Could the rose have hurt...

[Letti]

Could the rose have hurt Mia?
You remember when the ka-tet visited the rose in New York and Susannah was the only one who decided to stay away from it but now we know that she did it because Mia inside didn't want to get close to it. Mia was afraid of the rose.
Can you imagine that the rose would have been able to hurt her? Or the growing monster inside her?

[Wuducynn]

Yes. DT7 spoiler because the Rose in the vacant lot is the same as the roses in the Red Fields of None, and if you remember one of those roses chopped Roland's finger off

[Letti]

Was such a thing in DT7???

[Wuducynn]

Yep. At the very end. When Roland realizes he needs a rose to complete the color of the Crimson King's eyes he leaps to grab one and it tears off his finger and he mixes his blood with the rose and it is exactly the color of Los's eyes

[Letti]

Oh yes, how poor my memory is. Thank you.
But I am not sure it gives us the answer the rose must have been able to hurt Mia. I mean Susannah wouldn't have been forced to touch the rose or something.
Do you see what I mean?

[Wuducynn]

Oh yes, how poor my memory is. Thank you.
But I am not sure it gives us the answer the rose must have been able to hurt Mia. I mean Susannah wouldn't have been forced to touch the rose or something.
Do you see what I mean?

From what I remember the rose in the vacant lot is the same as those in Can Ka' No Rey, so to me that is answer enough, that if needed The Rose can hurt someone.

[Letti]

I don't say it couldn't... I am sure it had the power to hurt anyone.
But a simple fence can't stop it. I mean... I don't think the rose would have hurt Mia because it didn't mean to and not because the lack of the power. That's all.

[Wuducynn]

Well you know beautiful and yet fragile things can hurt someone even its just with their beauty..like lovely ladies who pose for pictures in Spain for instance... :huglove:

[Letti]

1. Well you know beautiful and yet fragile things can hurt someone even its just with their beauty..
2. like lovely ladies who pose for pictures in Spain for instance... :huglove:

1. What an incredibly beautiful statement. May I quote it?

2. And this part made me absolutely speechless...

[Jean]

Can holy water hurt the devil? Not really, but he still loathes it, because it is holy.

[Wuducynn]

1. Well you know beautiful and yet fragile things can hurt someone even its just with their beauty..
2. like lovely ladies who pose for pictures in Spain for instance... :huglove:

1. What an incredibly beautiful statement. May I quote it?

2. And this part made me absolutely speechless...

Of course. :harrier:

[Matt]

That was something there Matthew, I actually sighed when I read it. Not like me. :lol:

I agree with most others. The Rose would have hurt Mia in the way that the idea of good or "The White" will always hurt things that are evil.

[Letti]

Okay, we can say the rose would have hurt her but it wouldn't have killed her.. am I right?

[Wuducynn]

I honestly don't know. I'm not sure there is much evidence either way, whether the Rose would actually kill Mia...maybe her baby..he was sure frightened by the Rose.

[Letti]

I see. I am sorry if it wasn't such an exciting question but I have been thinking about it for awhile... because I think the rose did have the power to kill Mia or her chap or both still I can't imagine such an action from the rose.
I can imagine that it would have hurt for Mia/Susannah to look at it... or something like that but nothing too bloody or violent.

[LadyHitchhiker]

Even paper can cut... So I think there's a chance...

[Matt]

I do not think it would have killed her, just made it very unpleasant.

I believe the rose could burn but not kill the way holy water does a vampire

[Wuducynn]

I am sorry if it wasn't such an exciting question .

Don't you dare apologize! Its a great question! :angry:


:huglove:

[jayson]

also, remember how the Rose affected the Touch, or the how much they all knew without having to say. at that point, Susannah/Mia was still keeping secrets. maybe if she got closer to the Rose with all of them, it would have exposed the truth to the rest of the Tet and some of what happened would have happened differently. just a thought.

[Matt]

I like that angle

[jayson]

I am sorry if it wasn't such an exciting question .

Don't you dare apologize! Its a great question! :angry:


:huglove:

agreed, it's a perfectly good question Letti. mia was def scared of it, so there is plenty of reason to discuss why she was.

[Letti]

also, remember how the Rose affected the Touch, or the how much they all knew without having to say. at that point, Susannah/Mia was still keeping secrets. maybe if she got closer to the Rose with all of them, it would have exposed the truth to the rest of the Tet and some of what happened would have happened differently. just a thought.

