Imagine that your daughter has been killed in a car crash

[ATG]

You then find out within 24 hours of the accident that pictures of your daughter have been posted on sites like bangedup and ogrish. When I say pictures of your daughter I mean pictures of her insides, half of her face...etc.

Then you find out that it was a Highway Patrol officer (http://cbs13.com/local/CHP.Nikki.Castouras.2.476028.html) that posted the pictures.

Apparently, if you or your loved ones are killed in a crash or murdered there are pretty good odds you or them will end up as a gag for freaks on the internet, courtesy of your government employees. Where do you figure those sites get most of their pictures?





The argument against the suit:

Reich and co-defendant Thomas O'Donnell, who reportedly still works as a CHP dispatcher, cite in court papers their First Amendment rights to free speech in being responsible for the worldwide distribution of the photos through cyberspace.

Nikki's right to privacy also ended with her death, said Schlueter, citing case law.

O'Donnell has admitted to e-mailing the photos to his home computer, but said in court papers that he had the right to do so within the scope of his employment.

The argument for the suit:

An attorney for the Catsouras family said CHP regulations were violated by the photo leak, and that the agency and dispatchers must be held accountable. Accident-scene photos are supposed to be used only for investigative purposes.

"To hide behind First Amendment rights is completely wrong,'' said Tyler Offenhauser, of Bremer Whyte Brown & O'Meara in Newport Beach. "There's no public interest in these photos.''



Personally, I think those two officers should be killed with a claw hammer by a mob.


http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=300948762
http://www.nypost.com/seven/02162007/entertainment/untangling_a_web_of_lies_entertainment_maureen_cal lahan.htm

[Telynn]

Personally, I think those two officers should be killed with a claw hammer by a mob

Agreed.

[alinda]

:nope: :arg: I cant stand it, thats horrible! My undying sympathy to her family, and I'd be happy to take care of those idiots, do you think it would be ok with their kin if afterwards we post they're photos? :nope:

[jayson]

... I'd be happy to take care of those idiots, do you think it would be ok with their kin if afterwards we post they're photos? :nope:

my thoughts exactly. these people are vultures and should hope that what goes around doesn't come around.

[ATG]

Curious. Thomas O'Donnell, the guy who released the photos. His picture was all over the O.C. registers website, and now that the trial is coming there is no trace of them.

Seems he has been getting death threats. Too bad, you should have seen his beady little sociopathic eyes.

[John Blaze]

Personally, I think those two officers should be killed with a claw hammer by a mob

Agreed.
Ditto, what an asshole.

[Randall Flagg]

I believe in First Ammendment rights, but would argue that they should be terminated from their employment. Rights as an individual and rights as an employee are two different things.
As far as posting ghoulish pictures, perhaps I am a bit thick skinned, but I simply wouldn't view the pictures, therefore they would hold no power over me. If others wish to feed their appetite for grisly death pictures then so be it.

[jayson]

I believe in First Ammendment rights, but would argue that they should be terminated from their employment. Rights as an individual and rights as an employee are two different things.
As far as posting ghoulish pictures, perhaps I am a bit thick skinned, but I simply wouldn't view the pictures, therefore they would hold no power over me. If others wish to feed their appetite for grisly death pictures then so be it.

I agree with you in a legal sense. I don't think there should be legal repurcussions for their actions aside from the termination. However, there is still the matter of personal justice and karmic retribtuion. All I'm saying is I doubt I'd convict anyone of assaulting the guy if I were on a jury.

[Telynn]

I believe in First Ammendment rights, but would argue that they should be terminated from their employment. Rights as an individual and rights as an employee are two different things.
As far as posting ghoulish pictures, perhaps I am a bit thick skinned, but I simply wouldn't view the pictures, therefore they would hold no power over me. If others wish to feed their appetite for grisly death pictures then so be it.

I saw this story a while ago, and if I remember right the family actually had people e-mailing them the pictures. They had to completely keep their other kids off the internet altogether.

[Brice]

This is the first I've ever heard of anything like this....including those web sites. I had no idea they existed. I'm pretty much for all kinds of freedom of speech, but I think it carries a degree of responsibility too. I'll just say there is something seriously fucked up with the people who post pictures on those sites, the people who go to those sites for "entertainment" , and the people running them. Anything that happens to any of them I could overlook if I were on a jury.

[jayson]

This is the first I've ever heard of anything like this....including those web sites. I had no idea they existed. I'm pretty much for all kinds of freedom of speech, but I think it carries a degree of responsibility too. I'll just say there is something seriously fucked up with the people who post pictures on those sites, the people who go to those sites for "entertainment" , and the people running them. Anything that happens to any of them I could overlook if I were on a jury.

it's seems another sign that we as a society are just a vomitorium or two away from late-era Rome.

