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View Full Version : Did Jake know about the fall? How could he?



Matt
03-05-2008, 04:39 PM
This has been bothering me so I decided to throw it out there.

Obviously, the Jake that was pulled through the door on Dutch Hill was not the same Jake at the Way Station. The Jake at Dutch Hill was never dropped.

Now I know they told him the story but I seem to remember Jake wondering if Roland would save him this time...this time?

What do you guys think?

obscurejude
03-05-2008, 10:19 PM
Wow Matt. I'm going to need to think about it. Thanks for starting the thread.

ManOfWesternesse
03-06-2008, 01:05 AM
That's ....... a good question.
I'm pretty sure you're right in saying Jake wondered about '...this time...'
If so, is it a slip-up on SK's part - or did he offer explaination for it?
Another thing to look out for next time round.

Jean
03-06-2008, 01:47 AM
am I missing something again? about half the Waste Lands is about how Jake is fighting insanity brought about by the duality of his experience, one of the lines being the one where he is dropped.

MonteGss
03-06-2008, 03:14 AM
I'm with Jean on this one. I thought it was the same Jake.

Brice
03-06-2008, 03:59 AM
I absolutely agree and really can't even see how it could be another Jake.

Jean
03-06-2008, 04:02 AM
::nods fervently::

I thought it was the whole point?

jayson
03-06-2008, 04:36 AM
I was always under the impression it was the same Jake, and that's why he was going crazy the same way Roland was, bc he was trapped in a paradox of time where he both did and didn't go to the Way Station. I thought the paradox ended at Dutch Hill, but I've always thought it was the same Jake, and I guess that answers the question of how he knew about the fall. There's all that stuff about getting back to Roland, "to his world" behind every door. He'd have to have been there to remember all of those things unless he really was going crazy and it was all in his imagination - in which case he wouldn't have made it thru Dutch Hill bc there wouldn't have been a Roland to go back to.

Matt
03-06-2008, 05:22 AM
Remember, the reason Jake and Roland were going crazy is because he was never at the ways station.

"There was a boy, there was no boy"

I am absolutely certain there were three Jakes, the first one--the one throughout the story and then the one that was Eddies brother.

Unlimited worlds and possibilities of the Tower.

jayson
03-06-2008, 05:25 AM
the reason they were going crazy was bc of the paradox that he both was AND wasn't at the way station. roland draws the two lines to show both realities but i think both of those realites are represented in only one Roland and only one Jake, otherwise there'd be no insanity in Jake bc there'd be no paradox in Jake, only in Roland. that Jake goes crazy too suggests to me that it is the same Jake. maybe not the jake toren, but i do think both jake chambers' are the same jake.

Matt
03-06-2008, 06:01 AM
That makes some sense but what I am hearing is that there is no body of a young boy under the mountain?

Somehow at the bottom of the fall he returned? Or it never happened--I'm not sure.

However, on more reflection of the original question (because this thing about Jake poses all sorts), I do seem to remember that he "relived" it somehow. And I also seem to remember a place where he tells Roland..."you dropped me" right after they are reunited in this book.

I'm not totally sure how it could work either but I think the question about Jakes actual death under the mountain is somehow key.

Brice
03-06-2008, 06:02 AM
I agree Jake both was and wasn't at the way station simultaneously. The situation is similar to the grandfather paradox creating a division in both Roland's and Jake's minds. With Jake's death in Roland's world he both existed and ceased to exist. The reentry of Jake into Roland's world allowed the reversal of this paradox.

Storyslinger
03-06-2008, 06:03 AM
I think that as the time went on in Mid-World, after he was drawn through the doorway, the memories from the first/former Jake, reoccured to him. So near the end, yes he knew and remembered.

jayson
03-06-2008, 06:19 AM
i guess another related question could be is it the same callahan in the calla as the one who jumped in chicago? his memory seems intact

i don't think it's the body that matters but the mind/sprirt/soul whatever you want to call it. callahan was the same, so was jake in my estimation, wherever the bodies may lie.

Míchéal
03-06-2008, 06:21 AM
i always thought it was the same Jake...

Brice
03-06-2008, 06:24 AM
A point is though that IF as I suggested Jake simultaneously was at the way station and wasn't and then died and didn't in Roland's world he would have two distinct memory chains of the things that had happened in both possible pasts. This is where the mental confusion came in for him.

