Time differences between worlds/levels of the Tower *spoilers*

[Letti]

I know in Roland's world the time is crazy but... how many years do you think have passed between the desert and the Tower in Roland's life?

1? 5? 200?
How old is Roland? How do you feel so?

[alinda]

I do not believe in time:nope:

[Letti]

Foxy lady... :rolleyes:

[jayson]

Since we don't know how many times Roland has completed the loop, it's hard to determine how many years Roland has been alive. It's been 1,000 years since the fall of Gilead. Who knows for how many of those has Roland been concsiously travelling his road, and how many slipped by him because of jumps in time?

[Letti]

Let's see only one loop the one we could read about.

[jayson]

ok, then how about 19 years?

[Letti]

ok, then how about 19 years?

Sounds good. :D

[ManOfWesternesse]

In that one loop? - I'd say its between 2 & 3 years.
(real-time that is, of course the 'desert to Tower' should include the Palaver at the Golgotha with Walter - which is a time-slip of 10? 100? 1,000? years - but discounting that for this purpose....)

[Letti]

I feel them more. I think there are lots of things King didn't have time to write about. Minimum 5 years but maybe much much more.
Of course it's just a feeling or a guess.

[Matt]

Walter - which is a time-slip of 10? 100? 1,000? years - but discounting that for this purpose....)

but wasn't one of the things we learned from Flagg at the end the fact that this didn't happen?

[jayson]

but wasn't one of the things we learned from Flagg at the end the fact that this didn't happen?

we did? roland definitely aged during that time, flagg didn't fake that. you've intrigued me matt, explain....

[Matt]

Oops, I forgot this was in the book 7 thread, no need for spoiler tags.

From what I understood, when Flagg was relaying his adventures with Roland to Mordred, he said that the meeting at the end of book one was nothing. That he threw some old bones out there and ran off.

Or something like that :lol:

[jayson]

Oops, I forgot this was in the book 7 thread, no need for spoiler tags.

From what I understood, when Flagg was relaying his adventures with Roland to Mordred, he said that the meeting at the end of book one was nothing. That he threw some old bones out there and ran off.

Or something like that :lol:

So how did Roland age 10 years?

[Matt]

Stress? :lol:

From what I understood at the end of book 7, he didn't age at all.

Although dropping Jake probably put about 10 years on him :couple:

[jayson]

Stress? :lol:

From what I understood at the end of book 7, he didn't age at all.

Although dropping Jake probably put about 10 years on him :couple:

His hair got thinner and gray around the temples. Sounds like aging. I know there is no way to tell how much time passed while they palavered, but my understanding is that they did palaver and it took longer than one night.

[Matt]

I'm just going by what Flagg told Mordred RofG--and I may have gotten it totally wrong.

He was laughing about how disoriented Roland was and the fact that he had duped him. One night I believe, with some bones tossed in to freak him out.

I'll find the passage later and see if I an post it.

[Darkthoughts]

I thought what he was amused about was the fact that Roland believed Walter to be dead. Because Roland initially thought they were Walter's bones and we all thought, "Ah, ok, Walter is not Flagg." Then it turns out Walter is Flagg and Flagg tricked us all with the bones ;)

In the Concordance the passage of time is given thus:
"Roland and Walter enter a fistula of time and Roland has a vision of the Tower's many levels.
When he awakes, Roland has aged 10 years, but 300 years have passed in Mid World-that-was."

[jayson]

Same here. The only thing I thought Flagg faked was the skeleton, not the length of the palaver. Again, Roland aged noticeably between the start and finish of the palaver so clearly more time passed than a single night.

[Darkthoughts]

Robin Furth also describes it as "a ten year long night" and I found this too (still from the Concordance):

Roland wakes up from a short sleep to find that he has aged a decade and that Walter is only a pile of bones. Later on in the series we learn that, although Walter pretended to die in the golgotha, he did not actually travel to the clearing at the end of the path.

[ManOfWesternesse]

Agree with Dark/R_of_G.
Flagg was just explaining the use of some old bones to cover the fact that he did not die in the Palaver.
But the Palaver did happen, and it did take more than a night - I just couldn't remember how long. I'll go with Dark's quote

Roland has aged 10 years, but 300 years have passed in Mid World-that-was

... none of which directly affects Letti's question, unless you want to include the 'elapsed Palaver time' in the calculation... :lol:

[Matt]

I have a half day so I got a chance to look it up and you guys are right. For some reason I got the idea it never really happened. I am happy to know it did.