[Brice]

Very very true. :(

[John Blaze]

This is the first I've ever heard of anything like this....including those web sites. I had no idea they existed. I'm pretty much for all kinds of freedom of speech, but I think it carries a degree of responsibility too. I'll just say there is something seriously fucked up with the people who post pictures on those sites, the people who go to those sites for "entertainment" , and the people running them. Anything that happens to any of them I could overlook if I were on a jury.

it's seems another sign that we as a society are just a vomitorium or two away from late-era Rome.

My english teacher in high school used to always say that history shows that the more degraded an empire gets, the closer it is to its demise.

Doesn't bode well for these times we live in.

[jayson]

This is the first I've ever heard of anything like this....including those web sites. I had no idea they existed. I'm pretty much for all kinds of freedom of speech, but I think it carries a degree of responsibility too. I'll just say there is something seriously fucked up with the people who post pictures on those sites, the people who go to those sites for "entertainment" , and the people running them. Anything that happens to any of them I could overlook if I were on a jury.

it's seems another sign that we as a society are just a vomitorium or two away from late-era Rome.

My english teacher in high school used to always say that history shows that the more degraded an empire gets, the closer it is to its demise.

Doesn't bode well for these times we live in.

sad but true my friend.

[ZoNeSeeK]

There is this incredibly alarming trend occuring with the advent of massively available online media, whether its using mobile phones or digital cameras over streaming audio or slideshows on the web: People exploiting other people's misery by broadcasting it to others. Diem was reading out an article regarding the number of cases cropping up over the last few years where young women (and occasionally young men) have been drugged, gang raped and its been filmed on a mobile camera or digital camera, and then shared publically.

Of course, crimes like these aren't new, but its the recording and distribution of footage which is. It magnifies the already significant trauma to the victim (or in this car accident case, the girl's family) 100-fold. This broadcasting of horrific events for the entertainment of others really needs to be examined by judicial authorities as it exacerbates harm to victims.

In my opinion, anyone that views footage of gang rape scenes and doesn't alert police is just as fucking guilty. In the majority of these cases, the victim's life is effectively ruined, and in a minority of cases, the victims suicide.

So not only are perpetrators bragging about their crimes, they gloat about them over repeated viewings of the footage. Honestly, I don't care if they happen to be 16 years of age - this is some serious pathological behaviour going on and they need to be tried as adults. I don't care if you havent finished school yet and mummy is wailing about her little boy: her little boy is a monster and his parents have raised a rapist.

[mia/susannah]

You then find out within 24 hours of the accident that pictures of your daughter have been posted on sites like bangedup and ogrish. When I say pictures of your daughter I mean pictures of her insides, half of her face...etc.

Then you find out that it was a Highway Patrol officer (http://cbs13.com/local/CHP.Nikki.Castouras.2.476028.html) that posted the pictures.

Apparently, if you or your loved ones are killed in a crash or murdered there are pretty good odds you or them will end up as a gag for freaks on the internet, courtesy of your government employees. Where do you figure those sites get most of their pictures?





The argument against the suit:

Reich and co-defendant Thomas O'Donnell, who reportedly still works as a CHP dispatcher, cite in court papers their First Amendment rights to free speech in being responsible for the worldwide distribution of the photos through cyberspace.

Nikki's right to privacy also ended with her death, said Schlueter, citing case law.

O'Donnell has admitted to e-mailing the photos to his home computer, but said in court papers that he had the right to do so within the scope of his employment.

The argument for the suit:

An attorney for the Catsouras family said CHP regulations were violated by the photo leak, and that the agency and dispatchers must be held accountable. Accident-scene photos are supposed to be used only for investigative purposes.

"To hide behind First Amendment rights is completely wrong,'' said Tyler Offenhauser, of Bremer Whyte Brown & O'Meara in Newport Beach. "There's no public interest in these photos.''



Personally, I think those two officers should be killed with a claw hammer by a mob.


http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=300948762
http://www.nypost.com/seven/02162007/entertainment/untangling_a_web_of_lies_entertainment_maureen_cal lahan.htm

I agree with you, they should be killed with a claw hammer by a mob but they
need to be tortured first. Can you imagine what the poor family of that girl went through. That really makes my blood boil.:angry:

[HanzouNorak]

In my opinion, anyone that views footage of gang rape scenes and doesn't alert police is just as fucking guilty.
unless you've got an adress, its rather pointless. whoevers hosting the site would be a better person to tell, unless its the person who commited these crimes, at which point one would report the site to police.
now to my post,
i, as usual, cant really say anything that hasn't been covered, my opinion is obviously that its horrible. god theres time i want to ask why, why would you do this? but i cant, why? because i already know, some people, many infact, are constantly atracted to horror and voilence in this manner, and they go trolling for it over the internet. this, in turn, helps it ciruclulate all over the fucking net. its really a horrible thing, will it stop? maybe in about a hundered years or so, people will keep doing this as surely as war will continue.