Brice
03-06-2008, 06:25 AM
I think that as the time went on in Mid-World, after he was drawn through the doorway, the memories from the first/former Jake, reoccured to him. So near the end, yes he knew and remembered.

I on the otherhand don't think he forgot at all.

Storyslinger
03-06-2008, 06:26 AM
I think that as the time went on in Mid-World, after he was drawn through the doorway, the memories from the first/former Jake, reoccured to him. So near the end, yes he knew and remembered.

I on the otherhand don't think he forgot at all.

With is more than just very possible. Its just to damn hard to know for sure.

jayson
03-06-2008, 06:29 AM
A point is though that IF as I suggested Jake simultaneously was at the way station and wasn't and then died and didn't in Roland's world he would have two distinct memory chains of the things that had happened in both possible pasts. This is where the mental confusion came in for him.

i think that is not only A point but THE point. King mentions that "paradox is ended and time is mended" meaning the paradox of jake both being and not being at the way station is the crucial element of that part of the story, and also strongly suggesting it must be the same Jake

Matt
03-06-2008, 06:32 AM
I understand you guys and agree, I'm thinking Jake remembered the events.

But did it actually happen then? Roland stopped Jake from being killed...so in the present of this book, Jake was never at the way station.

So when he is pulled back through the door, he never actually went under the mountain right. Or did both?

Míchéal
03-06-2008, 06:37 AM
terribly confusing...

jayson
03-06-2008, 06:39 AM
fun thread matt... i think the dropping was only "undone" in the sense that dropping jake sent him back to ny world and dutch hill brought him back to roland's world. i still think the dropping happened bc they both remember it. so undone in a sense, but not in another sense. how's that for a confused answer?

Brice
03-06-2008, 06:42 AM
When he reentered Roland's world it allowed for him to have been at the way station and to have been killed by Roland. It is the moment of discovery. Before that it is Shroedinger's cat both alive and dead at the same time and then upon his reentry into roland's world it allows for him to have been where he had and hadn't before. Yes, he was at the way station, and went under the mountains; but he also didn't. The paradox is negated or resolved by him being pulled by Roland through the door.

jayson
03-06-2008, 06:43 AM
When he reentered Roland's world it allowed for him to have been at the way station and to have been killed by Roland. It is the moment of discovery. Before that it is Shroedinger's cat both alive and dead at the same time and then upon his reentry into roland's world it allows for him to have been where he had and hadn't before. Yes, he was at the way station, and went under the mountains; but he also didn't. The paradox is negated or resolved by him being pulled by Roland through the door.

thanks for saying what i meant in a coherent way, and +1 for using schroedinger's cat in your example

Brice
03-06-2008, 06:45 AM
When he reentered Roland's world it allowed for him to have been at the way station and to have been killed by Roland. It is the moment of discovery. Before that it is Shroedinger's cat both alive and dead at the same time and then upon his reentry into roland's world it allows for him to have been where he had and hadn't before. Yes, he was at the way station, and went under the mountains; but he also didn't. The paradox is negated or resolved by him being pulled by Roland through the door.

thanks for saying what i meant in a coherent way, and +1 for using schroedinger's cat in your example


Thank you Jayson! :)

Edit: Oops! And I misspelled Schroedinger. Oh well, I'm gonna' write that one off to working all night. :lol:

jayson
03-06-2008, 06:47 AM
http://i25.tinypic.com/21m97jb.jpg

Brice
03-06-2008, 06:48 AM
http://i25.tinypic.com/21m97jb.jpg

So, I know this is off topic but was the cat dead or alive?

jayson
03-06-2008, 06:52 AM
i always assumed it was a hypothetical and that no real kitties were harmed in the formulation of the theory. if he really did it, i have no idea. i do love joke's about changing an outcome through observation though

Brice
03-06-2008, 06:56 AM
i always assumed it was a hypothetical and that no real kitties were harmed in the formulation of the theory. if he really did it, i have no idea. i do love joke's about changing an outcome through observation though


I'm pretty sure he didn't actually do it. :lol:

Matt
03-06-2008, 07:13 AM
Hmmm...I'm not sure its solved that easily for me. :lol:

jayson
03-06-2008, 07:15 AM
nope, that's the answer, accept it. :lol:

Darkthoughts
03-06-2008, 10:52 AM
First time I've been in this thread...and lo and behold!...everything I was going to say has been said by Jayson and Brice :lol:

jayson
03-06-2008, 10:58 AM
shocking lisa, just shocking ;)

Matt
03-06-2008, 01:50 PM
I see...so the common belief is that the "history" behind when they drew Jake is not relevant because the loop was closed.

