That Thing, You Can Only Talk About If You've Finished the Series

[pathoftheturtle]

I’ve thought of that before, though most of the time, I tend to believe that there’s a lot of resemblance between each cycle. There is no proof of that, but it is somehow so suggested that it is hard to convince ourselves that nearly everything is always different. It is true, though, that both laws of the Keystones could stand with no paradox if the quest continually involves different particulars. That would mean that, in the future, the rose will face new threats, which is possible even if the threats in fact are not simply staged by Gan; some part of the Crimson King probably does still have freedom of action. In this case, though, it is no wonder that the two Jakes ( LOL: “The Two Jakes” :LMAO ) *ahem* …that the two Jakes merge. Only one set of adventurers are needed for the particular crisis which we saw involving SK; Roland might not be pointlessly repeating himself in alternate dimensions, but that would be just what other people in them would be doing if there still were such semi-independent echoes.
With this theory, tho, I have to wonder; could Roland’s father have lived longer on a previous occasion? Did Cuthbert visit King before Jericho Hill, or does the past of Mid-World sometimes change more drastically than to allow so simple an addition as Roland’s possession of the Horn? When Steven was dealing with the Torens of New York, it would make some sense if Roland had meanwhile been interacting with Sai Robert Browning. :orely:

That was beautifully spoken, pathoftheturtle... I hadn't thought of it that way before; well done.Thanks. :D
...But you see, it doesn't matter how Gan intervenes with Roland; all that matters is that he does it. Roland cannot and could not possibly find his humanity and gain salvation without some intervention. Think of it as a heroin addict, if you will. You cannot simply resolve their addiction and forgo any of the withdrawal symptoms. The best you can do is be their for them and present them the opportunity; they are the one that must go through the course of cleansing. Roland's course is much like the heroin cleansing he had to help Eddie perform; only this time, the roles are somewhat reversed. Gan needs to hold Roland's hand and show him the way to gaining salvation, but in the end it must be Roland who performs. Gan cannot grant Roland his humanity and salvation any more than Roland could erase Eddie's withdrawal symptoms. ...I dunno, man. That may be a poor comparison, actually; Roland can’t erase such symptoms, but Roland isn’t God. Before thinking in terms of power limits, I tend to ask what moral concerns Gan may be bound by. Beneath the physical effects of drug addiction, there’s the so-called mental habit; I think that what you’re getting at is just a person’s right to their free will. Gan probably could take that away, but then the person would no longer really be a human individual. Thus, our plot analysis should focus on whether that is truly Gan’s defining motive, and whether the cycle really does avoid such violation of Roland’s autonomy and, lest any of this prove to be some kind of hypocritical elitism, simultaneously avoid all violation of the autonomy of any other soul affected by it. Yes, the first question should be whether Roland does need any kind of intervention at all, but then it IS also important to decide exactly what kind is best. Of course it matters how Gan acts; if Roland were just like Eddie then just literally holding his hand, or giving tough Cort-like supervision such as Roland did, would seem to be far more efficient than upending the time-space continuum. Are you trying to suggest that Roland would never listen to any tangible manifestation of the Supreme Being under any circumstances? The character appeared to have quite a bit of self-awareness, actually; it’s not as though he were completely without conscience. Examples like what he did with Eddie seem to show that he does respect free will in a proper degree for others, so, then, what more secrets of the universe might Gan be trying to protect?

If Stephen King believes that inconsistency don't matter when you're laying down a moral, then I'd say that it is him who's guilty of the sort of short-sightedness he projects onto the readers. It's a good point that putting too much priority on reason can be destructive, but I don't think that I could buy it if he's implying that making sense is always inhumane.
In short, I doubt that those who obsess over their own obsessiveness really make much progress. I regard it as religious fallacy that God supports such vicious circles. We have to be quite careful about where to draw the lines between the claim that Roland has to deal with his own problems and the claim that he has to receive some intervention, if we're to avoid some major contradiction.

[Wigz]

since Roland is sent to do another loop. With a different outcome (presumably). There must be a new Author to re-tell the story.
much like Browning and King. amirite? King only told but one the many loops Roland has done.
Maybe someone in the next century someone will tell roland's "horn" loop because at the moment King owns this story.

[SynysterSaint]

That's the same way I look it, actually. I'm glad someone else has brought this theory up; I don't think I've seen it mentioned anywhere else :cool:

[alinda]

Wow! HiWigz, welcome to the site. Can you please edit that first post with spoiler tags ( just in case) there are many here who have'nt finished the series yet.
You can access spoiler tags by clicking on the icon that looks radioactive on the tool bar.:thumbsup:

[Candice Dionysus]

It could be worded a bit better, but I get the point.

It would be nice to see a further continuation of this at some point down the road when more people are familiar with Browning and King's pieces of the story...

Or when it's been so long the stories have fallen from the minds of the population with the exception of a few people to whom it was passed by their parents. XD

[Wigz]

Yeah i didnt know exactly how to word it. The idea came to me today after i finished dt7.

[Letti]

King is the wordslinger so IMHO I think he is the only one who can tell Roland's story. If there are many Eddies out there why wouldn't many Kings be out there? I can't imagine anyone else telling this incredible story but him.
But it's just me.

[pathoftheturtle]

... If there are many Eddies out there why wouldn't many Kings be out there? ...I prefer to think that there are, although it might contradict the logic of some of what we're told about Keystone Earth. Even if there are many Stephen Kings in many worlds writing about many other worlds, other authors of past and future still might have part in the songs of the beams, as well. I do tend to think that King himself would like to see future writers take interest.

[WeDealInLead]

I wasn't sure where to ask this so I'll leave it here. Does Roland simply get sent to the desert or does he get sent to the desert back in time? Both options could work but I'm thinking he doesn't go back through time. If he really is as old as we're led to believe he is, he isn't getting sent back through time because everything else in his world has moved on... except him. The people in River Crossing remember him but only the oldest person there and there he is, looking 40-50-ish/whatever and Gunslingers have thought to be gone for generations. If he ends up there again in the next loop they all might be dead of old age or noticably older and he will still looking seemingly same.

Thoughts?

[SynysterSaint]

Both options could work but I'm thinking he doesn't go back through time.

No, they don't. Randall Flagg is definitively dead by the end of the seventh book. If Roland doesn't go back in time, then the last line of the book makes no sense... King specifically recycles the opening line of the series. How could Roland chase a dead man?

[WeDealInLead]

Well, it is a new loop (I like the "spiral" theory more) so maybe it's a different Flagg (different Eddie, Jake etc) too.

You also forget that Flagg is one tough mother to kill. I'm not sure if you read The Stand so I won't spoil it for you but that last chapter is proof death is only temporary for the Man In Black. He himself also seems to know the nature of Roland's existence, so either someone (Gan, Crimson King, whoever) told him or he's been there through it all with him. A yin to his yang so to speak...

[pathoftheturtle]

Okay, so, the question appears to be, "If one goes into a different universe which is just like the past, and simultaneously loses all of one's memories back to that same past point, is that the same thing as travelling back to the past, or is it somehow something different in some undefinable sense?"

[WeDealInLead]

Everything is somehow different in some undefinable sense when it comes to TDT. Our journey with Roland was not his first journey. We don't know (I'm sure SK also doesn't have all the answers) if he always travels with Eddie, Susannah, Jake and Oy but I wish for argument's sake that we say that he does. He could still be sent to the desert in a continuos timeline (so basically just transported there) and have different Eddies, Susannahs and Jakes drawn to his world. If we're going with the theory he does have the same ka-tet, then even the loop we read about has different (but same, right?) members of ka-tet then the previous one. So it's not just quite possible but also likely that Flagg is a Flagg from a different world or he ressurected himself (like in The Stand).

How else is Roland a thousand years old? Yeah time is strange is his world but wouldn't be strange for everyone else too? I still go back to River Crossing for proof of this. Those people are old and not just in End-World sense, they're physically old.

