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Letti
03-10-2008, 10:57 AM
When Roland and his ka-tet went to todash they saw dead people there. I am sure you remember Susannah and Oy noticed them first...

I am simply interested in your thoughts and the logic you see behind their existance.
How did they get there? I mean do they walk around us all the time but we cannot notice them or they could be there because Roland and his friends opened some gate or door... were they just lost visitors?... did they have to leave our world when the ka-tet had to go or they could stay? We know they heard the unbearably beautiful sound of the kammen.

jayson
03-10-2008, 11:06 AM
those were the "vagrant dead" of whom my understanding was that they were people that died so suddenly that they don't yet realize that they are dead. i think it's said that eventually most of them realize they are dead and move on, but i guess some could wander forever. also, i think they are there all the time, but the tet can see them bc they are todash, but regular people in that world don't see them though they may sense them.

Letti
03-10-2008, 11:09 AM
But they were many times in todash but that was the only time they saw them (and they saw 3!!!)... do I remember well? I am rereading Wolves now so I might be wrong.

jayson
03-10-2008, 11:11 AM
that was the only time i recall them seeing any. i think it's an idea king had that he wanted to get in there, but it wasn't that crucial so he threw it into that one scene but didn't feel he needed to keep telling us about them. i guess the other times they went todash they could prob see the vags too, but we just aren't told about it.

Letti
03-10-2008, 11:18 AM
Ahh I see. They didn't come with todash they had been here before as well.

jayson
03-10-2008, 11:19 AM
right, they were there all along but the people there couldn't see them, only the tet could because the tet was todash

MonteGss
03-10-2008, 04:54 PM
That was my understanding of the vagrant dead as well. They are probably always wandering around in todash-land and the tet saw them cuz they were todash. It wasn't necessary to mention the vagrant dead every time todash was mentioned. :)

obscurejude
03-10-2008, 04:57 PM
Maybe someone can help me out since we keep dancing around it in here. Are the vagrant dead eventually heading toward infinite todash and not the clearing at the end of the path? I mean, they hear the kammen and they can only be seen while their viewers are in the todash state. What is the difference between the vagrant dead afterlife and everyone else besides the fact that they don't know they are dead yet? I'll take your answer off the air.

Wuducynn
03-10-2008, 05:11 PM
Maybe someone can help me out since we keep dancing around it in here. Are the vagrant dead eventually heading toward infinite todash and not the clearing at the end of the path? I mean, they hear the kammen and they can only be seen while their viewers are in the todash state. What is the difference between the vagrant dead afterlife and everyone else besides the fact that they don't know they are dead yet? I'll take your answer off the air.

It seems to me, the vagrant dead are stuck inbetween worlds, which is the todash darkness.

obscurejude
03-10-2008, 06:00 PM
CK, I was thinking of the darkness that the tet talks about in regards to being lost while traveling between the worlds. That's the reason they hold hands. The darkness that one of the doors underneath Discordia leads to. The darkness that contains monsters unspeakable, to which the Crimson King sent his enemies. Is this where the vagrant dead are heading?

Wuducynn
03-10-2008, 07:53 PM
Umm, yes Obscure, thats what I meant. Its that place.

obscurejude
03-10-2008, 08:13 PM
Okay, if they are in that darkness, then how are they present in New York. I'm not trying to be obscure.

Brainslinger
03-10-2008, 08:59 PM
I don't think the vagrant dead are in the todash darkness between worlds. Neither are most of them going there (although some unfortunate souls might ). Where, they do go though... I guess it's the place where everyone else goes, be it heaven, hell, the clearing at the end of the path or other worlds than these.

They're detectable by people who have gone todash, like the ka-tet when they went to visit the rose, and Father Calahan in his ramblings. They are todash in that they are on another plane of existence, imperceptible to most people, except in a subconscious way (hence people moving aside for them etc.) But that's not the same as being in the todash space between worlds, although I'm sure they're sensitive to it on some level.

obscurejude
03-10-2008, 09:14 PM
waits for CK to fill in the gaps

John Blaze
03-10-2008, 11:38 PM
But wait. When they went "Todash" to the lot of the Rose, weren't they really inside Black Number 13? That's why everything was tinted dark, right? So they weren't really in the Todash Darkness, although I believe they might have passed thru there.

obscurejude
03-10-2008, 11:45 PM
But wait. When they went "Todash" to the lot of the Rose, weren't they really inside Black Number 13? That's why everything was tinted dark, right? So they weren't really in the Todash Darkness, although I believe they might have passed thru there.