Basically that it doesn't matter?

jayson
03-06-2008, 01:56 PM
I see...so the common belief is that the "history" behind when they drew Jake is not relevant because the loop was closed.

Basically that it doesn't matter?

not in my estimation... maybe it didn't "matter" in that jake still lived, but it still mattered bc he and Roland both remember the droppage so it goes to the trust they have to re-establish. jake has to learn to trust roland with his life all over again bc he remembers that once he was betrayed to his "death" even if he didn't die for keeps.

Matt
03-06-2008, 02:04 PM
So no body under the mountains right?

TerribleT
03-06-2008, 02:09 PM
Correct, no body under the mountains. All of that never happened after Roland stopped Mort from pushing Jake.

aurora
03-06-2008, 02:49 PM
I have to also agree with what has already been said and add that is is only possible because Jake was not from Keystone Earth. If he had then you could not have two Jake time lines since time only runs forward and once lost to/from the Keystone world its always lost.

As for a body under the mountain, I 'think' the answer is no, but I need to meditate on that one a bit longer as there is a way, theoretically speaking that there is a body that was Jakes but is not Jake. Theres a concept called conifold transitions that 'may' allow strings (as in String theory in physics) to be protected from influencing the dimensions around them as they collapse through a base dimension point, thus prevent a rip in dimensional sub-spaces. Now extend the possibility of such an event happening through a process Einstein loved to term 'spookiness' in which a single atom can be in two places with the same states at the same time. Now expand the whole thing up to two Jakes existing at one time, in order to prevent a temporal rip could a conifold transition take place around the Jake under the mountain to prevent the divergent time lines of another Jake in the same dimensional multi-verse. Hmm maybe I'll change my dissertation to this instead!

Matt
03-06-2008, 02:57 PM
Correct, no body under the mountains. All of that never happened after Roland stopped Mort from pushing Jake.

Would that include the meeting at the Gogatha?

jayson
03-06-2008, 03:31 PM
So no body under the mountains right?

i still don't know how that worked metaphysically but if i had to guess, probably not.

Jean
03-07-2008, 12:13 AM
I wouldn't advice anyone to go hunting for it anyway, or for any other conclusive artefacts of time loop aftermath. Paradox may grow exponentially, and I am afraid nobody can know what it might lead to.

TerribleT
03-07-2008, 04:44 AM
Correct, no body under the mountains. All of that never happened after Roland stopped Mort from pushing Jake.

Would that include the meeting at the Gogatha?

Interesting.

Brice
03-07-2008, 06:07 AM
shocking lisa, just shocking ;)

I know I was just stunned by this revelation. :lol:


I see...so the common belief is that the "history" behind when they drew Jake is not relevant because the loop was closed.

Basically that it doesn't matter?

Everything is always relevant....even if it isn't. It all matters. :)


So no body under the mountains right?


There is absolutely a body under the mountains in my estimation and it IS Jake's.


Correct, no body under the mountains. All of that never happened after Roland stopped Mort from pushing Jake.

Well, it still both did and didn't happen I believe. It is just useless information to the continuance of the story beyond the bond and trust issues between Roland and Jake.


I have to also agree with what has already been said and add that is is only possible because Jake was not from Keystone Earth. If he had then you could not have two Jake time lines since time only runs forward and once lost to/from the Keystone world its always lost.

I don't think this disallows Jake being from Keystone Earth. Remember Roland is as confused by the two time lines as Jake is in his own world. Even though time and space in Roland's world are moving on there is nothing to my recollection to indicate that time runs in any way, but forward. If the two time lines can exist in Roland's world I don't see why they can't in Jake's. Really the two timelines exist only in their memories for our purposes right here and are only awaiting resolution to sorta' negate one or the other at this point in the story.