So yeah, let's simplify. Time travel (not necessary, Eddie, Oy, Jake are dead, Susannah gone. He'll get a new ka-tet anyways) or just "travel" (again, he gets a new tet so he doesn't necessarily need time travel).

[SynysterSaint]

Well, it is a new loop (I like the "spiral" theory more) so maybe it's a different Flagg (different Eddie, Jake etc) too.

You also forget that Flagg is one tough mother to kill. I'm not sure if you read The Stand so I won't spoil it for you but that last chapter is proof death is only temporary for the Man In Black.

1) It is my belief that there is only one Randall Flagg within the King universe. With a character as quintessential and dangerous as him, I couldn't imagine King wanting more than one.

2) Lucky for you, I just finished The Stand a few weeks ago ;) He doesn't die at the end, nor does he come close. Instead, he vanishes and transports himself somewhere else. He never died at the end of the book; he simply left. Flagg is human, after all; albeit a very special human. He can still be killed just the same as he had to be born. And Mordred killed that cat :P

[John_and_Yoko]

This has been mentioned before, I don't remember where, but I wanted to elaborate. If there's an appropriate thread already, please move this there.

As we know, the subtitle of The Waste Lands is "Redemption," and "Redemption" is also in the four-word subtitle of The Dark Tower VII.

Obviously we know that the former redemption refers to Roland's relationship with Jake, and the latter to the fact that clearly Roland has redeemed himself somewhat by the end of the loop that we read about (call it "loop #99"), at least enough that he now has the Horn of Eld when he starts the next loop ("loop #100"), where he didn't before. This leads one to wonder if the two might be linked--if they're not identical they must at least have something to do with each other, surely.

Anyway, I wanted to take this a step further and into speculative territory--I don't even know if Stephen King himself has definitive answers either way. I'm specifically speculating on loops #98 (the one BEFORE the one we read about) and #100 (the one AFTER the one we read about) with regard to Roland's relationship with Jake.

Since Roland achieves "redemption" in The Waste Lands with regard to Jake, this suggests to me what might have happened in the loops before and after. Perhaps in loop #98 Roland abandoned Jake to his death in the mines and didn't allow himself to feel guilty enough about it (though that's not to say he felt NO guilt at all) to try to "undo" what he'd done. Hence in that loop, Jake never officially became part of the ka-tet at all, and later members never knew him personally. Hence why a new loop was needed.

That being the case, perhaps in loop #100 Roland did not abandon Jake to his death in the mines at all, and Jake survived throughout the loop to whatever end, in which case no redemption was needed as far as Jake was concerned when the ka-tet found the Path of the Beam. And that being the case, plus having the Horn of Eld, it might be that loop #100 would be his last, Roland's final "redemption."

Thoughts?

[arrawyn]

i just finished the series (well, yesterday) and i loved the ending! and i love it more the more I think about it. it just really gets you thinking!

And i'm sorry if this has been said before...but here's my thought as to how Roland could break the loop/cycle. everyone (and King himself) stated that the real joy in a quest/journey is the journey itself, and not just reaching the destination.

at first Roland looked in all the rooms, and remembered bits of his past that were shown to him. and people learn and grow and change from the past and looking back on it. but then he got impatient and just wanted to get to his destination (the top and to see what's up there) and skipped a whole lot of rooms and therefore memories of his far past, or even his more recent past, maybe because they might've been painful or whatever (but we can learn a lot, even from painful / bad moments/memories in our lives).

So i think because he skipped all these rooms/memories and didn't fully examine himself as a person and grow from what he saw in the rooms (and remembered) and could then apply what he'd learned to his current self/situation, the Tower flung him back to the beginning.

IMO i think the loop could stop when Roland is patient and takes the time to look into all the rooms (into all his memories and experiences and what makes him who he is). and so that when he gets to the top, he'll be a whole person. and will have savoured his whole journey (i.e. also his whole life at the same time) and therefore won't need to be sent back again to do it over again. Maybe each time he does it, he goes and looks in a couple more rooms than the time before, and then gets impatient again and doesn't care about the journey, just the destination.

mind you, i wonder what he would see at the top if he did look back on his whole life/all experiences? maybe just nothing, or maybe just himself looking back at himself in a mirror or something. or...maybe he will finally be so complete in himself that he can now go to the clearing at the end of the path and he can move on from there...

[pathoftheturtle]

As I recall it, he was less impatient than horrified. Didn't he stop looking after he reached the level on which Susan burned?

The really terrible part is the passage wherein he fears for a moment that the stairway might just go upward forever. He talks himself out of it with the realization that it was his life that he was seeing, and that his life had not been eternal. This seems so terrible now because that rationale is no longer so certain... :|

[arrawyn]

As I recall it, he was less impatient than horrified. Didn't he stop looking after he reached the level on which Susan burned?

The really terrible part is the passage wherein he fears for a moment that the stairway might just go upward forever. He talks himself out of it with the realization that it was his life that he was seeing, and that his life had not been eternal. This seems so terrible now because that rationale is no longer so certain... :|


yes, that is true he started running once he saw Susan's room because he didn't want to think about that. but I think he should want to try and face up to his memories (good and bad).

that's true about his fear about that it might go on forever but then he talks himself out of it...but it turns out he was right.

[SynysterSaint]

yes, that is true he started running once he saw Susan's room because he didn't want to think about that. but I think he should want to try and face up to his memories (good and bad).

that's true about his fear about that it might go on forever but then he talks himself out of it...but it turns out he was right.

I think what's so special about Roland's Tower is what he would see when he reaches the rooms starting at the desert. I think that there would start to be multiple rooms on each floor to show each of his different loops at that point. Only then would he be able to reconcile the fact that he's been through this before and finally realize what he needs to reach the true top. I think that's why it's important that he started running after seeing Susan's room; it was soon after her burning that events in his past started changing (such as his getting the Horn at the end of the loop we read about). However, he wouldn't understand the true history he's been through until he reaches the real desert door instead of just skipping through to the top.

[l0rdhelmet223]

Ka is a wheel, maybe it's as simple as the only way the beams continue to hold is because Roland is in an eternal loop... perhaps if Roland were to reach the tower without causing so much suffering on his quest he would reach the top and it would crumble and all universes with it.:panic::panic::panic:

[Brainslinger]

I don't think so, because he has saved the Tower before he reaches the top.

Of course he get's sent back to when it is in jeopardy again. If it ever truly is since it seems to be his ka to save the Tower. I don't think things are that definite however.

[pathoftheturtle]

It makes me wonder how the Multiverse survived through loop # 1, when Roland must have been a real caveman.
Perhaps the machinations of the CK faced by this ka-tet were not the same for others. Could it be that when Roland started, there were no alternate universes? Scene and actor may have evolved together.
I've always found it interesting that that revising of time occurs during the quest. To change the world, Roland wants to get to the Tower, but he can't reach it without ka, and the world IS changed by the path he finds that he must take.
Was this loop where Roland does bring Jake back "needed" in order to make Roland worthy to approach Gan, or is the real point that there was a need for there to exist a world in which Jake lives?
It's the extraversion-introversion dualism. Do we learn to work or do we work to learn? Is Roland making himself ready for a better world, or making the world ready for his better self?