That's an interesting point John. But what about the fact that they could see the vagrant dead? If Black 13 is representative of the eternal outer darkness, then perhaps that means that the vagrant are damned if they are only seen as a result of Black 13. Damn, this thread is confusing me.

John Blaze
03-10-2008, 11:48 PM
you and me both, bud. :unsure:

Letti
03-10-2008, 11:49 PM
Damn, this thread is confusing me.

Oh how happy I am to see it. ;)

obscurejude
03-10-2008, 11:53 PM
I'm willing to endure this precariousness for your sake anytime Letti. :)

Letti
03-11-2008, 12:00 AM
*smiles* Thank you. I really love to see if a thread becomes interesting or confusing for others. It means I am not alone and it was worth to open it.

jayson
03-11-2008, 03:45 AM
i don't know that i think the vagrant dead are damned to todash darkness forever. think about who we saw as todash dead. surely the little girl who was in the car accident was not eternally damned to darkness, right? we see through the "deaths" of jake and father callahan that death is a door to somewhere else. i think these folks just have other doors to go through, they just haven't gotten that far yet [perhaps it takes awhile longer without Walter to just put you in your next place like Jake or Callahan had]. as for #13, i don't think they travelled within it, just bc of it. it sent them todash but i don't think it sent them inside of itself [the thing was asleep when this happened]. the blackness was a sign that 13 was involved but i don't think it did to them what the grapefruit did to roland

Wuducynn
03-11-2008, 05:18 AM
I think there are varying degrees of 'todash', both of which mean you're inbetween worlds, the one when they were in New York was where they were still in NY but not all the way. You see the mobsters sense SOMETHING is in the room with them, just like folk feel the vagrant dead or what are commonly just called ghosts. Then there is the way out in the darkness todash where the demons of the Prim swim.
Hope this helps.

jayson
03-11-2008, 05:20 AM
makes sense to me matthew

John Blaze
03-11-2008, 07:13 AM
damn Allhail, this is the first time I've seen you do serious posts, in a row. :P

Wuducynn
03-11-2008, 07:14 AM
Its the blue moon. :harrier:

Storyslinger
03-11-2008, 07:31 AM
Callahan said he saw them too, during one of his todsh experiances, but I going with R of G's first post on this one.

obscurejude
03-11-2008, 08:18 AM
"Where the demons of the Prim swim" Sounds like a good name for a band. :thumbsup:

I'm just going to think it over some more. Helps some CK, thank you.

jayson
03-11-2008, 08:47 AM
"Where the demons of the Prim swim" Sounds like a good name for a band. :thumbsup:

I'm just going to think it over some more. Helps some CK, thank you.

too wordy, it'd be a better song title

John Blaze
03-11-2008, 06:10 PM
Demons of the Prim though, definitely good song name.

Wuducynn
03-26-2008, 02:53 PM
Helps some CK, thank you.

No problem. :harrier:

razz
12-21-2008, 05:24 AM
when i first read WotC i thought King was setting them up for a zombie apocalypse or something :wtf:

obscurejude
12-21-2008, 10:04 AM
That's because you are eager to experience one for whatever reason.

It is kind of interesting now that you mention it though. The tet could have all been cornered into the lot and gone into survival mode as the zombies climbed the walls and chewed through the fence.

LadyHitchhiker
12-21-2008, 11:23 AM
And then the zombies showed up... see, just like my dreams!!!

Whitey Appleseed
01-11-2009, 07:58 AM
I thought the timing was interesting, shortly after Mia (apparently) came and took her legs back from Susannah. "As before, Jake saw faces in every angle and shadow" Everyone, good bad and ugly. "Eddie saw people from the old neighborhood." "Roland saw all the phantoms of his life in this shadowed, brick-strewn ruin." Susannah begins to see dead people. Susannah, or the Mia part of her?...Roland told "both of them" to stay put and they did, but maybe the reason the dead people show up is because Mia is behind the controls and dials?

LadyHitchhiker
03-02-2009, 06:09 AM
That's actually a great point! I never thought of it that way.