As for a body under the mountain, I 'think' the answer is no, but I need to meditate on that one a bit longer as there is a way, theoretically speaking that there is a body that was Jakes but is not Jake. Theres a concept called conifold transitions that 'may' allow strings (as in String theory in physics) to be protected from influencing the dimensions around them as they collapse through a base dimension point, thus prevent a rip in dimensional sub-spaces. Now extend the possibility of such an event happening through a process Einstein loved to term 'spookiness' in which a single atom can be in two places with the same states at the same time. Now expand the whole thing up to two Jakes existing at one time, in order to prevent a temporal rip could a conifold transition take place around the Jake under the mountain to prevent the divergent time lines of another Jake in the same dimensional multi-verse. Hmm maybe I'll change my dissertation to this instead!

Why might there be a temporal rip at all caused by Jake existing at two places at the same time? I'll admit the concept of conifold transition is new to me so maybe I'm missing something, but I see no need for any sort of temporal rip in dimensions. Or then...perhaps that's precisely what the doors and todash space are in our terms? :orely:


Correct, no body under the mountains. All of that never happened after Roland stopped Mort from pushing Jake.


Which never happened cause he knew no Jake to go looking for in New York because he never met him at a way station???


Would that include the meeting at the Gogatha?

Well, if he never met Jake at the way station then he never sacrificed him at Walter's bidding which was Walter's price for the palaver. Maybe he also never found doorways on a beach? Or saved a tower? Maybe he's still back at Brown's? Or never left the desert? :panic:


I think it all happened.



So no body under the mountains right?

i still don't know how that worked metaphysically but if i had to guess, probably not.

...and here is where our opinions seperate my friend.


I wouldn't advice anyone to go hunting for it anyway, or for any other conclusive artefacts of time loop aftermath. Paradox may grow exponentially, and I am afraid nobody can know what it might lead to.


wise words.


,but down the rabbit hole we go Alice. :lol:

jayson
03-07-2008, 06:13 AM
like i said brice, it's no more than a guess when it comes to the body. i'm not at all sure how it worked with jake's deaths and where the bodies go [that's why i brought up callahan earlier]. there very well could be dead jake under the mountains. i say it's another cat and by looking for it we change the outcome.

Brice
03-07-2008, 06:26 AM
like i said brice, it's no more than a guess when it comes to the body. i'm not at all sure how it worked with jake's deaths and where the bodies go [that's why i brought up callahan earlier]. there very well could be dead jake under the mountains. i say it's another cat and by looking for it we change the outcome.

Or when we look it isn't there and when we don't it is?


I'm not sure either. I'm just enjoying looking at it from different angles.

Matt
03-07-2008, 07:10 AM
Same here--is truly fascinating.

Brice
03-07-2008, 07:15 AM
It really is. I love that there are so many threads that force you to think in new ways around here. :grouphug:

jayson
03-07-2008, 07:51 AM
glad you started this one matt, this has been a good one for sure:thumbsup:

Wuducynn
03-07-2008, 07:58 AM
Matt gives good thread.

jayson
03-07-2008, 07:58 AM
:lol:

LadyHitchhiker
03-07-2008, 08:46 AM
I don't know why but I always felt that Jake knew something bad was going to happen to him and he went anyways.

Letti
03-08-2008, 02:41 AM
I can't add more to the discussion but I'll write down how I see.
I think it was the same Jake. Roland got into the paradox because he changed his own past (he didn't let Jake get hit so there was boy and there was no boy at the same time in his memories).
Jake was suffering from it because he was way too good and strong at the touch. In fact he didn't or shouldn't get into the paradox because his future was changed and not his past still he was suffering from it relly hard because his mind and soul could touch and feel that alternative possibility that once used to be the reality.

Matt
03-08-2008, 06:07 AM
So what do you think Letti--is there a boys body under the mountain or was it somehow erased?

aurora
03-08-2008, 06:53 AM
You really want to spin your head add in the ending, where Roland gets sent back to the beginning again, well the stretch n the desert anyway. Jakes, lived/died twice and now is alive again?!

Letti
03-08-2008, 01:13 PM
So what do you think Letti--is there a boys body under the mountain or was it somehow erased?

For me it's absolutely clear that there is no body under the mountain. When Roland didn't let Jake die in his world the body vanished immediately. If Jake had left footprints in the sand of the desert they did too. Completely. As if Jake had never been there. Because that's the truth.
Footprints from the desertsand... a ruined body from the darkness can vanish without causing any big problem.
But it's not so simple with memories.

aurora
03-08-2008, 01:28 PM
But it's not so simple with memories.
Why not? memories are nothing but chemical footprints left in cells, nothing more nothing less. If Jakes body vanished then the memories 'should' vanish just as easily, both are completely organic and thus volatile in nature.