However, the final word on it in book 7 is pretty vague as to how long it actually was. I think (after reading it again) that my over all assumption that it is not the 1000 years we all thought as the story unfolded is basically true.

Here is the passage from the book:


"How did I escape?" Walter asked. "Why, I did what any true cozener would do in such circumstances--told him the truth! Showed him the Tower, at least several levels of it. It stunned him, right and proper, and while he was open in such fashion, I took a leaf from his own book and hypnotized ihm. We were in one of the fistulas of time which sometimes swirl out form the Tower, and the world moved on all around us as we had our palaver in that bony place, Aye! I brought more bones--human ones--and while he slept I dressed em in what was left of my own cloths. I could have killed him then, but what of the Tower if I had, eh? What of you, for that matter? You never would have come to be. It's fair to say, Mordred, that by allowing Roland to live and draw his three, I saved your life before your life was even kindled, so I did. I stole away to the seashore--felt in need of a little vacation, hee! When Roland got there, he went one way, toward the three doors. I'd gone the other, Mordred my dear, and here I am!"

But I will concede that the above leaves open the idea that it could have been any amount of time. :rock:

[ManOfWesternesse]

Yes, good find Matt.

We were in one of the fistulas of time which sometimes swirl out form the Tower, and the world moved on all around us ...
... could be any length indeed. Delah!

[jayson]

However, the final word on it in book 7 is pretty vague as to how long it actually was. I think (after reading it again) that my over all assumption that it is not the 1000 years we all thought as the story unfolded is basically true.

Agreed Matt, we are left to our own speculation as to the amount of time. The one time the 1,000 years comes up is when one of the Calla folken first deals with Roland and tells him the Fall of Gilead was 1,000 years ago. What we don't know at that point is how many loops Roland has done since the Fall. I like Brian's answer, delah.

[Darkthoughts]

Yes, even in the Concordance Robin Furth says ambiguous things like "a night that lasted 10 years" and that "Roland had aged 10 years" but the actual passage of time is never concretely stated ;)

[To The Dark Tower Came]

Yes, even in the Concordance Robin Furth says ambiguous things like "a night that lasted 10 years" and that "Roland had aged 10 years" but the actual passage of time is never concretely stated ;)

I think that if we're talking loops, then NO time has passed. It's simply reset. We go back to the time when Roland enters the desert after picking up the trail of Walter.

As for the time during the story, or the time each loop takes, like others have said the Concordance tries to answer this.

Roland is 24 when he begin tracking Walter. Cant find him for 12 years.

Roland is 36 when he meets Jake and spots Walter, letting Jake fall.

Caught in the fistula of time, about 300 goes by in the world, about 10 for Roland.

From there to the Tower takes about a year (marked largely because Jake goes from eleven to twelve durring that time)

So, with time being what it was, and counting by markers, it's at least 337 years from open to close.

[Letti]

I f we're talking loops NO time has passed??? Without time nothing exists, don't you think?
Loop or no loop must exist time must go on... but I can be wrong. :)

Anyway I like your counting.

[To The Dark Tower Came]

I f we're talking loops NO time has passed??? Without time nothing exists, don't you think?
Loop or no loop must exist time must go on... but I can be wrong. :)

Anyway I like your counting.

Well time can be argued about from different angles. But when we think of the loops, it's like time travel. If you lived your life for three days and then were suddenly thrown back in time three days, those three days would exist for you, but time around you would have "reset" to what you remember as the past.

If you take a sidewalk and walk past 65 lines, then you are picked up and carried back to line #1 those 65 lines still exits, but you have to walk them all over again. So in Roland's case, when he comes to the last door, and it opens on the desert, he has a flash of intuition. He begs for mercy because he realizes he'll be going through it all again. That being pushed to a beginning of his journey resets his memories as well. He goes from the Roland we followed to the Roland we met at the beginning. Reset.

Most likely he retains the qualities gained from previous loops, but when considering time, then for Roland, it had reset to the time when he was in the Mohaine desert.

All events from seven books have yet to happen...again.

[ManOfWesternesse]

Going back to Letti's original question though...
"....how many years do you think have passed between the desert and the Tower in Roland's life?"
So really we're not talking about the Loop here?
It's the elapsed time from the start of The Gunslinger (Roland in the desert) to the end of The Dark Tower.