[arrawyn]

i just had a thought about why the loop might start where it does when posting in another thread. Roland's made a lot of agonizing choice on his journey to the Tower. It might be that every time roland deals the right way with one of the big /crucial choices in his life, the next time he does the loop he starts over past that 'resovled' choice in his life, and closer to when the next agonizing choice in his life occurs that he'll need to choice one way or other other (one is 'correct', the other not).

so maybe originally the loop started early on in his life and if he dealt with something wrong the first time, the loop would go back and have him re-do that part (and everything else) til it was 'fixed' and then the loop would move up in time and he would have less to repeat. like susan. the loop starts after susan dies, so maybe he's resolved/fixed/chosen the right thing to do in that part of his life (i.e. susan was meant to die- ka). maybe the first however many loops roland did something different (i.e. somehow saved susan from death), but because that wasn't the 'correct' choice, he repeated the loop before that moment until he acted correctly.

so that the reason the loop starts where it is (basically before meeting jake and letting him fall) is because he's let jake fall and that's the wrong choice and maybe the next loop if he doesn't let jake fall, the next time the loop repeats it will start later on? (i.e. maybe on the beach having something to do with O'Detta/Detta, or one of Eddie Dean's mobster guys, or maybe even having let Jack Mort die (before getting back thru - because wasn't he really supposed to be drawn? but wasn't because he died on the way back?). maybe if Jack Mort lived and was drawn, maybe the next loop will continue further along the path, maybe with Oy, or something in Rivers Crossing, or Lud or...i don't know.

Just a thought that came to me right now. don't know if its already been suggested.

[pathoftheturtle]

i just had a thought about why the loop might start where it does when posting in another thread. ...Ah. Guess I should have read this before I added to that thread, then. Sorry. :unsure:


...let Jack Mort die ... wasn't he really supposed to be drawn? ...Who would suppose such a thing as that? Sounds like anti-ka to me... :orely:

[Brainslinger]

i just had a thought about why the loop might start where it does when posting in another thread. Roland's made a lot of agonizing choice on his journey to the Tower. It might be that every time roland deals the right way with one of the big /crucial choices in his life, the next time he does the loop he starts over past that 'resovled' choice in his life, and closer to when the next agonizing choice in his life occurs that he'll need to choice one way or other other (one is 'correct', the other not).

so maybe originally the loop started early on in his life and if he dealt with something wrong the first time, the loop would go back and have him re-do that part (and everything else) til it was 'fixed' and then the loop would move up in time and he would have less to repeat.

I seem to remember it being stated at the end of The Dark Tower, that he is always returned to the same point. I do like your idea though.

[Seneschal]

thank you Path, for pointing me here...great discussion...


I'm going to have to say I agree very much with SynysterSaint's theory.

If I may, Dagavidiab... If Gan wants Roland to save the Tower in the first place, this shows that Gan is somewhat of a loving deity. If we can assume this is so, it may be that in saving the Tower, Gan came to love Roland more than before he did so, and so the loop is less a punishment for losing his humanity, and more an act of pity on Gan's part. And an act of love. And through this act of love and pity, Gan presents to Roland multiple opportunities to save the Tower and his own humanity in the bargain. If I were Gan, I feel I may have done so in the same manner; each time Roland is able to salvage a small part of his humanity, Gan presents him with another gift to allow for him to save more of his own humanity, and thus, after X amount of loops, Roland will finally be able to continue on with "life as normal," for lack of a better term. The loops are determined to continue until Roland can reach the Tower with his full humanity intact, and thus are dependant to continue as long as necessary, as determined by Rolands own actions. So the loops only continue as long as Roland "needs" them to, and as soon as he achieves what Gan has presented the opportunity for, the loops, or the spiral, as Letti likes to think of it, and which I like to think of it as well, will finally reach an end, and Roland will be allowed to continue loop/spiral free on his own continuing Ka.

sometimes i become very conflicted about the meaning of the loop when thinking about this "theory-arc" (if you please, say thankya).

it is the Tower, the voice of the Tower, that tells Roland "Death. But not for you Gunslinger, Never for you. You darkle. You tinct. May I be brutally frank? You go on." This is as Roland is reaching the top and is about to be pushed through to the desert. My focus is on the "Never for you." if Gan's intention was to give Roland more chances at saving himself, it would seem to contradict this statement since Gan would know whether it was possible for Roland to redeem himself or not. So to say "never" and then send him on his quest anyway seems rather cruel. In the end, Gan seems to have no hand in whether Roland repeats his quest or not. so, in this theory, the Tower and Gan cannot be one and the same. No one has outright said they are, however sometimes the will of the Tower and that of Gan are used interchangeably in these discussions (even King himself does this in the books, even though he presents varying degrees of contradictory evidence)

that being said, it would be logical to conclude that the Tower wants something else from Roland. Perhaps the Tower wants Roland to be satisfied with the completion of his quest. The Tower, clearly aware on some level, knows Roland would only be disappointed with what he finds inside, when compared to the friendships, knowledge, wisdom, and growth he has found on the journey there. His "redemption" is letting go. Much as King himself emplores us to do at the end of OUR quest, when we have finally reached the Tower.

again, much of this is predicated upon the theory arc in question. still an interesting thought though.



Do we all get such opportunities for redemption? If so, why should it be that Roland is to be saved by a different process? Do ours come to us through similar means, perhaps?


like Roland, would we even know that we were on our own "salvation quest"....?

[theplayer01]

After redressing the books again recently I can't help to think that Roland starts again in the dessert because that is when he died. Either the trap in the town finished him or just dying of thirst. If you look at each character they all have a moment when they could have been killed before coming to Rolands world. Suzanna in the civil rights arrest, Eddie at just about any point during his drug smuggling. My guess would be when the guy brought him the china white. And Jake of course getting hit by the car. They never remixes they moved on. Heck even with the ending for suzanna seem to me when she can let go of this life and go to heaven. So for Roland until he can let go and move on he is stuck.

[Brainslinger]

That's an interesting thought provoking take on it theplayer01!

Death certainly isn't the 'all finisher' that it seems to be in our world, considering Jake and Callahan, unless it happens in the Keystone Earth, and even that's not certain when Susannah meets the Toren brothers. (I know they are different versions, but in a way they seem to truly be the same people when considering the dreams, etc.) I even like to think Callahan is still out there somewhere walking the highways in hiding. There even seemed to be a suggestion of this in his death scene.

[Matt19]

Stephen King is the chracter in the books that created roland. therefore the loop has to start at the beginning of the first book where king first created the character. There was no roland before 'the man in black fled across the desert....' quite simple!

[Yaksha]

My idea is basically whenever he gets sent back, the choices he made and what he was able to let go of and realise what he did wrong gets resolved and he regains his humanity piece by piece. He realises friends and companions are to be cherished not used. And what he should have done before. Like the horn. He realised he should have grabbed the horn from Cuthberts body before he left Jericho Hill but he didnt. Maybe that was the first time in all the loops he ever made that connection. It may come to be that this time he will finally be able to finish the loop and be at peace since he has the horn.

[Doe]

... If there are many Eddies out there why wouldn't many Kings be out there? ...I prefer to think that there are, although it might contradict the logic of some of what we're told about Keystone Earth. Even if there are many Stephen Kings in many worlds writing about many other worlds, other authors of past and future still might have part in the songs of the beams, as well. I do tend to think that King himself would like to see future writers take interest.

I cant really dissagree with that, Would be interesting to see other authors take on it

[BROWNINGS CHILDE]

I actually have a new bit of fan fiction that takes up the story where it left off. Tell me what you think.

The Man In Black fled across the desert, and the Gunslinger followed.... yaddah,yaddah,yaddah....plot development...character development....something about a train....new characters......tense moments....backstory.......something about wolves......a somewhat awkward, unnecessary installment....tragedy.....climax....catharsis.... .The Man In Black fled across the desert, and the Gunslinger followed.
The End.

[Doe]

:clap:

[anima13]

Has the concept of Eternal Return already been discussed? I don't wanna go through thousands of post right now so I thought I'd ask. :D

[Letti]

Has the concept of Eternal Return already been discussed? I don't wanna go through thousands of post right now so I thought I'd ask. :D

What do you mean by 'Eternal Return' exactly? I am really sorry if the answer is very obvious.
Welcome to the site. :)

[Letti]

Stephen King is the chracter in the books that created roland. therefore the loop has to start at the beginning of the first book where king first created the character. There was no roland before 'the man in black fled across the desert....' quite simple!