What an interesting idea! Yeah, it's absolutely possible. But for my part I don't think Mia was afraid of the rose because of this.
I can imagine that she was afraid of it because for her it would have been really painful to look at it...
OR
I might be naive but I can imagine that Mia was scared because she didn't want to be touched by the beauty of the rose... she didn't want to get closer to the White.
For me Mia was much more a victim than a villian so I can imagine Mia was afraid of it so much because she didn't want to get influenced by somethin so deeply good...
does it make any sense?




I am sorry if it wasn't such an exciting question .

Don't you dare apologize! Its a great question! :angry:


:huglove:

agreed, it's a perfectly good question Letti. mia was def scared of it, so there is plenty of reason to discuss why she was.

Thanks guys. Thank you.

[LadyHitchhiker]

I thought it was great qustion, Letti... :D

[jayson]

... I can imagine Mia was afraid of it so much because she didn't want to get influenced by somethin so deeply good...
does it make any sense?


makes a lot of sense. mia knew what she was doing was wrong, and just like we saw with the guitar player on the street, she could be influenced by beauty to not be so selfish in her decisions. the Rose might have been too much for her to handle.

[Matt]

Makes you wonder if she should have just gone.

If anything could turn you to the white, seems like the Rose could

[Letti]

Maybe that's the way it can protect itself so successfully... not with flying blades coming out of its petals... not with hot buzzing electricitiy... but the way it influences you. You cannot hurt it because you feel how good it is.
Just thoughts..

[LadyHitchhiker]

Unless you're that bad... and then the power you feed off and you can corrupt it??? Maybe?

[obscurejude]

Letti, I've been thinking, but I still don't have anything significant to add. This always confused me as well. I think we've determined in other threads that none of King's antagonist are born innately evil. They are all complex, and they all have moments of humanity, even Mordred and the Crimson King. Mia certainly wasn't completely evil either. I can't really figure it out. It seems the rose would have helped her, if anything. It would have helped her recall whatever was good within her. Maybe thats why she was afraid, because a part of her would've understood that Mordred was capable of great calamity. In this sense, the rose was a threat to Mia.

[Letti]

Maybe she was afraid of the truth. She didn't want to know what's inside her. Mia wasn't a stupid chick...
DT6 but she wanted to believe that her only dream could become true. She could become a mother.

And yes, I absolutely agree. King's evil characters are very detailed and complex.

[LadyHitchhiker]

Maybe if Mia understood what good was truly in her she would realize that she couldn't have a child?

[Letti]

Maybe if Mia understood what good was truly in her she would realize that she couldn't have a child?

Why can't she have a child if there is good in her?

[LadyHitchhiker]

Maybe she was only given the opportunity because that way she service the red... as trying to serve the white, Mia wouldn't truly exist, and/or she wouldn't be able to give birth becasue she wouldn't be having the spiderbaby?

[LadyHitchhiker]

She was only given the gift because she was serving the wrong team?

[Letti]

DT6
She was given the gift because she wanted it so much. Insanely. She sold the last pice of her soul to have a baby. That's why she was perfect. She was the perfect puppet.
I don't think she would have lost the baby if the good had found its way to the surface.

[mia/susannah]

Letti, that is a good question. I think the bueaty of the rose is what would have hurt mia.

[LadyHitchhiker]

What a horrible existence, to exist as a succubus forever, having the sex, but never being able to have the one thing you want: a baby.

I feel sorry for Mia.

[Letti]

What a horrible existence, to exist as a succubus forever, having the sex, but never being able to have the one thing you want: a baby.

I feel sorry for Mia.

I guess you are not alone with this feeling, Liz.

[LadyHitchhiker]

But maybe just maybe if she touched the rose it could save her! :D

[Letti]

But maybe just maybe if she touched the rose it could save her! :D

She might have realised this or that but if once you sold your soul you will get lost forever.

[Wuducynn]

She might have realised this or that but if once you sold your soul you will get lost forever.

Hey, she got to have a child and the child of the Crimson King's and Roland's on top of that. So a child of two kings. So she got what she wanted..it didn't happen the way she wanted it to but que sera sera..

[Letti]

She might have realised this or that but if once you sold your soul you will get lost forever.