OK, spoiler :lol:
I guess you could argue that the end of The Dark Tower is Roland in the Desert too:panic: Depends on just what we are trying to count here!

[Matt]

:lol:

Good point, we could really say there was no time inbetween

[zadok]

What are your thoughts about them? And is Mid-World (and In-World/Out-World) just America thousands of years into the future?

Here's what we know:
North Central Positronics is one of the companies created by the Great Old Ones. We know that David Tassenbaum (DT7) was a founder. "Since the 10 thousands" = years AD. Walter told Roland as much at their palaver in DT1. Then that civilization disappeared and a 1,000 years passed before Arthur Eld rose and ruled over "All-World".

Do I have it right so far???

[Matt]

I believe so. I think Rolands world is an alternate to ours that is very close to the Tower itself.

Its actual place in the time stream is irrelevant to me because its entire history would have been different than ours.

It could be the year 2000 (or whatever) in Rolands world, just a very different place.

[zadok]

I believe so. I think Rolands world is an alternate to ours that is very close to the Tower itself.

Its actual place in the time stream is irrelevant to me because its entire history would have been different than ours.

It could be the year 2000 (or whatever) in Rolands world, just a very different place.

Bear with me, Matt. :unsure:

Why does it have to be an alternate world? Why would it's history have to be different? They only trace history back to Arthur Eld, but we know he rose 1,000 years after the Great Old Ones. Why would their stuff be all over the place if it wasn't the same world? SK has said Mejis is Mexico...

[TerribleT]

I believe so. I think Rolands world is an alternate to ours that is very close to the Tower itself.

Its actual place in the time stream is irrelevant to me because its entire history would have been different than ours.

It could be the year 2000 (or whatever) in Rolands world, just a very different place.

This is what I think as well. It's very similar to ours, but not the same. Many things are different in Roland's world, for example the names of cars and baseball teams.

[Matt]

I believe so. I think Rolands world is an alternate to ours that is very close to the Tower itself.

Its actual place in the time stream is irrelevant to me because its entire history would have been different than ours.

It could be the year 2000 (or whatever) in Rolands world, just a very different place.

Bear with me, Matt. :unsure:

Why does it have to be an alternate world? Why would it's history have to be different? They only trace history back to Arthur Eld, but we know he rose 1,000 years after the Great Old Ones. Why would their stuff be all over the place if it wasn't the same world? SK has said Mejis is Mexico...

I'm not sure it has to be, I just think it is.

I do not believe the question of Roland our our worlds has to do with time but with the levels of the tower. Meaning there are infinate variations of our "world" within the Tower and this is one that went wildly a different way.

The reason stuff from our world is there is because the spaces between the levels are becoming "thin"

But not anymore because the Tower is saved and so is Gan I believe. Gan's Roland continues on :(

[HanzouNorak]

andy in DT5 said he had been operating for 5000 years or was it 15000? ether way, considering machinery such as robots that are advanced as andy are (probaly) going to be develpoed in/or around 2100-2400, that puts roland's current time to possibly little over 5100-5400 or 15100-15400 years into the futrue (from the date of 2000). the Arthur Eld crap is probaly refering to the medeval King Arthur, though how hes confused into 1000 years after (what im assuming is) WW3, i cant tell you.

[Matt]

I'm not sure I'm getting my point across.

On Roland's level of the Tower, computers could have been developed in say...Roman times for us.

There is 0 reason to believe that their technology ran the same course as ours

[Wuducynn]

Right-on Matt. I was with you from the start...

[jayson]

Its actual place in the time stream is irrelevant to me because its entire history would have been different than ours.

...

I do not believe the question of Roland our our worlds has to do with time but with the levels of the tower. Meaning there are infinate variations of our "world" within the Tower and this is one that went wildly a different way.

I couldn't agree more Matt.

[zadok]

I'm not sure I'm getting my point across.

On Roland's level of the Tower, computers could have been developed in say...Roman times for us.

There is 0 reason to believe that their technology ran the same course as ours

I do understand your point, Matt. But why would you say 0 reason? What about David Tassenbaum on Keystone Earth? Isn't that telling us that in the "internet age" is the "beginning of the end" for our civilization? That we, in 2008 are in fact the Great Old Ones?
Why was JFK repeadedly referred to as "the last gunslinger"? Seems to me that SK is saying he was the last of the White until the rise of Arthur Eld thousands of years later. Didn't Walter's talk with Roland tie in the golden age of the Great Old Ones with our society today?

