not understood by a person in their presence, i.e. an office setting.

HOWEVER, if I'm walking around Wal-Mart shopping with my wife, and we're speaking spanish, is that rude? I don't think so. First off, we have the anonymity of being alone in a public place, so if you're walking around trying to listen to our conversation the rude person is you.

As to whether a person has an obligation to learn the language when they come into a country? I think the person should try, not only to help them adapt to their new environment, but to help them improve their situation. If you're saying it should be required? When we moved to this country, I was 11. I learned English because I was placed in a school, with all the advantages that entails, and had nothing but time and opportunity. My father was working in the fields, and my mother was working at a Levi Strauss factory in town. My father worked 16 hours a day to make enough money to feed us and keep us clothed, and my mother helped him keep a roof over our heads. She only worked 10 hour days. Now, my father worked in agriculture, my mother in a factory which was pretty much a sweatshop, with other mexicans (because anyone who knew english could get a better job, so why would they be killing themselves working there for so little money?) so from whom was she supposed to learn English?

Even so, my father speaks English very fluently. He doesn't have my command of the language, nor will he ever be a loquacious orator, but he's perfectly understandable. My mother knows enough to carry a conversation, and isn't totally fluent.

Now, if my mother comes to your place of business, such as a bank, and wants to apply for a loan, why would that make her have to speak English?

[Mist_on_the_Water]

mira, yo hablo mucho espanol. Yo estoy floja y no uso accentos mucho pero la lengua es divertida. Personas en my escuela usan tres lengua BUTs y usanlo mucho. Pero, no es divertido cuando yo n comprendo frances o italiano.

And a translation: (probably innacruate because I'm not QUITE fluent yet)
see, i speak a lot of spanish. I'm lazy and dont use accents much, but the language is fun. people in my school use three languages and they use it a lot.BUT, its not fun when i dont understand french or italian.

I get the whole business thing and I agree with that but it feels like in this day and age, people speak different languages. I suppose if u have a business of some sort thats run by people who speak motsly English, bosses and managers included, then everybody ought to speak the language. However, if a business is run by someone who speaks another language, spanish the most likely here as far as I know (being so close to Mexico and Puerto Rico and others) then perhaps everyone ought to try to use it. I suppose that's the idealistic outlook on it but hey, I'm that kinda person.

Either way i also agree that it shouldn't matter what they speak as long as they can communicate with those they need to communicate with.

[Mist_on_the_Water]

Donde esta Sergio? He oughtta be here..might have a bit of insight..?

(Donde esta = where is...)

[John Blaze]

No se donde esta Sergio, la verdad no lo he visto por buen rato.

Despues lo busco y lo mando para aca.

[cozener]

You know whats funny. While reading this thread I've had a little twinge of that left out feeling when one of you have posted something in another language.

That said, this is a conversation I want to participate in. I suppose if I were more sensitive...or maybe I should use the phrase "thin skinned"...I might wonder if a conversation between a couple of Spanish speaking co-workers might be a conversation I'd like to be a part of and feel left out because I couldn't be. I guess I just operate under the assumption that if it were my coworkers would speak English.

When they lapse into Spanish its often because they're communicating in what is, to them, the most effective language to communicate in. Sometimes the problems that we deal with can be complicated and its important that, when we seek out one anothers' advice or for some basic information, which is often, explanations have to be clear. The customer with the complicated issue is likely a Spanish speaker. It has happened where a bilingual rep will come to me for help with something and will generally understand what I said but will still immediately turn to another bilingual rep that sits right next to me to hear what I said reiterated in Spanish...not because they don't understand but because they want to be sure that they can explain it in Spanish to the customer. I don't think twice about it.

They might also be discussing something that they don't want me to hear because its private. I have no problem with this. I would do it too if I knew another language. As it is, if I want to have a private conversation in the workplace I have to resort to emails or making it obvious that I am discussing something I don't want other people to hear by whispering close to someone's ear.

And again, if they're badmouthing me in another language so I won't know then their opinions don't count. If they can't communicate it to me directly then they clearly either don't really believe what they're saying or they fear me for some reason, in which case, whatever they have to say, true or not...rude or not, doesn't matter because I am in control. Besides, if you really want to talk about someone you can do so when the person you're talking about isn't within earshot. You can do so through text messaging or email. You can talk after work. So what does it matter if a conversation about me happens right in front of me in a language I don't understand? The conversation will happen anyway and I won't know about it in any case. Why sweat that which you cannot prevent or control and will always be completely ignorant of?