Hey, she got to have a child and the child of the Crimson King's and Roland's on top of that. So a child of two kings. So she got what she wanted..it didn't happen the way she wanted it to but que sera sera..

So?
What I meant above is that when she could have met the rose it was too late to turn to the White. So I don't think the rose could have saved her from her faith.
I didn't say her dream didn't become true.

[Wuducynn]

So?
What I meant above is that when she could have met the rose it was too late to turn to the White. So I don't think the rose could have saved her from her faith.
I didn't say her dream didn't become true.

But if she turned to the White, she wouldn't have what she has wanted since she was left behind in the Prim's recession, probably before. She sold herself and got what she wanted. I don't think the Rose would have "saved" her, and I don't think she would have wanted to be "saved".

[Letti]

So?
What I meant above is that when she could have met the rose it was too late to turn to the White. So I don't think the rose could have saved her from her faith.
I didn't say her dream didn't become true.

But if she turned to the White, she wouldn't have what she has wanted since she was left behind in the Prim's recession, probably before. She sold herself and got what she wanted. I don't think the Rose would have "saved" her, and I don't think she would have wanted to be "saved".

Yesyes, I agree. Absolutely.

[Whitey Appleseed]

Maybe, like Black Thirteen under the floor of Callahan's church, somewhat neutralized, or made to sleep by the simple faith of his parishioners, if Mia/Susannah had gone over the fence to have communion with the rose, the hungry chap would no longer have been hungry, would have been a still-birth, or something.

[alinda]

... I can imagine Mia was afraid of it so much because she didn't want to get influenced by somethin so deeply good...
does it make any sense?


makes a lot of sense. mia knew what she was doing was wrong, and just like we saw with the guitar player on the street, she could be influenced by beauty to not be so selfish in her decisions. the Rose might have been too much for her to handle.


Makes you wonder if she should have just gone.

If anything could turn you to the white, seems like the Rose could


Maybe that's the way it can protect itself so successfully... not with flying blades coming out of its petals... not with hot buzzing electricitiy... but the way it influences you. You cannot hurt it because you feel how good it is.
Just thoughts..



This idea has more than merit to me, I think the answers here are spot on .:rose:

[Whitey Appleseed]

I don't think Mia would have been influenced by the rose. She need Susannah to become human, as I recall...still on the re-read. King wrote that she couldn't go to the rose "because some part of her was frightened of the rose. Of getting too lose to it." I don't think Mia would have been influenced by a field of roses--she wanted the chap, wanted to have form and purpose. Just as Callahan was not influenced by Black Thirteen, he didn't like it, didn't want it around. Mia came and took her legs back so that the Susannah part because Mia didn't want to be near the rose, she didn't want the simple answer the rose could provide.

[Whitey Appleseed]

In chapter VII, “Nocturne, Hunger,” section two, (p489 in my paperback copy) Eddie awakens in the barn where Susannah and him have been sleeping. Susannah is gone and Mia, daughter of none, is in control. Actually, the hongry chap is in control. “…it did this not with it’s voice but by turning certain switches inside her…”(section 1,482)

But Eddie is in the loft, wondering what to do, watching her below, pacing back and forth in her chair. “There she was.” Eddie’s take on why she didn’t want to go near the rose is narrated, he’s thinking, “she didn’t want to go too close to the rose. She had her reasons for that, and they were good reasons, but you know what I think the real reason was? I think she was afraid it would hurt whatever it is she’s carrying in her belly.”



“Yes, and he had an idea—only an intuition, really—that this one might be a hell of lot nicer than Detta, but he’d be a fool to bet his life on it.” (491)


Or how about a more cynical view? Roland told them both to stay put and although Susannah and Oy were in front of him when he said it, he was talking to the two inside Susannah. Jake thinks when he wakes up from the dream that isn’t a dream, “They also want to make sure she’s able to help out when the Wolves come riding out of Thunderclap. It’d be one less gun if she was busy having a miscarriage or a nervous breakdown or something.” (Same chapter, section 3, p495)

Why did Roland tell them both to stay? Was he thinking about the showdown with the Wolves? Jake’s belief that something was lost when Roland and Eddie decided to keep things from Susannah has a ring of truth to it, no? “They were no longer ka-tet, that was his understanding of the truth.” (496) Is this another instance of Roland having his head in the wrong place?