Am I completely nuts thinking this???

[jayson]

Why was JFK repeadedly referred to as "the last gunslinger"? Seems to me that SK is saying he was the last of the White until the rise of Arthur Eld thousands of years later.

Because that was one of Kennedy's nicknames. I don't think King meant us to literally believe that Kennedy served the White prior to the time of Eld in anything other than a figurative sense. He used Kennedy so heavily bc it tied in nicely with Suze's participation in the Civil Rights movement. I see what you are trying to say Zadok, but like Matt I don't see any reason to believe that the Great Old Ones are actually our society and not one of infinite deviations of it. As for David Tassenbaum being from Keystone Earth, you already showed in another thread that there may be a large inconistency with the Keystone Earth thing, so ...

[Matt]

Yep, that is my take on it. Kennedy being a "gunslinger" was metaphorical only.

I never really got the impression that the rise of Rolands world was in the future of ours.

[TerribleT]

Why was JFK repeadedly referred to as "the last gunslinger"? Seems to me that SK is saying he was the last of the White until the rise of Arthur Eld thousands of years later.

Because that was one of Kennedy's nicknames. I don't think King meant us to literally believe that Kennedy served the White prior to the time of Eld in anything other than a figurative sense. He used Kennedy so heavily bc it tied in nicely with Suze's participation in the Civil Rights movement. I see what you are trying to say Zadok, but like Matt I don't see any reason to believe that the Great Old Ones are actually our society and not one of infinite deviations of it. As for David Tassenbaum being from Keystone Earth, you already showed in another thread that there may be a large inconistency with the Keystone Earth thing, so ...

He does draw more paralells than that though. Susannah equates Kennedy and Roland when she comes to understand that he is both diplomat, killer, and much more, after River Crossing. At that point she comes to understand that like Kennedy, he may be the last gunslinger of his time. I'm not sure that makes the point that we are the great old ones though.

[zadok]

I appreciate everyone's input on this. :)

[jayson]

He does draw more paralells than that though. Susannah equates Kennedy and Roland when she comes to understand that he is both diplomat, killer, and much more, after River Crossing. At that point she comes to understand that like Kennedy, he may be the last gunslinger of his time.

Right, but again, I think it was more to illustrate to Susannah that Roland was a lot more than what she may have thought up to that point, not to make any specific claims about JFK. Overall, I think the world of the Great Old Ones was a future of a world like ours, but not the future of our world.

[TerribleT]

Right, but again, I think it was more to illustrate to Susannah that Roland was a lot more than what she may have thought up to that point, not to make any specific claims about JFK. Overall, I think the world of the Great Old Ones was a future of a world like ours, but not the future of our world.

Nor is our world a past of Roland's.

[jayson]

Wouldn't that be the same thing? If our world is turns into the Great Old Ones than it would be Roland's. I don't think it is.

[TerribleT]

I guess :brain hurting:

[jayson]

i know how you feel. some of these big questions make me feel like eddie when he is just about to school blaine but can't quite get his mind around what he's thinking

[TerribleT]

Well, here's my understanding of things, and what I think. I don't think Roland's world is anyplace along the timeline of our world. Well, I supposed it could be our very distant future, or our very distant past. I don't however think that the characters, roads, machines, computers, or anything else in Roland's world have any direct relationship to our own. I think Roland's world is a completely separate world, which bears some resemblence to ours, because it comes from the same place, The Dark Tower, which to my way of thinking, is a metaphorical spindle on which all other worlds turn.

I don't know if I did a really good job of explaining that.

[jayson]

Well, here's my understanding of things, and what I think. I don't think Roland's world is anyplace along the timeline of our world. Well, I supposed it could be our very distant future, or our very distant past. I don't however think that the characters, roads, machines, computers, or anything else in Roland's world have any direct relationship to our own. I think Roland's world is a completely separate world, which bears some resemblence to ours, because it comes from the same place, The Dark Tower, which to my way of thinking, is a metaphorical spindle on which all other worlds turn.

I don't know if I did a really good job of explaining that.

Made sense to me, and I agree.

[TerribleT]

Then, going from there, according to the dream at the end of The Gunslinger, there is an infinite number of other worlds turning on an infinite number of other spindles, and Roland's world is the pivot point of all of those other worlds.

[jayson]

Then, going from there, according to the dream at the end of The Gunslinger, there is an infinite number of other worlds turning on an infinite number of other spindles, and Roland's world is the pivot point of all of those other worlds.