King didn't create Roland. King is the wordslinger who spreads the story of Roland, the last gunslinger and this way he protects the Tower and the Beams. King is no creator. Not in the book. If I remember well it's written down many times.

[anima13]

Oh, I've been lurking around here for a long time. Thanks. :D

Eternal Return (AKA Eternal Recurrence)

In addition, the philosophical concept of eternal recurrence was addressed by Arthur Schopenhauer. It is a purely physical concept, involving no supernatural reincarnation, but the return of beings in the same bodies. Time is viewed as being not linear but cyclical.

~Source: Wikipedia.

[pathoftheturtle]

Not in so many words, to my knowledge, but we have often discussed philosophically how this concept and related ones apply to TDT, and vice versa.
Here's an interesting thread: Is it possible that LIFE is like that...?!?!
(http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?10772-Is-it-possible-that-LIFE-is-like-that...-!-!)

Also, you might like to read overhoser's thoughts on incompossibility, here (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?8911-Many-different-Rolands&p=458064&viewfull=1#post458064).

[johnnyonthespot1]

Stephen King is the chracter in the books that created roland. therefore the loop has to start at the beginning of the first book where king first created the character. There was no roland before 'the man in black fled across the desert....' quite simple!

Actually, I think the simplest explanation is this: "The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed" is an incredibly cool line that readers have cited and repeated for decades. King fell back onto this line because he simply couldn't figure out any other way to end the series.

I hate to say it but I really think this is the true explanation for the ending. Sorry, I just finished reading DT7 for the first time and I am supremely disappointed (although the coda was hardly the worst sin in this final installment).

[Sefear]

I just finished the series a month ago and I never thought it was a moral thing on "saving Roland's soul or changing things like dropping Jake".
My personal belief is that Roland has to redo his quest on a new level of the tower every time he enters the loop until he saves it on all the major levels of the multiverse. (and I think there is a keystone earth on each of those levels). Once he's saved the tower on every level then he can finally enter the top room and meet his destiny.

Remember Walter's speech "there are an infinite number of worlds, and our universe might only be a small speck of grass in a much grander scheme."

[Jean]

I just finished the series a month ago and I never thought it was a moral thing on "saving Roland's soul or changing things like dropping Jake".
My personal belief is that Roland has to redo his quest on a new level of the tower every time he enters the loop until he saves it on all the major levels of the multiverse. (and I think there is a keystone earth on each of those levels).

... until he is replaced by a mechanism which will do the same more efficiently. What's, according to you, the point of having a live man as the savior of the Tower?

[Sefear]

Not sure if I understand what your saying but yea I'm suggesting Roland is the savior of the Tower. No offense but I don't know how a machine will be able to replace the gunslinger and what he did during his quest, or how you came up with that idea?

[flaggwalkstheline]

Stephen King is the chracter in the books that created roland. therefore the loop has to start at the beginning of the first book where king first created the character. There was no roland before 'the man in black fled across the desert....' quite simple!

King didn't create Roland. King is the wordslinger who spreads the story of Roland, the last gunslinger and this way he protects the Tower and the Beams. King is no creator. Not in the book. If I remember well it's written down many times.

that, to me, is the series' greatest accomplishment. The complete blurring of fiction and reality.

[sullivan19]

I look at this from two sides.

First, it's the point where we all started our journey, including SK as author. I started with the revised version, so picked up with the momentary dizziness, the point Roland enters himself via the the Door at the top of the Tower, so it all makes sense to me to go back to that point. I actually read the first few pages of The Gunslinger as soon as I read the last of The Dark Tower.

Second, through the eyes of the character, it is THE point (IMO) where Rolands journey really kicks on and its all or nothing from this point out. Flagg/Walter suggests this during his final words when talking to Mordred in the Fedic Dogan. Its when he realised The Gunslinger was on his trail, thus the chase is on.

[pathoftheturtle]

Not sure if I understand what your saying but yea I'm suggesting Roland is the savior of the Tower. No offense but I don't know how a machine will be able to replace the gunslinger and what he did during his quest, or how you came up with that idea?I think the question was about the meaning of life. In some ways, I kind of like your theory myself, but if Gan is not at all concerned with moral things or saving souls, then isn't using people for any scheme nothing but cruel?

[Jean]

Not sure if I understand what your saying but yea I'm suggesting Roland is the savior of the Tower. No offense but I don't know how a machine will be able to replace the gunslinger and what he did during his quest, or how you came up with that idea?I think the question was about the meaning of life. In some ways, I kind of like your theory myself, but if Gan is not at all concerned with moral things or saving souls, then isn't using people for any scheme nothing but cruel? Quite. Or, if we dismiss the anthropological aspect altogether, the difference between a person, endowed with soul, and any efficient mechanism becomes merely quantitative.

[pathoftheturtle]

Piss on nineteen.

"Keystone Earth" is redundant. Destiny is all.

[RolandLover]

You think that Roland going through 99 loops will always have Jake, Eddie, and Susannah? What if it's a new person he meets at the weigh station and he lets him/her die in the mines? I would hope it is a different person personally as we know all about this ka tet, and for me when Jake actually dies for the 3rd time in book 7, I didn't feel it as much as I should have because of that. I cried when Eddie died. with the Horn of the Eld, I think his "last" loop will be his redemption and not let the next "Jake" die in the mines.

[The Road Virus]

Shouldn't all this stuff (or the thread title) have spoiler warnings?

I am not effected because I have finished the series (and sorry if it is marked somehow and I am in the wrong) but what about those that have not? Big end-spoiling spoilers are a-foot in this thread

they should probably be tagged

[Jean]

Shouldn't all this stuff (or the thread title) have spoiler warnings?No. It's TDT 7 forum, which means no spoilers for all the seven volumes.

[The Road Virus]

:lol:

Proceed, I'll leave it to the professionals from now on.

At first I hated the loop ending but it started to grow on me and I can appreciate (commend) if an author can make his magnum opus technically never end.

[getabettereraser]

no Redundancy check needed then?

[pathoftheturtle]

:unsure: I mean, if people get no do-overs in the real world, then the literal story of Roland isn't really very important. I can imagine him laboring to save us and our counterparts in infinite alternate worlds, but I'm bound to lose interest in that dream pretty quickly if there's no reflection to our genuine situations.

[Nozz-A-La]

I just started rereading the series a while ago, and I'm on Wolves of the Calla right now. There are a couple of paragraphs in the book that got me thinking. If the Tower, or Gan, is punishing Roland by having him constantly repeat his journey to the Tower to try to find redemption, isn't this also happening to his entire Ka-Tet? There was a part in Wolves when Eddie is getting on a horse for the first time, and when he is shown how to adjust the stirrups he gets a feeling of Deja Vu and thinks about reincarnation and that he's done this 'a thousand times before.'

I think this stuff is only thought about by Eddie, but I could be wrong. Just thought this was interesting.

[Darkthoughts]

There have been quite a few discussions on exactly this point, so good call! I'm going to move and merge this thread to the Dark Tower subforum in The Baronies. It'll be merged with the official Loop thread :thumbsup:

[Coolbreeze78]

I just finished reading the series over a five year period. Even though I own every King novel written, these are the first I have actually read all the way through. (Not because he isn't good, it's just that I have ADHD, which is why it took five years to finish)

So, I really enjoyed the ending but there are a few parts I am confused on. I have started reading The Road to the Dark Tower to tie up some of the loose ends but maybe you all have a better understanding.

To me, the ending felt like he was trapped in hell as punishment for losing his soul. He was condemned to relive every mistake he made and to carry his guilt as a burden for all of eternity. This almost seems fitting for being in hell. You get to the end of your life and think you can finally rest, but only get to see it start all over again and for a moment you are faced with that reality of knowing that you are in hell, as scary as it is, and then BOOM, you forget what happened and it starts all over.

One thing I haven't quite understood yet... is this series just one iteration of his life? If so, is the next one different? But more than that does he take with him into the new life what he had in the previous. For example, he has lost two of his fingers to the lobstrosoties, do these grow back like Susannah's legs do? If they don't and he relives similar events he wouldn't be able to lose them again when he gets to the beach. And if he has no memory of his past life, how does he explain where his fingers went?

At the end there was a mention about the Horn of Eld. I don't quite understand it's importance yet and maybe they will touch on it in the book later, but they say "The instrument is an important sigul dating back to Arthur Eld. Roland's failure to pick it up is an indicator that this iteration of his quest is doomed to fail." If that's true, aren't all iterations doomed to fail, as the horn was left on Jericho Hill and Roland starts his life over each time in the desert, years after the battle took place. Logically he would never be able to retrieve it if his course of events shadow this series of novels.

I am sure it would never happen now that the work is a masterpiece and is complete, but now that Roland has the horn in his latest iteration, it would be interesting if King wrote another series of novels following this incarnation to the end to see how the outcome changes. The funny thing is, even though the books I assume would be very similar in nature to the first series I am sure he would sell a ton of them all over again. ^.^ Btw, can't wait for the movie rights to get worked out!

[Merlin1958]

First off, welcome to the site!!!! Visit regularly and post often!!!

OK, lots of questions, but I'll do my best to offer up my and some generally held opinions regarding your thoughts, but in the end only your opinion will ultimately count for you.

Lots of folks believe that the story tells the tale of Rolands "19th loop.iteration" and the fact that he receives the Horn for the 20th signifies that it will be his last. It's not really a hell, IMHO, because he has no knowledge of past loops when he starts again. So he also has all his "body parts". Its generally believed that Roland has several "watershed" decisions to make evry time through the loop. As he :gets them right" so to speak he gets closer to the top of the Tower metaphorically. Hence this time through he is rewarded with the "Horn". I, and a few others, believe that Roland is actually a champion or representative for all mankind and as he/we evolves and gets closer to a "perfect" or more humane person/society the better his chances of actually succeeding in his quest. Basically, he suffers the "loops" for the benefit of mankind throughout the Multi-verse.

Biggest thing, IMHO is that he is not in "Hell" because he does not remember or know of previous loops. Each time through he has to make the same choices, but maybe has better character (?) to make them.

Any of that help?

[pathoftheturtle]

... I have started reading The Road to the Dark Tower to tie up some of the loose ends ...Good idea definitely. It features some terrific insights on the points you mentioned, and some other fascinating perspectives.
I hope you'll also read and get invovled in some of our various DT7 forum threads. :)


... I am sure it would never happen now that the work is a masterpiece and is complete, but now that Roland has the horn in his latest iteration, it would be interesting if King wrote another series of novels following this incarnation to the end to see how the outcome changes. ... can't wait for the movie rights to get worked out!It would be wonderful if the movies did a masterful take on that idea which I'm sure you're right that SK won't ever be doing, and showed a later iteration with a profound, vital ending.
It would be horrible if they did a lousy take on it and presented a ridiculous, corny alternate ending, though.

[beam*seeker]

I saw it less about being in Hell, and more about having to reincarnate as many times as it takes until he gets it right. And getting it right involves not losing the horn, since he needs to sound it before he comes to the tower for the last time. (and he probably needs to not drop that boy!)

[BigSchu22]

It would be wonderful if the movies did a masterful take on that idea which I'm sure you're right that SK won't ever be doing, and showed a later iteration with a profound, vital ending.
It would be horrible if they did a lousy take on it and presented a ridiculous, corny alternate ending, though.

This part of what pathoftheturtle said really reminds me of the Mass Effect 3 ending debacle that is currently happening right now.

I thought I would weigh-in again since my first thoughts after finishing the novels almost 2 years ago. I have now come to believe that the ending is perfect, after all Ka is a wheel isn't it? A lot of people have brought up Kharma and Buddhism and that each time through, one is rewarded with something that will help them end their journey.

Still, it's just nagging at me though, how can Roland ever learn anything if he doesn't remember anything from his previous iterations? How can he learn any lessons? He must have some sort of passing thought, memory, or intuition that leads him to make the correct decisions this time through his loop, otherwise it's just random choice that leads him to make the "correct" decisions. Also, while I think this will be his last iteration as evidenced by the Horn of Eld, I just feel as if he's never actually saving the tower (or anything) because he's doomed to repeat the same journey over and over again, if that makes sense.

As a side note, I would really be interested to see more of the old people in Roland's world. I know it is a world next to ours, but several references in the novels make it seems to be a very far futuristic version of our world so, I'd really like to know how the timeline goes in Roland's world/our world.

Specifically, I think it is in novel 6 or 7, when we see one of the mind sucking machines they used on the children from Wolves that says something about being in business since the year ten-thousands... does anyone remember that?

[TowerJunkie19]

I thought I would weigh-in again since my first thoughts after finishing the novels almost 2 years ago. I have now come to believe that the ending is perfect, after all Ka is a wheel isn't it? A lot of people have brought up Kharma and Buddhism and that each time through, one is rewarded with something that will help them end their journey.

Still, it's just nagging at me though, how can Roland ever learn anything if he doesn't remember anything from his previous iterations? How can he learn any lessons? He must have some sort of passing thought, memory, or intuition that leads him to make the correct decisions this time through his loop, otherwise it's just random choice that leads him to make the "correct" decisions. Also, while I think this will be his last iteration as evidenced by the Horn of Eld, I just feel as if he's never actually saving the tower (or anything) because he's doomed to repeat the same journey over and over again, if that makes sense.

I couldn't agree more with your view on the ending with Ka, Kharma and Buddhism. When I read the ending for the first time, the first thing I thought about was Ka and I honestly loved the ending and knowing that this time around will be different with Roland having the Horn of Eld. At the same time, I see where you're coming from with not understanding how Roland is learning any lessons. Throughout the book it describes how Roland has such a firm personality and process of decision making I don't see how having him go through the same loop with the Horn will change his thought process in the choices he made. The only way I can see his choices changing in this loop is if his personality characteristics changed when his fellow gunslingers died and he took possession of the Horn.

[fernandito]

The question that presses my mind the most is : Why ?

Why does Roland need to go through the loops ? Why does the Tower need him to go through these loops ? What is the ultimate goal ? What does Gan hope to gain ?

I'm sure that Arthur Eld - in all his wisdom - wasn't devoid of serious defects, did the Tower make Eld go through loops too ?

[blavigne]

The question that presses my mind the most is : Why ?

Why does Roland need to go through the loops ? Why does the Tower need him to go through these loops ? What is the ultimate goal ? What does Gan hope to gain ?

I'm sure that Arthur Eld - in all his wisdom - wasn't devoid of serious defects, did the Tower make Eld go through loops too ?

I am on my fourth re-read. I think the end is nothing more than a door back to the beginning of that part of the journey which is the point of the story. I become more convinced that Roland's journey will never end until another takes his place, not because of Roland or any other being, but because the tower requires it, by which I mean being constantly in peril and saved. Maybe it is designed that way (by Gan?), maybe it is just the way of the universe.

I also wonder why. But I do think maybe Arthur Eld did go through loops. Maybe the next one will be Susannah since she did have a choice to go on. If she had, perhaps Roland would have been given his rest and she would be the one "looping".

What I don't think is that it is because of Roland. I know he let Jake drop. He also renounced the tower for Jake later when he decided to step in front of the van so Jake would live. It didn't happen that way, but that was Ka not Roland's decision. Through this and a lot of other things throughout the story, I think Roland earned his redemption whether he actually needed it or not.

Just a few of my thoughts. The one thing I do know is that I LOVE this story, even it's flaws. I would not change any of it.

[Merlin1958]

I still maintain that Roland is a representative of humanity and therefore a metaphor for the whole human race. As we "get it right" so does Roland. The significance of the horn is a reward for humanity's progress. IMHO

[Jean]

I still maintain that Roland is a representative of humanity and therefore a metaphor for the whole human race. As we "get it right" so does Roland. The significance of the horn is a reward for humanity's progress. IMHObears can't help feeling that this view diminishes Roland somehow...

[fernandito]

jean - any thoughts on the questions I posed above ? I'd love to hear what bears think.

[Jean]

jean - any thoughts on the questions I posed above ? I'd love to hear what bears think.alas, bears are - you know - far too keen on where and how, but not so hot on why. I just think that this is the structure of the world. To go round, it needs heroes and saints (I already developed somewhere the idea that I view Roland as a plain old Catholic saint, akin to St.George, St Ignatius Loyola or St.Joan of Arc). The whys are interesting*, but from where bears stand, immaterial.

*the ones you've posted are definitely interesting enough for bears to give them another thought... especially the Arthur Eld question. Don't know whether he was perfect, or he (his personal salvation) just didn't really interest God (not enough to hinge the salvation of the universe on it anyway), having fully played his part and died like a person should.

[Merlin1958]

I still maintain that Roland is a representative of humanity and therefore a metaphor for the whole human race. As we "get it right" so does Roland. The significance of the horn is a reward for humanity's progress. IMHObears can't help feeling that this view diminishes Roland somehow...

Then perhaps I did not state it properly. I don't think it takes anything away from "Roland" the character. He thinks, he breathe's and he longs. Just that he is also a amalgam for the human race which, is also a part of his make-up. He is "any man & everyman". Better? I have to admit it's hard for me to put into words. Maybe 20 years ago I would do better, but for now this and a little imagination will have to do. Thanks for the post, Jean!!! Really!!!!

As a "Teacher" you have a way of "pushing" that every teacher does!!! Even though I'm a soon to be Grand-Dad!!! LOL

[Brainslinger]

how can Roland ever learn anything if he doesn't remember anything from his previous iterations? How can he learn any lessons? He must have some sort of passing thought, memory, or intuition that leads him to make the correct decisions this time through his loop,

I think that's it. I think he does take something from his previous loops but it's subconscious. Not so much a memory as a memory of a memory if you like. In effect I think that means he undergoes minute changes in his personality, although he doesn't quite remember how that happens. Who knows, maybe the inclusion of the Horn helps trigger some of those changes in his thought processes this time round... but I think he still has a long way to go. Many more turns on the roundabout.

I particularly find it interesting how the other members of his ka-tet have a sense of deja-vu as well. Taking to horse riding so easily for example. Of course that doesn't mean they're affected by the loop necessarily. It could be an indication of some form or reincarnation or 'twin mind pollination' (for example Cuthbert to Eddie for example). Like how people in one world will pick up impressions from their equivalent in another world, in The Talisman. But it could be an example of the looping affect. Not that I think they are looping themselves but I think they may still be aware on some higher (or is it lower?) level.

11.22.64 spoilers: Kinda like how the old lady somehow had the impression that she knew the novel's main protagonist, but she couldn't say how or where.

[Jon]

A good point with the '64 spoiler.

[BigSchu22]

how can Roland ever learn anything if he doesn't remember anything from his previous iterations? How can he learn any lessons? He must have some sort of passing thought, memory, or intuition that leads him to make the correct decisions this time through his loop,

I think that's it. I think he does take something from his previous loops but it's subconscious. Not so much a memory as a memory of a memory if you like. In effect I think that means he undergoes minute changes in his personality, although he doesn't quite remember how that happens. Who knows, maybe the inclusion of the Horn helps trigger some of those changes in his thought processes this time round... but I think he still has a long way to go. Many more turns on the roundabout.

I particularly find it interesting how the other members of his ka-tet have a sense of deja-vu as well. Taking to horse riding so easily for example. Of course that doesn't mean they're affected by the loop necessarily. It could be an indication of some form or reincarnation or 'twin mind pollination' (for example Cuthbert to Eddie for example). Like how people in one world will pick up impressions from their equivalent in another world, in The Talisman. But it could be an example of the looping affect. Not that I think they are looping themselves but I think they may still be aware on some higher (or is it lower?) level.

11.22.64 spoilers: Kinda like how the old lady somehow had the impression that she knew the novel's main protagonist, but she couldn't say how or where.

Well, we know that the characters -- or some of them at least -- must be looping with Roland because of what Walter says to Roland in the Golgotha... unless it's just him that recognizes this because of his supernatural nature.

The thought about Arthur Eld looping is interesting to me, I've seen it before in the forums and I'm wondering where people are getting this impression from? I only remember a few references to Eld throughout the novels, and I thought it was just a bastardization of Arthurian legend as most things seem to be in Roland's world (bastardizations of history). Or was Eld an actual leader of some type that brought about the monarchy after whatever apocalypse occurred in Roland's world, sort of a The Postman type figure who used the legend to create the new society?

[Brainslinger]

I thought it was just a bastardization of Arthurian legend as most things seem to be in Roland's world (bastardizations of history). Or was Eld an actual leader of some type that brought about the monarchy after whatever apocalypse occurred in Roland's world, sort of a The Postman type figure who used the legend to create the new society?

He was a real person in Roland's world. Roland is a direct descendant in fact via one of Arthur Eld's gillies. And his guns are made from the melted down blade of Excalibur. The Crimson King is descended from him too. According to the comics, his son by a spider demon seductress.

You can learn more about Arthur Eld from the comics (although it's debatable how canon one should consider those. My view is, if it's sanctioned by King and doesn't contradict the novels... well, you decide.) but Roland's ancestry from Eld and the origins of his guns are mentioned in the last novel The Dark Tower, I believe.

You're right, he came into power after the fall of the Great Old Ones when much of the world had become a poisoned wasteland. He brought stability and unity and fought with his gunslinger knights against the harriers plaguing the world at that time.

There is a strong suggestion in the comics that Arthur might have visited other worlds too. One of the comics states that he got his revolvers and possibly the sword from such a world. Whether he is the same Arthur as our world or a parallel universe version*, I'm not sure, but I'd go with the latter. I seem to remember reading somewhere that Eld was a kingdom in the ancient days which suggests he had a history Roland's world. Again debatable how legitimate one should take the comics. I accept some stuff, but not others.

Did Arthur/Is Arthur looping? Quite possibly. It seems he may well have visited the Tower too.

*'Twinner' if you'd like to use The Talisman parlance. I'm not sure of using that term here though as the relationship between twinners in The Dark Tower series isn't quite the same as that in the Talisman books.

[BigSchu22]

Thanks, Brainslinger, that was thorough and cleared some things up for me. I have all the comics on my wishlist right now. I'm waiting for the Waystation to be bound in a hard cover before I get all the others -- it's too much work to keep up with the individual comic issues, which is the same problem I'm having with the Farscape comics. :) Anyway, that makes a lot more sense now... especially if Eld was somehow able to travel to obtain Excalibur from another world.

I've read Talisman and Blackhouse and I know it is related to the DT series. In fact, we see the same hospital that Roland visits in the Little Sisters... so you're saying that possibly Eld was a twinner of King Arthur?

[Brainslinger]

so you're saying that possibly Eld was a twinner of King Arthur?

It's never actually stated but that's the impression I get. I guess it could be one guy crossing back and forth between worlds. Or what's true in Roland's world is a legend in ours, as in the story crossed universes in an altered form if that makes sense. (I like to think Arthur existed in our world though. )

[pathoftheturtle]

I still maintain that Roland is a representative of humanity and therefore a metaphor for the whole human race. As we "get it right" so does Roland. The significance of the horn is a reward for humanity's progress. IMHObears can't help feeling that this view diminishes Roland somehow...Do the people serve the king, or does the king serve the people?

I agree in theory Roland should be linked to humanity -- he founds a corporation and changes the course of history in one world -- but I'm not so sure he really is, as King wrote the tale. It's a messed up moral that suggests the hero should just worry more about himself... and such a suggestion runs contrary to every other theme in SK's career.

I think that when we ask why this happened to Roland, of course we need to start by finding basis for comparison: Is it true that other people usually go to Heaven or to Hell? If so, what makes him different? Or is this fate simply supposed to stand for one or the other of those, or the usual road thereunto? OR is that whole belief just not true in TDT mythos? Is Roland in fact being treated worse than most are for some reason, or is he for some other reason actually better off than the rest of us?

[Merlin1958]

I still maintain that Roland is a representative of humanity and therefore a metaphor for the whole human race. As we "get it right" so does Roland. The significance of the horn is a reward for humanity's progress. IMHObears can't help feeling that this view diminishes Roland somehow...Do the people serve the king, or does the king serve the people?

I agree in theory Roland should be linked to humanity -- he founds a corporation and changes the course of history in one world -- but I'm not so sure he really is, as King wrote the tale. It's a messed up moral that suggests the hero should just worry more about himself... and such a suggestion runs contrary to every other theme in SK's career.

I think that when we ask why this happened to Roland, of course we need to start by finding basis for comparison: Is it true that other people usually go to Heaven or to Hell? If so, what makes him different? Or is this fate simply supposed to stand for one or the other of those, or the usual road thereunto? OR is that whole belief just not true in TDT mythos? Is Roland in fact being treated worse than most are for some reason, or is he for some other reason actually better off than the rest of us?

Well, he does have a sort of sick immortality, but I have always thought of Roland as a kind of "Tragic Hero" and not really a "person" so to speak. Don't get me wrong he lives and breathe's and thinks and has choices, but he is also a kind of "tool" or mechanism of "Gan". It's very difficult for me to put into words, but he does have a certain "Mythic plight" IMHO I guess the best way to put it might be that "Roland" is a part of "Gan's" being much like the Holy trinity of God, Son and Holy Ghost.

We're getting rather deep here!!! LOL

[pathoftheturtle]

I have been thinking that it may just be metaphor for humanity's generational struggle. The tragedy of life as we know it is that one only obtains wisdom when one is no longer able to use it. You struggle to build a life, and then you die. At most, you get to see your child begin his own struggle. So it's like, even if there is a welcome at the top of the Tower, there's always a hero trying to reach it. The world as a whole never changes. The quest continues no matter how many try to complete it.

[Empath of the White]

I've been reading Michael Moorcock's Elric novels/short stories/comic scripts, and the concept there of an Eternal Champion is reminiscent of Roland...or perhaps I should say what King did with Roland is reminiscent of Moorcock's Champion. Thus, I like the idea that the Tower uses Roland to protect Itself. It offers him the allure of knowledge behind the "breaking down" of his world, only to snatch it away once the present threat to the Tower is removed and Roland is near the end.

[sgc1999]

I too wonder why the desert, particularly for those who feel the loop is some kind of "do-over" that Roland has to get "right" before he is released from the cycle. As far as that goes, I think Lisa's answer is as good as any.

For me, not necessarily believing that the loops are the same every time, I think there are two reasons of "why the desert." (1) I think the only thing that is the same is Walter and the desert is where he found Walter's trail, and (2) with the cyclical ending, King wanted to bring things back to the literal beginning of the series.

True, after all, KA is a wheel:)

[sgc1999]

I have been thinking that it may just be metaphor for humanity's generational struggle. The tragedy of life as we know it is that one only obtains wisdom when one is no longer able to use it. You struggle to build a life, and then you die. At most, you get to see your child begin his own struggle. So it's like, even if there is a welcome at the top of the Tower, there's always a hero trying to reach it. The world as a whole never changes. The quest continues no matter how many try to complete it.

I think there is Victory for a very few who get it right. Roland did not at the end of this series anyway, Why? maybe because he IS a gunslinger keeps chosing this path. You know...the whole "the road to life is narrow and few are the ones finding it..." :)

[Brice]

Seeing Jayson's post quoted reminds me how much I miss him being here with us.

[NickP]

Is it possible that this whole story is a sort of purgatory for Roland? Maybe he has already died, and each time he goes through this quest it cleanses his sins and teaches him to be a better man. He clearly becomes much more emotional and attached to his ka-mates throughout the series. Maybe when he finally completes his journey and has cleansed his sins, he'll find the "Clearing at the end of the path" when he walks through the door at the top of the Dark Tower. Maybe his real life was similar to this journey, but he was forced to complete it again and again until he was ready to enter the clearing. Or maybe his real life was something completely different, and all of this was just his own afterlife.

[Jean]

wouldn't it make dummies of all the others?

[BobbyOodle]

I am confused about his restarting in Mohaine desert too, especially since he obviously re-did stuff in the past. Case and point, the horn of Eld.

The reason King did this, I believe, is first and foremost, he wanted an ending where the beginning was the ending, and that he loved the line "The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed" so much that he had to use it again.

But the story context wise is that Ka is wheel. And it never stops.

My question for you folk is; do you think that Roland is above Ka? (or just the deschain's for that matter)
Do you think that he was made a part of ka? What's the word, for puppet of Ka? Cordelia in Wizard and Glass was one. What if Roland is just a puppet of Ka?

Also, I think that the Tower (or Ka) wants Roland to do his story right. I think Roland has to let his whole Ka-tet either 1) survive with him and make it to the Tower or 2) find a life for them as there was a life for Susannah. The Tower doesn't think that Roland's true and final family should die the way that they did.

I think starting over at Mohaine is more for the reader than for the timeline. It brings you back to directly the start, and since he obviously re did other aspects of his life, this wasn't his only starting point.

Thoughts?

[pathoftheturtle]

It's a punishment and a reward at the same time. That's the real paradox. Roland thinks he's sent to that moment precisely because it's too late for him to change anything, which would just be vindictive if you view the Tower as the power above him. Maybe the point that things further back can in fact also change is exactly what the horn means, and the reason it represents his chance of redemption.

[Merlin1958]

I am confused about his restarting in Mohaine desert too, especially since he obviously re-did stuff in the past. Case and point, the horn of Eld.

The reason King did this, I believe, is first and foremost, he wanted an ending where the beginning was the ending, and that he loved the line "The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed" so much that he had to use it again.

But the story context wise is that Ka is wheel. And it never stops.

My question for you folk is; do you think that Roland is above Ka? (or just the deschain's for that matter)
Do you think that he was made a part of ka? What's the word, for puppet of Ka? Cordelia in Wizard and Glass was one. What if Roland is just a puppet of Ka?

Also, I think that the Tower (or Ka) wants Roland to do his story right. I think Roland has to let his whole Ka-tet either 1) survive with him and make it to the Tower or 2) find a life for them as there was a life for Susannah. The Tower doesn't think that Roland's true and final family should die the way that they did.

I think starting over at Mohaine is more for the reader than for the timeline. It brings you back to directly the start, and since he obviously re did other aspects of his life, this wasn't his only starting point.

Thoughts?

Well see now these questions seem to be answered in large part by my "pet theory" that Roland is the metaphorical representative of the evolution of mankind. As "we" make ourselves better as a people then conversely that is reflected in Roland's choices in the loop.

I believe I elaborated on this "theory" of mine much better in earlier posts. It's my "story" and I'm sticking to it!!! LOL

[Jean]

My question for you folk is; do you think that Roland is above Ka?yes

[BobbyOodle]

My question for you folk is; do you think that Roland is above Ka?yes

Explain why you think so, say please and thank ya.
Haha, sorry I'm just re-familiarizing myself with the slang.

[BobbyOodle]

I am confused about his restarting in Mohaine desert too, especially since he obviously re-did stuff in the past. Case and point, the horn of Eld.

The reason King did this, I believe, is first and foremost, he wanted an ending where the beginning was the ending, and that he loved the line "The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed" so much that he had to use it again.

But the story context wise is that Ka is wheel. And it never stops.

