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obscurejude
01-26-2008, 08:22 PM
When given the opportunity, I wrote (and am still writing) several papers on Browning that revolved in some way around Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came. Has anyone else interacted with the text academically or otherwise? What do you think of King's interpretation of Browning's characters and themes?

ATG
01-27-2008, 12:14 AM
It seems he may have drawn on more than Browning;

http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=1970

Daghain
01-27-2008, 11:15 PM
I'm generally not a big Browning fan (and as an English major, I completely expect to be struck by lightning for that!) and I unfortunately left college before I became a DT geek, or I totally would have gone there.

That said, I think King got the essence of it, at least. I often like to joke, since I've written poetry, that we sit in class and analyze all this poetry, the deep meanings, etc. - what if the poet just wrote it because it rhymed? Or because it sounded silly/romantic/dramatic? I would LMAO if anyone picked apart my stuff, because 50% of the time there is NO meaning behind it.

So, what if Browning was just goofing around, wrote this poem, and we're all analyzing it to death? And then King comes along and writes a seven book series based on it? And Browning's rolling in his grave laughing because he was just entertaining himself for an hour or two?

Hmmm....:lol:

OchrisO
01-27-2008, 11:25 PM
Given the nature of Victorian poets in general, and some of the stuff written about poets of the time by people like Wordsworth in the Introduction to Lyrical Ballads, it is rather unlikely that Browning wrote much of anything just because it sounded nice(though Victorian poets prior to Wordworth certainly wanted to make sure that it did sound nice).

Daghain
01-27-2008, 11:36 PM
I'll agree with that. But don't you think they took themselves WAAYY too seriously? :lol:

But you have to wonder, maybe Browning just pulled one out of his ass, and look at all the kudos it got him. I personally would LMAO at that.

As Chris alluded, poets of that time were all about the seriousness of their stuff, so chances are Browning put some deep thought into the poem.

Food for thought, though. :)

obscurejude
01-28-2008, 10:49 AM
I'll agree with that. But don't you think they took themselves WAAYY too seriously? :lol:

But you have to wonder, maybe Browning just pulled one out of his ass, and look at all the kudos it got him. I personally would LMAO at that.

As Chris alluded, poets of that time were all about the seriousness of their stuff, so chances are Browning put some deep thought into the poem.

Food for thought, though. :)

For the purpose of this thread, let's assume that he did intend a few things and lets go from there. I don't think he pulled it out of his ass (for one, Iambic pentameter in stanzaic quatrains takes a little intention). I want to dissect Browning. That's the purpose of this thread. I have never gotten the opportunity to talk about Browning with DT junkies. So, lets do it.

obscurejude
01-28-2008, 10:51 AM
It seems he may have drawn on more than Browning;

http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=1970

ATG,

I appreciate your comment, but I want this thread to specifically talk about Browning if it pleases ya. King drew from a plethora of sources from the Beatles to Harry Potter. I want to talk about Browning.

obscurejude
01-28-2008, 10:54 AM
Daghain,

Also, Browning was one of the few who were taken seriously by others within their own lifetime. The Browning Society was formed several years before his death and continued to celebrate him and function into the twentieth century. You are certainly entitled not to like him, but this thread is more or less dedicated to him. Also, remember that it was Browning's wife that was kind of the rock star poet. Robert, was always in his wife's shadow. The fact that scholars still recognized his genius says a lot about the depth of his work. I think it was others that took him seriously, rather than him self. I detect a real lack of pretentiousness in his work.

Daghain
01-28-2008, 02:03 PM
Ok, my bad. Never post while drinking. I'll see if I can redeem myself a little bit.

I was interested in DT7 when King "gave" Roland the poem. Some of the passages he'd quoted (such as the one about Dandelo) I'd never even thought of being that character. I guess I always assumed the person who "lied in every word" was the Man in Black. Once I saw King's interpretation I could see where he got it, especially with regard to the second stanza. I found it interesting, though, that that was the first stanza and we don't see Dandelo until the last book. So I think originally I was thinking the poem followed the entire story, but it seems more to me now that it was looking backward instead of forward.

obscurejude
01-29-2008, 10:05 AM
Good observations Daghain. I have a lengthy reply in mind but can't get to it until I get home from school tonight. Consider yourself redeemed.