Because it's the one in which the Tower is the Tower. I'm down with that.

[jayson]

What are your thoughts about them? And is Mid-World (and In-World/Out-World) just America thousands of years into the future?

Do I have it right so far???

So I've been giving this one a lot of thought today. I think there may be evidence that Roland's world is most assuredly not our world at another point on a timeline. The stars/constellations are different in Roland's world than ours. I don't propose that I know exactly how the cosmology of King's multiverse works, but I am pretty confident that with different stars, it is a different world. It may be very similar, and both revolve around the same axis, but to me, the geography of the sky suggests they cannot be the same world. Thoughts?

[Matt]

That point about the stars is a very good one.

[jayson]

of course it is, i made it :lol:

[Woofer]

I don't however think that the characters, roads, machines, computers, or anything else in Roland's world have any direct relationship to our own. I think Roland's world is a completely separate world, which bears some resemblence to ours, because it comes from the same place, The Dark Tower, which to my way of thinking, is a metaphorical spindle on which all other worlds turn.


I think there may be evidence that Roland's world is most assuredly not our world at another point on a timeline. The stars/constellations are different in Roland's world than ours. I don't propose that I know exactly how the cosmology of King's multiverse works, but I am pretty confident that with different stars, it is a different world. It may be very similar, and both revolve around the same axis, but to me, the geography of the sky suggests they cannot be the same world. Thoughts?

I also believe that Roland's world is not our own, largely for the reasons listed above. In fact, our worlds (ours and Roland's) probably exist in completely different universes - or perhaps dimensions - that revolve around the tower. Hence, different skies. However, I do think it's pretty clear they are the same in one respect: level of significance in saving the tower since our world is called a keystone world.

{aside}Every time King mentioned the Great Olde Ones, I could not help but think of Lovecraft's Great Olde Ones. Got some pretty funny mental pictures of shoggoths building computers. And we all know what a huge Lovecraft fan King is...{/aside}

[TerribleT]

Yeah, it is, but the possibility exists that over thousands, or even hundreds of thousands of years, that the stars could shift, doesn't it? Maybe a comet could knock the earth off it's path, blah blah blah. My sense is that Rolands world is a similar world to ours, but not ours. But an good argument could be made that it's our world in a different time line, 10,000 years in the past or future.

[jayson]

However, I do think it's pretty clear they are the same in one respect: level of significance in saving the tower since our world is called a keystone world.


Agreed Woofer. As Roland says "Two. There are two hubs of existence." It's clear that that Rose is more than just the Tower's placeholder on that level. The flower IS the Tower.

[Matt]

Oh heck yeah. I have always considered the Rose as the actual Tower in Keystone.

I loved how Roland said it could protect itself for the most part. I would have loved to see it actually doing that...but I guess it actually was...it was still there after all. :orely:

[Wuducynn]

I think its important to differentiate between "worlds" and "planets" in the case of a multiverse a world is another word for dimension or plain or universe. While a planet is a big rock floating in space with an atmosphere. All-World is another world so it would make sense that it would have different constellations.

[jayson]

I think its important to differentiate between "worlds" and "planets" in the case of a multiverse a world is another word for dimension or plain or universe. While a planet is a big rock floating in space with an atmosphere. All-World is another world so it would make sense that it would have different constellations.

My point remaining true that different stars equal different world. My other point also remains that I don't know, or care, if it's the same planet or not. It ain't the same world as ours much as it may seem similar.

[Wuducynn]

A. Fuck you.

B. Fuck you very much

C. I understand, I just wanted it clear that there was a difference, since a lot of folk seem to confuse the usage of the terms. Which brings me back to points A. and B.

[obscurejude]

I'm not sure I'm getting my point across.

On Roland's level of the Tower, computers could have been developed in say...Roman times for us.

There is 0 reason to believe that their technology ran the same course as ours

I do understand your point, Matt. But why would you say 0 reason? What about David Tassenbaum on Keystone Earth? Isn't that telling us that in the "internet age" is the "beginning of the end" for our civilization? That we, in 2008 are in fact the Great Old Ones?
Why was JFK repeadedly referred to as "the last gunslinger"? Seems to me that SK is saying he was the last of the White until the rise of Arthur Eld thousands of years later. Didn't Walter's talk with Roland tie in the golden age of the Great Old Ones with our society today?

Am I completely nuts thinking this???