Besides, Spanish can be an awfully sexy language when spoken by some of the coworkers I have so if I hear my name thown in with a few Spanish sentences I just pretend that they're saying things like, "I've been a bad girl and I think Brad needs to come over here and give me a good spanking." or maybe "I'd love to have Brad under my desk for the rest of the afternoon, what about you Maria?"

[OchrisO]

I think it is a bit rude to do so in a work setting, or any small setting, but I think a rule against it is pretty silly. I like to pretend that I don't understand spanish at all(I'm not great at it anyway, but can usually puzzle stuff out) when people are speaking it around me, that way if they say something about me I can say " ¡Cuidadoso qué tú dice, puta!" or something of that nature. that's probably bad sentence structure, but it works for me.

[Mattrick]

At work my bosses have decreed that folks that are bi lingual can only speak Spanish to customers and not each other. Apparently, they consider speaking Spanish to eachother to be rude to those of us that do not speak Spanish. I, for one, don’t really get it. I figure that if someone is talking about me and they can’t say whatever they have to say to me directly then their opinion lacks conviction, therefore, doesn’t really matter to me. I don’t feel left out if people speak another language around me. If they were talking to me they’d speak English. I’m sure that if I moved to some other country I’d be more comfortable speaking English and it would be easy to lapse into it if I were surrounded by Brits, Aussies, Canadians, and other Americans just like I’m sure its easy for these folks to lapse into Spanish around Dominicans, Mexicans, Cubans, and Puerto Ricans.

In my old Job there were Shri Lankans, Pakistanis, Jamacains, Africans, Irish guys...the list went on for some time. We had no such rules but I can see why those rules exist. It's not even that they could simply be talking about others but they may very well be saying some very harsh stuff; could be riddled full of threats, racism etc. So just because they speak a different language they should be permitted to say such things right in front a person?

This situation makes me think of that Seinfeld episode with Elaine and those korean women who always talked about her. It wasn't very extreme but say that situation happened in real life and those women were calling people 'white trash hookers who need coathanger abortions' or any other nasty thing to say.

I just don't see how a language barrier is just cause for allowing this to happen. I'm all for people speaking thier native language, go for it, but you can see where interpersonal relationships in an office or workplace might come into question.

btw coezoner; they are saying these things to you directly...you just can't understand it. You have to consider that.

[Mattrick]

There is a huge difference between the U.S and any other country - The U.S is a country of immigrants, and the diversity of races here towers over any other country. Here in my workplace alone, there are mexicans, guatemalans, koreans, fillipinos, chinese, and a handful of other nationalitys, and all of them speak in their native tongues. Why? Because it's a lot more comfortable for them to do so- they've spent a better part of their lifes in a different country, speaking a different language and with different cultural practices. I was born and raised here, so it's a lot easier for me to carry a conversation in English then it is for , lets say, my parents, whom where raised south of the border.

My workplace was similar and white people were easily the minority. Toronto is about the most multicultural city in the world and my warehouse was right on the outskirts of it.

This is my veiws on immigration ettiquette: We bring them into our country, give them money, a place to stay and a job/business in order to live a better life. The least they can do is at least attempt to speak english when not in the privacy of their homes or say, around only others of their culture. If I were to move to Japan I would learn Japanese.

Even if we go to another country, with English being the dominant language you can bet a chunk of Japanese or French or Spanish people know English. But how many white/black/native born people can speak Arabic? Japanese? German? A much smaller number than residents in other countries that know english. So of course it's much easier to get away with things and if they get caught on something they place the race card...not saying this is all cases but I've seen very similar situations in my life. It's a delicate situation. They have freedom of speech and religion etc but when you think about it, it gives them more of a freedom of speech than english speaking people.

The main problem with America is that their dealings with immigration differ greatly from ours and over half their immigrants are illegal.

[Mattrick]

HOWEVER, if I'm walking around Wal-Mart shopping with my wife, and we're speaking spanish, is that rude? I don't think so. First off, we have the anonymity of being alone in a public place, so if you're walking around trying to listen to our conversation the rude person is you.

I completely agree with this.


As to whether a person has an obligation to learn the language when they come into a country?