Letti
03-08-2008, 01:41 PM
But it's not so simple with memories.
Why not? memories are nothing but chemical footprints left in cells, nothing more nothing less. If Jakes body vanished then the memories 'should' vanish just as easily, both are completely organic and thus volatile in nature.

I don't think it's so easy with memories. Because yeah maybe memories are just footprints left in cells but look at the emotional side of it. If we look at the human body and mind the way we look at a built-up system of a robot we should say that yes, memories should vanish as easily as footprints vanish from sand. But I think it's much more complex than that. We have emotions and our memories give life to our really deep and complex emotions. And it happens that we lose some certain memory /because of time or an accident/ but we still have the emotion OR we lose an emotion - we don't feel it anymore - but we have the memory of it...
Still these are just guesses. Nothing is true or false because we can't try it out. We can't change someone's past to see if he gets into a paradox because of some remained memories and feelings but I think it's possible that it could happen.

aurora
03-08-2008, 04:29 PM
Sorry I was just trying to bait you and others on that one. I agree, having done the dead thing memories stay with us even sans-physical body so memory HAS to be something more. (Nuff said on that issue from me)

For me the final answer all deals on if the original Jake was from Keystone Earth, since obviously he was not I think that there is a potential of a body due to the infinite possibilities of near infinite multi-verses.
However I personally don't think that there is a body down there. Walter already took a dead Jake and made him alive once and could have easily done it twice after all we have no idea where he was at the actual time of Jakes fall. Its highly possible he took Jake and moved him into another multi-verse earth, maybe even Keystone earth. But if he did that what happened to the Jake that was already part of that Earth?

ATG
03-08-2008, 10:04 PM
I absolutely agree and really can't even see how it could be another Jake.


Totally. There are other worlds than these.

Matt
03-09-2008, 08:05 AM
Which to me means there could totally be another Jake. :lol:

Jean
03-09-2008, 08:30 AM
...or the same one. That's the paradox threatening to destroy the world[s] better than any unefficient gnawing on those beams

mia/susannah
03-09-2008, 08:37 AM
i think it is the same Jake. It has been along time since I read the beginning of the dark tower series. I am starting the series again now. I don't think I can put any real imput on this question until I reread the series. Good question though.

Matt
03-09-2008, 09:11 AM
I'm fine with the same one its just a strange thing for me to wrap my mind around.

I remember the little drawing Roland did in the sand, looked a little like the tracing of an eye without the pupil in the middle. One line opens into two and gets wider around a circle, closes into one on the other side.

The question to me is that Jake either was or was not there. If Roland saved him from the push then it seems like when they were back together outside Lud, the memories would fix themselves as separate. Because that's what happened. No Jake at the Way Station. That means same Jake, no body under the mountains.

And if that is the case, then what happened to everything he was involved in? Perhaps this was the loop before?

alinda
03-09-2008, 12:03 PM
THIS is why I believe in everything, my friends... everything is.




[I think it all happened.


I wouldn't advice anyone to go hunting for it anyway, or for any other conclusive artefacts of time loop aftermath. Paradox may grow exponentially, and I am afraid nobody can know what it might lead to.


wise words.


,but down the rabbit hole we go Alice. :lol:[/QUOTE]

Unfound One
03-11-2008, 10:49 PM
i'm glad i found this thread because i'm reading waste lands again and read this part last night...
here's how i see it: in my mind it's the same physical jake everywhere.

as in, jake was living in new york in 1977, was pushed into the street, died, was "re-born" into the desert, met roland, fell and died in roland's world, was thrown back into his former life a couple weeks before he "died" the first time, was forced to re-live those weeks knowing what was coming, was denied his "death," found a way back into mid-world a couple days later.
i see it all as the same physical body, just like a time-travel thing....
so, in my mind, there would be no body under the mountains, and jake actually experienced death twice.

the part this doesn't explain is why it's confusing to them both...
in my scenario it makes sense that jake would be confused because it's a sequence of events that happened.
but not roland, because roland would have ACTUALLY experienced finding jake in the desert, letting him fall, and bringing him back.
so where does his confusion come in? when he changes the fact that jake actually died in 1977 and in that case he wouldn't be in the desert... right?

dang, i think i just confused myself even more. did any of that make sense?