I'm with you to an extent. Because King places real people and events within his narrative, it sort of leads you to make literal connections and references. (I think this is generally a bad idea as I have said repeatedly in the "King's appearance in SoS thread"). That being said, It doesn't really make sense literally, and has been noted, such an interpretation leads to many various and sundry inconsistencies within the books. I am of the persuasion that feels that King is making very definitive statements about the dangers of technology and where such advancements might lead, but it remains futile to construct some kind of time line. The great old ones have been an enigma to me in certain aspects for almost fifteen years.

[Wuducynn]

I'm going to let Matt handle this one, since he's probably already typed out War and Peace on it as I'm typing this post.

[obscurejude]

I don't know how to respond to that CK.

[Wuducynn]

You just did.

[obscurejude]

Yeah, I guess I did, but with great fear and trepidation.

[LadyHitchhiker]

I agree. "There are other worlds than these" must also apply to the stars as well.

[LadyHitchhiker]

There are other stars than these.

[aurora]

Heres a question I have been wondering about for a very long time. All-World, Rolands world, is unique and stands at the pivot of all multi-verses with the Tower as the base.
My question is, how can the keystone earth, and the other earths that are visited, be so far behind time wise compared to All-World and yet time runs faster there then in All-World?

[LadyHitchhiker]

Because the beams are broken... Or at least I thought that was why.

[aurora]

That 'might' be the reason why time was running faster in Keystone Earth, but how/why is it millenniums behind All World? That has nothing to do with the breakers destruction of the beams.

[LadyHitchhiker]

Beg your pardon but someone who remembers the story a lot more than me probably has a more analyical answer but this was the only answer I remember...

[obscurejude]

Aurora, there's a vague reference in DT VII about how All-World and Keystone are "twinners." I think All World is just as significant and a lot of what King is doing with the DT series is exploring the dangers of technology (as I have mentioned elsewhere). The Old People sort of epitomize man's potentials, and consequently his downfalls as well. In a way, Roland's journey is saving Keystone World from the fate of his own.

[mia/susannah]

Aurora, there's a vague reference in DT VII about how All-World and Keystone are "twinners." I think All World is just as significant and a lot of what King is doing with the DT series is exploring the dangers of technology (as I have mentioned elsewhere). The Old People sort of epitomize man's potentials, and consequently his downfalls as well. In a way, Roland's journey is saving Keystone World from the fate of his own.

I totally agree.

[aurora]

LadyHitchhiker - no it is I that beg your pardon, I did not mean to offend if I did. Just rushing between classes earlier today.

obscurejude - That Keystone and all-world are twinners I'll totally agree to. That Roland is out to save keystone earth and other earths I agree with also. That King is writing a parody oo the evils of technology I'll also agree to.

What I don't understand is how/ Keystone and the other earths visited are so far behind All-world and yest the other earths visited are pretty dang close to the same points in time.

Also note I'm restricting this to those earths we know of since its highly possibly and even likely other earths are much closer to the time of All-worlds time.

[aurora]

Oh and mia/susannah than image ROCKS!

[Letti]

I imagine King's Multiverse and the Tower like our Sun and the planets...
Some of them are closer... some of them are far away and they need more time to go around the Tower so time and the life are different on all of them. You can find similarities of course but in fact all of them include and hide different worlds.

[LadyHitchhiker]

That was a beautiful summation, Letti...

[Wuducynn]

A beautiful description from a beautiful woman.

[LadyHitchhiker]

I agree with you wholely.

[obscurejude]

Aurora, we have a very limited view of the multiverse. Its like penguins discussing nuclear physics (a line I stole from House). Of the three different versions of Earth that we have, they are behind, but they remain three of an infinity on a purple blade of grass. We do know enough about the two that really matter, at least in my opinion, as I have already expressed.

[LadyHitchhiker]

Oooooooooooooh very nice, Jude... :D

[sarah]

I imagine King's Multiverse and the Tower like our Sun and the planets...
Some of them are closer... some of them are far away and they need more time to go around the Tower so time and the life are different on all of them. You can find similarities of course but in fact all of them include and hide different worlds.


I like that way of seeing things. Great post, Letti.

[aurora]

Aurora, we have a very limited view of the multiverse.
True, I did restrict this conversation to just a couple earths and more importantly I'd like to be concerned with just keystone earth. My understanding of the multi-verse is not limited just the bounds for this discussion.