My question for you folk is; do you think that Roland is above Ka? (or just the deschain's for that matter)
Do you think that he was made a part of ka? What's the word, for puppet of Ka? Cordelia in Wizard and Glass was one. What if Roland is just a puppet of Ka?

Also, I think that the Tower (or Ka) wants Roland to do his story right. I think Roland has to let his whole Ka-tet either 1) survive with him and make it to the Tower or 2) find a life for them as there was a life for Susannah. The Tower doesn't think that Roland's true and final family should die the way that they did.

I think starting over at Mohaine is more for the reader than for the timeline. It brings you back to directly the start, and since he obviously re did other aspects of his life, this wasn't his only starting point.

Thoughts?

Well see now these questions seem to be answered in large part by my "pet theory" that Roland is the metaphorical representative of the evolution of mankind. As "we" make ourselves better as a people then conversely that is reflected in Roland's choices in the loop.

I believe I elaborated on this "theory" of mine much better in earlier posts. It's my "story" and I'm sticking to it!!! LOL

Okay, so what is the endgame goal? What happens when mankind has evolved enough that Roland makes all of the right choices? And if humankind takes a turn for the worse, and becomes a cruel, morbid, awful dictatorship in its entirety? Would Roland then try to take over or destroy the tower instead of saving it?

With just thinking about your theory, is the "Mankind" that you are thinking about just every mankind in every world in the concept of everything? As in, the non-keystone worlds.

[Jean]

My question for you folk is; do you think that Roland is above Ka?yes

Explain why you think so, say please and thank ya.
Haha, sorry I'm just re-familiarizing myself with the slang.

I might have to go through my earlier posts (I've posted a shit ton of arguments on this subject in last eight years), but in short: the Dark Tower reads to me as a thoroughly Christian book, whether Sai King himself wanted it or not. A man, Roland or you or me, is above such a void concept as Ka, by definition of man: a being created in the image of God and endowed with free will

[Merlin1958]

I am confused about his restarting in Mohaine desert too, especially since he obviously re-did stuff in the past. Case and point, the horn of Eld.

The reason King did this, I believe, is first and foremost, he wanted an ending where the beginning was the ending, and that he loved the line "The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed" so much that he had to use it again.

But the story context wise is that Ka is wheel. And it never stops.

My question for you folk is; do you think that Roland is above Ka? (or just the deschain's for that matter)
Do you think that he was made a part of ka? What's the word, for puppet of Ka? Cordelia in Wizard and Glass was one. What if Roland is just a puppet of Ka?

Also, I think that the Tower (or Ka) wants Roland to do his story right. I think Roland has to let his whole Ka-tet either 1) survive with him and make it to the Tower or 2) find a life for them as there was a life for Susannah. The Tower doesn't think that Roland's true and final family should die the way that they did.

I think starting over at Mohaine is more for the reader than for the timeline. It brings you back to directly the start, and since he obviously re did other aspects of his life, this wasn't his only starting point.

Thoughts?

Well see now these questions seem to be answered in large part by my "pet theory" that Roland is the metaphorical representative of the evolution of mankind. As "we" make ourselves better as a people then conversely that is reflected in Roland's choices in the loop.

I believe I elaborated on this "theory" of mine much better in earlier posts. It's my "story" and I'm sticking to it!!! LOL

Okay, so what is the endgame goal? What happens when mankind has evolved enough that Roland makes all of the right choices? And if humankind takes a turn for the worse, and becomes a cruel, morbid, awful dictatorship in its entirety? Would Roland then try to take over or destroy the tower instead of saving it?

With just thinking about your theory, is the "Mankind" that you are thinking about just every mankind in every world in the concept of everything? As in, the non-keystone worlds.

"Mankind" would be defined as that of the Keystone world. The more Mankind evolves the closer Roland gets to the room at the top and enlightenment. Just my pet theory is all. Initially I was pretty pissed at the ending, but this little theory helped me come to terms with it on subsequent readings. LOL

[pathoftheturtle]

My question for you folk is; do you think that Roland is above Ka?yes

Explain why you think so, say please and thank ya.
Haha, sorry I'm just re-familiarizing myself with the slang.

I might have to go through my earlier posts (I've posted a shit ton of arguments on this subject in last eight years), but in short: the Dark Tower reads to me as a thoroughly Christian book, whether Sai King himself wanted it or not. A man, Roland or you or me, is above such a void concept as Ka, by definition of man: a being created in the image of God and endowed with free willOh, Stephen King! Creates a brilliant concept like ka, gets it all tangled up with horror. Of course, his God is kind of monstrous, too. Potentially at least. Hard to blame him though: real life itself can look pretty dark. But although there are cycles and wheels aplenty in nature, hope springs eternal.

[JoeLocc425]

This is a great point. I like what you said about the tower having an issue with Roland._

[JoeLocc425]

[not to mention I still don't think Roland is selfish].

Exactly, I see Roland's quest for the tower as an inherently selfless act, in the finest tradition of The Line of Eld, and Gunslingers. He never forgets the face of Steven Deschain, and there's a certain nobility about him which is at once barbaric, and civilized. I've always seen Roland, and gunslingers, for that matter, as knights of the highest order, of the finest character, training and courage. I do not think Roland pursues the tower because he wants to see it, although that's a bonus. I think he pursues the tower because he feels as though it's his obligation and duty. I think he would cry off of the tower in an instant if he felt he had some higher obligation which was less appealing to him.

Roland feels like it's the right thing to do.

[SpyGuy]

I actually have a new bit of fan fiction that takes up the story where it left off. Tell me what you think.

The Man In Black fled across the desert, and the Gunslinger followed.... yaddah,yaddah,yaddah....plot development...character development....something about a train....new characters......tense moments....backstory.......something about wolves......a somewhat awkward, unnecessary installment....tragedy.....climax....catharsis.... .The Man In Black fled across the desert, and the Gunslinger followed.
The End.


:excited: :clap:

[Girlystevedave]

A discussion last night got me thinking about the next loop in the story and I'm curious to hear others' thought on it.

Do you think that Roland meets up with the same ka-tet in the next loop or does he draw new people?

[Bev Vincent]

A discussion last night got me thinking about the next loop in the story and I'm curious to hear others' thought on it.

Do you think that Roland meets up with the same ka-tet in the next loop or does he draw new people?

Ka supplies what he needs, so if he has changed enough -- for example, if he doesn't drop Jake -- then perhaps he needs a different set of helpers along the way. I'm open to that possibility.

I would say, though, that his current ka-tet has been with him in the past, because they acquire new skills (shooting, riding horses) so efficiently that it's like they've done them before...and they probably have.

[Girlystevedave]

I would say, though, that his current ka-tet has been with him in the past, because they acquire new skills (shooting, riding horses) so efficiently that it's like they've done them before...and they probably have.

Good point. I've always been so focused on thinking about what may happen in the next loop that I never put much thought into whether or not they had been with him before. It does make sense considering the ease at which they learn things along the journey.

[fernandito]

The romantic in me likes the idea of the same ka-tet being drawn each time, but it's certainly a possibility that Ka chooses the Tet based on the needs of the current loop.

[Girlystevedave]

I like to think that in the next loop, Roland met up with the same ka-tet, but it happens much easier/quicker since Jake, Eddie, and Susannah were already together at the end of the story. Maybe it's just wishful thinking, but I like to imagine that he was able to draw them all at the same time on the next loop, therefore beginning their journey as Ka-tet with less resistance and struggle.

[WillDearbornThatWas]

Hi, first post!

I've had a week or so since finishing the series for the second time (so I was mentally prepared for it). I guess I'm OK with the Powers That Be teaching Roland a lesson with the loop thing. The thing which bugs me slightly is it seems to undo the saving of the Beams. If he goes through the loop multiple times, what if he fails to save the beams at one point?! Is that just it? Game over. :D

I guess I can imagine that Ka would steer things to prevent that from happening, it just seems a bit risky!