Candice Dionysus
03-11-2008, 10:57 PM
That makes some sense but what I am hearing is that there is no body of a young boy under the mountain?

Somehow at the bottom of the fall he returned? Or it never happened--I'm not sure.

However, on more reflection of the original question (because this thing about Jake poses all sorts), I do seem to remember that he "relived" it somehow. And I also seem to remember a place where he tells Roland..."you dropped me" right after they are reunited in this book.

I'm not totally sure how it could work either but I think the question about Jakes actual death under the mountain is somehow key.

Ok, I'm not sure if someone mentioned this or not, but the whole reason Jake and Roland were going crazy was because when Roland had to get the medicine to make him better, did he not take over the body of the guy who pushed Jake into traffic to begin with? And that being the case, he also prevented Jake from being pushed, which prevented him from ever ending up at the waystation, which created the paradox that plagued them both.

Jake was technically never with Roland, and so he never fell, which means that no, his body is not there in the mountains because Roland went back and stopped him from ever being a part of the story told in The Gunslinger in the first place. He changed history, took Jake right out of it. So even though we read it, when we read Roland going back and preventing Jake from getting hit by that car, he made everything we read about Jake in the first book false information, but both characters still remember the events, thus the paradox.

That being said, the fact that they were both going crazy means that they do both in fact remembered the events that Roland prevented from happening, because by all truth the events should have happened.

Unfound One
03-11-2008, 11:18 PM
Jake was technically never with Roland, and so he never fell, which means that no, his body is not there in the mountains because Roland went back and stopped him from ever being a part of the story told in The Gunslinger in the first place. He changed history, took Jake right out of it. So even though we read it, when we read Roland going back and preventing Jake from getting hit by that car, he made everything we read about Jake in the first book false information, but both characters still remember the events, thus the paradox.

That being said, the fact that they were both going crazy means that they do both in fact remembered the events that Roland prevented from happening, because by all truth the events should have happened.

ahhh this makes a lot of sense.
i still don't want to believe that the events of book one NEVER HAPPENED.
i still see it as a chain of events, but i guess i need to change how i think about it?
it's so confusing!

Letti
03-16-2008, 10:25 PM
Jake was technically never with Roland, and so he never fell, which means that no, his body is not there in the mountains because Roland went back and stopped him from ever being a part of the story told in The Gunslinger in the first place. He changed history, took Jake right out of it. So even though we read it, when we read Roland going back and preventing Jake from getting hit by that car, he made everything we read about Jake in the first book false information, but both characters still remember the events, thus the paradox.

That being said, the fact that they were both going crazy means that they do both in fact remembered the events that Roland prevented from happening, because by all truth the events should have happened.

ahhh this makes a lot of sense.
i still don't want to believe that the events of book one NEVER HAPPENED.
i still see it as a chain of events, but i guess i need to change how i think about it?
it's so confusing!

Just try to imagine how they felt if you yourself find it very confusing.

Unfound One
03-16-2008, 11:04 PM
wow.
that really puts me in my place...
if jake or roland were here i'd cry their pardon.

Ka-tet
03-17-2008, 05:56 AM
Well here goes, you guys gotta remember its been a few years since i read the serise. And wastelands was exactly my favourite book of the serise.

I belive in essence it was the same jake, not physically. The jake pulled through the door in the wastelands "expericanced" (or so i remember) in dreams or otherwise what other jake went through, didnt he? Its technically the same thing....i think....

aurora
03-17-2008, 06:35 AM
I gave up trying to figure this one out based on physical possibility realizing that 'science' would never find an explanation since it was magic that caused a dead Jake to appear in Midworld in the first place an undoubtedly magic that caused Jake to reappear in New York, his original New York and BEFORE his death in the first place.

Meaning I now conclude its the same Jake, Jake was in Midworld, Jake did die under the mountain but heres the interesting part I now say there is a body under the mountain. Why? Well after Jake died and was transported to Midworld there was also a body left laying dead in the streets of New York! The power of magic transcends the power of scientific explanation. The mere exists of the Tower itself proves that possibility.

Brice
03-17-2008, 06:56 AM
or maybe different sciences are at play when you deal with the points where dimensions join?

Well, not different sciences, but different rules.