This however maybe were I am wrong though. My understanding was that Keystone Earth was unique and the singular twinner to All-World, with the concession that a potentially infinite other earths do exist.

As I stated earlier there probably are other worlds much nearer the time period of All-World, but how is All Worlds Twinner so far behind time wise? As in how was 'the' Keystone world brought about much much later then potentially infinitely others?

[obscurejude]

Aurora, the Keysone world has not moved on yet. It hasn't climaxed, the technology hasn't gone haywire.

[LadyHitchhiker]

Tell that to my register at work!!!

[obscurejude]

:lol:

[Wuducynn]

Tell that to my register at work!!!

THAT was funny :thumbsup:

[LadyHitchhiker]

Tell that to my register at work!!!

THAT was funny :thumbsup:
And true. I threatened to give it a lobotomy the other day. My manager says, "how do you give a computer a lobotomy?" I told her, "A magnet!" :excited:

[FatherofRoland]

The way the story ends, Roland is basically going around and around in this never-ending qwest, although he has the horn at the end, which may make some difference.

The todashes between Roland's world and the Key world of our world match up with certain pieces of modern history. The 60s for Sussanah, the 70s for Jake, and the 80s for Eddie. If he continues to go around and around. Does history move forward? Or does it go back in time to the same piece of history? Does he keep meeting the same people?

Also, the Black Sphere is underneath the WTC's right? and Doesn't 9/11 play some roll there? So how can Roland's quest start over?

They said that in the Keystone world they can't go back to a different time.

[Wuducynn]

This is one thing I've wondered, if time in the Keystone Rose world is still going forward even while Roland is turned back...? It seems to me like "no" but its an interesting thing to wonder about.

[Letti]

Interesting question indeed.
I don't think we can find the answer but we can make up theories. Just imagine if Keystone world can go just forward it means Roland's next loop will be extremly different. He doesn't have to save the rose or sai King anymore... because he has done it once.
But is it possible that he could reach the Tower without saving them before? No way. I don't think so. And we do know it wasn't Roland's first loop not even the second so he must have saved the rose and King many times already.
It means time must go backward in Keystone world as well.

But I can imagine that only the Tower is able to turn back time in Keystone world and noone else can do it. Not even with the help of magic doors.

[Unfound One]

Absolutely Letti - I definitely believe the Keystone world only moves in one direction and that the Tower "rewinds" time in all worlds each time Roland loops.
Time only goes one way in the Keystone world, but only when the Tower wants it to.

[Letti]

Time is a very untouchable and undescribable thing anyway.

[Unfound One]

That's a fact.

[Darkthoughts]

I think of it slightly differently.

I think the events of the DT books, Roland's loop in other words, have been cut out and removed from the normal passage of time. It exists in a little bubble somewhere outside of time - and will be constantly rewound and replayed (same characters each time) until Roland gets it right and bursts the bubble and the loop is inserted back into its correct place in time. (Think of it like a photograph that has been removed from an album - there is an empty space in the album to which the photo can be returned.)

We know that the time within the loop is not a fixed recording of events, its maleable, hence Roland having the horn at the end of this loop when previously he did not.
I'd also imagine that Roland is not the only person in the multiverse to whom this is happening. I'd imagine Gan has many little pockets of time/loops that certain souls are doomed to replay until they "get it right".

Repetition.

Redemption.

[Letti]

But in fact because of this bubble time can go back everywhere where Roland appears or enters, do I understand it well?

[Darkthoughts]

I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean...

...I'm saying that Roland never leaves this bubble, he is trapped within it...infact so is everyone else, but they never notice - and Roland only does when he has that awful moment of understanding at the top of the Tower.

Once Roland gets it right, the loop just becomes a normal part of history.

Did that make more sense? :unsure: :couple:

[obscurejude]

I think I get you Lisa, and I have similar thoughts. It reminds me of that little room made out of candy that Sheemie created for Ted, Dinky, and himself to hang out in and plot the demise of Blue Haven. Ted described it to the tet as being outside of time, a little pocket if you will.

[Darkthoughts]

Yes, and good call - I'd forgotten about Sheemie's gingerbread house :thumbsup:

[thankeesai]

That (Roland repeating it over and again) is one thing that always puzzled me. If Keystone was supposed to move forward, with no "do-overs", how is he supposed to have been going on this cycle so many times?