[Mattrick]

My english teacher in high school used to always say that history shows that the more degraded an empire gets, the closer it is to its demise.

Doesn't bode well for these times we live in.

America has always had a sick of obsession with violence and has a history of it. The Salem Witch Trials, Hiroshima, Civil War, Vietnam. Even now with school shootings. Guns are everywhere in America, violence is everywhere, this is merely a more disturbing representation of a nations dark history. Of course if it's there, people will look at it, I know I've seen such pictures before. It is an indication to how desensitized some of us have become to the point where human suffering is entertainment.

[Armand St Pierre]

it's seems another sign that we as a society are just a vomitorium or two away from late-era Rome.

Uh Huh (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/80fa0a2c-49ef-11dc-9ffe-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1)

[She-Oy]

This is a slight diversion from this particular incident, but it's along the same morality line (at least I think)...

So I have been wanting to go see the "Bodies" exhibit that is currently on tour here in Las Vegas for a few months now. I keep forgetting about it, but last week I was reminded of my wanting to see it when I kept noticing ABC's 20/20 doing a story on it. I was solidly prepared to take the whole family (Drew included, even though my mom and sister thought I was nuts because he's only 9...but he loves stuff like that, so I was using my parental intuition that he would be ok and enjoy it).

So I eagerly watched 20/20 to firm up plans to go. But that's not what I got out of the program...

Turns out most of the bodies are Asian. And there's a really good chance that these bodies are those of executed prisoners taken without permission of themselves or their families. Apparently the people in charge of the "Bodies" exhibit in America pay the Chinese government $200 per body with no questions asked. They are shipped here breaking just about every law known to Americans regarding human remains. And it's done by calling them "plastic for medical research". But they aren't plastic when they are on the ship, they are just dead bodies chilled to prevent decomposure.

If anyone here knows anything about the Asian religions and their treatment of their dead, they would know this type of thing is a BIG no-no. And here we are, hungry Americans starved for morbidity and entertainment paying upwards $30 a ticket to this huge corporation who pockets the money for their own gain (not medical research).

They actually interviewed the German scientist/artist who invented and started the plastification of bodies and who has his own displays and he actually wept on camera stating that was not his intention for his invention. All of the German's bodies ARE donated by either families or the subjects themselves...not Asians.

So basically I was appalled by this. Not the subject matter, because I think they are fantastically intriguing, but by the means of procuring the bodies themselves.

It sickens me that we as Americans would allow major companies to profit from something so low. You might as well charge admission to local morgues for people to gawk at if this is the case.

[ZoNeSeeK]

[quote=ZoNeSeeK;110596]
In my opinion, anyone that views footage of gang rape scenes and doesn't alert police is just as fucking guilty.
unless you've got an adress, its rather pointless. whoevers hosting the site would be a better person to tell, unless its the person who commited these crimes, at which point one would report the site to police.


Sorry I'll clarify - more on people viewing footage on someone's mobile phone, not on the internet. Anonymous viewing on the internet is almost impossible to police like you said, and its the responsibility of the host to make sure they have their content under control. Some of these drug/rape incidinces reported the perpetrators showing their footage to others who did nothing about it.

[CRinVA]

I am a decent moral person. Yes, I know that is my opinion, but that is the only opinion that matters in this case. I am afraid that if this atrocity happened to me and those were pictures of my daughter, I am not sure that I would continue to be a decent moral person. I could not look at the pictures, but knowing they are pasted all over the internet would be too much. I might have to take the injustice into my own hands (legally or otherwise) - I know that would be wrong, but I think that emotion would totally overcome sanity at this point.

My heart goes out to the family that this occurred to! Freedom of Speech be damned - this is just not right!

[Storyslinger]

Personally, I think those two officers should be killed with a claw hammer by a mob.


Exactly

[Jean]

Personally, I think those two officers should be killed with a claw hammer by a mob.


Exactly
Precisely.