Daghain
01-29-2008, 10:25 AM
Why, thank you. :)

I'm interested to see what you have to say.

ZoNeSeeK
01-30-2008, 10:58 PM
Daghain: we discussed that in Lit aswell - overanalysis of texts. Is the author weaving in subtle symbology here or did he just run out of fucking ideas? :)

obscurejude
01-30-2008, 11:06 PM
Why is everybody so fucking antagonistic to talking about poetry?

obscurejude
01-30-2008, 11:13 PM
I thought that I might find some DT fans who would jump at the chance to talk about this poem. Obviously that isn't the case. The purpose of this thread was stated very directly, but apparently to no avail. I'm just going to send a pm to one of the facilitators to erase it. Thanks for nothing.

Jean
01-31-2008, 12:48 AM
wait a sec,

there are a lot of people around who would love to discuss poetry, and this particular poem too

only things do not happen all at once

if you don't mind, I'd prefer this thread to stay

(photobucket on maintenance again)

:: three huggling bears::

Brice
01-31-2008, 04:04 AM
I thought that I might find some DT fans who would jump at the chance to talk about this poem. Obviously that isn't the case. The purpose of this thread was stated very directly, but apparently to no avail. I'm just going to send a pm to one of the facilitators to erase it. Thanks for nothing.

As Jean said, I would hope you'd give it a little time. Sometimes these things are slow to draw attention. That doesn't mean people aren't interested. Sadly, I myself am ill equipped to discuss poetry on any kind of academic level. I can say little more than I liked it or didn't. Thhis is why I usually don't respond much in the poetry type threads around here.

Woofer
01-31-2008, 08:33 PM
I think King did a pretty good job with translating the characters from Browning's poem into King's gunslinger storyline and world, but to speak with more depth on the subject I will have to come back when I'm not so tired. I will say, however, that I think he went more for general parallels rather than specific one-to-one comparisons. Also, I wonder if (DT7 spoiler) King "gave" the poem to Roland not only to point out Dandelo, but also because he (King) had realized the implications. If this poem was about this Roland, then his quest/journey/obsession had deeper metaphysical implications. In other words, King may've seen Browning as another of Gan's storyslingers, which meant that either Roland's journey had been going on a long time or was being repeated. If we looked back another hundred years, would we find a similar literary work about a similar quest? Hrmmmmm.

Blah, I think I really am too tired to make sense.

I also studied Browning in college and love his work. I'm most especially fond of "My Last Duchess". I can see a younger CK being very much like the Duke of Ferrara. "This grew; I gave commands; then all smiles stopped together."

Daghain
01-31-2008, 08:45 PM
Wasn't there an allusion somewhere (maybe it was in King's forward or afterward to the book, I can't honestly remember now) that Browning was indeed one of Gan's storyslingers?

Woofer
02-02-2008, 12:34 PM
I'll have to check. You're probably correct. I admit that I only read those once in a while. :blush: I tend to dive right into the books.

Daghain
02-03-2008, 10:49 AM
:lol:

I read them, then forget what they said. I want to say it was in DT7, but I'm too lazy to check at the moment.

John_and_Yoko
06-11-2008, 01:07 PM
I JUST discovered this thread now (someone linked to it in my own thread in the Volume VII forum), and so I wanted to say that I discovered something interesting while looking at the Browning poem again. I'll copy and paste so I won't have to re-type the whole thing again.


Just went back and looked over the Browning poem, and now I'm starting to wonder whether Stephen King took inspiration from it throughout the series, rather than just in one volume or another....

Stanzas XXII and XXIII, with the fighters, remind me very much of the Pubes and Grays in Volume III, and especially taken with the next stanza, XXIV, the engine mentioned brings Blaine the Mono to mind....

Ironic since Volume III is named after T. S. Eliot's "The Waste Land." I read that and couldn't understand much of any of it, let alone see how it might have inspired Stephen King specifically other than the title.... :blush:

Daghain
06-11-2008, 01:15 PM
I would say you are probably right, since that poem was what got King started on the series.

John_and_Yoko
06-11-2008, 01:18 PM
I would say you are probably right, since that poem was what got King started on the series.

Um...The Waste Lands isn't the first volume, but thanks....

obscurejude
06-11-2008, 01:30 PM
J and Y, I think you're getting hung up on the specifics and not digging into the themes that are represented in both of those poems (very easy to do, I might add). I understand your frustration, and it wasn't until college and grad school that I was able to place Eliot or Browning in context with the Dark Tower. They do relate though, I promise, and its worth the frustration.

Daghain
06-11-2008, 01:33 PM
I would say you are probably right, since that poem was what got King started on the series.

Um...The Waste Lands isn't the first volume, but thanks....

What I meant was, it inspired him to do the series, so I'm sure he borrowed parts from the poem in most (if not all) the books.

John_and_Yoko
06-11-2008, 01:36 PM
J and Y, I think you're getting hung up on the specifics and not digging into the themes that are represented in both of those poems (very easy to do, I might add). I understand your frustration, and it wasn't until college and grad school that I was able to place Eliot or Browning in context with the Dark Tower. They do relate though, I promise, and its worth the frustration.

You're right. My brain has difficulty in going beyond specifics, especially the first time around. The first time around I need to have a grasp of what's going on at a literal level (such as I can) before I can start looking at metaphor, symbolism, themes, motifs, etc.... As you say, it's very easy to do.

I believe you that they relate, but it's not because of having read the poem in the case of "The Waste Land." I read somewhere that it had to do with the "Fisher King" concept, and I could see how that related, but reading the actual poem? All I really remember was Tiresias....

It's only lately that I was able to do it with the Browning poem but even then I'd had to read it several times (and it helped that I'd finished The Dark Tower series by then).

I'd like to delve deeper into the subject, I just have my doubts about my ability to do it alone....

EDIT: And yeah, I'm sure he did, Daghain, it was just most obvious there (other than the first, fourth, and seventh volumes). I was just making mention of what I'd recently discovered.

obscurejude
06-11-2008, 01:40 PM
I would say you are probably right, since that poem was what got King started on the series.

Um...The Waste Lands isn't the first volume, but thanks....

What I meant was, it inspired him to do the series, so I'm sure he borrowed parts from the poem in most (if not all) the books.

That was obvious to the rest of us daggers. :)

Daghain
06-11-2008, 01:42 PM
Oh, bite me. :lol:

obscurejude
06-11-2008, 01:44 PM
J and Y, I think you're getting hung up on the specifics and not digging into the themes that are represented in both of those poems (very easy to do, I might add). I understand your frustration, and it wasn't until college and grad school that I was able to place Eliot or Browning in context with the Dark Tower. They do relate though, I promise, and its worth the frustration.

You're right. My brain has difficulty in going beyond specifics, especially the first time around. The first time around I need to have a grasp of what's going on at a literal level (such as I can) before I can start looking at metaphor, symbolism, themes, motifs, etc.... As you say, it's very easy to do.

I believe you that they relate, but it's not because of having read the poem in the case of "The Waste Land." I read somewhere that it had to do with the "Fisher King" concept, and I could see how that related, but reading the actual poem? All I really remember was Tiresias....

It's only lately that I was able to do it with the Browning poem but even then I'd had to read it several times (and it helped that I'd finished The Dark Tower series by then).

I'd like to delve deeper into the subject, I just have my doubts about my ability to do it alone....

EDIT: And yeah, I'm sure he did, Daghain, it was just most obvious there (other than the first, fourth, and seventh volumes). I was just making mention of what I'd recently discovered.

Let me think about it J and Y. Doing it alone is really worth it, though it's difficult. I hesitate to just start filling in the gaps. Do you know much about Victorian or Early Modernist writers? I think understanding the context and the traditions from which Browning and Eliot were writing may really help you see the thematic connections. This is where it began to change for me.

obscurejude
06-11-2008, 01:44 PM
Oh, bite me. :lol:

No, I was saying that you were right. :lol: :rose:

Daghain
06-11-2008, 01:46 PM
:lol:

And yeah, Browning and Eliot can be brain-twisters.

obscurejude
06-11-2008, 01:48 PM
:lol:

And yeah, Browning and Eliot can be brain-twisters.

Yeah, some of the most complex SOB's that ever picked up a pen. I think that's why I have man crushes on them and have spent far too many hours in the school library (godamn place is open 24 hours).

Daghain
06-11-2008, 01:52 PM
:lol:

John_and_Yoko
06-11-2008, 01:56 PM
Let me think about it J and Y. Doing it alone is really worth it, though it's difficult. I hesitate to just start filling in the gaps. Do you know much about Victorian or Early Modernist writers? I think understanding the context and the traditions from which Browning and Eliot were writing may really help you see the thematic connections. This is where it began to change for me.

I probably know more than I think I do--if asked an open-ended question I'd probably be a deer in the headlights, but something a little less open-ended I might know something about. I took a Victorian Legacies course a few years ago, but I don't know how much has stayed in my mind--and I didn't study Browning or Eliot to my knowledge....

Darkthoughts
06-11-2008, 02:00 PM
This is interesting to read - and from that point of view, can you highlight some of the less obvious references? :)

obscurejude
06-11-2008, 02:01 PM
Ahhh, I'm just paralyzed. Any response concerning their respective places in literary history will take up more time than I have right now. Keep digging, and remember that you're looking for gold.

Darkthoughts
06-11-2008, 02:08 PM
I'm hopeless with poetry! My Dad used to despair of me because its absolutely his passion.

I'll read Browning's poem in full again tomorrow as a starting point. If I list very basic observations in here after, maybe it'll be an opportunity for the poetry wary like me to jump in and start brain storming :thumbsup:

obscurejude
06-11-2008, 02:11 PM
Rich stuff folks. This thread should get interesting as hell.

John_and_Yoko
06-11-2008, 03:59 PM
I'm going to have to re-read BOTH poems again now--I just looked a bit at the Sparknotes commentary, and now I'm starting to see the connection....

...and it's exciting to me! :D

Daghain
06-11-2008, 04:05 PM
Goddammit, you guys are going to make me read that poem again, aren't you? :lol:

I have a ton of stuff on the top of my head, but I need the poem in front of my mind now. *skips off to find DT7*

I'm going to go dig up a copy of Eliot's, too.

Daghain
06-11-2008, 08:55 PM
My "Reduced Shakespeare Company" interpretation of Browning's "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came":

Taken from http://www.online-literature.com/robert-browning/2770/

Verse I:

I was completely sure this was in refernce to Walter. Imagine my surprise when I discovered it was Dandelo. I remember reading DT7 going, "NO, THAT'S WALTER!!!"

After verse II, I got it. That whole reading for comprehension thing was lost on me. :lol:

Anyone else think verse III is the whole "laugh 'til you can't stop" thing in DT7? I get the mental picutre of Roland dying of laughter there.

Verses V - VIII - Roland's quest? Leaving people behind as he moved forward?

Verse VIV?

The desire to go on, regardless of the cost?

V and VI - is this Nort?

VII to X - Nort in Tull and Roland's realization of what he is really following?

I'll look at the rest later. :)

educatedlady
06-11-2008, 10:20 PM
Ah, Browning and DT. :)
In my undergrad I wrote about DT and briefly mentioned the poem in my paper. What I thought/think can pretty much be summed up by Daghain here. :)


I was interested in DT7 when King "gave" Roland the poem. Some of the passages he'd quoted (such as the one about Dandelo) I'd never even thought of being that character. I guess I always assumed the person who "lied in every word" was the Man in Black. Once I saw King's interpretation I could see where he got it, especially with regard to the second stanza. I found it interesting, though, that that was the first stanza and we don't see Dandelo until the last book. So I think originally I was thinking the poem followed the entire story, but it seems more to me now that it was looking backward instead of forward.

I'm not big on poetry or Browning and as of right now I'm re-reading the series so I'll have to come back to this thread once I've read the poem and the books again. Perhaps I'll come into some new insight.

Daghain
06-12-2008, 06:51 AM
Yeah, I'm still in the "picking it apart and looking for facts" mode.

Darkthoughts
06-12-2008, 10:31 AM
I don't understand what you're trying to point us towards though, Ryan. DT themes other than the ones that are obvious?

obscurejude
06-12-2008, 10:36 AM
I don't understand what you're trying to point us towards though, Ryan. DT themes other than the ones that are obvious?

Yes, they are more thematic, rather than, "this line must refer to Dandelo."

I'm going to pm you.

Daghain
06-12-2008, 10:37 AM
I see where he's going, but now that I'm in analyze mode I have to see what I can line up with the books first, then go for the "bigger picture".

You should post your ideas up in here, jude - I'm interested!

Darkthoughts
06-12-2008, 10:39 AM
*sigh of relief* :D

John_and_Yoko
06-12-2008, 10:41 AM
I see where he's going, but now that I'm in analyze mode I have to see what I can line up with the books first, then go for the "bigger picture".

You should post your ideas up in here, jude - I'm interested!

I agree. Sparknotes is great, but there's no interaction there, you know? And anyway that makes it only one opinion, one view of the matter, and that can't be the whole story.

obscurejude
06-12-2008, 10:41 AM
I see where he's going, but now that I'm in analyze mode I have to see what I can line up with the books first, then go for the "bigger picture".

You should post your ideas up in here, jude - I'm interested!

I'm trying to figure out a way without having to write a paper in the form of a post. I'll do something though. I'm terrible at presenting ideas concisely.

John_and_Yoko
06-12-2008, 10:42 AM
I'm trying to figure out a way without having to write a paper in the form of a post. I'll do something though. I'm terrible at presenting ideas concisely.

Heh--join the club! :)

Daghain
06-12-2008, 10:42 AM
I don't mind reading.

And J&Y, how to Sparknotes compare to Cliff Notes?

John_and_Yoko
06-12-2008, 10:44 AM
I don't mind reading.

And J&Y, how to Sparknotes compare to Cliff Notes?

I used to think Sparknotes were better (like they cover more books than Cliff Notes do, including recent ones like Harry Potter books), but now I think they're just different. True, they probably cover more works, but I don't know if they're inherently "better" otherwise, in terms of comparing the same works with each (although Sparknotes did have a LONG coverage of The Lord of the Rings and a separate one for The Hobbit, not true for Cliff Notes).

Anyway, Sparknotes has a website, sparknotes.com, I don't know if that holds for Cliff Notes or not....

And I don't mind reading either, Jude! :)

Daghain
06-12-2008, 10:45 AM
Ooh, I may have to check that site out. Thanks J!

obscurejude
06-12-2008, 10:47 AM
Ooh, I may have to check that site out. Thanks J!

Most of the stuff is free, but you have to pay and download the good stuff. Like anything of the Cliff Notes variety, its a good starting point but if you see something really interesting I'd recommend doing an article search on google and seeing if any free journal archives are hosting the said article.

Daghain
06-12-2008, 10:50 AM
I wish I still had access to the University's online library. Damn.

obscurejude
06-12-2008, 10:51 AM
I wish I still had access to the University's online library. Damn.

If you find an article that you can't access, send the name to me and I'll get it for you and e mail it to you. :)

educatedlady
06-12-2008, 11:13 AM
I wish I still had access to the University's online library. Damn.

I am going to miss having access to University academic tools. :(