Your answers here make a lot of sense, though. Maybe the deal with Keystone and time only going forward applies to "regular" time-traveling (ie, the doors, todash-induced trips). For the Tower, though, it can go forwards, backwards, and sideways. Makes sense - Roland's watch starts running backwards when he gets close to the Tower, characters mentioning how time is funny or slipping.

[obscurejude]

A thought just came to me: If Keystone and All-World are twins, then does that mean that time only runs one way in Roland's world as well? It goes back to my whole theory of Roland's quest essentially being about saving the Keystone world from All-World's fate. What doesn't make since in this scenario is death, as in the case of Jake under the mountains, which I'm not sure we've figured out. Come to think of it, Eddie died in Roland's world and he shows up at the end with Jake as well, which makes Jake's death in Keystone kind of irrelevant in terms of significance.

Just thinking out loud.

[alinda]

Letti, as I see it...
Time does not exist:evil:
right this very now is in
fact then , and later, its
all here @ same instance.
Just like you & I are in
fact together with only
minor molecular changes
perceived as separation.




Time is a very untouchable and undescribable thing anyway.

[Mark]

If keystone world has no "do-overs", how is Roland meant to change things? It's just going to happen the same right? Just with the horn this time.

[turtlex]

I'm not sure I know how to state this, but I don't think it's an endless loop that Roland is on.

For one, this next "pass" he's got the horn of Eld. So it will (should) be a different journey. I always thought that he was, perhaps, learning something new with each "cycle" through to the Tower.

Perhaps this time through, with the Horn of Eld, he will find the Tower at the end and it will be something completely different and he will find rest and purity and consolation. His perfect end.

I always kind of assumed, Roland "getting" the Horn of Eld was some kind of "payment" for his love of Jake, Suzanna and Eddie. He learned that he needed them, they were not just a tool to be used to find the Tower. They were a part of him and a part of the Tower.

I'm not sure, really, how to state it clearly, sorry.

[Letti]

Letti, as I see it...
Time does not exist:evil:
right this very now is in
fact then , and later, its
all here @ same instance.
Just like you & I are in
fact together with only
minor molecular changes
perceived as separation.




Time is a very untouchable and undescribable thing anyway.

We can say a lot of things about time. None of them are true. None of them are false. It's above us.

[FatherofRoland]

Thanks for all the theories. I sort of agree with the idea that the Dark Tower has control of all worlds. The axle, if you will. So I think he goes back to the same time frame. Otherwise, even the part about his ancestor somehow leaving a note in the 1800s for that one guy in NY-bookstore to hold onto, that part would not make sense.

Where is Roland in this cycle? Was this the 1st time, the 100th time, the 3rd time, and will it end this time or never? I would like to think if he gets it right at some point it will end. It makes it fun to imagine all the possible new stories out there, but it is also very frustrating. Are we going to end up with dozens of book spin-offs like in Star Wars?

I would like to believe that somehow he gets it right and moves on himself. I picture at somepoint him facing the part of him that was lost when he got inside that sphere at the Baronies while meeting Susan. I think that was his turning point to searching for the Tower but also he changed a bit and everything became 2nd priority including his friends and loved ones. My ending would have him somehow face that part of his mind at the top of the tower and somehow fight himself. The younger, quicker, irrational Roland vs the older, injured, wiser Roland. And somehow in a spectacular gun fight ( like maybe he shoots his own bullets out from the air and.....) Then the world begins to move back together and rebuild itself again with Roland's descendant? another part in the story that needs added taking over. Meanwhile Roland somehow goes to a different world to be with Susan again as a reward from Gan since she sacrificed herself and aided immensely in the Gunslinger's overall quest.

Anyone ever see the movie Solarbabies? I just saw it again for the first time since a kid. Do you think King got the idea of spheres from that movie?

[FatherofRoland]

The overall story is almost that of opposite of hero. Roland is the main character/hero with all the qualities of superior gun-fighting skills, courage, wit, strength, endurance, and many hero qualities. Yet, in the end his hero quality of not letting things like friend or loved one get in his way of the ultimate goal in his mind gets the best of him and makes him fail. That is his weakness. I guess that is sort of the overall theme. Although there are a lot of great little themes throughout the process which, I think, are more important.

That's why I think King added the part about not going to the end. The journey is what made it such a good story and is what was important. The end was just a continuation of that and not really even an ending.

[Darkthoughts]

I've merged three previous discussions and changed the original title, to create a thread where all aspects of time on different levels of the Tower/other worlds/whens can be discussed :thumbsup: