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Letti
03-26-2008, 11:19 PM
If he has to repeat his loop from the desert - that's what we all think - , how could he pick up the horn???
Maybe it's a very very stupid question and I cry your pardon if it's obvious but I have been thinking of it for awhile and it gives me more questions.

If he has to start his quest from the desert he has NO chance to pick up the horn... Jericho Hill was ages before that...
So how does it work?

OchrisO
03-26-2008, 11:38 PM
The horn was placed on the stairs of the tower by whatever force(Gan, I'd imagine), so he picks it up before he goes through the door, not after when he is in the desert again. One can assume that him finding the horn tehre will somehow allow him to have it this time when he appears in the desert again, having changed things somehow to wher ehe didn't drop it at Jericho Hill.

Or perhaps not even changing his memory of Jericho Hill, but he just wake sup in the desert and has the Horn, which would maybe give him some sort of clue as to what he should dodifferently this time.

obscurejude
03-27-2008, 08:33 AM
It has been suggested before that the horn was a gift from Gan based on Roland's growth during the 19th cycle.

Ka-tet
03-27-2008, 08:42 AM
It has been suggested before that the horn was a gift from Gan based on Roland's growth during the 19th cycle.

And there you have it.

Daghain
03-27-2008, 08:45 AM
I was going to say pretty much what obscurejude said. It is alluded to be a gift from the Tower - it's way of saying things may be different this time.

jayson
03-27-2008, 08:46 AM
It has been suggested before that the horn was a gift from Gan based on Roland's growth during the 19th cycle.

And there you have it.

except it's also been suggested that the cycle we read was far from the 19th. i'd say the number of loops to this point we read is closer to delah than to 19. and as delah means beyond counting, so that sounds like A LOT more than 19 times. still, the ultimate point remains, horn as gift from gan. that i agree with.

obscurejude
03-27-2008, 08:49 AM
Jayson, so picky. It was just a suggestion. Don't have your 19th nervous breakdown.

Ka-tet
03-27-2008, 08:49 AM
At least we agree on that ^_^

jayson
03-27-2008, 08:50 AM
Don't have your 19th nervous breakdown.

that's also closer to delah than 19.

Jean
03-27-2008, 09:24 AM
Horn as gift from Gan or anyone else ruins the whole story for me.

::tiptoes away with his own opinion::

obscurejude
03-27-2008, 09:25 AM
*calls after Jean for opinion*

Daghain
03-27-2008, 09:26 AM
Oh, no you don't. Care to explain that? :)

Ka-tet
03-27-2008, 09:27 AM
Yeah Jean, do tell.

Jean
03-27-2008, 09:41 AM
sorry, I won't sound very coherent now,- tired after a working day - will just sketch it roughly. Any story is, for me, the story of a human soul, or else it doesn't have any meaning; Roland's redemption is important, the subordination of the worlds is not; Roland not picking that damned horn at Jericho Hill was for me the key to his nature; Roland picking the horn means he has changed radically. The horn is of no importance; Roland is all-important. The horn falling from the sky is a computer-game bonus, go on to the next level, you have two more lives left. The horn picked by Roland at the moment when it was a silly, irrational thing to do is a whole different thing. A Roland who picks the horn may not drop the boy. Hell, he might find a passable solution in Tull. A Roland who receives the horn from a Higher Force is a pawn.

Ka-tet
03-27-2008, 09:42 AM
^ Left me breathless, thanks Jean.

Do you mind if i quote " Roland who picks the horn may not drop the boy. Hell, he might find a passable solution in Tull. A Roland who receives the horn from a Higher Force is a pawn." ?

jayson
03-27-2008, 09:50 AM
sorry, I won't sound very coherent now,- tired after a working day - will just sketch it roughly. Any story is, for me, the story of a human soul, or else it doesn't have any meaning; Roland's redemption is important, the subordination of the worlds is not; Roland not picking that damned horn at Jericho Hill was for me the key to his nature; Roland picking the horn means he has changed radically. The horn is of no importance; Roland is all-important. The horn falling from the sky is a computer-game bonus, go on to the next level, you have two more lives left. The horn picked by Roland at the moment when it was a silly, irrational thing to do is a whole different thing. A Roland who picks the horn may not drop the boy. Hell, he might find a passable solution in Tull. A Roland who receives the horn from a Higher Force is a pawn.

i see where you are coming from, and agree to an extent i suppose. however, for me the notion that the loops are the same is what is akin to a video game. if it's always, jericho hill and tull and jake it becomes a sequence of events to master, like in a video game. "pick up horn, turn left at tull, don't drop boy" and you get to the next level.

Ka-tet
03-27-2008, 09:51 AM
^ Another good point.

Jean
03-27-2008, 09:56 AM
ah, but even Jericho Hill is not the point! Roland behaving irrationally for the sake of something other than expedience, however, is. Let it be a different situation, but let him act there; Jericho Hill of the previous loop would then itself be just a hint, a pointer, a metaphor of what might happen on the next turn of the spiral, even if it doesn't happen on Jericho Hill per se.

Ka-tet
03-27-2008, 09:59 AM
I dont think i completly understood last time.

What your saying is even if Roland dosnt pick up the horn he can still reach the top?

Jean
03-27-2008, 10:04 AM
No, I'm saying the point is he picks it himself, whatever the circumstances. It's the question of his choice, not of picking up an artefact.

obscurejude
03-27-2008, 11:29 AM
But Jean, if Roland is awarded the horn based on significant ontological progression, its still about his soul the way I see it. Are you saying the concept of reciprocity between Gan and Roland is like a video game? It seems to me, that it is a bi-lateral contingency with the loop. If, then... Why else would there be a loop, or even suggestions of "redemption."

Letti
03-27-2008, 12:05 PM
^ Left me breathless, thanks Jean.

Do you mind if i quote " Roland who picks the horn may not drop the boy. Hell, he might find a passable solution in Tull. A Roland who receives the horn from a Higher Force is a pawn." ?

It think it can be a spoiler.


Horn as gift from Gan or anyone else ruins the whole story for me.

Oh, you have no idea how happy I was to see this line. I started to think that I am the only weirdo again.
Thank you.
Horn as a gift from Gan... no way for me.
For me it's only one acceptable way of the Horn. That Roland himself picked it up. There is only one question left in my mind; how could he do it if he starts his loop from the desert?

Jean
03-27-2008, 12:18 PM
Nikolett: did you notice that most of the times you think you're the only weirdo we end up being two weirdos?

obscure: I have exhausted my thinking capacity (not much to begin with, as it is often the case with the ursine). We're entering the realm of very subtle things, where not only metaphysics, antropology or moral philosophy, but aesthetics is of primary importance; I'll get back to your argument when find the words.
[roughly: choice and action, and exercizing one's free will versus being estimated, appraised and rewarded/punished... subject of action face to face with his conscience versus two-subjects relation in which one necessarily becomes an object...]
(it's all getting more and more interesting, of course)

Letti
03-27-2008, 12:25 PM
Nikolett: did you notice that most of the times you think you're the only weirdo we end up being two weirdos?

:rose: And what could be better than being a weirdo with Jean? *hug*

Jean
03-27-2008, 12:35 PM
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Messages/hug00083.gif

Mark
03-27-2008, 01:18 PM
He starts his loop back in the desert, but that's because that's when he first thinks that his quest will succed (sic), but things changed before, everything changed really, it's just The Tower throws him back to that point.

Letti
03-27-2008, 11:07 PM
He starts his loop back in the desert, but that's because that's when he first thinks that his quest will succed (sic), but things changed before, everything changed really, it's just The Tower throws him back to that point.

Okay, I see so what about the horn?

Ka-tet
03-28-2008, 01:09 AM
Nice theory mark, but like what jeans saying (if i understand correctly) if Roland dosnt choose the horn at the right (or wrong really) time then there is no progression.

Your thoughts sai?

Storyslinger
03-28-2008, 05:25 AM
If he has to repeat his loop from the desert - that's what we all think - , how could he pick up the horn???
Maybe it's a very very stupid question and I cry your pardon if it's obvious but I have been thinking of it for awhile and it gives me more questions.

If he has to start his quest from the desert he has NO chance to pick up the horn... Jericho Hill was ages before that...
So how does it work?

I always thought that it was a symbolic symbol that he had finally shown care in his last loop. By doing this, he is rewarded with the horn that he previously left in the dirt.

Stinga of A-Town
03-28-2008, 06:25 AM
What about mass multiverse theroy? -
Mayhap each run up the tower is a diffrent version of what could have happened, - streching out to infinity.
One trip he travels with his horn, mayhap doesn't let the boy drop, doesn't lose fingers & toes on the beach and kills the man in black at the emerald palace. Nobody dies, and they all reach the tower together. (Ow, my teeth- too sweet)
Mayhap another, he saved Susan, poped out all kinda babies, only to have her die during the fall of Gilead, causing him to go mad and chase the Man in Black to force him to bring her back to life.
Or we could see a version where he failed his test of manhood, and is cast out, only to end up teamed up with Flagg.
Drops into anything that could possibly be thought of could, and does happen in one world/level of the tower or the next.

Letti
03-28-2008, 10:12 AM
If he has to repeat his loop from the desert - that's what we all think - , how could he pick up the horn???
Maybe it's a very very stupid question and I cry your pardon if it's obvious but I have been thinking of it for awhile and it gives me more questions.

If he has to start his quest from the desert he has NO chance to pick up the horn... Jericho Hill was ages before that...
So how does it work?

I always thought that it was a symbolic symbol that he had finally shown care in his last loop. By doing this, he is rewarded with the horn that he previously left in the dirt.

How is he rewarded? Suddenly he found the horn in his hand or how?

dark_hour
03-28-2008, 10:58 AM
maybe just maybe, roland got it right. and by saving susannah and stephen king, and ultimately himself, that he got redemption. perhaps the katet that sees susannah team with eddie and jake toren went back (to jericho hill) and got the horn, and repaid the favour...for roland saving them, they save him. so when he loops again the horn is there thanks to the katet. its a nice theory, more fan fic than probable but i just wanted to get involved really

Mark
03-30-2008, 06:27 AM
Well maybe he was cast back to the desert, and has the horn with him from Gan, and his whole memory changed to show HIM picking up the horn?

dark_hour
03-31-2008, 05:31 AM
patrick danville painted him the horn while he was in the tower, and also while he painted the picture in dandelos house. Danville is a creator of doors etc. so i think he is pivitol to the whole tower thing yet we overlook him...maybe in the next cycle

Mark
03-31-2008, 06:37 AM
patrick danville painted him the horn while he was in the tower,

Did he?

Letti
03-31-2008, 06:47 AM
patrick danville painted him the horn while he was in the tower, and also while he painted the picture in dandelos house. Danville is a creator of doors etc. so i think he is pivitol to the whole tower thing yet we overlook him...maybe in the next cycle

Why would he have done such a thing? Just becuse?

Storyslinger
03-31-2008, 06:48 AM
patrick danville painted him the horn while he was in the tower, and also while he painted the picture in dandelos house. Danville is a creator of doors etc. so i think he is pivitol to the whole tower thing yet we overlook him...maybe in the next cycle

I don't remember this. Could you quote this for me.

Jean
03-31-2008, 06:50 AM
I understand it to be dark_hour's theory. Not a bad one; for me, though, absolutely unacceptable (again, it's the question of which matters for you: the horn as an artefact or Roland as a man; thus, which is important: that he has it or that he picks it)

Storyslinger
03-31-2008, 06:53 AM
I understand it to be dark_hour's theory. Not a bad one; for me, though, absolutely unacceptable (again, it's the question of which matters for you: the horn as an artefact or Roland as a man; thus, which is important: that he has it or that he picks it)

Oh....:doh: Thanks Jean. :lol:

Wuducynn
03-31-2008, 06:54 AM
Not a bad one; for me, though, absolutely unacceptable

I love this sentence.

Letti
03-31-2008, 06:59 AM
Not a bad one; for me, though, absolutely unacceptable

I love this sentence.

Yeah.
I couldn't agree more.

dark_hour
03-31-2008, 10:20 AM
Yeah it was nothing more than a theory, danville cant tell us where hes been before and how he ended up with dandelo but mayhap he was told what to do, but couldnt tell anyone else as he was devoid of his tough. its a ridiculous theory ill agree...but one that deserved mention nonetheless

mia/susannah
03-31-2008, 10:51 AM
I have read the whole Dark Tower series and am currently rereading it. I am on the Wizard and Glass. For the life of me, I don't remember Roland recovering the Horn of Eld. Can someone tell me what part of what book that scene is in?

Wuducynn
03-31-2008, 11:02 AM
I have read the whole Dark Tower series and am currently rereading it. I am on the Wizard and Glass. For the life of me, I don't remember Roland recovering the Horn of Eld. Can someone tell me what part of what book that scene is in?

Its not in there. The recovery of the Horn is a mystery.

Letti
03-31-2008, 11:37 AM
Yeah it was nothing more than a theory, danville cant tell us where hes been before and how he ended up with dandelo but mayhap he was told what to do, but couldnt tell anyone else as he was devoid of his tough. its a ridiculous theory ill agree...but one that deserved mention nonetheless

It's not redicious at all but I don't like easy ways.

Jean
03-31-2008, 11:32 PM
I have read the whole Dark Tower series and am currently rereading it. I am on the Wizard and Glass. For the life of me, I don't remember Roland recovering the Horn of Eld. Can someone tell me what part of what book that scene is in?
in the hypothetical future [alternative past; next loop of the spiral] which lies beyond the story told in those seven volumes

Patrick
04-01-2008, 01:30 AM
I agree with Jean completely on this. His posts in this thread state exactly what I have always felt/thought since my first reading of DT 7 - but would have muddled had I tried to express it myself. Thanks, Jean for putting it into words so well. :couple:

mia/susannah
04-01-2008, 06:14 AM
Thank you Jean for clearing that up for me.

Wuducynn
04-01-2008, 06:16 AM
Thats Jean's theory. Like I already said, its a mystery.

wildfire1290
05-01-2008, 04:57 PM
Maybe Gan had rewarded Roland, not by giving him the horn, but having him remember what he had done to help others on his last loop through the tower, and thus gave him the capacity to care more for others, in which would change his whole quest by not dropping Jake and such. Maybe something new happened to him that made him pick up the horn at Jericho Hill rather then having Gan just give it to him.

Letti
05-02-2008, 03:19 AM
He picked up the Horn because he is changing. Progressing. For me it's absolutely clear, there is no question about it.
The Horn is the symbol of the tired still changing soul of Roland.
Just my two cents.
BUT
if he has to restart his quest from the desert how the blue hell can he pick it up? I haven't found or got an acceptable answer for this.

MonteGss
05-02-2008, 03:45 AM
To me, it doesn't matter where he starts from. Even if he starts from the desert Letti, does that mean that Roland has no past, no childhood, no Jericho Hill? To me, it doesn't. It is entirely possible for all of this to be true and for him to still pick up the horn, regardless of if he starts at the desert, Pleasantville or Mejis.

Letti
05-02-2008, 03:53 AM
It doesn't make a big difference if he starts from the beginning or from the desert but I can't help but looking for the logic behind it. Does it make any sense?
This thing doesn't disturb me a lot it's not a big problem but I would like to understand it. That's all. :)

MonteGss
05-02-2008, 03:57 AM
:D
Well, it does make sense to me. As much sense as a fictional quest in a fantasy world can. However, "time travel" and the idea of a repeat can understandably be difficult to understand and fit perfectly into a story. :)



*I use the words time travel very loosely....

Letti
05-02-2008, 04:00 AM
I think this series is absolutely logical. But there are some parts where my mind refuses to work. :D

Jean
05-02-2008, 05:47 AM
I think this series is absolutely logical. But there are some parts where my mind refuses to work. :D
there's no contradiction. The logic of the series (by definition of a series about the Tower) must surpass the logic we're accustomed to, because the story goes far beyond our experience (physical or mental)

Wuducynn
05-02-2008, 05:49 AM
there's no contradiction. The logic of the series (by definition of a series about the Tower) must surpass the logic we're accustomed to, because the story goes far beyond our experience (physical or mental)

Perfectly put, my friend. :harrier:

wildfire1290
05-02-2008, 01:21 PM
I think SK just decided to start Roland back into the desert because that is where we(the readers) had started the tale with Roland. Mayhap when Roland then gets to the point where he is on the Topeka highway talking with his ka-tet, no matter who they are, about his trip with Susan, maybe the story would be different, and when he recalls about the memories on Jericho Hill, those memories could be different because, like Leti has said, he could be changing. He could very well remember the events of his past visits through many other loops, but before he was just too damn stubborn to change his ways, and now that he had learned a plenty on his last loop(the one we read) he had mayhap changed his ways.
Not sure how much sense that really made, I'm just kinda rambling on at this point, but I guess that was my 2 cents.

Wuducynn
05-02-2008, 01:23 PM
I do think that what happened to him at Jericho Hill changed with his being sent back. Maybe with each growth and with each loop his own history changes. Its a very interesting thought.

wildfire1290
05-02-2008, 01:25 PM
I do think that what happened to him at Jericho Hill changed with his being sent back. Maybe with each growth and with each loop his own history changes. Its a very interesting thought.

And with you saying that, it now makes me think that, now that he has changed an event within the past loop, will he still have the same companions that he had had during the loop that we had read about.

Wuducynn
05-02-2008, 01:29 PM
And with you saying that, it now makes me think that, now that he has changed an event within the past loop, will he still have the same companions that he had had during the loop that we had read about.

I am currently just over half way through a re-read of The Gunslinger and he mentions off-handedly to Jake to "sit yourself" and or however Susannah says it and wonders to himself who it was that he knew that said that and couldn't remember. That little part makes me think that he does have the same ka-tet each time.

wildfire1290
05-02-2008, 01:32 PM
Does he mention Susannah's name though? Because it could be the same personality types, just different names and faces. Maybe he was referring to the previous ka-tet that he had during the time when he was with Susan?

Wuducynn
05-02-2008, 01:34 PM
No he doesn't mention the name, I just said he couldn't remember who it was. It sounds an awful lot like Susannah though. My belief is that Eddie, Jake and Susannah are the core members of his original ka-tet continuosly coming back to him, drawn together because maybe they can't be broken.

wildfire1290
05-02-2008, 01:43 PM
Oh the wonders Ka brings us. :)

Letti
05-02-2008, 01:46 PM
Anyway I don't think that there are so many people in our world who could work with Roland to become gubslingers. So there is no way to draw new people all the time.

Wuducynn
05-02-2008, 01:48 PM
I found it -

"The gunslinger smiled. "No you won't. Sit yourself, Jake." Whose phrase had that been? Some woman. Susan? He couldn't remember."

MonteGss
05-02-2008, 01:52 PM
I can't believe I never noticed that before. Huh! :)

wildfire1290
05-02-2008, 01:58 PM
Anyway I don't think that there are so many people in our world who could work with Roland to become gubslingers. So there is no way to draw new people all the time.
Maybe Ka choose different people to be gunslingers when Roland had to redo his loop?

LadyHitchhiker
05-05-2008, 03:15 PM
Being a weirdo with Jean and Letti?

Wuducynn
05-05-2008, 03:41 PM
Liz, did you go off the deep-end?

Brainslinger
05-05-2008, 07:20 PM
I thought originally that maybe Gan gave the horn to Roland as a reward, and his memory was altered to think he picked it up. However, I also remember Roland stating in one book (it was either the Waste Lands, or Wizard and Glass) "The past is also in motion in my world, rearranging in different ways." (That's me paraphrasing.)

So yes, I think it's quite possible his past was changed and he picked up the horn at Jericho hill, even though he wasn't sent back that far in his loop. Maybe Gan/The Tower/whatever reminded him to pick it up and he thought it was just his own thought. Or maybe the change in his personality from his growth also permeated back through his history too all the way.

However, even if the horn was a reward, I don't take that to mean his progress in the previous loop was any less important. Ultimately I see the horn as being the positive side of being a Gunslinger. The horn provides a rallying call to ones men and therefore can be seen as a symbol of ka-tet, indicative of Roland's need for others to succeed, something he really learned in this loop.

At the start of the Revised Gunslinger he ponders on having left the horn behind at Jericho hill, and then speculates "Surely it's the guns that are important?"

True the guns were important. They saved his life and his ka-tet a number of times (whilst ending others) but in the end they are just machines of death, the negative part of being a gunslinger. That's why just leaving the gun at the foot of the Tower was not enough. He needed the symbol of the positive side, manifested by sounding his horn in the field of roses as well.

ladysai
05-05-2008, 08:11 PM
However, even if the horn was a reward, I don't take that to mean his progress in the previous loop was any less important. Ultimately I see the horn as being the positive side of being a Gunslinger. The horn provides a rallying call to ones men and therefore can be seen as a symbol of ka-tet, indicative of Roland's need for others to succeed, something he really learned in this loop.

At the start of the Revised Gunslinger he ponders on having left the horn behind at Jericho hill, and then speculates "Surely it's the guns that are important?"

True the guns were important. They saved his life and his ka-tet a number of times (whilst ending others) but in the end they are just machines of death, the negative part of being a gunslinger. That's why just leaving the gun at the foot of the Tower was not enough. He needed the symbol of the positive side, manifested by sounding his horn in the field of roses as well.

This is an excellent theory! I believe this makes perfect sense, and fits in well with all the dualities within the story.
Good thinking, Brainslinger! :thumbsup:

Letti
05-05-2008, 09:45 PM
I have just added a poll to this thread.

Jean
05-05-2008, 10:08 PM
Being a weirdo with Jean and Letti?
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

Liz, did you go off the deep-end?
she is referring to our posts on page 1

I have voted... I see Nikolett has voted, too

Letti
05-05-2008, 10:24 PM
Absolutely. :couple:

ATG
05-05-2008, 10:36 PM
Seems like there should be a spoiler tag.

Jean
05-05-2008, 10:37 PM
no, there doesn't have to. It's in a spoiler forum.

Wuducynn
05-06-2008, 05:39 AM
she is referring to our posts on page 1


Okay, then Liz, just a suggestion, you could use the quote button to reply to something, instead of just replying to an old post that isn't even on the page. ;)

On the topic, I'm with the idea that Gan is changing Roland's history bit by bit, with each loop.

boq
05-06-2008, 01:28 PM
Here's a thought.
What if the point in time where the man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed, i.e. when Roland pops through the door at the top of the Tower (this time), is when Roland being in posession of the Horn of Eld makes a (vital?) difference for the first time. Perhaps this time he did pick it up at Jericho Hill, but it didn't make a blind piece of difference to the loop until this point (other than being an extra piece of Roland's gunna).
In a way it is a gift from Gan. He's being given the chance to advance without having to go through an identical trip between Jericho Hill and the desert.

wildfire1290
05-06-2008, 08:46 PM
Here's a thought.
What if the point in time where the man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed, i.e. when Roland pops through the door at the top of the Tower (this time), is when Roland being in posession of the Horn of Eld makes a (vital?) difference for the first time. Perhaps this time he did pick it up at Jericho Hill, but it didn't make a blind piece of difference to the loop until this point (other than being an extra piece of Roland's gunna).
In a way it is a gift from Gan. He's being given the chance to advance without having to go through an identical trip between Jericho Hill and the desert.

Kinda lost me there. Sorry. Mind explaining it in stupid for me?

Brainslinger
05-07-2008, 06:23 AM
This is an excellent theory! I believe this makes perfect sense, and fits in well with all the dualities within the story.
Good thinking, Brainslinger! :thumbsup:

Thanks. :huglove:

Brainslinger
05-07-2008, 06:27 AM
Oh, for the poll I chose "He himself picked it up.", although as I've said earlier, I see that as a change in his past hence doesn't contradict Roland being sent back to the Mohain desert segment of the Gunslinger.

Letti
05-09-2008, 12:45 AM
We have one "I have no idea". :lol:

ManOfWesternesse
05-09-2008, 01:02 AM
I can only vote that he picked it up himself.
That it does not change the loop up to that point (the desert) is fairly irrelevant to the story I think.
The potential that it might change things thereafter is what is important (though it's only a small indicator if potential change I think - I don't attach massive importance to Roland picking it up - I just take it as good proof that the loops do differ).

wildfire1290
05-13-2008, 01:23 PM
I can only vote that he picked it up himself.
That it does not change the loop up to that point (the desert) is fairly irrelevant to the story I think.
The potential that it might change things thereafter is what is important (though it's only a small indicator if potential change I think - I don't attach massive importance to Roland picking it up - I just take it as good proof that the loops do differ).

What kind of change were you thinking of?

Merlin1958
05-15-2008, 10:45 AM
ah, but even Jericho Hill is not the point! Roland behaving irrationally for the sake of something other than expedience, however, is. Let it be a different situation, but let him act there; Jericho Hill of the previous loop would then itself be just a hint, a pointer, a metaphor of what might happen on the next turn of the spiral, even if it doesn't happen on Jericho Hill per se.


I'm just spit-balling here but to me the actual events of Jericho Hill don't really count as part of the loop. Reason being that those events occur PRIOR to the loop beginning and therefore cannot be altered by Roland making a different choice. So, Roland somehow being "blessed" (?) with the horn for his 20th loop is significant in that it rewards him for personal character growth (to his soul? if you prefer) achieved on the 19th loop which is offered to us as the DT story.

Also, I just recently finished re-reading the revised gunslinger which at the end pretty much (at least IMHO) sums up the number of loops question as it finishes with Roland dream, after the meeting with TMIB, of him blowing the horn and entering the tower at the end of his quest.


Just another Tower-junkies 2 cents lol :cool:

razz
05-15-2008, 11:32 AM
sorry, I won't sound very coherent now,- tired after a working day - will just sketch it roughly. Any story is, for me, the story of a human soul, or else it doesn't have any meaning; Roland's redemption is important, the subordination of the worlds is not; Roland (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=706) not picking that damned horn at Jericho Hill was for me the key to his nature; Roland picking the horn means he has changed radically. The horn is of no importance; Roland is all-important. The horn falling from the sky is a computer-game bonus, go on to the next level, you have two more lives left. The horn picked by Roland at the moment when it was a silly, irrational thing to do is a whole different thing. A Roland who picks the horn may not drop the boy. Hell, he might find a passable solution in Tull. A Roland who receives the horn from a Higher Force is a pawn.


well we already know he regretts not picking up the horn origionally, but perhaps it was given to him by gan when he returned to the desert like it's some respawn point, and Gan makes him think he picked the horn up, thereby changing his memory, but not his nature. it wouldn't be too dramatic of a change from the old memory, a horn can kind of sit in the background of his stuffs.

razz
05-15-2008, 11:37 AM
but also... think chaos theory and butterfly effect. butterfly flaps it's wings in Miami, creates a tornado in pittsburg. therefore, if roland had obtained the horn from jericho, the added wait and other influences the horn may have caused would affect his entire journey, possibly delaying his encounter with Walter, or even passing by Jake.

ManOfWesternesse
05-15-2008, 03:09 PM
I can only vote that he picked it up himself.
That it does not change the loop up to that point (the desert) is fairly irrelevant to the story I think.
The potential that it might change things thereafter is what is important (though it's only a small indicator if potential change I think - I don't attach massive importance to Roland picking it up - I just take it as good proof that the loops do differ).

What kind of change were you thinking of?

Sorry, hadn't seen your post till now.
I just meant that the fact that the 'change' (ie. the fact he now has the horn) happened BEFORE the loop, but I don't think that's overly significant in that Roland will now BELIEVE he always had the Horn.
I think I've seen other postulate before that this change is difficult because it changes Roland's history before the loop significantly.

obscurejude
05-16-2008, 10:48 AM
That's another of the reasons that I voted it was a gift from Gan.

wildfire1290
05-19-2008, 10:46 PM
ah, but even Jericho Hill is not the point! Roland behaving irrationally for the sake of something other than expedience, however, is. Let it be a different situation, but let him act there; Jericho Hill of the previous loop would then itself be just a hint, a pointer, a metaphor of what might happen on the next turn of the spiral, even if it doesn't happen on Jericho Hill per se.


I'm just spit-balling here but to me the actual events of Jericho Hill don't really count as part of the loop. Reason being that those events occur PRIOR to the loop beginning and therefore cannot be altered by Roland making a different choice. So, Roland somehow being "blessed" (?) with the horn for his 20th loop is significant in that it rewards him for personal character growth (to his soul? if you prefer) achieved on the 19th loop which is offered to us as the DT story.

Also, I just recently finished re-reading the revised gunslinger which at the end pretty much (at least IMHO) sums up the number of loops question as it finishes with Roland dream, after the meeting with TMIB, of him blowing the horn and entering the tower at the end of his quest.


Just another Tower-junkies 2 cents lol :cool:

Well going with what you said, and me having just recently re-read Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came, at the end of the poem it talks about him blowing the horn:

There they stood, ranged along the hillsides, met
To view the last of me, a living frame
For one more picture! in a sheet of flame
I saw them and I knew them all. And yet
Dauntless the slug-horn to my lips I set,
And blew. "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower came."

I believe that this is kind of referring to the horn that he obtained by the time he reached the desert. Either that or the slug horn was his name for his gun and he shouted out that phrase. Anywho, what you said your piece about the end of the revised gunslinger this just kinda popped into my head. Not sure if this really helps the topic, but just felt like it was a nice distraction and maybe someone remembers another verse in the poem to answer the pressing question at hand.

Charles Amey
05-20-2008, 01:01 PM
Dear Tower-aniacs,

not a gift from Gan - a reward!

Matt
05-20-2008, 01:27 PM
It makes sense that "the power that is" would reward Roland with the horn on this next loop.

Letti
05-20-2008, 01:48 PM
Dear Tower-aniacs,

not a gift from Gan - a reward!

So the Dark Tower is just the Wheel of Fortune of Gan?

John Blaze
05-20-2008, 02:00 PM
is that kind of like a wheel of fortune?