Here in Russia anything can be said about anything or anybody using any media (any attempt to put any restraints on at least the most indecent or dangerous things are immediately met with cries of Democracy Being Murdered). Not only those dead, but also those still alive. When one of our very best, much loved and respected actors was dying of cancer, he was haunted and harrassed by media all the time. His days were numbered out loud on TV screens (mind you, we don't have commercial channels... we have about 30 or so channels, most of them so-called "independent", that is dependent on business groups, and they are all free and come to all houses indiscriminately). Moreover, legends were created about the Sure Medicine he is taking, and some murderous quacks made a buck on people credibility (medicines can be advertised on our TV, too. By anyone who, having enough money, wants to push any hangman's finger powder). Once the actor summoned the last of his strength and appeared on TV. He begged people at least not to believe those "miraculous cures" they were being pushed. Soon he died.

When Chechen terrorists kept hostages in that theater in the center of Moscow, the TV happily showed our snipers on the roofs and shared any details of the counter-terrorist operation they have been able to pick. On TV. While the hostages were there, in the theater, praying for salvation. How many of their deaths are on the conscience of those "reporters"? And weren't those actions just plain treason?

[Storyslinger]

Wow, that is complete bs Jean. I can't believe that is aloud allowed.

[Jean]

I have a question, then... in your country, do they show the victims of cruel real life murders on TV? Here are some specifications:

1. On channels everyone can watch for free / without any special appliances?
2. On prime time?
3. Before 10 pm?
4. In all news?
5. In special programs dedicated to savoring gory details of recent murders? These may also be called "journalists' investigation", or whatever
6. In special programs dedicated to the most gory and perverted murders of the past? Camouflaging as "unknown truth about [insert period of history]"
7. Ditto about the most perverted murderers? Camouflaging as "interesting but previously unknown people"?
8. If you switch on your TV and start [sorry, forgot the right word now] clicking the remote back and forth, are you guaranteed to see at least one of items 5, 6, or 7? That is, are you guaranteed to see spilled guts and dismembered bodies on your TV screen any time you randomly change channels (on the average, third or fourth click)?

If the majority of your answers is "no", you're much better off than we here... and we are the hostages of wrongly perceived freedom of speech. Desperately wrongly perceived.

P.S. All of the above - kid victims including, people. Kid victims including.

[Storyslinger]

They talk about them and give it public agknowlegdement, which I think is wrong, but they don't show actual pictures.

[Brice]

I have a question, then... in your country, do they show the victims of cruel real life murders on TV? Here are some specifications:

1. On channels everyone can watch for free / without any special appliances?
2. On prime time?
3. Before 10 pm?
4. In all news?
5. In special programs dedicated to savoring gory details of recent murders? These may also be called "journalists' investigation", or whatever
6. In special programs dedicated to the most gory and perverted murders of the past? Camouflaging as "unknown truth about [insert period of history]"
7. Ditto about the most perverted murderers? Camouflaging as "interesting but previously unknown people"?
8. If you switch on your TV and start [sorry, forgot the right word now] clicking the remote back and forth, are you guaranteed to see at least one of items 5, 6, or 7? That is, are you guaranteed to see spilled guts and dismembered bodies on your TV screen any time you randomly change channels (on the average, third or fourth click)?

If the majority of your answers is "no", you're much better off than we here... and we are the hostages of wrongly perceived freedom of speech. Desperately wrongly perceived.

P.S. All of the above - kid victims including, people. Kid victims including.

No, it's not quite that bad here, but it really wouldn't surprise me either.

[Brice]

They talk about them and give it public agknowlegdement, which I think is wrong, but they don't show actual pictures.


With the exception of war footage, no?

[Storyslinger]

They techniquely don't show actual pictures on television.

[Brice]

They techniquely don't show actual pictures on television.

Hmm... I don't know man. We saw some pretty graphic stuff on the news right after the Iraq war began.

[Storyslinger]

Most of the people who posted that stuff lost their jobs too.

[LadyHitchhiker]

Well I know that when our little girl died she died of meningitis. Her veins were black and blue and she was swollen so she didn't even look like her, regardless of what her idiot grandparents thought "oh she looks like she's sleeping". No she didn't. She looked monstrous. It was only after the funeral arrangements that those geniuses at the morgue made her look like herself again. I couldn't imagine how hurt I would be to have her picture plastered all over the newspapers in the state she was when she died.

On another note of morbidity, her grandparents insist on cluttering up her gravesite with cake, flowers, balloons, toys, etc.,. so there's not any room to stand there. Is there anything my husband and I can legally do to clean up the gravesite? I'd love to leave a note but they already don't like me because I'm the "stepmother" and I know it wouldn't make a difference. They throw away the flowers I bring out there, as if only their stuff should matter...

[Daghain]

I'm sorry to hear about your daughter, LadyHitchhiker.

I don't think there's anything you can do about the gravesite - does the cemetery have perpetual care? Usually they throw that stuff out every week or so.

[LadyHitchhiker]

Yeah but they're not going to throw away 30 stuffed animals... maybe the cakes they buy her or the candy they bring there for halloween, etc., I just think that I should be able to go and bring her a bouquet of flowers every once and a while and not have to stand in the road and launch it at the mess and hope it sticks... It's not just the front, it's behind it as well. And they planted a stupid maple tree and put ornaments all over it which is stupid because maple trees shed horribly and that's even more of a mess to clean up there...

[Daghain]

Argh. That sucks. I don't get why people do that, either. I would think a better gesture (and one that would do more good) is to donate some time or money to a charity in the person's name.

[LadyHitchhiker]

Exactly! Like we donate to the animal shelter in her name, and the meningitis foundation. Isn't that better than basically buying garbage to set at a garbage heap? They go down and read to her three times a day as well even though they have 4 other grandkids. She was our one and only little girl.. you'd think they could even share a little room for us to grieve but it seems like they want the world to think they're the only ones that care...

[Daghain]

People can certainly be weird like that. When my cousin's husband died, his family basically did the same thing.

[HanzouNorak]

I offer my condolences,
what does your husband have to say about it?

[Patrick]

So sorry to hear about your little girl, LadyHitchhiker. :(

[Randall Flagg]

Apologies to ATG for slightly turning this thread into consolation.

Ladyhitchhiker, my condolences.

No one can truly say "I know how you feel", but I think I have an idea. My wife and I lost a daughter to SIDS. She was 2 months old at passing. My heart goes out to you.
Love and Light.

[ZoNeSeeK]

Jean: Here, we have censorship laws and a censorship board that monitors content for appropriateness and to adhere to privacy laws etc. Everyone has Free-to-air TV (usually about 6 or 7 stations) and then there's satellite (i.e. cable) tv with upwards of 40 or 50 channels on it, which you have to pay for. All of them have to adhere to australian censorship laws, even news articles etc. They are also required to warn viewers if something being shown may have a negative impact on some viewers due to religious sensitivity or historical sensitivity - i.e. Aboriginal people find it abhorrent to view images of people who have passed away, or if its not necessarily horrific but disturbing footage of prisoners of war from a war zone, they may state a warning for people who have been victims of war and the footage may affect them moreso than others, usually something like "And a warning - the following footage may be disturbing to some viewers".

Its seen from a legal ramifications point of view - broadcasters have a duty of care to the public and if they break that they are wide open for litigation. Also, any reporting or news medium that jeopardises a police investigation is liable and could be charged and fined.

Speaking of news reporting: did you realise (in the US anyway, not sure about anywhere else) that there is no law or policy which states that news reporters have to report the truth?

[Jean]

thank you Zone! http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif it's very important information to me. Here media go into histerical fits about murdering freedom of speech whenever any limitations are about to be introduced - so we still have none and are not very likely to have them in nearest future.

Please, my friends from the USA or Canada: how is it with censorship in your countries?

[HanzouNorak]

Jean: Here, we have censorship laws and a censorship board that monitors content for appropriateness and to adhere to privacy laws etc. Everyone has Free-to-air TV (usually about 6 or 7 stations) and then there's satellite (i.e. cable) tv with upwards of 40 or 50 channels on it, which you have to pay for. All of them have to adhere to australian censorship laws, even news articles etc. They are also required to warn viewers if something being shown may have a negative impact on some viewers due to religious sensitivity or historical sensitivity - i.e. Aboriginal people find it abhorrent to view images of people who have passed away, or if its not necessarily horrific but disturbing footage of prisoners of war from a war zone, they may state a warning for people who have been victims of war and the footage may affect them moreso than others, usually something like "And a warning - the following footage may be disturbing to some viewers".

Its seen from a legal ramifications point of view - broadcasters have a duty of care to the public and if they break that they are wide open for litigation. Also, any reporting or news medium that jeopardises a police investigation is liable and could be charged and fined.

Speaking of news reporting: did you realise (in the US anyway, not sure about anywhere else) that there is no law or policy which states that news reporters have to report the truth?

Alright, thats it, im movin to Austrailia.

[Telynn]

Freedom of Speech is a very precious thing. But with that comes responsibility. Unfortunately we in the US have been ignoring the responsibility aspect horribly.

[LadyHitchhiker]

I offer my condolences,
what does your husband have to say about it?
My husband won't even go because he thinks it's so ugly and ridiculous what they've been doing...

And thank you all for your condolences...

On a personal note, something not many people know, my father saved me from SIDS... I couldn't imagine actually losing my baby in such a tragic way as that though (not that ours wasn't tragic, but it was different)... I grieve with thee.