Ka-tet
03-17-2008, 07:38 AM
Okay now im confused xD

In idiot speak please aurora?

Jean
03-17-2008, 07:48 AM
Meaning I now conclude its the same Jake, Jake was in Midworld, Jake did die under the mountain but heres the interesting part I now say there is a body under the mountain. Why? Well after Jake died and was transported to Midworld there was also a body left laying dead in the streets of New York! The power of magic transcends the power of scientific explanation. The mere exists of the Tower itself proves that possibility.
Precisely. Although I am not sure there is magic involved here; maybe just thinking in more dimensions that we're used to.

Have just seen Brice saying approximately the same; well, great minds and all that. The main point, however, is there is body under the mountain, and that would involve more thinking around the corners and through the walls than we've been taught to do (it might come easier to those who have any religion than to confirmed materialists and positivists, although purely scientific thinking has known its moments of inspiration, too).

jayson
03-17-2008, 09:00 AM
Precisely. Although I am not sure there is magic involved here; maybe just thinking in more dimensions that we're used to.

Have just seen Brice saying approximately the same; well, great minds and all that. The main point, however, is there is body under the mountain, and that would involve more thinking around the corners and through the walls than we've been taught to do (it might come easier to those who have any religion than to confirmed materialists and positivists, although purely scientific thinking has known its moments of inspiration, too).

thanks, now i don't have to answer anymore other than to say "what jean just said"

Brainslinger
03-17-2008, 09:24 AM
Whilst I understood the reason for the splitting in the characters memories I didn't really buy why the splitting would have been rectified when they both were reunited. Is it just the simple fact that their memory of each other on that previous time line was confirmed?

As for whether or not it was the same Jake... the fact of the paradox suggests it was. However ....

later books spoilers...

Wolves of the Calla suggests that they are seperate Jakes.

That being said, it could be explained to some extent by the whole quantum universe theory where seperate universes are spawned considering what decision is made. Therefore the two Jakes are now seperate, one alive, one dead, but before Roland saved Jake by killing Mort they were the same. Of course I'm not sure why the save Jake would have the memories of the other (regardless of whether or not they are the same, since he was saved before he met Roland) but that could be put down to Ka-tet and his power in the touch coming into play.

Matt
03-17-2008, 09:30 AM
I think they were all different in the infinite reality of the Tower.

Although, the idea that his body stayed in the street in the first instance is interesting...but we don't know for a fact that is true do we?

Ves'Ka Gan
06-03-2008, 01:14 PM
That makes some sense but what I am hearing is that there is no body of a young boy under the mountain?

Somehow at the bottom of the fall he returned? Or it never happened--I'm not sure.

However, on more reflection of the original question (because this thing about Jake poses all sorts), I do seem to remember that he "relived" it somehow. And I also seem to remember a place where he tells Roland..."you dropped me" right after they are reunited in this book.

I'm not totally sure how it could work either but I think the question about Jakes actual death under the mountain is somehow key.

But when Roland goes through the third door, he saves Jake from being thrown in front of the Cadillac (in some way--we know that there was issues about it not being the "right" day, but we know he didn't die under the wheels of a car).

If he doesn't die in the streets of New York, he can't go to the Way Station, and Roland can't drop him. That's where the duality that causes Jake's insanity occurs. He remembers dying in New York and remembers all the events afterward, but his brain is arguing with him. Even in his "My Understanding of the Truth" poem, he says that Roland dropped him.

I believe that he did die when Roland dropped him...

Asharak
09-26-2012, 07:50 AM
Having just reread "The Drawing of the Three" and "The Wastelands" it’s pretty clear that it is the same Jake, it’s not really given any room for the possibility that it isn’t. And Jake (just like Roland) remembers everything from both versions of the timeline. The entire reason Roland and Jake are going insane in book 3 is that Roland saved his Jake in book 2 which is the same Jake as in book 1 and 3. There wouldn’t be a paradox otherwise.

rico567
11-01-2014, 07:41 AM
Yeah, this episode seems clear enough, given King's right to fictional license. Both Schrödinger's Gunslinger and his boy have what amount to split personalities, which King certainly spends enough time describing, presumably brought on by the original incident in The Gunslinger when Roland abandons Jake. It's driving them nuts, and they are both cured when Jake is pulled through the door into Roland's world. But nothing it said about memory, so we may believe that Jake remembers the events of both tracks of the "split" period.