Brice
05-20-2008, 02:04 PM
is that kind of like a wheel of fortune?


and a wheel of misfortune at the same time?

Brainslinger
05-20-2008, 05:23 PM
The Tower is the hub of the Wheel of Time. That which spawns Roland and Lews Therin Tellamon as ages past into legend into myth and... oh wait. That's another series of books altogether isn't it? ;)

Merlin1958
05-20-2008, 08:35 PM
Dear Tower-aniacs,

not a gift from Gan - a reward!


Yeah....Hot and sloppy the Johnny Gan way!!!! Right Pongo? LOL LOL:clap:

wildfire1290
05-26-2008, 01:32 AM
Dear Tower-aniacs,

not a gift from Gan - a reward!

So the Dark Tower is just the Wheel of Fortune of Gan?

Why do you say that? I guess i'm not following your logic on that one.

Letti
05-26-2008, 04:10 AM
Dear Tower-aniacs,

not a gift from Gan - a reward!

So the Dark Tower is just the Wheel of Fortune of Gan?

Why do you say that? I guess i'm not following your logic on that one.

I wrote it because you used the word "reward". If you do this or that right you get a reward (like in a quiz show).. does it make some sense now?

Jean
05-26-2008, 06:10 AM
yes. It did before, too.

wildfire1290
05-26-2008, 10:50 AM
Dear Tower-aniacs,

not a gift from Gan - a reward!

So the Dark Tower is just the Wheel of Fortune of Gan?

Why do you say that? I guess i'm not following your logic on that one.

I wrote it because you used the word "reward". If you do this or that right you get a reward (like in a quiz show).. does it make some sense now?

Oh o.k. I got ya now. Thanks for the clarification! :huglove:

Letti
05-26-2008, 11:28 AM
Dear Tower-aniacs,

not a gift from Gan - a reward!

So the Dark Tower is just the Wheel of Fortune of Gan?

Why do you say that? I guess i'm not following your logic on that one.

I wrote it because you used the word "reward". If you do this or that right you get a reward (like in a quiz show).. does it make some sense now?

Oh o.k. I got ya now. Thanks for the clarification! :huglove:

That's why we are here, sai. :rose:

wildfire1290
05-26-2008, 03:09 PM
Dear Tower-aniacs,

not a gift from Gan - a reward!

So the Dark Tower is just the Wheel of Fortune of Gan?

Why do you say that? I guess i'm not following your logic on that one.

I wrote it because you used the word "reward". If you do this or that right you get a reward (like in a quiz show).. does it make some sense now?

Oh o.k. I got ya now. Thanks for the clarification! :huglove:

That's why we are here, sai. :rose:

Dang, totally feeling the love from the Tower Junkies, or maybe just Letti :dance:

wildfire1290
05-26-2008, 03:10 PM
Anywho, anybody else have anything new to add or wants to further argue a point?

Matt
05-27-2008, 12:48 PM
I consider the horn a change for sure and it may signify an bit of redemption on the journey.

I've stated in the comics forum that I bet when the story going on in the comics gets to Jericho Hill, he grabs that horn.

jayson
05-27-2008, 12:50 PM
I've stated in the comics forum that I bet when the story going on in the comics gets to Jericho Hill, he grabs that horn.

so does that make the loop in the comics a different one from the one in the books? i never thought of it that way.

Matt
05-27-2008, 12:51 PM
I believe it may be the very next one.

Its just a feeling I have, I think the comics may tie in that way as opposed to just telling what happened in what we would consider the past from the books.

jayson
05-27-2008, 01:20 PM
very interesting theory. i suppose we shall see in time...

Ka-tet
05-27-2008, 01:32 PM
Thats a very very interesting idea, i never even considerd that the loop in the comics is the next loop...

razz
05-27-2008, 01:41 PM
you can never do perfect, just a little better each time?

Matt
05-27-2008, 02:51 PM
I think "doing perfect" would mean renouncing the Tower.

razz
05-27-2008, 02:59 PM
let me make a reference to the "Lol Cats!" thread:
http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/attachment.php?attachmentid=495&d=1211929158

Merlin1958
05-28-2008, 07:41 AM
Pretty sure guys he does'nt loop back past Jericho Hill and all those events. The end of the story is the first line of the Gunslinger "The Man in Black.........etc.

Therefore, the horn has to be a "gift" as he has no second opportunity to "pick it up". The pertinent events that Roland must deal with (correctly/appropriately?) occur between the TMIB lines in the 7 books. all references to past events in the books (not the comics) are flash back stories.

MonteGss
05-28-2008, 07:45 AM
I believe it may be the very next one.

Its just a feeling I have, I think the comics may tie in that way as opposed to just telling what happened in what we would consider the past from the books.

Wow, Matt. I never thought of this before. I think that would be pretty cool. I wonder if that is how they are going to do it...
:thumbsup:

Matt
05-28-2008, 07:50 AM
Pretty sure guys he does'nt loop back past Jericho Hill and all those events. The end of the story is the first line of the Gunslinger "The Man in Black.........etc.

Therefore, the horn has to be a "gift" as he has no second opportunity to "pick it up". The pertinent events that Roland must deal with (correctly/appropriately?) occur between the TMIB lines in the 7 books. all references to past events in the books (not the comics) are flash back stories.

But you forget we're dealing with the Tower. It can change what happened reguardless of how far back it was.

Just because he begins again in the desert does not mean that he didn't have the opportunity to pick it up.

Jean
05-28-2008, 07:53 AM
Precisely. "Marty, you are thinking three-dimensionally again!" - Doc Brown

razz
05-28-2008, 08:14 AM
you need to think
time: 4th dimension,
and
space: 5th dimension.

wildfire1290
05-28-2008, 04:01 PM
Pretty sure guys he does'nt loop back past Jericho Hill and all those events. The end of the story is the first line of the Gunslinger "The Man in Black.........etc.

Therefore, the horn has to be a "gift" as he has no second opportunity to "pick it up". The pertinent events that Roland must deal with (correctly/appropriately?) occur between the TMIB lines in the 7 books. all references to past events in the books (not the comics) are flash back stories.

But you forget we're dealing with the Tower. It can change what happened reguardless of how far back it was.

Just because he begins again in the desert does not mean that he didn't have the opportunity to pick it up.

Gotta agree with Matt on that one. Maybe in the comic series he picks up the horn, or they don't show it and he has a flash back to it, or maybe in the next loop(no matter how it is portrayed) he has a flash back to Jericho Hill and it tells of Roland picked up the horn.

Matt
05-28-2008, 04:05 PM
All is possible in the halls of The Dark Tower :ninja:

wildfire1290
05-28-2008, 04:10 PM
All is possible in the halls of The Dark Tower :ninja:

So mysterious:unsure: ...

Matt
05-28-2008, 05:14 PM
That's me :nana:

ladysai
05-28-2008, 07:04 PM
It could be that the Tower sends Roland back to the beginning of his 'errors' in judgement.
When he leaves behind the horn, that may be when his path begins to go the 'wrong' way...

Merlin1958
05-28-2008, 07:33 PM
[/COLOR]


Pretty sure guys he does'nt loop back past Jericho Hill and all those events. The end of the story is the first line of the Gunslinger "The Man in Black.........etc.

Therefore, the horn has to be a "gift" as he has no second opportunity to "pick it up". The pertinent events that Roland must deal with (correctly/appropriately?) occur between the TMIB lines in the 7 books. all references to past events in the books (not the comics) are flash back stories.

But you forget we're dealing with the Tower. It can change what happened reguardless of how far back it was.

Just because he begins again in the desert does not mean that he didn't have the opportunity to pick it up.

Gotta agree with Matt on that one. Maybe in the comic series he picks up the horn, or they don't show it and he has a flash back to it, or maybe in the next loop(no matter how it is portrayed) he has a flash back to Jericho Hill and it tells of Roland picked up the horn.


Well as you say anything is possible.............until it isn't. Which is to say that SK could pretty much do anything he likes. I'm just saying that everything has rules of some kind (i.e. the Universe...DT or ours) and even SK laid down a few in the books we have and story we have recieved to date. Within that admittedly flexible set of rules or maybe more to the point until SK gives us more story (as Matt points out could very well change in the comics) we go with what we got. No?

May be just IMHO the fact that there are some rules is what helps to make DT great fiction. That even in that fantastical world (as with LOTR) there are elements that are more plausible because it is within a framework. To me I thought SK was being uncharacteristically blunt with the meaning of the ending and Roland resuming TMIB fled....etc. with the horn now in his posession. To me that was one definitive point he was making that throughout his long journey to the Tower (for the 19th time) he had managed to learn enough about himself and grow as a person to the point where he could now be the hero he was meant to be, before he began obsessing with the quest itself instead of the reasons for getting to the tower in the long run. I think he began tarnishing the old Arthur Eld Ideals and character beginning with the early challenge of Cort, on through the events of Mejis, Jericho Hill and LSOE up until TMIB fled..... At which point Gan kinda said hold on now, you ain't achieving Jack with that attitude pal. Very much along the lines of our old Arthurian Legend, the King and the land are One (Excaliber and many other re-tellings too numerous to mention)

Any way just an Old Farts' thoughts. On the other hand I could very well be a Fucking Idiot just ranting on about Alien abductions, The Kennedy Assasination and the secrets of Freemasonary LOL LOL:lol:

wildfire1290
05-28-2008, 09:38 PM
Any way just an Old Farts' thoughts. On the other hand I could very well be a Fucking Idiot just ranting on about Alien abductions, The Kennedy Assasination and the secrets of Freemasonary LOL LOL:lol: [/COLOR]

At least you didn't do anything weird like tie in the Lincoln Assignation with Roland doing it in the name of the tower in order to receive the horn...

Merlin1958
05-28-2008, 09:48 PM
Any way just an Old Farts' thoughts. On the other hand I could very well be a Fucking Idiot just ranting on about Alien abductions, The Kennedy Assasination and the secrets of Freemasonary LOL LOL:lol: [/COLOR]

At least you didn't do anything weird like tie in the Lincoln Assignation with Roland doing it in the name of the tower in order to receive the horn...


Now that you mention it ..........you think there could be a connection? LOL LOL:excited:

Course the Wizard's Rainbow resulted in the tradgedies of 9-11-01 HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM:scared: :scared: :scared:

wildfire1290
05-28-2008, 09:57 PM
Course the Wizard's Rainbow resulted in the tradgedies of 9-11-01 HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM:scared: :scared: :scared:


Now that you mentioned it I do seem to remember reading something about a plane and tall metal towers during the description of what Roland saw when he looked into the Wizard's Rainbow...

Ves'Ka Gan
06-02-2008, 07:44 PM
Forgive me for not getting all the way through this whole thread, but count me in with the weirdos.

In my mind there is NO WAY the Horn is a gift from Gan or anywhere else. I never questioned the fact that he had changed in this loop and picked it up himself. That unquestionable fact in my mind was what made it possible for me to love the ending rather than resent it.

I agree with the theory that the past may have "rearranged itself". Or my original idea the first time I read it, that maybe the loop didn't actually begin again in the desert, but that is just where we catch up to him (quite like the beginning).

I believe he is changed. And for the change to be real he had to do it himself.

obscurejude
06-02-2008, 09:00 PM
I believe he is changed. And for the change to be real he had to do it himself.

That doesn't mean that it couldn't be a gift from Gan. Why else would Gan give it to him if he didn't earn it somehow? Doesn't the word itself imply reciprocity, cause and effect?

Sam
06-02-2008, 09:45 PM
If the horn is a gift from Gan (and I think it is) for his progress on the 19th journey, how long will it take him to get it right. I think it may well be the 19th loop of 19 loops. That would be 19 to the 19th power folks. THAT'S A LOT!!!:panic: :o

SaiCmont19
06-03-2008, 02:16 PM
Is it possible the loop didn't start back over in the desert, but at the beginning of the gunslingers life?
Perhaps King just put the desert scene in there to make the point that yes, he still is on the same path, but this time somethings different about him (the fact that he picked up the horn).
Maybe that's supposed to give readers hope that whatever inspired Roland to pick up the horn has made it his last trip around the cycle?

John_and_Yoko
06-03-2008, 02:19 PM
Is it possible the loop didn't start back over in the desert, but at the beginning of the gunslingers life?
Perhaps King just put the desert scene in there to make the point that yes, he still is on the same path, but this time somethings different about him (the fact that he picked up the horn).
Maybe that's supposed to give readers hope that whatever inspired Roland to pick up the horn has made it his last trip around the cycle?

I'd like to believe that, but the only problem is what about the dizzy spell he gets while he's in the desert (also referenced in the first volume)? That seems to indicate the loop starts again at that exact point....

razz
06-03-2008, 02:20 PM
no they mentioned something about how it wasn't far enough to make much of a difference. I don't know why i mention king in plural

Matt
06-03-2008, 02:36 PM
Is it possible the loop didn't start back over in the desert, but at the beginning of the gunslingers life?
Perhaps King just put the desert scene in there to make the point that yes, he still is on the same path, but this time somethings different about him (the fact that he picked up the horn).
Maybe that's supposed to give readers hope that whatever inspired Roland to pick up the horn has made it his last trip around the cycle?

I like this idea and I think it could fit even with the dizziness at the beginning.

That could be attributed to Gan allowing us to join the story right there.

SaiCmont19
06-03-2008, 02:40 PM
In the book it states he picked it up at the battle himself..

"...then touched the horn that rode on his belt behind the gun on his right hip. The ancient brass horn had once been blown by Arthur Eld himself, or so the story did say. Roland had given it to Cuthbert Allgood at Jericho Hill, and when Cuthbert fell, Roland had paused just long enough to pick it up again, knocking the deathdust of that place from its throat.
This is your sigul whispered the fading voice that bore with it the dusk-sweet scent of roses, the scent of a home on a summer evening- O lost! - a stone, a rose, an unfound door; a stone, a rose, a door.
This is your promise that things may be different, Roland- that there may yet be rest. Even salvation.
A pause, and then : If you stand. If you are true...."

razz
06-03-2008, 02:41 PM
I believe he is changed. And for the change to be real he had to do it himself.

That doesn't mean that it couldn't be a gift from Gan. Why else would Gan give it to him if he didn't earn it somehow? Doesn't the word itself imply reciprocity, cause and effect?

i clarify that comment with a Dw quote.

"People assume time is a strict progression of cause to effect, when in fact from a non-linear, non-subjective view, it's more like a big ball of wibbley-wobbley... timey-wimey...stuff.

SaiCmont19
06-03-2008, 03:05 PM
ball[/I] of wibbley-wobbley... timey-wimey...stuff.

Very nice point

obscurejude
06-03-2008, 05:35 PM
I believe he is changed. And for the change to be real he had to do it himself.

That doesn't mean that it couldn't be a gift from Gan. Why else would Gan give it to him if he didn't earn it somehow? Doesn't the word itself imply reciprocity, cause and effect?

i clarify that comment with a Dw quote.

"People assume time is a strict progression of cause to effect, when in fact from a non-linear, non-subjective view, it's more like a big ball of wibbley-wobbley... timey-wimey...stuff.

You didn't clarify a damn thing, at least not for me.

MonteGss
06-03-2008, 05:37 PM
Me neither.

razz
06-03-2008, 05:39 PM
Gah! wibbley-wobbley, timey-wimey...

Ves'Ka Gan
06-03-2008, 05:39 PM
I think what Razz meant to say is that time doesn't neccesarily have to be a straight line. It can fold over on itself, or run in a circle.

razz
06-03-2008, 05:40 PM
:couple:EXACTLY!

obscurejude
06-03-2008, 05:41 PM
I think what Razz meant to say is that time doesn't neccesarily have to be a straight line. It can fold over on itself, or run in a circle.

That still doesn't have anything to do with my quote. I was referring to Gan and his ability to give or not. I don't mind him saying random stuff, he just shouldn't quote me in the process unless he's paying attention.

razz
06-03-2008, 05:45 PM
but...but...i don't LIKE to pay attention...

alinda
06-03-2008, 05:46 PM
"We all are one...we are the same person
da da dum da dum da dum! "

Bob Marley

obscurejude
06-03-2008, 05:47 PM
but...but...i don't LIKE to pay attention...

Don't Quote Me.

razz
06-03-2008, 05:51 PM
but...but...i didn't KNOW i was quoting you...

alinda
06-03-2008, 06:01 PM
but...but...i voted gas station..:clap: .

The Lady of Shadows
06-03-2008, 06:53 PM
is it me or do people now seem to be automatically assuming that just because the number 19 has importance in the story (granted an almost talismanic importance) that this is roland's 19th loop. why not 6 loops (as in june)? why not 99 loops (as in the year)? why not 1999 loops (again as in the year)?

anyway, i think roland was allowed to pick up the horn. each time, each loop, he gets closer in his progression to what? redemption? surely not perfection. i think something (maybe the voice of the turtle) whispered to him to remember to pick it up so that this time something would be different. i don't think it's the final change that will be needed to end his looping though. it's not that easy. not for him, not for any of us.

oh, sam catoe posted in the "can our dear gunslinger...at all?" thread that roland needed not just the horn but both of his guns and that just floored me. if you haven't been keeping up with that thread it's here. (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=2472)

Letti
06-06-2008, 11:05 PM
I agree that he picked it up, turtlesong but I don't think he needed any help or whisper or anything like that to do it. He is changing and step by step he can pay attention for the really important things and feelings in his life.
My two cents. :)

wildfire1290
06-09-2008, 12:30 AM
SaiCmont, and or everyone else. Forgive me big for asking, but where was your quote from? I don't seem to remember it at all :'(

PixelJuice
06-09-2008, 03:52 AM
Thank you - the majority of this thread has run through my crazy making logic looped brain after I finished the DT books the first time.

But... (and forgive a newbie if there is a thread elsewhere on this) - what difference does having the horn make?

I have several theories (usually based on misguided "Aha!" moments upon re-reading the books) but I'd love to hear what other people think.

theBeamisHome
06-09-2008, 04:06 AM
is it me or do people now seem to be automatically assuming that just because the number 19 has importance in the story (granted an almost talismanic importance) that this is roland's 19th loop. why not 6 loops (as in june)? why not 99 loops (as in the year)? why not 1999 loops (again as in the year)?

anyway, i think roland was allowed to pick up the horn. each time, each loop, he gets closer in his progression to what? redemption? surely not perfection. i think something (maybe the voice of the turtle) whispered to him to remember to pick it up so that this time something would be different. i don't think it's the final change that will be needed to end his looping though. it's not that easy. not for him, not for any of us.

oh, sam catoe posted in the "can our dear gunslinger...at all?" thread that roland needed not just the horn but both of his guns and that just floored me. if you haven't been keeping up with that thread it's here. (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=2472)

I agree... maybe instead of this being his 19th loop maybe he only had 19 left. Also the quote that SaiCmont posted is from the end of DT 7. I just finished reading it and I remember it quite well. So in that case the loop changes the past that's before the desert that Roland keeps ending up in.

But..... at the same time it was a gift from Gan for getting something right, I think. I mean it has to be if he has it after the Tower AND after Jericho Hill... does that make sense?

ManOfWesternesse
06-09-2008, 04:08 AM
....what difference does having the horn make?
Personally, I think the horn is mostly just a symbol that this cycle is different. Yes, he has to wind it as he approaches the Tower, and that will no doubt be important too, but yes, mostly it's the symbolic thing for me.

Letti
06-09-2008, 04:47 AM
....what difference does having the horn make?
Personally, I think the horn is mostly just a symbol that this cycle is different. Yes, he has to wind it as he approaches the Tower, and that will no doubt be important too, but yes, mostly it's the symbolic thing for me.

I absolutely agree with Brian.
The horn itself doesn't make any difference. It's just an object. The fact that Roland has it (the way I see it the fact that he picked it up this time) makes a big one.

SaiCmont19
06-16-2008, 01:38 PM
I agree with Lettie that the horn itself is insignificant, but the way Roland must have changed for him to have picked it up makes a huge difference.

If picking up the horn could be considered Roland having emotional attachments, what would the two guns represent if he had to have those at the tower as well?
Remembering the face of his father?

Brice
06-16-2008, 01:46 PM
Really Gan just gives the horn back to Roland in each loop at random intervals just to fuck with his head.

ladysai
06-16-2008, 07:33 PM
And Brice throws out random theories to fuck with our heads!
:lol:

Brice
06-17-2008, 05:26 AM
:lol: No, my brain just doesn't have a filter. I tend to say whatever I think. :D

obscurejude
06-17-2008, 08:49 PM
Really Gan just gives the horn back to Roland in each loop at random intervals just to fuck with his head.

I honestly think this might be closer to the truth than anything else posted in this thread.

Depren
07-28-2008, 10:22 AM
Just a quick thought. What if the horn was up at the top before the door everytime he has been there, and this one time he picks it up before he gets thrown back out into the desert because he has changed somewhat or something. Which means he is on his way to salvation, lol not really sure if that makes sense though

Brainslinger
07-29-2008, 03:17 AM
Just a quick thought. What if the horn was up at the top before the door everytime he has been there, and this one time he picks it up before he gets thrown back out into the desert because he has changed somewhat or something. Which means he is on his way to salvation, lol not really sure if that makes sense though

It's a new idea, but I think they would have mentioned if he had done that. Besides, Roland's attention was entirely on the last door at that point, wondering where it led, start with then the shock when he found out and realized what is going to happen and has been happening again and again.

pathoftheturtle
07-30-2008, 12:40 PM
He could have picked it up from one of the floors below. Perhaps from that one which represented whatever day it was that his father had first given it to him to carry.

Each room has one memento of his history, remember? Maybe that’s the Tower’s way of offering a choice to him of how to change the past. It fits, I’d say, because I think that what Roland in the first place is ultimately looking for is consolation for the tragedies in life, such as those of which he has had first-hand experience.

In Hinduism, “karma” means “your own doing,” a doctrine which holds that personal responsibility is absolute. Of course, the major version of this teaching is based on pantheism, stating, for example, that Roland can not excuse himself from his mother’s death by pointing to Rhea’s trickery, because Rhea is just another incarnation of Roland. His mother is, too, however, this argument goes, so there’s no tragedy since she’d have knocked, if dying that way had not been her karma. I don’t believe that we must go that far, however, in order to maintain the existence of responsibility in every situation.

Already this discussion has approached the issue: if others are real and have their own free will, then how can I control everything that happens? I cannot be responsible for things I don’t control, can I?

Roland worries that ka might be out of order, that he and his world are doomed to get snakes when they ask for fish. If he’s to be held responsible, he wants to take responsibility. If he is able to control these things by any means at all, he will not rest until it is secured. And in the end, the Tower does show responsiveness in that he’s granted some recourse. Ka can be changed, even if the gain is small when measured by the effort required.

The way of changing it is also ka, I wot, though. After all, destiny and self-determination co-exist.

Roland will not say, “To Hell with the Tower,” as the CK does, before he understands it. He struggles in faith to maintain the structure so that he can be reassured that it is for the best. Gan doesn’t need a face-to-face, however; He knows all that Roland might ask, and all that Roland would say.
A voice whispered from above him: It would have been the work of three seconds to bend and pick it up. Even in the smoke and the death. Three seconds. Time, Roland – it always comes back to that. That was, he thought, the voice of the Beam – the one they had saved. If it spoke out of gratitude it could have saved its breath, for what good were such words to him now? He remembered a line from Browning’s poem: One taste of the old times sets all to rights.Time. One of the forces held stable by the Beams. I think the spirit of this one, the guardian, could let slip into Roland’s world three seconds, for a little taste of gratitude to him who chose to sacrifice and risk his life in hopes that he could make a difference.

Gasher80
09-28-2008, 03:54 PM
hi, all. first post here. just finished reading the series last night. have enjoyed reading your posts today and decided to join up.

on topic: to me it doesn't make sense to simply say "gan gave him the horn." when he looks down at the horn, he will remember that he picked it up when his friend cuthbert fell. i don't see much sense in saying that gan simply gives him the horn and falsifies his memory of what happened that day on Jericho Hill. events in the past are in motion so by virtue of the fact he has it, to me means that he picked it up.

but if we get into the literal of whether or not he actually picked it up or gan just gave it to him and falsified his memory, i think we overlook what is important about him having the horn for this next loop.

everytime he touches that horn, everytime he readjusts his gunna, he'll think about what it meant to lose a friend that day. he'll remember himself pausing his hell-bent march in order to do something that was equally, if not more, important. imo, this is gan's way of leaving him a reminder in the next loop of what gan thinks is important about a journey (since Roland won't be able to remember the admonition "it would have taken 3 seconds").

Brainslinger
09-28-2008, 04:38 PM
I like that. Just the fact he has the horn and the reminder of the surrounding events could influence is future decisions and ways his interaction with people. One more step towards the top room as it were. (Or to turning aside, whatever is best. I think he'll always be Tower-pent in one way or another though.)

Gasher80
09-28-2008, 05:05 PM
I think he'll always be Tower-pent in one way or another though.

me, too. i think patrick danville's picture of him trapped in the top of the tower makes sense in this light.

Kingfanatic260
10-16-2008, 06:17 PM
The city of Lud in DT 3. Which city is that in our world? What is the significance of Roland having the horn at the end of DT 7? Is having the horn really going to save his soul? Thanks for any helpful input. I have many more questions that I need to ask.

Kingfanatic260
10-16-2008, 06:48 PM
Is the Crimson King supposedly the devil himself?

Unfound One
10-16-2008, 06:52 PM
Hey Kingfanatic - a lot of your questions have been discussed at length in the different forums of the board. Try searching (above on the control bar) for some of the topics you'd like to talk about - I'm sure that there's already some great discussions going on that you could contribute to if you like.

Here's (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/forumdisplay.php?f=19) a good starting place with some general discussion questions.

Welcome to the site! :rose:

sarah
10-17-2008, 06:43 AM
Hi Kingfanatic260 Welcome to the site.


I'm going to merge move this thread to help answer your questions a bit better.

Kingfanatic260
10-17-2008, 08:30 PM
I appreciate the help. I'm trying to get used to the site.

Letti
10-17-2008, 11:25 PM
I appreciate the help. I'm trying to get used to the site.

Our pleasure. When you get to know it (it doesn't take long) you will feel home here. :rose:

Kingfanatic260
10-18-2008, 09:38 AM
Yeah I am really enjoying it already. A lot of good insight on this site.

mystima
10-27-2008, 11:41 PM
one of the things that i remember from all the dt books including the other written works assosiated (sp) with the series is that the dark tower has many levels. that this next loop he is thrust into is the next level. that is something to think about.

Ste Letto
11-28-2008, 02:08 PM
The Horn is hugely significant.

The Horn is Roland's key to ending his quest, instead of looping back and starting again.

Stooping to collect the horn at Jericho Hill is like remembering, or taking time to honour all that was once glorious about Gilead and the world; it honours loyalty and civilisation at a time of chaos and anarchy. Roland collecting the horn is like Roland remembering and honouring all that he and the line of Gunslingers, the House of Eld represents.

That Roland collected the horn at a point prior to his return to the story is simply a pointer to the idea of multiple paths/universes that is hinted at throughout DT.

We cannot seperate Roland's spiritual growth from the markers of that growth.

darktowerbondsman
01-10-2009, 07:35 AM
Hello Fellow Tower Fans,

I've never posted to your site before, in fact I'm just taking it all in for the first time this morning. I'd like to offer my interpretation of King's story here as no one else seems to share my thoughts.

I'm sorry if I beat around the bush a bit but I promise this will end up being about the Horn.

Please keep in mind I just discovered these books last year. I was just reading "The Gunslinger" on the 4th of July, and last night I finally (whew!) finished "The Dark Tower VII". It was recommoned to me (and I did) to pepper in "The Stand", "Salem's Lot", and "The Talisman", all before the last of the series.

Robert Browning's poem is very key here as well, and while it can be a chore to digest poetry for some people, I think King used this as a map to his story the whole way through. So you almost need to read it once.

What a set of books, I'm almost speechless.

I've seen a lot of people focus on how many loose ends King leaves over the course of the books. For the amount of subject matter present in all these books I think he did as best he could, after all, this story was like a living thing that had to change over the years just as I'm sure the writer himself did. Despite all the titles of all these books, King's focus (and moral tale) was of Roland from beginning to end, as many stories have a tradition of ending where they started.

Because of this focus, and his obvious lone destiny with the Tower at the end (If the Crimson King only knew!), I think we can catch some clues that King has left for us to find.

Roland needs a Key for the Tower right? And it's an artifact of Eld. Everyone assumes it's Roland's Gun, it's mythical barrel made with the metal of Arthur Eld's sword Excaliber itself... but... it's not Excaliber itself.

Fantastical? Sure! Awesome? Hell yeah? Best damn gun in any universe? I'd set my watch and warrent by it. Tower Key... no. It's been changed, alterered, given a whole new life in the killing chambers of line after line of gunslingers. Not just that but it's a fragment. Think past Roland's guns back to the first few books, in Gilead's day I'm sure there were more than just two of these guns. I'm no master of Metallurgy, but the inside of a gun barrel isn't THAT much metal. One giant mythical sword melted down may supply as many as 20 guns with near holy properties.

Now think of his other gun left with Susannah, this is a good clue. When she finally get's beyond the door it's trash, used up... wet. It's hard but despite the stories behind that gun, it's tossed in the waste basket.

So the gun is not the Key, but the Tower opens for him, why? Because Roland and the Tower are Destiny (Ka). He is meant for the Tower and the Tower is meant for him, it has to open. This is where he and he alone must go time after time after time "delah" (Roland shows this with deja`vu), it's a story of this man's moral character as well as being a character in a book. As in the "Talisman", Roland is Stephen King's Twinner of another world, in other worlds they share a HUGE link. As the writer has grown, so has he made Roland grow as a person.

The Horn is a gift from Gan like it or not. Roland has made this journey so many times, and is so very tired. But this last time he shared his journey with us his readers, and this time... this time he did everything the right way... so why repeat it again?!? Well, Roland's story is not like a video game, it's personal growth and emotional development, not do this, do that quests. In this cycle for the first time I'm sure many things happened, like him truely loving his family, and other touchy stuff do ya ken it?

Problem is his story is a broken Paradox. No matter that he got it right at the end of our story, he had not the Key to the door, and thus back to the desert he went to repeat the journey once more. The Horn of Eld, being a true artifact of Arthur Eld is the real Key. But not the key to the Tower, for it opens anyways, but the true key to the Gunslinger's door at the top, the one marked "Roland".

We know time is stretched out and generally messed up in this story, but Roland apparently gains near 1000 years while wandering the desert in this tale but seems not to notice it. I think this is the last huge clue King gave us long ago and he ties in here, this is like a "flex time" where he starts over so many times but the world keeps moving on. Destiny keeps him pumping and makes him whole every time, but it's in the damn desert, way to late to get the Horn back in his possession.

That's why I think Gan rewarded him with the Horn. This time Gan wants him to repeat process with the horn at his side, so he may finally go to the clearing at the end of his path when he gets to the top this final time.

Okay that's a lot to spit out and I tend to jabber, so chew on those thoughts and see if they feel right.

The King of Kings
01-10-2009, 06:21 PM
Excellent analysis.

The only problem I have with that is, Stephen has always emphasized that it's not the ending that matters -- it's the story.

I think what's missing from Roland is some sort of development (although I have no clue what that is because I thought he grew light years from Book 1 to Book 7 and was totally deserving of the "clearing" or at least a mini-vacation)

I think the horn was given to him to remind him of Cuthbert and Alain. Maybe the next time he goes through his purse that he carries around, he'll see the horn and he will be reminded about his past tet, love, and trust and maybe next time won't be so apt to [insert Gan's problem here].

I think Gan making it necessary for one to have the horn before you can enter the top room would sort of cheapen the story a bit.

That's not saying however that you can't be right, because everything you say fits 100% I think.

Bumbler19
01-22-2009, 01:46 AM
well... the way i see it... it is both a present from Gan, and also he picked it up himself... i mean... with how loose reality is, especially when counting the force of Gan/TDT, reality could have been changed so that he actually picked it up instead of leaving it behind originally.

EdwardDean1999
01-25-2009, 07:32 PM
I see the horns replacement as a sign of an alternate history for Roland. To us readers it looks like Roland stepped through a door and his horn magically reappears whole. Now I can't quote the text specifically but I was of the impression that stepping through the threshold Roland has this amnesiac event erasing his memory of everything between the desert and the tower. All that's left is deja vu. Remember Roland does not react to the horn's appearance. We the readers do.

What if Roland went back to his birth and relived his life with certain subconscious knowledge? He thinks it's KA that tells him to pick up the horn at Jericho Hill this time around but it's really his subconscious. In some ways I think the only significance of SK pooping Roland back into the desert is because that's where it started for the readers. Roland stumbles and has the sense of deja vu. And then he follows Flagg

pathoftheturtle
02-02-2009, 09:33 AM
Hey, Eddie! Long time no see. :) Hope you're doing well, sai.
...I think what's missing from Roland is some sort of development (although I have no clue what that is because I thought he grew light years from Book 1 to Book 7 and was totally deserving of the "clearing" or at least a mini-vacation)......Which raises questions about the moral order of the universe. Although the TDT multiverse has a loose reality, we assume that it is absolutely strict in terms of moral perfection. Before any of us can give a reasonable answer to how the reality engine works, I think we have to face the issue of whether it actually does.

I've long felt that a cosmos which fails to exclude some realities must be a morally neutral (or basically evil) one.

Can we be certain that good behavior is rewarded in a given world to the degree that we can safely conclude that one who has not entirely succeeded must be at fault somehow?

It all runs directly to the matter of free will: Does Roland have any if the Horn represents Gan's direction? Or, if Roland makes his own ka, on the other hand, then what does the Horn signify? (Betcha thought I was going off-topic, lol.)

Bumbler19
02-02-2009, 11:57 AM
It all runs directly to the matter of free will: Does Roland have any if the Horn represents Gan's direction? Or, if Roland makes his own ka, on the other hand, then what does the Horn signify? (Betcha thought I was going off-topic, lol.)

Who says anyone has free will in the multi-verse? This is Towericism/Ganicism, The concept of Free Will is a concept placed by christianity, not Gan, not ka. Even when you go against ka, you still follow it.

I think the Horn does signify that at least this time around it will be different. at least in some way shape or form... since there was such a huge beef about the horn right before the coda and also during the coda.

Regarding the horn signifying a loss of free will, I don't think it really it signifies a loss exactly... more like a hint of how much free will Roland has always had. I think a lot of things that happen throughout the series, roland does have the power to choose, the beginning and ends and other certain key points will always happen and Roland has no free will over those matters.

Brainslinger
02-05-2009, 11:52 AM
I don't think the horn signifies a loss of free will on the part of Roland. I think it signifies his reclaiming part of his nature that he had lost in the start of the cycle, and then regained as he grew closer to his ka mates. Close enough even, that he was willing to give up his own life, and the Tower, than risk losing Jake a second time. (Although it didn't work out that way due to his cranky hip.)

He reclaimed the positive side of being a gunslinger. What is the horn used for? To create a rallying call. It's a symbol that he needs others, and that he is a team-member and leader of men. Unfortunately he had lost the sigul of this long ago at Jericho hill, and had to enter the Tower using the sigul of destruction, the gun. But as he got some things right, he was rewarded the next time around.

I don't think the next loop will necessarily be the last though.

Merlin1958
02-05-2009, 01:08 PM
I don't think the horn signifies a loss of free will on the part of Roland. I think it signifies his reclaiming part of his nature that he had lost in the start of the cycle, and then regained as he grew closer to his ka mates. Close enough even, that he was willing to give up his own life, and the Tower, than risk losing Jake a second time. (Although it didn't work out that way due to his cranky hip.)

He reclaimed the positive side of being a gunslinger. What is the horn used for? To create a rallying call. It's a symbol that he needs others, and that he is a team-member and leader of men. Unfortunately he had lost the sigul of this long ago at Jericho hill, and had to enter the Tower using the sigul of destruction, the gun. But as he got some things right, he was rewarded the next time around.

I don't think the next loop will necessarily be the last though.

That was pretty darn insightful and I would definitely agree with the bulk of your interpetation except, I believe #20 would be the last. What else, in ur opinion does he need to fix? Assuming that as a result of recieving the horn he no longer makes the same mistakes in 20 as he did in 19 i.e. Dropping Jake
etc. (which I always kinda thought he attoned for by re-drawing jake from the Mansion and saving him from Mort. That sort of erased the drop in the first place. Time paradoxes make my brain hurt lol)

EdwardDean1999
02-05-2009, 03:21 PM
That was pretty darn insightful and I would definitely agree with the bulk of your interpetation except, I believe #20 would be the last. What else, in ur opinion does he need to fix? Assuming that as a result of recieving the horn he no longer makes the same mistakes in 20 as he did in 19 i.e. Dropping Jake
etc. (which I always kinda thought he attoned for by re-drawing jake from the Mansion and saving him from Mort. That sort of erased the drop in the first place. Time paradoxes make my brain hurt lol)

I don't think Roland loops for any purpose other than to serve the vitality of the beam/tower/multiverse. I do not purposely think there is an end, even if Roland makes it all the way through a "loop" without mistakes. He still needs to serve Ka. Because Ka is a wheel and it rolls forever. I think Roland and his royal blood are what make that wheel move.

What else does he need to fix? The tower's failing health. And that I feel will never be possible as an ultimate outcome. Roland will loop forever, world without end, amen :rose:

Brainslinger
02-06-2009, 08:49 AM
That was pretty darn insightful

Cheers!


and I would definitely agree with the bulk of your interpetation except, I believe #20 would be the last. What else, in ur opinion does he need to fix? Assuming that as a result of receiving the horn he no longer makes the same mistakes in 20 as he did in 19 i.e. Dropping Jake
etc. (which I always kinda thought he atoned for by re-drawing jake from the Mansion and saving him from Mort. That sort of erased the drop in the first place. Time paradoxes make my brain hurt lol)

I'm not sure, but I think the stuff he needs to fix will be more of the same. What I mean by that is that whilst he has progressed in understanding his need for others (and not just as tools to reach the Tower as seems to be the case in the first two books, but their importance as people and friends), I think it is only by degrees. I think preventing Jake from falling could well be part of that as you suggested. And just seeing the importance of the world(s) itself and the 'Right here and now'(to quote a furry friend from another book). Of course, since his memory of the previous loop has gone, there is no guarantee that he won't repeat the same mistakes but I like to think he brings something over even if it is only subconscious.

I'm particularly struck by that scene in New York's 'Dark Tower' (I forget the name now.- the one that houses and protects the Rose) where it becomes clear that his main objective in saving the Tower is so that he can climb it. That's his primary objective, saving the worlds is a means to that end not the end in itself. To be fair, I don't think this means that he doesn't care about the worlds. I think he still would save them anyway if he could, but his priorities are still rather askew.

This happened after the death of Jake, and it shows that even now he is very focused on the end rather than the journey. The interesting thing is, that when he acts without thinking, it's then that he often or not does the right thing. When he attempted to save King, taking Jake's place and sacrificing himself and his ultimate goal at the Tower, he did it without thinking. However as far as his conscious mind is concerned, it's all the Tower. The ending, rather than the journey. (I might have phrased that poorly.)

I'm not one of those who thinks he should forsake the Tower, no. I think it will always be part of his ka, but he still needs to adapt his priorities along the way. As I said he's started to do that, it's just a matter of doing more. The very fact he picked up the horn this time* shows that he is indeed taking time to see what's important in the here and now, rather than just dashing ahead at any cost.

I'm particularly reminded of the end of Drawing of the Three, when Roland himself speculates about whether it was worth it to gain the Tower if he loses his soul along the way.

*Some speculate that he didn't pick up the horn since he always returns to the desert, that the horn was a gift from Gan. I think it's still possible for him to return to the desert, AND that his past can be altered taking into account his change in character, but regardless, as far as his memory is concerned, he picked up the horn. Possibly more importantly, he TOOK THE TIME to pick up the horn.

Chap
02-06-2009, 06:37 PM
is it me or do people now seem to be automatically assuming that just because the number 19 has importance in the story (granted an almost talismanic importance) that this is roland's 19th loop. why not 6 loops (as in june)? why not 99 loops (as in the year)? why not 1999 loops (again as in the year)?

I agree. If this is the "19th" loop because all the numbers point to that, then what about the 1st loop? Did most characters have names with one letter? did they visit the year 0199? Doesn't make sense :P

Was it a gift/reward from Gan?
The arguments in this thread makes it looks like a reward is something negative, that Roland haven't evolved because of this. But aren't all rewards given to you because you deserve it?
Like if you get a good education and then later get a good job because of that education. The job is then a reward for your hard work in the past. It's not given to you, you earned it. Just as Roland might have earned the horn by evolving in this loop/spiral.

I think the past is in motion in his world, and it has either changed to a past where Rolands growth of character has the "intuition" to pick up the horn, even though it may seem insignificant. - or, if we believe in "multiverses", for every choice made there is a different world where the choice is made differently (if you go left at a crossroad in one world, you go right in another, creating delah futures and posibilities), so he's now in the world where he did pick up the horn.

I just confused myself :orely:


anyway, I think the horn is important to reaching the tower and not going back once you're at the top. like someone said it can represent the positive where the guns are the negative, balance may be key.
And about the second gun like turtlesong said: I think he needed that one too in order to get it right. The guns grants access to the tower. Bring one gun and you'll have to do it over again, bring both (and the horn?) and you'll... do whatever is supposed to be done on the top.
I think that in order to have both guns, none of the Ka-tet must die, Susannah must not feel grief because of Eddies and Jakes death, so she won't bail on Roland (with the gun) towards the end.
I also think the horn is significant to Jake, but won't go into that here :ninja:

Darkthoughts
02-07-2009, 12:36 PM
I finally got around to voting in the poll. After much consideration between "he picked it up himself" and "Gan gave it to him", I went for the latter.
I understand that, for whatever reason, Roland needs to pick up the horn at Jericho Hill - but as I think that he never physically goes back to/loops to/does over the events there (because the loop always starts from the desert) the horn is given to Roland by Gan to signify that he has learnt something about compassion on his previous loop (the story we read). The point of Gan doing that would be to influence Roland's memory, to have him embark on this next loop with the memory of being a more emotional, human person than he was previously.

jayson
02-07-2009, 12:54 PM
is it me or do people now seem to be automatically assuming that just because the number 19 has importance in the story (granted an almost talismanic importance) that this is roland's 19th loop. why not 6 loops (as in june)? why not 99 loops (as in the year)? why not 1999 loops (again as in the year)?

I agree. If this is the "19th" loop because all the numbers point to that, then what about the 1st loop? Did most characters have names with one letter? did they visit the year 0199? Doesn't make sense :P

Exactly. If nothing else tells you that, how about the Tower itself? On Loop #1, did the Tower consist of a staircase with one single stair between landings? :evil: I don't subscribe to the "this is loop #19" theory.


(because the loop always starts from the desert)

I still don't necessarily believe that either. Nothing to make me think every loop starts there. Just the one we read about.

Merlin1958
02-07-2009, 01:47 PM
That was pretty darn insightful

Cheers!


and I would definitely agree with the bulk of your interpetation except, I believe #20 would be the last. What else, in ur opinion does he need to fix? Assuming that as a result of receiving the horn he no longer makes the same mistakes in 20 as he did in 19 i.e. Dropping Jake
etc. (which I always kinda thought he atoned for by re-drawing jake from the Mansion and saving him from Mort. That sort of erased the drop in the first place. Time paradoxes make my brain hurt lol)

I'm not sure, but I think the stuff he needs to fix will be more of the same. What I mean by that is that whilst he has progressed in understanding his need for others (and not just as tools to reach the Tower as seems to be the case in the first two books, but their importance as people and friends), I think it is only by degrees. I think preventing Jake from falling could well be part of that as you suggested. And just seeing the importance of the world(s) itself and the 'Right here and now'(to quote a furry friend from another book). Of course, since his memory of the previous loop has gone, there is no guarantee that he won't repeat the same mistakes but I like to think he brings something over even if it is only subconscious.

I'm particularly struck by that scene in New York's 'Dark Tower' (I forget the name now.- the one that houses and protects the Rose) where it becomes clear that his main objective in saving the Tower is so that he can climb it. That's his primary objective, saving the worlds is a means to that end not the end in itself. To be fair, I don't think this means that he doesn't care about the worlds. I think he still would save them anyway if he could, but his priorities are still rather askew.

This happened after the death of Jake, and it shows that even now he is very focused on the end rather than the journey. The interesting thing is, that when he acts without thinking, it's then that he often or not does the right thing. When he attempted to save King, taking Jake's place and sacrificing himself and his ultimate goal at the Tower, he did it without thinking. However as far as his conscious mind is concerned, it's all the Tower. The ending, rather than the journey. (I might have phrased that poorly.)

I'm not one of those who thinks he should forsake the Tower, no. I think it will always be part of his ka, but he still needs to adapt his priorities along the way. As I said he's started to do that, it's just a matter of doing more. The very fact he picked up the horn this time* shows that he is indeed taking time to see what's important in the here and now, rather than just dashing ahead at any cost.

I'm particularly reminded of the end of Drawing of the Three, when Roland himself speculates about whether it was worth it to gain the Tower if he loses his soul along the way.

*Some speculate that he didn't pick up the horn since he always returns to the desert, that the horn was a gift from Gan. I think it's still possible for him to return to the desert, AND that his past can be altered taking into account his change in character, but regardless, as far as his memory is concerned, he picked up the horn. Possibly more importantly, he TOOK THE TIME to pick up the horn.


Good thoughts!!

Got me thinking though, and I'm sure someone else has posted thoughts along this line before but, Perhaps Roland is a "Symbol" for all mankind throughout the multi-verse (perhaps especially the "Keystone Earth")? The Tower a symbol of Gan (God, Etc) and Roland's eternal quest an example of the "free will" we all have? The beams, which hold the worlds together , a reflection of the collective right/wrong, chaotic/ordered choices that all Mankind (and womankind) make. That would make Roland recieving the horn a sign of general progress and a symbol of Man evolving perhaps, to the next level of the Tower. Then maybe the loops are not counted as actual loops but, as a progression through the levels of the Tower (i.e. Insomnia in general, the steps in the tower and the levels therein).

This thought process strikes me as being true in the case of SK/Roland, King being part of Mankind and therefore representative of it. So in a sense, Roland and the "Tower Realm" are somewhat "Outside of reality" and are only representative of the choices that Man as a species makes. In that case, Roland would "loop" forever (As mentioned in a post above), as Man either progresses or digresses through the levels of the tower. That would also help to explain why he never remembers the previous loops, he doesn't truly act of his own accord (Ka being the will/state of Mankind), and according to the influences our society as whole, represented by the Ka-Tet as well as other significant "followers of the White" and the Crimson King/Flagg and others of chaos. Who are all affecting Roland's "choices".

Does any of that make sense to anyone else out there?:orely::orely:

Course I could be completely nuts as well!!!:excited::excited:

Darkthoughts
02-07-2009, 02:31 PM
Made sense to me :thumbsup: I just don't like to think of him looping forever - it seems wrong of the White to do that somehow.

Jayson, I can't say I rightly know why I think this, but I do think the loop always starts in the desert.

jayson
02-07-2009, 03:36 PM
Fair enough. It very well could. :)

MonteGss
02-07-2009, 03:40 PM
I for one believe he will always begin at the desert. It is explained why he goes back to that point in Book 7. I realize it does not say he will begin there EVERY time, that is just what I think. (though i'm not really decided whether the horn is significant or if the loops are endless.)

Merlin1958
02-10-2009, 07:41 AM
I for one believe he will always begin at the desert. It is explained why he goes back to that point in Book 7. I realize it does not say he will begin there EVERY time, that is just what I think. (though i'm not really decided whether the horn is significant or if the loops are endless.)

Maybe someone could explain in a little more detail to me exactly why they would think the loop does not start in the Desert each time?

To me it seems to be non-interpative given the "Man in Black Fled....." last line". It never even occurred to me otherwise. Seemed SK was pretty clear on that point at least, while much else was left to interpetation.

Then again, I do tend to be "linnear" in my thinking so, I'd love to hear some alternative thoughts on this.


P.S. To Dark Thoughts: Just a technicality but I don't think specific "memories" are added to Roland so much as caliber (?) to his character, his "make-up" if you will.

jayson
02-10-2009, 09:31 AM
Maybe someone could explain in a little more detail to me exactly why they would think the loop does not start in the Desert each time?

Basically, what we know from the last line being the same as the first line is that the next loop begins in the desert. That's all we really know for a fact. Now I concede that it's perfectly reasonable to speculate that this is the starting point for every loop, but I don't know that's it's evidence that this is the case. In short, I think it's open to speculation because the only loop we really know about is the one we read about and we know where the next one starts, but that's all we know. It allows speculation to rule the day (which I think is a strong point of the series, there is no "right" answer).

MonteGss
02-10-2009, 09:54 AM
How many times had he climbed these stairs only to find himself peeled back, curved back, turned back? Not to the beginning (when things might have been changed and time's curse lifted), but to that moment in the Mohaine Desert when he had finally understood that his thoughtless, questionless quest would ultimately succeed?

If this doesn't tell us why it is always the desert, then I don't know what does. :)

jayson
02-10-2009, 10:39 AM
If this doesn't tell us why it is always the desert, then I don't know what does.

I still think it's distinctly possible to eliminate the word "always" from that. Perhaps I am being overly literal in my reading of it, but it suggests that it's been many times but not specifically every time. The possibility remains open.

MonteGss
02-10-2009, 10:56 AM
If this doesn't tell us why it is always the desert, then I don't know what does.

I still think it's distinctly possible to eliminate the word "always" from that. Perhaps I am being overly literal in my reading of it, but it suggests that it's been many times but not specifically every time. The possibility remains open.

I guess I disagree with you to an extent, my friend. I think the above quote tells us that it is not possible for him to begin his loop at any point prior to the desert. So, the only other option that I see is for a loop to begin after the desert, which for me, doesn't make much sense.

It is the desert because that's when he knows he will gain the Tower. The desert and the events that follow is the "present" and the events prior to it are only a memory, facts that will not be changed. This is how I see it. :)

jayson
02-10-2009, 10:58 AM
It's certainly possible, probable even, that you are correct, but so long as it's not explicitly clear I consider the alternatives equally valid. :)

MonteGss
02-10-2009, 11:01 AM
:P
:lol:
Stubbornness is Coolness. :cool: :thumbsup:

obscurejude
02-10-2009, 11:07 AM
I still think that the desert loop thing has more to do with King's own personal affinity for the opening lines than it does with any internal logic from the narrative itself. King would never compromise the internal logic for his own ego

Except, of course, entering the story as a character in the form of God. :lol:

MonteGss
02-10-2009, 11:12 AM
I still think that the desert loop thing has more to do with King's own personal affinity for the opening lines than it does with any internal logic from the narrative itself. King would never compromise the internal logic for his own ego

Except, of course, entering the story as a character in the form of God. :lol:

You may be right, jude. But his personal affinity is not part of the story, imo.

jayson
02-10-2009, 11:17 AM
:P
:lol:
Stubbornness is Coolness. :cool: :thumbsup:

That's my motto. :D

stone, rose, unfound door
02-10-2009, 11:51 AM
Horn as gift from Gan or anyone else ruins the whole story for me.

Oh, you have no idea how happy I was to see this line. I started to think that I am the only weirdo again.
Thank you.
Horn as a gift from Gan... no way for me.
For me it's only one acceptable way of the Horn. That Roland himself picked it up. There is only one question left in my mind; how could he do it if he starts his loop from the desert?

Same here. If the horn was a gift from Gan, the whole story would become awfully average so it just doesn't work for me either. I don't think that Roland picked the horn, though. I think of each story as a whole and in my opinion (correct me if it doesn't make sense) Roland started the story with the horn. At the end of the story we've all read, Roland picked up the horn alright, but I think it must have dropped when he drank some water or something. It was always there is what I mean.
So to make it short: we've read a long story in which Roland didn't have the horn because he didn't pick it up at Jericho Hill and we start a whole new story in which Roland picked the horn at Jericho Hill and kept it with him until it fell in the desert and he picked it up again. Is it understandable?

Merlin1958
02-11-2009, 07:47 AM
Maybe someone could explain in a little more detail to me exactly why they would think the loop does not start in the Desert each time?

Basically, what we know from the last line being the same as the first line is that the next loop begins in the desert. That's all we really know for a fact. Now I concede that it's perfectly reasonable to speculate that this is the starting point for every loop, but I don't know that's it's evidence that this is the case. In short, I think it's open to speculation because the only loop we really know about is the one we read about and we know where the next one starts, but that's all we know. It allows speculation to rule the day (which I think is a strong point of the series, there is no "right" answer).

Ahhh, I see what you are saying, I don't agree with it ("Stubborness is Coolness") But at least I see where you are coming from although, by logic we do in fact know that he starts at least 2 loops in the desert 19 & 20.

I would have to agree with your own statement that you are looking at it very "literally" but, hey to each his own and God Bless. We will have to respectfully agree to disagree but, thanks for the response!:thumbsup:

Merlin1958
02-11-2009, 07:56 AM
Horn as gift from Gan or anyone else ruins the whole story for me.

Oh, you have no idea how happy I was to see this line. I started to think that I am the only weirdo again.
Thank you.
Horn as a gift from Gan... no way for me.
For me it's only one acceptable way of the Horn. That Roland himself picked it up. There is only one question left in my mind; how could he do it if he starts his loop from the desert?

Same here. If the horn was a gift from Gan, the whole story would become awfully average so it just doesn't work for me either. I don't think that Roland picked the horn, though. I think of each story as a whole and in my opinion (correct me if it doesn't make sense) Roland started the story with the horn. At the end of the story we've all read, Roland picked up the horn alright, but I think it must have dropped when he drank some water or something. It was always there is what I mean.
So to make it short: we've read a long story in which Roland didn't have the horn because he didn't pick it up at Jericho Hill and we start a whole new story in which Roland picked the horn at Jericho Hill and kept it with him until it fell in the desert and he picked it up again. Is it understandable?

Think you are pretty close. I prefer to think of it as a "gift from Gan" for lack of a better succinct phrase to describe the action. To me it sorta falls under the "Time Travel scenario" again for lack of a better way to say it. I think if any of you saw the movie "Butterfly Effect" and the way they cinematically handled the changes to timelines that that may come closet to what I believe the whole "Gift from Gan" thing represents. He begins each loop in the desert but the memories and therefore I suppose, the events are sort of rushed in as "implants"? or whatever you want to call them. The gist being that Roland and his reality are adjusted according to the flap of the butterflies wings (in this instances the receipt of the horn). Probably explained this very badly but hopefully you all get the idea and maybe even a few share it!! lol lol

jayson
02-11-2009, 08:01 AM
Ahhh, I see what you are saying, I don't agree with it ("Stubborness is Coolness") But at least I see where you are coming from although, by logic we do in fact know that he starts at least 2 loops in the desert 19 & 20.

I would have to agree with your own statement that you are looking at it very "literally" but, hey to each his own and God Bless. We will have to respectfully agree to disagree but, thanks for the response!:thumbsup:

You're welcome. Like I said, I'm not necessarily even tied to that interpretation being 'correct' but then again, I'm not tied to any interpretation being correct. I think they all work.

I would say that I tend not to agree with the theory that the loop we saw is #19. I don't think all the 19's had anything to do with how many times Roland had done this before, instead I think it was solely to point the tet at the date of King's accident. There are some times the number comes up that wouldn't make sense if the number of the loop is always used in that situation. For instance, the number of steps between landings in the Tower. On the first loop, was there really only one step between landings? That'd have been one annoying spiral staircase. Same goes for the number of letters in names. Again though, it is still possible for it to be the 19th loop. Nothing is specifically discounted. :)

MonteGss
02-11-2009, 09:27 AM
One step between each landing...:lol:
Yeah, that would be pretty lame. :lol:

jayson
02-11-2009, 09:29 AM
And I suppose that would also mean the tet would meet people with 1 letter in their name.

"Hile Roland!" said the old man, "I am G of the Calla."

"Oh man," said Eddie. "His name is G. That's like, one letter man! That number is everywhere."

:P

MonteGss
02-11-2009, 09:30 AM
"Everything is just so 1"
:lol:

OK, I'll stop now.

Jean
02-11-2009, 09:52 AM
"Everything is just so 1"
:lol:

OK, I'll stop now.
Which leads us to think that Pythagorus and Descartes - to name just two that first come to mind - were reincarnations of Roland.

(OK, I'll stop now, too)

obscurejude
02-11-2009, 09:57 AM
:lol: Clever Jean. I like that. :)

EdwardDean1999
02-12-2009, 05:13 PM
One step between each landing...:lol:
Yeah, that would be pretty lame. :lol:

Wow. Blows to http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c164/dragonunlimited/Emoticons/poop.gif any notion I had of the loops being numbered. You just blew my mind. Dunno why I never thought of the first loop and what crap-fest that would have been. :blush:"Hey Roland, I just counted my dick and guess how many there are... ONE! Does it mean something?" So it's probably "19" this and "19" that all the way through every loop, huh?

BTW, mods: What does a guy have to do to get his beloved :poop: emoticon? That was my favorite one from the .net days. Sometimes I would just post that on a thread. You know how hard it was to find out there on the interweb?

pathoftheturtle
02-17-2009, 12:37 PM
Who says anyone has free will in the multi-verse? ...Well, whether anyone is saying outright that we do, or not, I think that the question is implicitly at issue in this thread.
...This is Towericism/Ganicism, The concept of Free Will is a concept placed by christianity, not Gan, not ka. Even when you go against ka, you still follow it.

...Free will is particularly important in Western culture, but I don't think it is solely a Christian idea: certainly a number of humanist thinkers have rejected the Christian faith partly because they don't feel that it respects the free will concept as earnestly as it claims to.

If it's true that TDT puts forward "Towericism/Ganicism," then I think it'd be interesting to examine the consistency/validity of that, and to test the truth of its various assertions.
...Regarding the horn signifying a loss of free will, I don't think it really it signifies a loss exactly... more like a hint of how much free will Roland has always had. I think a lot of things that happen throughout the series, roland does have the power to choose, the beginning and ends and other certain key points will always happen and Roland has no free will over those matters.So, how do you feel about that?




...if we believe in "multiverses", for every choice made there is a different world where the choice is made differently (if you go left at a crossroad in one world, you go right in another, creating delah futures and posibilities)...However, if we believe in "nexuses" like the Dark Tower then it may be that not EVERY choice is made in its own world. I mean, isn't that the point of what TMIB says at the end of The Gunslinger? "Does God see the sparrow fall when the sparrow is less than a hydrogen atom? And if so, what must the nature of such a God be?"
The muliverse you describe is pure chaos. Whatever "can" happen does happen. Where, then, are justice and compassion?
...Was it a gift/reward from Gan?
The arguments in this thread makes it looks like a reward is something negative, that Roland haven't evolved because of this. But aren't all rewards given to you because you deserve it?
Like if you get a good education and then later get a good job because of that education. The job is then a reward for your hard work in the past. It's not given to you, you earned it. Just as Roland might have earned the horn by evolving in this loop/spiral. ...Ideally, rewards do go to those that deserve them, but you must have good faith in our educational and employment systems if you're quite confident that it is positive whenever anyone advances. If Gan decided that giving the horn is what Roland's degree of evolution had earned, this begs questions about Gan's judgement.