Yes, they should. Not sure how American immigration is but in Canada we provide a great amount of care and provide them with a starting place. I know America is strict about learning American History and things like that. Canada is much looser in their immigration restrictions yet we don't have half the immigration issues. I don't think they need to learn it right away but over time they should. It would make them feel more accepted and as part of the society. When immigrants don't learn english they are far more apt to remain segregated from our english speaking society which is, in my opinion, completely unacceptable. I don't want my tax dollars going to helping people come here and ignore english speaking society. It's common around her for immigrants to stay amongst themselves. They move here, take advantage of our system and some don't even make the least bit of effort to adapt or to take hold of our way of life. They can wear what they want to wear, believe what they want to believe; I completely agree in those freedoms. All I ask is that they learn english. It's as they say 'when in rome, do as the romans do'. It quite simply limits the amount of controversy and side stepping when it comes to racial issues and is nothing but a step towards joining us all together.

[Brice]

It used to bug me not knowing what people were saying in a foreign language when I was younger, but now it really doesn't. I presume either they don't speak my language as fluently as their own or that they don't want me to know what they're saying. Either way it's none of my business and I don't mind/care.

I do think if you go to a country where another language is spoken that you should attempt to learn the dominant language (for their own benefit) , but I imagine it's not exactly easy to do so fluently. It takes time and everyone learns at a different pace. Even if they do know your language as well as you they will likely still feel more comfortable speaking their own I think.

[cozener]

btw coezoner; they are saying these things to you directly...you just can't understand it. You have to consider that. I don't see how thats worth consideration...they are not saying it to me directly other than in the fact that they are moving their mouths and sending sound waves in my general direction. My definition of "direct" includes saying it to me in a way that I can understand. If they're saying it in a language I don't understand they might as well not be saying anything. Its just so much gibberish to me so it has no effect on me. They might as well be whispering it a thousand miles away. They might be calling me a big ugly stupid asshole to my face but since they can't say it to me in English it means nothing. Sure, it might be amusing to them to get away with calling me names in that way but they know that the only reason theyre striking out in such petty and cowardly fashion is because they don't feel strongly enough about it to have a confrontation with me.

[John Blaze]

: We bring them into our country, give them money, a place to stay and a job/business in order to live a better life. The least they can do is at least attempt to speak english when not in the privacy of their homes or say, around only others of their culture. If I were to move to Japan I would learn Japanese.

What's this "WE" shit? I don't know about Canada, honestly I've never been there and because it doesn't affect me I haven't taken time to research their immigration policy, but here in the good ol' US of A we don't get a goddamn fucken thing.

What really pisses me off is people saying we come here to live off of welfare and shit.

Have you ever tried applying for welfare of any kind? They require a social security number, and because it is the federal government you are applying to, they know if your number is fake. The ONLY bitching that has merit is about the healthcare, because I know when you go to a emergency room in this country they HAVE to help you, regardless if you can pay or not.

However, being that I was a bank manager and loan officer for so many years, I've seen plenty of affluent white, black, and chicano's credit reports, and trust me when I say 80% of the motherfuckers owed shitloads in health bills to collections companies, even the ones with plenty of money. I knew a guy personally who owned a 300k dollar home outright and owed about 30k in health costs. But all you hear about is the immigrants.

Anyways, I'm getting off topic here, and again, I must recluse myself from this case because as I said once in .net, this is personal to me, not arguing politics.

[OchrisO]

I hate when white people(I'm white) in North America complain about immigration. It is the most illogical bit of business on the entire planet.

[MonteGss]

I just want to throw a FACT out at some people that they may not know:

There is NO official language in the United States.

I speak two languages, I learned Spanish living in another country. When I lived there, I spoke English with fellow Americans, but only because they were not invested in learning Spanish like I was. This only happened in the few times I hung out with them.
I spoke Spanish most of the time because Spanish is the official language. Also, because of the whole "when in rome..."

People who immigrate here should try to learn English and from what I have read in this thread, nobody is saying otherwise. However, if you don't like the fact that many languages are spoken in this country, then leave. :) Everyone has the right to speak whatever language they want, whenever they want. I do think that politeness and common sense should come into play though....if you are speaking to me, speak in English unless I've told you differently.