...I'm particularly struck by that scene in New York's 'Dark Tower' (I forget the name now.- the one that houses and protects the Rose) where it becomes clear that his main objective in saving the Tower is so that he can climb it. That's his primary objective, saving the worlds is a means to that end not the end in itself. To be fair, I don't think this means that he doesn't care about the worlds. I think he still would save them anyway if he could, but his priorities are still rather askew.

..."The Dark Tower is existance." he says. Nancy Deepneau assumes that he should care about the worlds. But why? What qualities do these worlds have that necessarily makes them worthwhile? Is it automatically better to have ANY world than no world? I think that Roland cares about good worlds and would gladly protect a good cosmos, if one exists, or work to make a good cosmos if the one that he lives in is not really good.
That's the bottom line, IMHO, of these debates about the Tower and the Horn.

Bumbler19
02-24-2009, 01:48 AM
Free will is particularly important in Western culture, but I don't think it is solely a Christian idea: certainly a number of humanist thinkers have rejected the Christian faith partly because they don't feel that it respects the free will concept as earnestly as it claims to.

If it's true that TDT puts forward "Towericism/Ganicism," then I think it'd be interesting to examine the consistency/validity of that, and to test the truth of its various assertions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumbler19 View Post
...Regarding the horn signifying a loss of free will, I don't think it really it signifies a loss exactly... more like a hint of how much free will Roland has always had. I think a lot of things that happen throughout the series, roland does have the power to choose, the beginning and ends and other certain key points will always happen and Roland has no free will over those matters.
So, how do you feel about that?

True Free will isn't solely a christian idea but the relation I was using is that you have the Free Will to choose to believe or not, to reject the apple, or eat it. both are possible, the end results are different.

My purpose for saying Towericism/Ganicism was merely to strengthen my point that It is a completely different Realm a separation needs to be noted, and certain things like Free will don't necessarily exist, just because they do in our world.

In regards to Roland not having free will pertaining to those "key points" I honestly don't have a problem with it... I think that some event, will lead to some event, will lead to some event, which will lead to the saving of the beam, and in turn the tower. And maybe that one first "Domino" was toppled by Gan, something small, like just happening to meet a certain billy bumbler, or a feather floats and tickles Roland's nose making him see something important.

I think Roland loses a lot of his character if there is a real possibility of him just deciding to call it quits on his own accord. There is a sense of duty, weather or not he is conscious of it or not.

The King of Kings
02-24-2009, 08:13 AM
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before or not, but who says it had to be a gift from Gan/Dark Tower?

Assuming we just met up with Roland at the desert and all of his past had already happened, couldn't he have just picked it up on his own accord? The thought crossed his mind the time we read didn't it?

This probably opens up a lot more plot holes then it's worth. :panic:

Merlin1958
02-24-2009, 08:24 AM
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before or not, but who says it had to be a gift from Gan/Dark Tower?

Assuming we just met up with Roland at the desert and all of his past had already happened, couldn't he have just picked it up on his own accord? The thought crossed his mind the time we read didn't it?

This probably opens up a lot more plot holes then it's worth. :panic:

I think that since his past, prior to the desert, is we assume fixed and therefore outside the loop, that some form of "Divine" or "Supernatural" intervention is required for him to obtain the Horn. I think its safe to assume that his past prior to "The Man in Black......." is fixed like in keystone earth and not repeated or amendable other than by someone or something above and beyond stepping in to make an exception.

On another note, you all make an excellent point with regard to the number of loops lol lol. Can't believe I missed that rather obvious observation. In retrospect, "19" must have more to do with SK's accident date, When he began writing the epic or, my personal favorite, 1918 the last time (before recent regrettable events) that the Red Sox had one the World Series. Talk about "Ka" King finishes the DT series and the Sox win the Series, ending 86 years of sweet & deserving N.E. misery!!!!! lol lol (What can I say, I'm a died in the wool Yankee fan!!!!) lol lol lol

jayson
02-24-2009, 08:30 AM
But is the past really fixed? Roland himself says that "even the past is in motion" leading me to believe that it's not necessarily fixed at all.

Merlin1958
02-24-2009, 08:36 AM
But is the past really fixed? Roland himself says that "even the past is in motion" leading me to believe that it's not necessarily fixed at all.

True, but I think it is for Roland at least in regard to the loop. SK does contradict himself a few times (I am currently re-reading it and am up to DT7) so I was kinda going by the major plot points i.e. the fact that when he enters the Tower room he ends up back in the desert and not Mejis or otherwise. Still, its just my interpetation.

EdwardDean1999
02-24-2009, 03:22 PM
But is the past really fixed? Roland himself says that "even the past is in motion" leading me to believe that it's not necessarily fixed at all.

THe past is never written for Roland. Each time he reaches the tower I believe he has a chance to rewrite the past as though it is the future. Sort of like the Back to the Future 2 notion that the future is not set in stone. In Roland's case the past is fluid, not fixed because he does not realize it but he has the ability to rewrite his history.

On free will: I tend to think that in the theology of Towerism/Ganism as it's been called here does not necessarily deny the existence of free will. It at least acknowledges it. Ganism assumes that Fee Will is an illusion held by the non-believer. So even as RF believes he is in control of his destiny and Ka, the truth is he is destined to be unceremoniously killed. It is his Ka to be a non-believer and to make a fatal error.

Merlin1958
02-24-2009, 03:36 PM
On free will: I tend to think that in the theology of Towerism/Ganism as it's been called here does not necessarily deny the existence of free will. It at least acknowledges it. Ganism assumes that Fee Will is an illusion held by the non-believer. So even as RF believes he is in control of his destiny and Ka, the truth is he is destined to be unceremoniously killed. It is his Ka to be a non-believer and to make a fatal error.

I have to go back to a thought I had earlier. I think Roland's "free will" is tied to humanity's choices. Roland, I believe, is representative of humanity throughout the multiverse. His choice are determined by the choices mankind makes and not his own individual ones. At least from the point in the desert through the room in the tower. I believe that the rest of the ka-tet carry similar responsibilty in influencing Roland's ultimate choices representing larger overall tendencies in mankind (sort of like, but not exactly, how the political parties represent U.S. Citizens in government).

Does that hold any water?

Of course, I could be out on a limb somewhere too!!! lol lol lol

EdwardDean1999
02-24-2009, 05:28 PM
Sorry Merlin but you lost me. Maybe because I believe some arguments both for and against free will in the Rolandverse. My understanding of Ka is becoming paradoxical. This whole stream of thought confounds me. :pullhair::rolleyes:

Bumbler19
02-25-2009, 02:53 AM
This whole Free Will conversation can easily be transferred to the actual christian religion, maybe SK meant for it to be a sort of point to be made about Christianity, who knows... maybe i think about this because it is one of the major points about christianity that bothers me...

We supposedly have free will... to believe or not to believe, to do what we want etc. etc. but... at the same time it is said that God has a plan for us... and God exists out of time... knowing what we have done and will do forever... therefore... is that really free will? if everything is planned for us... then how can we really make a choice

or

Matrix: If Neo was carrying the code in him to be the one Did HE really choose the red pill? or did the code urge/push/make him take the red pill? Like the Merovingian says "Choice? there is no choice, just Cause, and Effect"

Maybe it is just a theme that we've discovered that SK tied into this story like many other stories that have been written (such as the matrix). The themes purpose is merely for the audience to question the point that it portrays.

And i dunno if the "free will of humanity" thing really holds water, imo at least, because if it is humanity's free will causing Roland to do these things, then Roland himself has no free will, which brings us back to square one XD.

Merlin1958
02-25-2009, 06:51 AM
Matrix: If Neo was carrying the code in him to be the one Did HE really choose the red pill? or did the code urge/push/make him take the red pill? Like the Merovingian says "Choice? there is no choice, just Cause, and Effect"

Maybe it is just a theme that we've discovered that SK tied into this story like many other stories that have been written (such as the matrix). The themes purpose is merely for the audience to question the point that it portrays.

And i dunno if the "free will of humanity" thing really holds water, imo at least, because if it is humanity's free will causing Roland to do these things, then Roland himself has no free will, which brings us back to square one XD.

Not really when you consider that Roland's personal life ended with "the Man in Black..........." the point at which he became the central figure in the loop that (IMO) represents humanities choices (evolution/de-evolution). Remember Sk tells us throughout the story that Rolands is a special figure chosen by Gan (God). The last of the line of Eld and therefore "special" much as, say Jesus is to religeon?

My theory therefore is that Roland (and to an extent the Tet) cease to exhibit there own personal free will but represent the collective free will choices of Mankind. Thereby either saving or destroying mankind. Its like the whole religeon thing you mentioned earlier. God and satan can not make the choices for man but, can "arrange" the circumstances for a choice to be made for right or wrong, good or evil. In religeon that is the ongoing struggle, I think that SK utilized that thread in the story of Roland and he and the ka-tet are symbols for mankinds choices throughout the multi-verse.

Just one Crack-pot's theory of course. But, it feels kinda right to me! lol lol

urborn2die
04-12-2009, 02:36 AM
Roland did not pick up the horn at the top of the tower or in the desert. It states he touched the horn at his hip and remembers picking it up on jerico hill. Also I see to remember that when he was remembering the battle further back in the series he was pulled away from the battle by some force BEFORE he could pick up the horn which he WAS going to do.

obscurejude
04-12-2009, 10:17 AM
I still think that the desert loop thing has more to do with King's own personal affinity for the opening lines than it does with any internal logic from the narrative itself. King would never compromise the internal logic for his own ego

Except, of course, entering the story as a character in the form of God. :lol:

You may be right, jude. But his personal affinity is not part of the story, imo.

I guess it depends on how you interpret the metafictional aspects. In all seriousness, I think it is a big part of the story and one that I don't care for as you all know. Having the ves ka causes all sorts of problems with the internal logic of the story and this is another example in my opinion.

nearlyprescient
04-27-2009, 11:50 PM
^ Left me breathless, thanks Jean.

Do you mind if i quote " Roland who picks the horn may not drop the boy. Hell, he might find a passable solution in Tull. A Roland who receives the horn from a Higher Force is a pawn." ?

It think it can be a spoiler.


Horn as gift from Gan or anyone else ruins the whole story for me.

Oh, you have no idea how happy I was to see this line. I started to think that I am the only weirdo again.
Thank you.
Horn as a gift from Gan... no way for me.
For me it's only one acceptable way of the Horn. That Roland himself picked it up. There is only one question left in my mind; how could he do it if he starts his loop from the desert?

maybe the same way that Roland can remember telling Eddie about the Boy when in fact, he did not, since the boy did not, in fact, die.
what I'm saying is, however that paradox is handled in the reality of the Tower, I'd assume that Roland having the horn despite the cycle starting from the desert would be handled in the same way.
I totally agree with the idea of picking up the horn indicating a completely different character as it is a valid assumption.
besides, as a gift from Gan...what's the point of putting Roland through all of this trial and error if its going to throw gifts at him that may or may not have major impacts on his quest after any specific cycle?
If we assume that each cycle is him getting progressively better at reaching the Tower with less pain and heartbreak in his wake, then what's the point of that?
I'm kind of thinking that explaining the Horn is probably difficult to do without explaining the nature of the loop.
also: in regards to the story we read being loop 19 and both 19 & 20 starting in the desert...all we really know is that loop 20 starts in the desert. If there was a prologue to The Gunslinger in which Roland stepped from the Tower's top to the desert, then it'd be clear that both loops started in the desert. But as The Gunslinger starts where we can only assume the loop has already begun (whether it started in the non-existent paragraphs before or long before that), we can't really know for sure that both loops begin in the same place.

barneyrfd
05-04-2009, 09:18 AM
So he's got the horn on his next loop...so what???

How will the horn help him finally achieve his goal, his destiny in a kinder, gentler way? He's a gunslinger for ka's sake!!

Also, he has no memories of what has gone before so how does he learn from them? According to some in this forum he has been to the tower countless times! Falling under the category perhaps of some guys never learn!

Hard to think after that many "failures" the horn will suddenly turn things around. Will he not look upon the horn as just an heirloom passed down to him? One more thing in that seemingly bottomless gunna he carries around.

And what will he get the next time he gets to the top of the tower and ends up back in the desert? Perhaps the turtle amulet that he did not stop to look for in the Dixie Pig?

Because he will fail again, and again, and again...we all do - don't we? We're only human.

pathoftheturtle
05-05-2009, 12:48 PM
"To err is human, to forgive divine." I guess one could have expected a nicer ending, if one believes in a merciful God.

The horn appears to be primarily a symbol of the fact that life is not altogether hopeless, even if it is very challenging. I'm not sure we have any thread yet actually speculating on practical uses for it. This one focuses more on the metaphysics of time travel and their implications. It might have been better to post those points with your others on the "That thing you can only talk about..." thread.

I've been enjoying your input, barney. Good to have you with us. :)

Merlin1958
05-06-2009, 07:34 AM
"To err is human, to forgive divine." I guess one could have expected a nicer ending, if one believes in a merciful God.

The horn appears to be primarily a symbol of the fact that life is not altogether hopeless, even if it is very challenging. I'm not sure we have any thread yet actually speculating on practical uses for it. This one focuses more on the metaphysics of time travel and their implications. It might have been better to post those points with your others on the "That thing you can only talk about..." thread.

I've been enjoying your input, barney. Good to have you with us. :)

To the best of my recollection, its mentioned several times that when Roland stands before the tower he will blow the horn. Since he has no horn in our tale the assumption would be that in the next go round he will have it to blow before entering the Tower. What that will change or its significance are purely speculative to the individual reader.

Aleister Crowley
05-06-2009, 07:51 AM
Id say the only reasonable assumption is that it was indeed a gift from Gan, or the tower.

barneyrfd
05-08-2009, 03:42 PM
Thanks for your welcome pathoftheturtle.

I had just finished the Dark Tower when I posted my few comments so far and I was a little (well alot) angry at the ending. I've cooled off a bit and am trying to look at things in a larger sense now. And I believe I'm going to have to read the story again.

Merlin 1958

I think you are correct, it was mentioned a couple of times Roland would blow the horn before entering the tower. So...maybe...just maybe having the horn on his next loop will make a difference.

But...

I'm wondering if when he cries out all the names of loved ones and those of former ka-tets Roland is in effect "blowing the horn". So still the horn may not be the key piece to a different, more fulfilling ending for Roland.

Or maybe he is happy looping around and around not really settling on an ending.