Just my two cents. :)

[Mist_on_the_Water]

John, would you mind translating into English as well if we are to have a conversation in Spanish? not only am I not entirely fluent (and therefore dont understand everything) but this thread is about it being rude or not to others who dont know the langage. it just seems kinda odd that we'd not at least translate it ><;

[Daghain]

Have you ever tried applying for welfare of any kind? They require a social security number, and because it is the federal government you are applying to, they know if your number is fake. The ONLY bitching that has merit is about the healthcare, because I know when you go to a emergency room in this country they HAVE to help you, regardless if you can pay or not.


Well, something is going on somewhere then, because our Social Security office has bilingual signs. I always thought that a) you had to be a citizen to get SS and b) to be a citizen you had to have a working knowledge of the language. So why the bilingual signs? Not trying to pot-stir, I honestly want to know. Oh, and it takes even the IRS awhile to figure out if someone's number got swiped. We had a bust at the local meat packing plant and there was a huge ring of stolen SS numbers discovered. No one finds out until they get audited and the IRS says you didn't account for that $20,000 you made last year in Colorado. And you say, "I worked in Florida all year!" So, yeah, it can be done. Not for long, but it can be done.

And I am all for making English the official language of the US. It would make things a lot easier, IMHO.

And yeah, I don't give a rat's ass what language you speak to each other in a private conversation in Wal-Mart either.

[ZoNeSeeK]

If this starts becoming a stupid shitfest about Immigration, could you move it to the Politics thread? thanks.




In my old Job there were Shri Lankans, Pakistanis, Jamacains, Africans, Irish guys...

I can speak fluent Irish!

Anyway, I can understand why a workplace would introduce a blanket-language rule. Its purely a preventative because you're eventually going to get some dickhead thats going to make a big fucking issue about someone speaking a foreign language around them or on the flip side you're going to get people abusing the situation and slagging off other workers etc. To me, this is the same preventative as banning "gang" colours or whatever it was from school - these are places of work and rules are instated to support this. At the end of the day, not being able to bitch about your neighbour with your cubicle buddy in Korean is going to have absolutely zero impact on your job. Diem and I were looking at moving to Germany or Holland for a year or so for work and I would absolutely expect to speak German or Dutch when I was at work - what a great way to get a fuller grasp of the language, anyway.

But personally (which is where the discussion seems to have gone) I really don't have an issue with people speaking other languages around me, as long as its not being obviously exclusionary - and obviously, you have no idea what people can understand and what they can't (like Daghain's example above). But hey, if someone wants to say something negative about me, in front of me, in another language, they can go for it. If just they and the idiot they're bitching to are the only ones understanding then its a pretty useless insult anyway ;)

And if the situation was reversed, I would probably only revert to a native language if it was just too bloody difficult to convey the same thing in english - some localised phrases or references are almost impossible to communicate correctly in other languages.

[ZoNeSeeK]

Edit: just read about English not being the Official language of the US.

No offense, but not having an official language doesn't make any sense :) Why is this the case?

[MonteGss]

The Founding Fathers didn't want to piss anyone off and since it was the land of the immigrants, they didn't feel they had the right. It has just stuck throughout the years and there have been no amendments to the Constitution concerning the official language. There are states though that have English as their official language but not the Union.

[Ka-mai]

let's tweak this argument a little and see if anyone's position changes. let's take "language" out of the equation because the language we speak is so much more to us than the words that come out of our mouths...

my home town is home to the alabama institute for the deaf and blind (AIDB), kind of a really big deal because of some chick named helen keller :P. this is not only a school for the deaf and blind but also the largest employer of the same in the state. several years ago, a rule was put in to place that ALL conversations on campus had to be in ASL--even if between all non-deaf participants. needless to say, a big ruckus ensued. i'm not quite sure what the final outcome was. i think this situation raises some very good thought provoking issues to this conversation.

My friend goes to RIT, and apparently they have a huge deaf/hearing impaired population, and he says the deaf kids are incredibly stuck up. Even if you try to learn some signing if you don't do it right they're dicks about it. So like, they're pretty much making you want to not even bother.

[Brice]

I know some sign language for them. :)

[Ka-mai]

:lol:

[cozener]

I think the reason we don't have an official language in the US is because the Framers felt that having an official language was another way to create a kind of "tyranny of the majority". Although, in practice, I'm not so sure that not having an official language really protects anyone...especially when an individual state can designate an official language.

[ZoNeSeeK]

For some reason, I don't think the plan worked anyway :)