Maybe he really is a "tower junkie" after all and there will always be a reason to start another loop and another quest. After all, it's his story, his ka...

pathoftheturtle
05-20-2009, 09:32 AM
The paradox of ka.
Roland's quest is either pointless or meaningless. If Gan is good, then challenging Him is wrong. If Gan is not good, then challenging Him is suicide.
That's not to necessarily assume that Gan is all-powerful. The problem is the Red. If Gan is not the solution to that problem, then what is?
Let's say, hypothetically, that Gan did not give Roland the horn. Let's say that Gan does not exist. (He might just as well not exist, if He is not allowed to take any action -- if He is morally obligated to let us fend for ourselves by some principle of free will.) So, Roland picked up the horn himself, as a step in the quest he has assigned himself. If he ever reaches the top of the tower, then, he'll find it empty, and he will have a choice: abandon reality to entropy, or try to figure out how to rule it himself. It could be that the Tower offers no real tools for ordering creation. Perhaps the guardians could explain enough that he'd be able to run things... as well as it is possible for them to be run, that is... for as long as he can... even though he is not all-wise.
I don't believe that this is what Roland wants at all, yet he does behave as though it is necessary. Odd, for a man who believes in ka, isn't it? Why should he worry, and why should it be his responsibility? IMO, it's just because he feels someone should. That someone must. The hope and the faith is that Gan is already in charge, but I think that seeking confirmation is still a good idea. What's wrong with that? Even if one is a willing pawn in some senses, he can still be a man about it.

noja888
06-04-2009, 05:27 AM
I would tend to believe that Roland went all the way back to the beginning of his life and that Sai King skipped all that and started the story back in the desert because that's where we first met Roland. I think Roland picked up the horn on Jericho Hill. (I think Jericho happened again because his first Ka-tet is not with him.) I think the horn is nessicary to indroduce himself as the line of Eld. I don't think Gan would Palaver with any other. Oh wait... maybe Gan is Eld hmmmmmmmmm........I must Ponder.:orely:

Path of the turtle said "He might just as well not exist, if He is not allowed to take any action -- if He is morally obligated to let us fend for ourselves by some principle of free will"

But he did shove Roland through that last door. So Gan atleast took some action.

pathoftheturtle
06-05-2009, 06:28 AM
There's a Simpsons episode in which Marge gets mugged. She goes to the police and the chief says, "I'm going to tell you what I tell everyone who comes in here: The law is powerless to help you." So, Marge goes vigilante. Later, she's arrested for it and exclaims, "I thought you said that the law was powerless!" The chief replies, "I said we're powerless to help you, not to punish you!"

What I want to know is, if it is okay for Gan to put Roland in the loop, then why wouldn't it be okay for Him to let him out of it? I expect that Letti would counter by asking what reason He put him there for, if He was just going to let him go later. She sees it as a lesson for Roland; a test that he must solve for himself.

I was speaking hypothetically, trying to show that Roland's will and his character have been active parts of this mystic complex all along. Jean said earlier that this thread was about...
... subject of action face to face with his conscience versus two-subjects relation in which one necessarily becomes an object...... but I don't think that that is really necessary. If we cannot understand these events without viewing Gan as a non-entity or viewing Roland as a spoiled child then it is our understanding which is at fault. The efforts of each have the aim of bringing them into relationship. Like "the gentle wrestlers," which is a Japanese euphemism for lovers, their fight is not from hatred; the winner is the one who hurts the other least. Roland does not need to learn that he does not need Gan: he does need Gan, and he knows it. And Gan is not powerless to help him.

Gan gives the horn, and Roland takes it. Dividing these is a false dichotomy.

That's my answer, Letti. It must be both. I'm voting "Something else."

mdk101
07-03-2009, 09:08 PM
It has been suggested before that the horn was a gift from Gan based on Roland's growth during the 19th cycle.

^ This.

It is brought up several times towards the end how it would have taken mere seconds to pick it up and how Roland wished he had it upon his arrival to the tower.

I am assuming Gan instilled the memory of Roland picking it up (although he never in fact in the first place). The "gifting" is also assumed in the "This is your sigul..." line at the very end of the series:

"He shifted his gunna from one shoulder to the other, then
touched the horn that rode on his belt behind the gun on his
right hip. The ancient brass horn had once been blown by
Arthur Eld himself, or so the story did say. Roland had given it
to Cuthbert Allgood at Jericho Hill, and when Cuthbert fell,
Roland had paused just long enough to pick it up again, knocking
the deathdust of that place from its throat.

This is your sigul, whispered the fading voice that bore with
it the dusk-sweet scent of roses, the scent of home on a summer
evening...

This is your promise that things may be different, Roland—that
there may yet be rest. Even salvation.

...Roland touched the horn again, and its reality was oddly
comforting, as if he had never touched it before."

soapbox99
07-15-2009, 06:05 PM
In the chronology of the dark tower world when the gunslinger begins the world has already moved on and by the time Roland makes it to the tower the universe is at its exhausted end, on the very verge of breaking apart. And in my mind there can be no doubt that Roland does not just return the world to the slightly less dilapidated state that it is when he crosses the desert, he actually returns it to the beginning of time. as the reader are shown the beginning of the gunslinger only as a metaphorical return to the beginning a return to where we met our great gunslinger and began our journey. In Rolandís head his life started over from a baby, in shardik the bearís mind it was his first memories after being made, for the universe back to the forging of the tower and the beams. Time is simultaneous in the dark tower hence the ability to switch between whenís never travelling forward or back but simply stepping through

The horn is the symbol of the beginning of the end to the endless cycle something even so tiny has changed and chaos theory dictates that that small change will ripple out and change other things it may only be one repetition it may be thousand but eventual when things are done correctly Roland will save the tower and restore the world with out returning it to the very beginning. The horn is a symbol of hope for poor Roland hope that one day he will be able to rest.



"Humanity does not ask us to be happy. It merely asks us to be brilliant on its behalf. Survival first, then happiness as we can manage it."

"We're going to just take it right out, and it won't hurt a bit."
Ender nodded. It was a lie, of course, that it wouldn't hurt a bit. But since adults always
said it when it was going to hurt, he could count on that statement as an accurate
prediction of the future. Sometimes lies were more dependable than the truth."

High_Desert_Gunslinger
03-18-2010, 08:21 AM
Holy crap I just read all ten pages and all I can say is that this series makes my head hurt lol you guys gave me so many different theories now

Sickrose
03-20-2010, 03:00 AM
I voted that he picked the horn up but it hadnt occurred to me hopw this would happen if Jericho Hill was well before the desert.

I think when Roland is pulled into the dessert he still has a past and one in which he took time to pick up the horn. I think this is important as it symbolises Roland taking time out from chasing the tower. As such, it could follow he wiill not let Jake falls as he will take the time to help him.

I think that Roland picking up the horn perhaps symbolises a less self absorbed quest for the tower. I beleive that the loop isint depending on Roland changing in order to end the loop, as Ihave discussed in other threads, it is waiting for the world to change. Therefore, a quest to the tower full of death and betrayal is not a world in which it would survive but a world with a more noble journey is perhaps one where it can. Therefore the horn perhaps symbolises this??

Although, I see Gan more as the divine watch maker - he set the world moving ( I think there is a pasage whereby it mentions how he set the ball rolling, literally - I forget where) he set the world in motion and has left it to it's own devices. It "moved on" It needs to change in order to live side by side with technology and the original magic. I have digressed a bit but I think the nature of Gan is important in considering whether it is possbile he gave the horn to Roland.

SynysterSaint
03-20-2010, 04:23 PM
I think that Gan gave Roland the horn along with his memories of picking it up after he re-entered his loop into the desert. The Tower is simply a pathway to Roland's salvation; I believe that Roland saved the Tower on his first loop, and now each consecutive loop is the Gan's way of saving Roland as a thank-you. Yes, it appears to be a pretty heavy punishment for the way Roland lost his humanity chasing the Tower, but at the same time Gan realizes he/she cannot simply grant Roland salvation; he must find it himself. So, each loop is made easier by Gan by giving him a new item or a new something if Roland reached some level of humanity in the previous loop.

On a related note: I haven't seen a good explanation of why some think that the loop in the series was the 19th loop. Can someone fill me in, please?

Flavio
03-20-2010, 04:41 PM
Maybe this was said before... but I think the Horn is like... some kind of key to the tower too?
So... maybe... as Roland did not have the Horn the first time he entered the tower, he got the Horn from Gan, becouse he HAS to enter the Tower with the Horn...
Maybe that (Not having the Horn) is the reason for Gan to make Roland go back to the desert, and start his path again... with the horn... so if Roland makes it to the Tower again... he will have it... and... maybe... a happy ending...
Dunno...
PD: When I started reading the last book... I was expecting Roland to get to the top of the Tower and see all his friends come back to life and happy ending...
Silly, isn't it? :wtf:

Woofer
03-22-2010, 05:14 AM
I think that Gan gave Roland the horn along with his memories of picking it up after he re-entered his loop into the desert. The Tower is simply a pathway to Roland's salvation; I believe that Roland saved the Tower on his first loop, and now each consecutive loop is the Gan's way of saving Roland as a thank-you. Yes, it appears to be a pretty heavy punishment for the way Roland lost his humanity chasing the Tower, but at the same time Gan realizes he/she cannot simply grant Roland salvation; he must find it himself. So, each loop is made easier by Gan by giving him a new item or a new something if Roland reached some level of humanity in the previous loop.

On a related note: I haven't seen a good explanation of why some think that the loop in the series was the 19th loop. Can someone fill me in, please?

Interesting theory Syn Saint. I'll have to ponder further.

I think this came about just because of the significance of the number 19 in the series. That led many to believe that perhaps this was loop #19.

SynysterSaint
03-22-2010, 06:27 PM
Interesting theory Syn Saint. I'll have to ponder further.

I think this came about just because of the significance of the number 19 in the series. That led many to believe that perhaps this was loop #19.

Thank you very much.

And I figured that would be the reason, but I thought there might be more to it. I overthink things far too often :doh:

Ageless Stranger
03-22-2010, 06:44 PM
PD: When I started reading the last book... I was expecting Roland to get to the top of the Tower and see all his friends come back to life and happy ending...
Silly, isn't it? :wtf:

Nah, not silly. But King does say there's no such thing. That he never met one to equal "Once upon a time". I think it's funny how he tries to get you to stop reading. Yeah, right.

pathoftheturtle
03-25-2010, 01:01 PM
I haven't seen a good explanation of why some think that the loop in the series was the 19th loop. Can someone fill me in, please?

I think this came about just because of the significance of the number 19 in the series. That led many to believe that perhaps this was loop #19.It was said that the reason that 19 recurred so much was because 19 was the ka of Roland's world. If the reason for that were because it was the 19th version of that world, due to Roland's cycle, then this next version should have lots of things adding up to 20, and Roland won't have another date with destiny in the ka of 99 world (where the rose is) until 2099. However, this makes little sense, since Robert Browning only lived between 1812 and 1889. (Unless the numerology of the latter world also changes, for some reason.)
...I overthink things far too often :doh:
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s12/POTT2007/smileys/emoticon_ShiftyEyes.gif

Chantarelle
04-01-2010, 06:54 PM
Wow! What an interesting thread. I always took for granted that Roland picked up the horn. I never considered a different possibility. What interested me is what he didn't do when he was picking up the horn. For me it was always a repeat (or whatever a repeat is if it comes before) of letting Jake fall. I don't think there's many that would say that Roland would have let the boy fall if the MIB hadn't been there. It's because he had to make the choice that Jake died. And I think the same with the horn, except he went back and got it instead of letting it fall.

I wonder what difference this would make to Roland. I always saw the horn as being more Cuthbert's than Roland's and I'm curious to know what Roland would have been like if he'd had this constant physical reminder of his old friend and the loss of him. I would also be interested to know if the introduction of the horn would have made any difference to the tet that we came to know. When Eddie and Roland are first together, after the drugs and the near death, when Eddie says, 'What's that?' would we have had a similar flashback story to WaG? The whole tet may have seen Roland in a different light if they knew the story of Jericho Hill and the journey to the tower may have then been something completely different.

Just my rambling two cents...

brightmidnight71
05-25-2010, 01:34 PM
I always saw the horn as being more Cuthbert's than Roland's and I'm curious to know what Roland would have been like if he'd had this constant physical reminder of his old friend and the loss of him.


Awesome thread. MANY SPOILERS AHEAD: I totally agree with this sentiment. For me, dropping Jake was everything. Some have asked if Roland's goal is to just go through these tasks over and over, like a video game, trying to get a better score each time, then what's the point?
What if Roland is never supposed to reach the Tower? What if that's what he's been doing "wrong" every time?

In my mind, the horn would be a constant reminder of not only Cuthbert and in turn Alain, Jamie, Gilead, and Steven and all the sacrifice that had already been made for his quest.
In the go-round we got to read about, he makes a conscious choice to drop Jake or risk losing MIB, thinking that, he has sacrificed this much so far, let so many people die and killed so many others, what's another boy?

To me, that decision is the crux of his journey. Say, instead of dropping Jake and holding a palaver with Walter for a decade (i think that's how much he aged, but the palaver could have been a hundred years for all we know), he saves Jake and let's Walter go for the time being.
That time he spent in his palaver, might have been spent further tracking him, with Jake at his side, learning, growing, becoming a man and a gunslinger under Roland's tutelage--a Roland who does not have a diminished right hand and entrusts one of his guns to Jake, not because he can no longer use both at the same time, but because it's Jake's right and privilege. Perhaps the drawing would come later, and perhaps those he draws would be versions of Eddie and Susannah from different worlds, an Eddie who isn't a junkie, a Susannah without the split personality issues and a full pair of legs.

Perhaps the true completion of the journey, would be Roland sacrificing himself, not for the Tower, but for Jake or the ka-tet. Perhaps Roland is meant to sacrifice himself for Sai King, leaving an adult Jake Chambers to travel to the tower and cry the name of Roland of Gilead.

pathoftheturtle
05-25-2010, 03:46 PM
...he makes a conscious choice to drop Jake or risk losing MIB, thinking that, he has sacrificed this much so far, let so many people die and killed so many others, what's another boy?
...I think that at least this much is right. Seems to me that he was resigned to losing Jake because he believed that he'd always been unable to help people whom he cared about.

JacobChambers
10-26-2010, 04:43 PM
I'm sorry i can't read EVERYTHING here right now, i'm too tired, and i will in time, but for now...i have a question

I like the idea of "A Roland that picks up the horn, may not drop the boy" but does this mean we are to assume that because he is to start the loop again from the dessert that it's something that he did between the dessert and the tower that ultimately seals his fate to complete the loop again?

Do you know what i mean?

Merlin1958
10-26-2010, 04:50 PM
I always took it that Roland was in a "closed loop" beginning with "The Man in Black......." and ending in the Tower. Therefore, Roland only has "Free Choice" in those confines. So Gan, as Roland's character develpos and matures, shows symbilically that growth by altering things that have already happened and are not in his control.

If you know what I mean!!! LOL

pathoftheturtle
10-27-2010, 11:07 AM
I'm sorry i can't read EVERYTHING here right now, i'm too tired...That's okay, quite understand, but it's a topic you may find quite interesting at some point. However, this --

...i have a question

I like the idea of "A Roland that picks up the horn, may not drop the boy" but does this mean we are to assume that because he is to start the loop again from the dessert that it's something that he did between the dessert and the tower that ultimately seals his fate to complete the loop again?

Do you know what i mean?-- is something you might find already answered on another thread, starting at this post (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showpost.php?p=88133&postcount=1).